BajaNomad - Nets, Pangas & Punta Chivato

Nets, Pangas & Punta Chivato

Russ - 1-23-2011 at 06:35 PM

I guess any chance of corvina /shore fishing is pretty much history for awhile. Here are two pangas working together to set a net I'd guess to be close to a kilometer long. While the panga with the piled up net in the panga is in close holding one end the other is feeding out net. Once they set the first net they ran the other out in front of the houses from the runway to the boat ramp. If they don't pick up the net in the middle of the night as usual I'll try to show what they bring in. In the past they've only kept about one in 20 fish for market. That means all the juveniles/undersized fish are killed and the future fishery is that much more depleted. These guys and many others do this every day. This evening it was just "in my face"!
Here's the panga that is holding the end closest to shore:

The buoy in this next shot is not the net buoy but one of our boat anchor buoys. Kinda shows how close in they start.

Here's the other panga feed out almost a kilometer of net:

Here they meet up to go set the second net:

and setting the net along shore in front of the houses:

[Edited on 1-24-2011 by Russ]

Is what they are doing illegal?

Dave - 1-23-2011 at 06:41 PM

If so, why don't you make an official complaint with the proper authorities?

Russ - 1-23-2011 at 06:57 PM

I think it is legal if they have the permits. Some do. And we have complained to fisheries. The only time the authorities get upset is if they haven't received they're cut. And who's there to enforce any illegal acts? Also who do we think we are to whine about how the Mexicans manage THEIR fisheries? Hell, the government is subsidizing the coops. The coops receive motors, nets, gas & oil to help them deplete the resource. They really don't care to hear from a tourist with a fishing pole on the beach.
They must have gone in for a quick bite because I can now hear the pangas back out there running back and forth in the dark herding the fish into the nets.
But who am I to complain?????

[Edited on 1-24-2011 by Russ]

Roberto - 1-23-2011 at 07:05 PM

Who are you railing against, exactly? These guys are making a living (and hardly to Punta Chivato standards, I might add), it's pretty hard to point fingers at them, right? The ones they work for are politically connected at a high level, so it this just whining about the obvious?

vandenberg - 1-23-2011 at 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ
They really don't care to hear from a tourist with a fishing pole on the beach.
[Edited on 1-24-2011 by Russ]

Should they ?? Isn't this their livelyhood ??

Should they really give a ratsass what gringos think ?

Russ - 1-23-2011 at 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
Who are you railing against, exactly? These guys are making a living (and hardly to Punta Chivato standards, I might add), it's pretty hard to point fingers at them, right? The ones they work for are politically connected at a high level, so it this just whining about the obvious?

I'm just crying out in frustration. I don't think I mentioned comparing these fishermen to anyone but if I did I suppose I would compare what the fisheries around Cabo & Loreto are doing and the effort they make to restore their fish stocks. Which in turn bring back the tourist and their dollars. I absolutely feel for these fishermen and their way of life. It has become extremely hard for them. And right again Roberto,"The ones they work for are politically connected at a high level, so it this just whining about the obvious?". Yes.
Actually the fishermen I have talked with do care what we think. They pretty much think the same but they are fishermen and so they fish. Those fishermen that are local are not happy with those from the other side, out of work calimari fishermen, taking there livelihood away.

Roberto - 1-23-2011 at 08:14 PM

I understand. But venting, certainly not on this forum, will get you nowhere. Best you can do is get a bunch of "me too" posts.

captkw - 1-23-2011 at 09:11 PM

have ran boats from panama to alaska and some islands where im a hale,but being in baja 30 winters with a high speed little caterman that I tow all over the place and camping on beachs,I've seen this way to much!!!dont know the answer,but IT does suck donkey d--k :mad:

toneart - 1-23-2011 at 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
I understand. But venting, certainly not on this forum, will get you nowhere. Best you can do is get a bunch of "me too" posts.

I don't think it will get anyone anywhere either. But...one can't stand by and just observe and let it eat at oneself internally. The BajaNomad is a community. Most are friendly and empathetic. I think it is perfectly appropriate to vent here.

Like Russ said, it is in his face. He has to witness it in spite of the reality that the government will not do anything to change it. Everyone...you, me, Russ, the Mexican government and the fishermen themselves know what harm they are doing.

