BajaNomad - Operation "Fast and Furious" ...ATF agent: "I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico"

Operation "Fast and Furious" ...ATF agent: "I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico"

Woooosh - 3-3-2011 at 05:34 PM

If true, today we became the enemy of the Mexican people. Everyone will and ought to be furious. I'll bet this didn't come up in Calderon and Obama's chat about guns today. These agents were ordered to watched the flow of guns into Baja and Mexico. One agent e-mailed the consequences: "958 killed in March 2010 ... most violent month since 2005. The same e-mail notes: "Our subjects purchased 359 firearms during March alone," including "numerous Barrett .50 caliber rifles."

On Dec. 14, 2010, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was gunned down. "They said, 'Did you hear about the border patrol agent?' And I said, 'Yeah.' And they said 'Well it was one of the Fast and Furious guns.' If the idea was to track the guns after they crossed into Mexico- how was that supposed to work?

CBS Story: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/03/eveningnews/main20...

Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico
ATF agent says "Fast and Furious" program let guns "walk" into hands of Mexican drug cartels with aim of tracking and breaking a big case.

(CBS News) WASHINGTON - Federal agent John Dodson says what he was asked to do was beyond belief. He was intentionally letting guns go to Mexico? "Yes ma'am," Dodson told CBS News. "The agency was."

An Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms senior agent assigned to the Phoenix office in 2010, Dodson's job is to stop gun trafficking across the border. Instead, he says he was ordered to sit by and watch it happen.

Investigators call the tactic letting guns "walk." In this case, walking into the hands of criminals who would use them in Mexico and the United States.

Dodson's bosses say that never happened. Now, he's risking his job to go public. "I'm boots on the ground in Phoenix, telling you we've been doing it every day since I've been here," he said. "Here I am. Tell me I didn't do the things that I did. Tell me you didn't order me to do the things I did. Tell me it didn't happen. Now you have a name on it. You have a face to put with it. Here I am. Someone now, tell me it didn't happen."

Agent Dodson and other sources say the gun walking strategy was approved all the way up to the Justice Department. The idea was to see where the guns ended up, build a big case and take down a cartel. And it was all kept secret from Mexico.

ATF named the case "Fast and Furious."

Surveillance video obtained by CBS News shows suspected drug cartel suppliers carrying boxes of weapons to their cars at a Phoenix gun shop. The long boxes shown in the video being loaded in were AK-47-type assault rifles.

So it turns out ATF not only allowed it - they videotaped it.

Documents show the inevitable result: The guns that ATF let go began showing up at crime scenes in Mexico. And as ATF stood by watching thousands of weapons hit the streets... the Fast and Furious group supervisor noted the escalating Mexican violence.

One e-mail noted, "958 killed in March 2010 ... most violent month since 2005." The same e-mail notes: "Our subjects purchased 359 firearms during March alone," including "numerous Barrett .50 caliber rifles."

Dodson feels that ATF was partly to blame for the escalating violence in Mexico and on the border. "I even asked them if they could see the correlation between the two," he said. "The more our guys buy, the more violence we're having down there."

Senior agents including Dodson told CBS News they confronted their supervisors over and over. Their answer, according to Dodson, was, "If you're going to make an omelette, you've got to break some eggs."

There was so much opposition to the gun walking, that an ATF supervisor issued an e-mail noting a "schism" among the agents. "Whether you care or not people of rank and authority at HQ are paying close attention to this case...we are doing what they envisioned.... If you don't think this is fun you're in the wrong line of work... Maybe the Maricopa County jail is hiring detention officers and you can get $30,000 ... to serve lunch to inmates..."

"We just knew it wasn't going to end well. There's just no way it could," Dodson said. On Dec. 14, 2010, Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was gunned down. Dodson got the bad news from a colleague. According to Dodson, "They said, 'Did you hear about the border patrol agent?' And I said, 'Yeah.' And they said 'Well it was one of the Fast and Furious guns.' There's not really much you can say after that."

Two assault rifles ATF had let go nearly a year before were found at Terry's murder. Dodson said, "I felt guilty. I mean it's crushing. I don't know how to explain it."

Sen. Grassley began investigating after his office spoke to Dodson and a dozen other ATF sources -- all telling the same story. The response was "practically zilch," Grassley said. "From the standpoint that documents we want - we have not gotten them. I think it's a case of stonewalling."

Dodson said he hopes that speaking out helps Terry's family. They haven't been told much of anything about his murder - or where the bullet came from. "First of all, I'd tell them that I'm sorry. Second of all, I'd tell them I've done everything that I can for them to get the truth," Dodson said. "After this, I don't know what else I can do. But I hope they get it."

Dodson said they never did take down a drug cartels. However, he said thousands of Fast and Furious weapons are still out there and will be claiming victims on both sides of the border for years to come.

Late tonight, the ATF said it will convene a panel to look into its national firearms trafficking strategy. But it refused to comment specifically on Sharyl's report. Statement from Kenneth E. Melson, Acting Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives: "The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) will ask a multi-disciplinary panel of law enforcement professionals to review the bureau's current firearms trafficking strategies employed by field division managers and special agents. This review will enable ATF to maximize its effectiveness when undertaking complex firearms trafficking investigations and prosecutions. It will support the goals of ATF to stem the illegal flow of firearms to Mexico and combat firearms trafficking in the United States."