Hey Russ! "Me too"! :smug:

rebob - 1-23-2011 at 10:35 PM

We paddled through this area in November, and the same folks were using the long nets then. Before we actually paddled up to them, we started finding a great many large lisa floating on the water. Then we came upon a large pile of them in a small cove.

It appeared the fishermen were looking for target species and tossing the rest...

Cypress - 1-24-2011 at 06:30 AM

Russ, Hang in there. Appreciate your pictures and thanks for sharing your concerns. The Sea of Cortez is a beautiful body of water. I know there're a few master fisherman that know when/where/how to catch the remaining fish, but on average fishing there isn't worth the effort.

Cracking down....

mcfez - 1-24-2011 at 07:42 AM

The ocean in front of our place in San Felipe.....some one had a net day in and day out..ever since ten plus years. The net from from the beach head to outwards of the sea. Illegal. About two years ago....the "Fishnet Cops" gave firm warning not to use the nets anymore. Apparently...the "Fishnet Cops" went up and down the entire area of SF. I haven't seen the nets used since.

I believe that in time, sooner than later....the fisheries will be getting more and more protection from these fools that are overfishing.

Fact is ....Baja Govt is attempting to buy out many shrimper licenses with cash and/or exchanging the panga for a sportsman rig. A few in Puertecitos has exchanged.

If these guys in the picture fishing illegally...perhaps you can talk to the town's rep (mayor)?

Russ - 1-24-2011 at 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mcfez
If these guys in the picture fishing illegally...perhaps you can talk to the town's rep (mayor)?

Down here I'm pretty sure it is legal to net as long as the have the proper permits. Some of the co-ops are owned by the politicals as mentioned by Roberto "The ones they work for are politically connected at a high level,..." so there is little chance of change.
I watched the pangeros pull their net this morning early for about 20 minutes and they weren't taking much. Even the birds left them after awhile. I did see them pull in 3 - 20" or so halibut and a few other fish & crabs but I doubt they'll make another set in this area soon.

wilderone - 1-24-2011 at 08:42 AM

The whole thread can be summed up:

"The Sea of Cortez is a beautiful body of water. I know there're a few master fisherman that know when/where/how to catch the remaining fish, but on average fishing there isn't worth the effort."

And why is it a beautiful body of WATER [without its once abundant species]? And why is it not worth the effort any longer? That's the sentiment and those are the facts that are grieved. And don't give me the "it's their fishery" song - the fish belong to nobody, and all of the human inhabitants of earth are stewards of its health - the marine species included. Everyone who overfishes is harming the earth for everyone who lives on it. How much of the Sea of Cortez bounty is not for consumption of Mexicans? Once it is GONE, what then? Just stare at the WATER.

elfbrewery - 1-27-2011 at 08:35 PM

This topic hits me hard. I live on the Bahia Concepcion which has been raped more than once. What does the name Bahia Concepcion mean??? Well, it will be Bahia Muerte soon if the nets don't stop. Last year I saw 5 pangas pull in off Santispac. They had netted the Bahia islands for sierra. Two of the pangos were used just to hold the 1000 sierra they caught. Is it coincidence that there are no sierra this year? Last week I saw a pickup in Mulege that had a crate of fish in the back. It contained one triggerfish of about 2 lb. size and the other couple dozen were the size of a saucer and still alive. I never keep fish that are less than mature, and I fish by the rules. These guys are turning the Bahia into a fish and shellfish desert.
I understand that a big part of the market is to feed gringos, so we are as much to blaim, but it doesn't make sense to kill the golden goose.
I totally feel your pain, Russ.

HORSEPUCKY!!!

Dave - 1-27-2011 at 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elfbrewery
I understand that a big part of the market is to feed gringos, so we are as much to blaim

No one is forcing gringos to buy fish.

Or drugs. :rolleyes:

Cypress - 1-28-2011 at 05:45 AM

Undersized triggerfish. Looks like they're scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Everything is just fine in the Sea

mcfez - 1-28-2011 at 06:45 AM

You folks here are so drama! Next you be saying there will be fish farms some day

Russ - 1-28-2011 at 06:46 AM

elfbrewery, we're not along in our frustration. Some here have purposed that the gringos are to some extent responsible for the decline in fish populations. There are so few gringos in this area that I doubt we make a significant difference.
Here's a photo from yesterday. This is a beach set. You can see the buoys on the other side of their boat where it comes to shore.

net boat.jpg - 45kB

Russ - 1-28-2011 at 06:57 AM

Sorry the buoys aren't very visible in that shot I'll try another shot and download it through Photo bucket and see if it's mo-better

Pescador - 1-28-2011 at 01:45 PM

Well, Wilderone probably summed up the answer to this dilemna and we should go get our fishing brothers, hold hands on the beach and sing numerous verses of Kumbaya. When they finally see the light, I am sure they will revert to other ways of making a living.
The first pictures were taken of Ramon Ojeda and his son with another person who fishes with them frequently. Even his brother, who I know very well, gets upset with the net fishing because it destroys fish that are not even targeted species, but Ramon has been doing this for a long time and that is how he makes his living and feeds his family. For the most part the moralizing and talk of sustainability is just wasted thought process and provides no practical solutions to the problem (unless one wants to learn 5 verses to Kumbaya in Spanish).
I live in the little town where these guys originate from and spend a lot of time with them. One of the little practical things that I have been able to accomplish is to fish almost every day with Ramon's brother, Rigo, and help him catch enough fish with a line and hook to make a decent living. From that small begining, we now see several other people who have joined in the coop that is owned by Rigo and his Father and we try to help them cast the lead weights they need, buy good quality line in bulk from the US, strict usage of circle hooks so that the fish that do not make it to the boat have a good chance of survival, and sharing information amongst ourselves as to what is working at any given time. In addition to this I started teaching rodbuilding and reel repair to the group. Now we get questions from Ramon about the fact that his brother seems to be doing better with a line and hook than he is able to do with the nets on a long term basis.
So I do not know what other practical and simple solutions are available but I am sure that there are small things that can be done and accomplish a lot. What if, for example, 10 or 20 gringos who really wanted to change some things were to form some kind of company that could build magical yellowtail lures or whatever.
Anyone that has spent any time down here knows that the political system is corrupt and does not get much accomplished in terms of changing anything. But that is a given and something that does not lend itself to change, but if you take into account all of the given factors like families that need to make a living, corrupt politicians, ineffective enforcement, dwindling sea life, and on and on, it seems to me that there must be some thinkers out there who could do better than "Kumbaya".
Finally, the problem may take care of itself in very short order. There are places along the area from Santa Rosalia to Loreto that are in the worst shape in terms of fish populations that I have ever seen. The loss is very apparent to divers that frequent the area as well as fishermen and while a few big schools of yellowtail come through, the base populations of Cabrilla, Gold Spot Bass, and Grouper are the lowest I have ever seen them and what I have observed is that when the guys are unable to catch anything after a couple of days, they sit around and wait for positive reports before spending the gas to go out.

Cypress - 1-28-2011 at 02:41 PM

Listen when Pescador speaks. He's a fisherman and know what he's talking about

flyfishinPam - 1-28-2011 at 04:16 PM

Well Russ’ frustration hasn’t been lost on me. I certainly know that those guys need to make a living but at the same I know they’re killing their own future. And if you talk to any of them they know it too. But what needs to happen is that they need to all get together and discuss all of this without outside manipulation. It just needs to get started. There are so many things that divide us in the fishing sectors especially now with these elections and I’m hoping once the dust settles we can get started again. It just takes a few people to talk about what’s wrong and what’s right and put their heads together to come up with viable solutions. All of us have good ideas all of us have different experiences all of us have made mistakes and now it’s time for us to discuss them and learn from them. So no Russ this hasn’t been a waste of time you’re venting is completely understandable but rest assured given time and patience we will gain control of our future again.

I’m also in a cooperative that works commercial fishing. I am trying to connect us directly with the buyers of our product, put the consumer directly to our product as much as possible. from what I am seeing there is an enormous potential of variety of product, seasons, markets and methods of extraction. I know it’s been tested and proven in other places that proper management of fisheries will allow for the highest output potential and benefits to the local residents. What I think consumers can start doing to help is find out where your food comes from find out as much about the things you consume as you possibly can because the more information you learn The more you’re spending can benefit those who produce it directly. once the producers are benefiting directly from the fish of their labor their living standards will rise and they will find that they do not have to extract as much in order to make the same amount of money. Of course legal boundaries and enforcement always helps too.