[Edited on 3-4-2011 by Woooosh]

NOT an accurate statement

Dave - 3-3-2011 at 06:13 PM

"I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico"

It is the Mexican government who lets guns into Mexico.

Just as our government lets illegals and drugs into the U.S.

[Edited on 3-4-2011 by Dave]

Woooosh - 3-3-2011 at 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
"I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico"

It is the Mexican government who lets guns into Mexico.

Just as our government lets illegals and drugs into the U.S.

[Edited on 3-4-2011 by Dave]

That's all we got- "Mexico had the door open?" It's not enough imho. Really- that's the best defense we have for providing the cartel with some 1,500 high-powered weapons that even killed our own agents? How about the disregard for Mexican and expat civilian lives, the destruction of their tourist industry that is taking down our Baja economy?

Sorry...

Dave - 3-3-2011 at 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Really- that's the best defense we have for providing the cartel with some 1,500 high-powered weapons that even killed our own agents? How about the disregard for Mexican and expat civilian lives, the destruction of their tourist industry that is taking down our Baja economy?

But we don't need a defense. Everything that's happening in Mexico is Mexico's doing. They are their own masters.

Now, if you could prove some official clandestine effort to smuggle weapons into Mexico I'd support your position 100%.

JESSE - 3-3-2011 at 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
Everything that's happening in Mexico is Mexico's doing. They are their own masters.

Jajajajajaja!!! thats probably one of your most innacurate statements ever Dave.

BajaBruceFan - 3-3-2011 at 10:15 PM

Quote:

So by the same logic, the drugs that find their across the US border are 100% America's fault and the Mexican cartels carry none of the blame?

Can't have it both ways....

Dave - 3-4-2011 at 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Jajajajajaja!!! thats probably one of your most innacurate statements ever Dave.

I respect your expertise.

Prove me wrong.

Correct

Dave - 3-4-2011 at 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBruceFan
So by the same logic, the drugs that find their across the US border are 100% America's fault and the Mexican cartels carry none of the blame?

Barry A. - 3-4-2011 at 09:09 AM

Bottom line---------Dave is mostly correct.

Rule of economics---------whenever there is "demand", some humans will seek to exploit and satisfy that demand, for profit.

All participants are "to blame".

That's my take, anyway.

Barry

toneart - 3-4-2011 at 11:18 AM

Quote:

Dave,

The ATF agents are saying they were ordered to look the other way and so they did...and a U.S. border agent died because of it (not to mention all the tragic deaths in Mexico that occured because of these smuggled weapons.

That directly implicates not only the ATF agency but our whole government policy in our so called War On Drugs..

There are no benevolent angels here. The blame lies on official and unofficial government policy on both sides of the border.

The Cartels are involved in a dirty business. Why wouldn't they gladly receive the present of smuggled guns that were enabled by U.S. policy? Hello?

War is an industry. Everyone involved in arms manufacturing and distribution, as well as the politicians makes money!

DENNIS - 3-4-2011 at 11:25 AM

I saw this agent in an interview on TV last night. Although he won't be doing much possitive for the unemployment figures, I think we'll be seeing a lot of him in the near future. I hope so, anyway.
These allegations are sickening. What are these rogue agencies thinking?

toneart - 3-4-2011 at 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I saw this agent in an interview on TV last night. Although he won't be doing much possitive for the unemployment figures, I think we'll be seeing a lot of him in the near future. I hope so, anyway.
These allegations are sickening. What are these rogue agencies thinking?

I wonder how high up this goes? :mad:

DENNIS - 3-4-2011 at 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I wonder how high up this goes? :mad:

There's only an uber-bloated government standing between your question and an honest answer.

How can an agency, in this day and age, commit such an egregious act and expect it not to surface? Everybody involved knew it was wrong.

tripledigitken - 3-4-2011 at 11:38 AM

We will all be watching this story to see how it all plays out.

Arms trade is a huge worldwide industry. The cartels have big money to spend and are looking for the best deal. They will get the arms they want at the cheapest price whether that is from the USA, or elsewhere.

Arms need to go to Mexico, but not to the Cartels, IMO

Ken

djh - 3-4-2011 at 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBruceFan
But we don't need a defense. Everything that's happening in Mexico is Mexico's doing. They are their own masters.

Now, if you could prove some official clandestine effort to smuggle weapons into Mexico I'd support your position 100%.

So by the same logic, the drugs that find their across the US border are 100% America's fault and the Mexican cartels carry none of the blame?

Can't have it both ways....

Blame ? Blame a country ? Hmmmm . . . . seems a bit generalized, vague, and not helpful or productive. The individuals involved should be held accountable.... PERSONAL responsibility and accountability is paramount - regardless of how far up (or down) the chain it goes.

MANY individuals are links in this chain: the users / consumers, the street level dealers, their suppliers, the manufacturers and distributors, the cartels, those in cahoots (however large or small) with the cartels, and any officials / politicians who are benefitting in any way from this scourge.