Cypress - 1-28-2011 at 05:14 PM

There's always hope, but hope isn't a plan. There's no market for undersized triggerfish, they're probably feeding the fishermans family. Who's paying for the fuel etc.? :?:

elfbrewery - 1-28-2011 at 08:10 PM

Economics always wins and that goes for all sides. It is a difficult problem. The future is now, though. If some areas, like Bahia Concepcion, could really get protection to only sportsfishing,... but that's a pipe dream. What you see on your plate at the end of the day is what drives everyone. However, what is going on over at Bahia Ascunsion with the conservation effort there? Is it working?? I know I would pay a significant percentage more for my license if I knew the bay were protected. If the bay dies, nothing will attract other (desireable) fish. We'll also miss the dolphins, whales, sea lions, ... Tourism will die, since many people come here to fish. Come to Baja and not get a fish taco??
Okay, I'll quit while I'm behind.

BajaRat - 1-28-2011 at 08:26 PM

This is gonna need a montage

Cardon Man - 1-29-2011 at 07:56 AM

Last year some friends of mine ( Mexican nationals ) swam out, navy seal style, and pulled a legally set gill net onto the beach. They made ill fated attempts to release a number of still living roosterfish and destroyed the remaining net. While I would not have the huevos to do it...It was an act of civil disobedience I applauded.

mcfez - 1-29-2011 at 08:15 AM

Change is needed regardless of their jobs in the fisheries. The concept of fish till there's no more ......has arrived more or less already.

What will the fishermen do when the catches bottom out ? Forced regulation is the only answer. It's working on the western coast of the USA. Alaska has regulations on their crabbing as for another example. Fact is....many countries are taking control of their fisheries.

Years ago, the Lumberjacks of the western coastal states were being shut down....due to international interest in saving the majestic Redwood trees. Too late in the most part.....but the lumberjacks simple got into other fields of work. As far as the Mexican fisherman....I have a have a answer for his long term employment. ......regulation.

Yeah....I know I am going to get a lot of crapola from my fellow Bn's here for my outlook.

Russ - 1-29-2011 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cardon Man
Last year some friends of mine ( Mexican nationals ) swam out, navy seal style, and pulled a legally set gill net onto the beach. They made ill fated attempts to release a number of still living roosterfish and destroyed the remaining net. While I would not have the huevos to do it...It was an act of civil disobedience I applauded.

there a post a year or so ago where a Nomad just happened by a net that was stacked up on shore and someone had poured acetone on it. :yes:

Cypress - 1-29-2011 at 11:34 AM

Empty nets, empty fuel tanks, and empty pockets will be the deciding factor. No profit, no nets. From all indications, at least in the Mulege area, it's reaching that point.

DENNIS - 1-29-2011 at 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ
there a post a year or so ago where a Nomad just happened by a net that was stacked up on shore and someone had poured acetone on it. :yes:

I think that was one of Osprey's fantasy stories. It was a few years back and a good read at that.

Doug/Vamonos - 1-31-2011 at 11:30 AM

Do what YOU can do. Don't over-fish. Obey daily catch limits. Only keep what you can eat. NEVER order fish at a restaurant and NEVER buy fish at a grocery store. I walked past the butcher case at Albertsons yesterday and I couldn't believe the amount of fish and shellfish in the display case. Much of it didn't look too appealing and would probably be in the trash can a couple days later. Not to mention the frozen food section with tiny fillets of mahi mahi and tuna from all over the Pacific and the smallest lobster tails I've ever seen, both Atlantic and Pacific. Tons of it. And that is in my local grocery store. Probably duplicated in tens of thousands of grocery stores across the country every day. Just don't buy it and educate others you know to do the same. If you want to eat fish go out and catch your own. And don't overfish in Baja so that you can bring home pounds of fillets for your friends and neighbors. Easy for me because I can't catch fish anyways?!? End of lecture.

[Edited on 1-31-2011 by Doug/Vamonos]

[Edited on 1-31-2011 by Doug/Vamonos]

woody with a view - 1-31-2011 at 11:34 AM

you had me until that next to last sentence. why do you think i bring the vacuum sealer? i get my limits and it freezes well, for up to 2-3 years. we just ate the last sashimi yellewtail from 3 octobers ago and it tasted just like it came out of the water.

[Edited on 1-31-2011 by woody with a view]

elfbrewery - 1-31-2011 at 11:36 AM

I'm thinking of conducting a straw poll here in our community along the Bahia Concepcion to see if people here would boycott, for a minimum of one season, any seafood caught by net (fish, shrimp, swimming scallops) in the bay. I don't expect a majority vote for the boycott, but what percentage of gringo boycotters do you think would make a significant impact?

woody with a view - 1-31-2011 at 11:47 AM

how do you propose catching a shrimp to stuff into my tortilla?

elfbrewery - 1-31-2011 at 01:45 PM

Make sure they are caught in the open sea not where all life begins (La Bahia Concepcion)

The answer to these issues....

mcfez - 1-31-2011 at 07:32 PM

Global fish consumption hits record high

Russ - 2-1-2011 at 12:30 PM

"The global consumption of fish has hit a record high, reaching an average of 17kg per person, a UN report has shown.

Fisheries and aquaculture supplied the world with about 145m tonnes in 2009, providing about 16% of the population's animal protein intake."
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12334859

I AM a CAVEMaN...

GrOUper-GAr - 2-1-2011 at 04:00 PM

There are always new Baja enthusiasts checking out these Nomad forums for the 1st time. And For many new baja travelers, the waters may still(even to this day) appear to be busting/Golden with life.
(translate: the Sea has little worries).
In fact, a couple fisherman pulling a net on a remote Baja coast will often be romanticized, a rustic throw back to a simpler time. (unfortunatly, even fishing in Italy can not be romanticized anymore)
Many of you guys(& Gals) are 'Hands on' baja lovers. You've been living or charging it in Baja for years. Even a Baja Jones'r like me, cant get this daily Mar!NaTioN.
Russ, your photos & this ongoing discussion are not "whining about the Obvious". This Talk is informative, educational and necessary. "Obvious" only to a lucky few (most people barely know of the Baja you Nomads cherish).

--Quick story--
in my youth, LaJolla was zig zag'd w/gill nets.
We measured EVERYTHING... for 8 years, i NEVER caught a yellowtail over 28 inches ! they literally stopped @ 27-1/2"(the sized we deemed that would fit through the nets). Homeguard yellows in the 80's? never heard of such mumblings. White sea bass and Unicorns? totally thinned out. (yes, every once in awhile a freak would find its way onto somebodys line, but you get the picture)

Now, I Don'T pretend to know the answer to this Cortez Banzai overfishing dilemma...
because, Like I said,
'I AM a CAVEMaN, the modern ways frighten & confuss me...'
But
"There is one thing I DO know...":
It took the People to get fired up,
the People to go to the polls,
and the PeoPLe to get rid of the gill nets in our back yard.
(Prop 132, 1990 ballot measure that bans the use of gill nets in Southern California coastal waters / passed 55% to 45%)
thanks for the photos.
-GrOUPer

Doug/Vamonos - 2-1-2011 at 05:31 PM

Russ: That's exactly my point. You can go to any town across the USA and probably find a sushi joint, or a seafood restaurant, or fresh/frozen seafood at a grocery store. Historically that just didn't happen. You used to eat what is grown/harvested locally and in season. Now we get fresh seafood from all around the world and the impact is that fisheries everywhere are being depleted because people stuff their faces with all-you-can-eat sushi for $9.95. And I'm sure the expanding waistlines of our fellow countrymen will only make this situation worse.

And speaking of local fishing conditions since the removal of gill nets. Geez...I remember 20 years ago how rare it was to catch yellows on overnight boats to Catalina. If they can control the nets in Baja the fish will return. Maybe some day.

elfbrewery - 2-3-2011 at 12:06 PM

I just conducted a straw poll as to whether people would boycott any seafood netted in the Bahia Concepcion. The bahia is supposedly protected, but shrimping and other uses of netting occur. The pescadores say they have permits to do all this stuff. Some folks here eat only what they catch themselves, some don't eat seafood. That all aside, I asked my question to the folks on the beach in our community.
I must say I was happily surprised by the result. 35 people voted for the boycott, 5 voted against, 1 abstained. There could be errors in that people didn't understand the question "Would you boycott (for at least one season, i.e., October to May) the purchase of any seafood NETTED in the Bahia Concepcion?" I would have to rephrase it and say, "would you decline purchasing seafood (shrimp, fish, swimming scallops) that you knew was NETTED in the bay?" I would ask that the participants not tell me their answers, but I would get, "*&^% no, I wouldn't buy any!" and similar responses, so I don't know that the no's were really no's. But I was expecting a lot more of them than I received (no, I'd buy the seafood anyway, because ...).
Anyway, at least I can say that people here do not want netting to continue and are willing to not purchase the results of netting. Will this help anyone who may be in a position to act on this info??

mcfez - 2-3-2011 at 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elfbrewery
I just conducted a straw poll as to whether people would boycott any seafood netted in the Bahia Concepcion. The bahia is supposedly protected, but shrimping and other uses of netting occur. The pescadores say they have permits to do all this stuff. Some folks here eat only what they catch themselves, some don't eat seafood. That all aside, I asked my question to the folks on the beach in our community.
I must say I was happily surprised by the result. 35 people voted for the boycott, 5 voted against, 1 abstained. There could be errors in that people didn't understand the question "Would you boycott (for at least one season, i.e., October to May) the purchase of any seafood NETTED in the Bahia Concepcion?" I would have to rephrase it and say, "would you decline purchasing seafood (shrimp, fish, swimming scallops) that you knew was NETTED in the bay?" I would ask that the participants not tell me their answers, but I would get, "*&^% no, I wouldn't buy any!" and similar responses, so I don't know that the no's were really no's. But I was expecting a lot more of them than I received (no, I'd buy the seafood anyway, because ...).
Anyway, at least I can say that people here do not want netting to continue and are willing to not purchase the results of netting. Will this help anyone who may be in a position to act on this info??

Thats good....but...

Will these folks really boycott when the time comes? Will that vacationing family not order shrimp?

We used to have a saying:
Put up or shut up.

elfbrewery - 2-3-2011 at 04:31 PM

I know what you're saying. I wonder about that, too. However, I think that because we have the right sentiment and the big majority of it that even with a lot of slip ups, lies from vendors, etc. there would still be an impact.
As for vacationing families, I cannot speak for them. Most of the folks I asked are here for months.
Never-the-less, it would be nice to put together a plan, but is there a sympathetic ear in our area that has any pull?

Pescador - 2-5-2011 at 08:41 AM

Russ, this is going to make your day. The following post came from David Jones who is a premier outfitter in La Paz.

pargon
Registered User

Name: david jones
Vessel: cabo 216, christina
Location: mexico
Job:sport fishing
Posts: 427 Images: 18

No More Nets?!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have just returned from a trip up the Pacific Coast to San Carlos, Lopez Mateo, and to my secret fishing hole. Talking with several different friends along the way who are local commercial fishermen they all mentioned that there will be no more nets allowed federally in Mexico. They said that they have been informed that as commercial licenses expire (all of them are of 2 year duration) no new licenses will be issued for net fishing. Theoretically this means shrimp nets, gill nets, seines, all of them. while I'm sure that it will take awhile to get rid of them, and the locals who don't have permits will take longer, this is a major step in the right direction. They said that they will still be allowed to net live bait for sport fishing but nothing else. While the long liners still persist I applaud this apparent move by the feds, and eagerly await the results of this change in a long time problem situation. I haven't been able to google anything about this, but is different commercial guys, 150 miles apart, are all saying this it must have some substance. While they were a little nervous about the future of their income stream they were all quick to point out that it is the right thing to do, and will help the fishery overall.
__________________
"The errors of the wise man make the rules for the fool"

Cypress - 2-5-2011 at 08:47 AM

Pescador, Thanks. This news will make a lot of peoples day. :yes:

Russ - 2-5-2011 at 09:04 AM

I'm in TOTAL shock! :!:

One of those, "I'll believe it when I see it", things. Please keep us informed as info comes your way.
Since the wind has died down to around 5 to 10 mph all but three barcos have gone into the bay to rape and pillage.
Here's two:

[Edited on 2-5-2011 by Russ]

Pescador's note

mcfez - 2-5-2011 at 10:00 AM

Wow! That is good stuff to see happening.

Cypress - 2-5-2011 at 11:26 AM

The fishing is good in the Sea of Cortez, but the catching is not so good. The nets are already coming up empty, otherwise they'd continue. If enforced, there'll be some happy fishermen in 5 or 6 yrs.

mcfez - 2-5-2011 at 11:34 AM

Controlled fishing works. Any doubts, read this:

http://195.97.36.231/acrobatfiles/MAPDocAcrobatfiles/SPA/EffectsFishingEng.pdf

flyfishinPam - 2-5-2011 at 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
Russ, this is going to make your day. The following post came from David Jones who is a premier outfitter in La Paz.

pargon
Registered User

Name: david jones
Vessel: cabo 216, christina
Location: mexico
Job:sport fishing
Posts: 427 Images: 18

No More Nets?!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have just returned from a trip up the Pacific Coast to San Carlos, Lopez Mateo, and to my secret fishing hole. Talking with several different friends along the way who are local commercial fishermen they all mentioned that there will be no more nets allowed federally in Mexico. They said that they have been informed that as commercial licenses expire (all of them are of 2 year duration) no new licenses will be issued for net fishing. Theoretically this means shrimp nets, gill nets, seines, all of them. while I'm sure that it will take awhile to get rid of them, and the locals who don't have permits will take longer, this is a major step in the right direction. They said that they will still be allowed to net live bait for sport fishing but nothing else. While the long liners still persist I applaud this apparent move by the feds, and eagerly await the results of this change in a long time problem situation. I haven't been able to google anything about this, but is different commercial guys, 150 miles apart, are all saying this it must have some substance. While they were a little nervous about the future of their income stream they were all quick to point out that it is the right thing to do, and will help the fishery overall.
__________________
"The errors of the wise man make the rules for the fool"

a few years ago underwater spear fishing with compressors became illegal but they still do it right under our noses and our complaints go unheard.

on the net banning I'll believe it when I see it
I have a sinking feeling that netting permits will continue but they will be monopolized by large entities and the local guys will be out of the loop.

Cypress - 2-5-2011 at 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam

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Probably so. :no:

Joelt - 2-6-2011 at 05:58 AM

I don't know what they could do but I would think that the local fishermen around Russ would try to do something about the non local comercial boats. They come in and don't leave until they have taken everything. I find this more disturbing than the local guys using nets.

Cypress - 2-6-2011 at 07:09 AM

The visiting shrimpers are the least destructive. Trawling speed, net structure, and lead/chain lines set-up can make a big difference. Slow trawling produces less of a pressure wave, catches more shrimp and fewer fish. Turtle excluder devices allow turtles to escape. The local gill nets fished 24/7, 12 months of the year and the seine boats are the real culprits.

msteve1014 - 2-6-2011 at 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam

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Probably so. :no:

And the local guys will keep netting, legal or not. They need the food and money. What else can they do?

Pescador - 2-6-2011 at 08:45 AM

I do not think for a minute that the non-issuance of permits will have much of an effect, except that there seems to be a small movement underfoot that might be capitalized on. Instead of sitting around wringing hands and crying in the beer, there seems to be some tendency toward shutting down at least some of the netting which is where this discussion started. The East Cape has been very effective in ridding themselves of Gill and hand set seines because the commercial skippers started to take things in their own hands and they knew they could not call up the "Game Warden" to enforce the law. The Marine Park in Loreto seems to be making some headway with their enforcement.

I doubt that any of the local guys in the Santa Roslia area even know what a permit is so you are right that it might not have much of an influence, but look how long it took for the locals to change enough to the point that most of them avoid turtles that they come across in the open water.

So, if everyone watches the developments and does their little creative part, there is at least some hope that change might happen. The most destructive type of netting I have ever witnessed down here is during the spring when the yellowtail are trying to get closer to shore to lay eggs and the netters have learned how to surround them when they come close and then they put divers overboard to move the nets over the rocks until everything is tied in a small area. The year before last I witnessed hundreds of tons of yellowtail captured in this manner. Last year, because of the water temps this spring capture never really developed. This year we have so few yellowtail showing up, that I suspect that it may miss again this year.

elfbrewery - 2-6-2011 at 04:09 PM

Pescador,
I have questions about the pangeros who gill net fish. Do they have quotas and limits? Are they supposed to fish only for their families or may they sell to local restaurants or to the fish market (trucks)? What is the understanding as to their behavior? Is it legal? Should we help them or hinder them?
I'm just a confused, frustrated kayak fisher waiting for the fish to come back.
Thanks.

woody with a view - 2-6-2011 at 04:17 PM

prolly part of the cooperativo. they keep what they want for themselves and sell the rest to the market-maker cooperativo. not anything wrong with it as i see it, at least where we go. i have a different opinion of taking every last fish when you make a set, though.

10 years ago or more now, we watched over the course of a few days some guys proceed to fill gunney sacks with abalone. right down to the ones that were the diameter of a beer can. they seemed to want to take everything. the local boys showed up too late and said that these guys came from the mainland. that they were coyotes....

there needs to be a better way...

Pescador - 2-7-2011 at 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by elfbrewery
Pescador,
I have questions about the pangeros who gill net fish. Do they have quotas and limits? Are they supposed to fish only for their families or may they sell to local restaurants or to the fish market (trucks)? What is the understanding as to their behavior? Is it legal? Should we help them or hinder them?
I'm just a confused, frustrated kayak fisher waiting for the fish to come back.
Thanks.

Shari or someone from Asuncion has a better picture of what goes on at Asuncion and the other side of the sea. It is a different picture over there altogether and the cooperatives are really trying to manage the resources. During the right times of the year, the sportfishing is very good and probably improving a little every year. Because the sportfishing is so strong on the East Cape and Cabos areas, they are controlling the nets in a much more effective manner.

In the Santa Rosalia area, there is very little control, with some small amounts of cooperatives, which means, as Russ pointed out, that they get some help from the government with buying motors, boats, and equipment like nets. The cooperative members sell their fish to one of the wholesale buyers who issue them a factura. A certain percentage goes to the fisheries or Conapesca, and the wholesale buyer usually has fronted gasoline so that expense comes out too ( which is like buying your gas from the company store). So, it is pretty much up to the individual fisherman whether he uses nets or hook and line. And that means no limit on catch except for market forces. When the yellowtail were close to the island two years ago and very plentiful, the market dropped to 5 or 6 pesos per kilo, which meant a good net fisherman might make $2500 Pesos before expenses of gasoline, boat expense, net care and expense, other fishermen in the boat, etc., etc.

The situation on the Sea of Cortez side is pretty bleak from the standpoint that you have too many hands in the pot. We get commercial netters and seiners from the mainland that harvest most of the baitfish like sardines and mackeral, Shrimpers who drag chain nets all over the bottom and leave a wake of dead ocean when they pull the nets, local gill and seine nets that kill massive amounts of spawning yellowtail along with sierra and corvina, and anybody with a boat who has a handline and a few hooks that brings in anything that is marketable. And of course, we get a few pistoleros who go out at night with compressors and lights who kill everything available at night when the fish are most vulnerable.

This year has been, overall, a terrible year for yellowtail in our area and the squid did not show at all, so the fishermen are not out everyday because they can not afford to just burn up the gas like their gringo counterparts. At this point I truly do not know if it is just the year or if we have finally reached the critical point in populations and only time will tell since the yellowtail populations show remarkable elasticity in recovering if given half a chance.

Russ - 2-7-2011 at 08:21 AM

After reading Jim's report above I'm hoping perhaps the lack of fish may regulate the commercial interest. I think as the fishing pressure decreases the stocks may start a recovery and if regulations are put in place and enforced the fisheries will make a rebound.
The sad part of all this is when you see the huge number of pangas in this area (Mulege to Santa Rosalia) and imagine that each boat supports a family or two. When the squid industry was booming here it brought hundreds of fishermen from all over Baja and the mainland and they have made their home here now. What will they do? There really isn't anywhere for them to go or work they can transition into. If you had to feed your family would you turn to an illegal opportunity to make a few pesos to put some food on the table ( prob don't even have a table)?
It is a very hard time here now and my heart goes out to those in need of work. I moved down here because I really admire the Mexican people and their culture, friendly, hardworking folks that will give a stranger the shirt off their back and ask nothing in return. I don't have any idea how things will come out during the next few years as changes come about.

Pescador - 2-7-2011 at 01:57 PM

Russ, the mine seems to be changing a lot of things, in our town at least, as quite a few people, fishermen included, have gone to work at Boleo Mine and for the fortunate ones that may mean a regular paycheck for the next 10 years or so. Certainly the guys who work at the mine at San Marcos Island have enjoyed a pretty good lifestyle for a number of years.