I realize that is a very large group of individuals . . . (huge) and that is why this is such a huge, multinational problem.

Easy on each other, Nomads.... we're all paddling this (sinking) canoe together.

djh

DENNIS - 3-4-2011 at 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by djh
Easy on each other, Nomads.... we're all paddling this (sinking) canoe together.

djh

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/26980116_3801b2e59c.jpg

Barry A. - 3-4-2011 at 12:03 PM

As you all know, I normally defend Law Enforcement, but even I admit this appears to be "beyond the pale"--------and I echo, "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING"???? Like Brenda in the program THE CLOSER, it would appear that they wanted to "make a case", and to heck with the unintended (but obvious) consequences. Not good.

Barry

toneart - 3-4-2011 at 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
As you all know, I normally defend Law Enforcement, but even I admit this appears to be "beyond the pale"--------and I echo, "WHAT WERE THEY THINKING"???? Like Brenda in the program THE CLOSER, it would appear that they wanted to "make a case", and to heck with the unintended (but obvious) consequences. Not good.

Barry

Yep! If you put the bait in the mousetrap without setting the spring mechanism, the mouse will just get fatter.

Pretty soon the mice will be demanding better cheese!

Dave - 3-4-2011 at 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
The ATF agents are saying they were ordered to look the other way and so they did...and a U.S. border agent died because of it (not to mention all the tragic deaths in Mexico that occured because of these smuggled weapons.

The agent was murdered because he was in Mexico, unchaperoned and unarmed. If it hadn't been this particular weapon it would have been another.

And, no U.S. agency smuggled these weapons into Mexico. I'm betting it was all Mexican citizens.

Cypress - 3-4-2011 at 12:42 PM

The good ole' "blame the USA" crowd is dancing on this guys grave.

Dave - 3-4-2011 at 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
The good ole' "blame the USA" crowd is dancing on this guys grave.

So...Who's fault is it that illegal drugs are pouring across our border and millions of Americans are using them...

The boogeyman?

Cypress - 3-4-2011 at 01:25 PM

Look in the mirror, you are the boogeyman.

Good Intentions Gone BAD !

MrBillM - 3-4-2011 at 01:52 PM

Reading the story today in the L.A. [Socialist] Times, OF COURSE, they (the ATF) "Allowed" the guns to Go Into Mexico. After all, their stated intention was to track the weapons, BUT prevent them from crossing the border. At which, they failed miserably having more than half go missing.

Another example of "Don't TRUST the Feds to do the Job right". WHATEVER that job is.

WHY would we want them to do MORE, Including your Health-care.

bajajazz - 3-5-2011 at 10:42 AM

Let's see, now. Gun shops in Arizona make major bucks selling assault weapons to drug dealers and don't want their business interrupted. So they pay off the biggies at ATF to look the other way. ATF big shots justify their failure to do their job as part of some grand strategy to bring down a cartel. "Strategy" doesn't work -- American agent gunned down.

Why am I not surprised?

Barry A. - 3-5-2011 at 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajazz
So they (gun dealers) pay off the biggies at ATF to look the other way.

-----any proof, or references to back that statement up???

Barry

Cypress - 3-5-2011 at 11:31 AM

The US/ Mexico border areas have become killing grounds. How many more lives will be lost before pot is legalized? One question. Who benefits from the continued illegalization of pot?

bajaguy - 3-5-2011 at 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajajazz
Let's see, now. Gun shops in Arizona make major bucks selling assault weapons to drug dealers and don't want their business interrupted. So they pay off the biggies at ATF to look the other way.......

Actually, there were several gun shops who expressed concern to ATF agents over the sales of the weapons.......however the ATF supervisors overruled the field agents....

Do your homework before making unsupported claims.

Woooosh - 3-5-2011 at 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

These are two different events. The gun used to kill the ICE agent in his SUV was traced back to Dallas. The gun used to kill BP agent Terry was traced back to this ATF Fast and Furious program.

DENNIS - 3-5-2011 at 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
The US/ Mexico border areas have become killing grounds. How many more lives will be lost before pot is legalized? One question. Who benefits from the continued illegalization of pot?

I agree....I think, but if the product wasn't Pot, it would be People or something else. You can't just turn an army out into the streets with nothing to do.
Perhaps it's time to revisit the "Fence" discussion

woody with a view - 3-5-2011 at 11:51 AM

where's the fence?

Woooosh - 3-5-2011 at 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

I don't think legalizing pot would make a dent in the cartel business at this point. The cartels move a lot of crystal meth (ice) and coke. Dennis is right- they will step up other income making like kidnappings and extortions. What drugs were the 13 military guys carrying in their backpacks when they got snagged on the way to TJ last week? Legalizing pot won't have an impact on cartel income at this point. Too late for that. This is about money, not drugs.

And forget a border fence being the answer at this point too. The many tunnels under it show we have a false sense of security with the existing border. (Hard to believe we don't have the anti-tunnel technology to find them when the TSA is developing ways to see through people clothes in huge crowds to find suicide bombers). We need walls, not fences and in many areas we should back away from the actual geographic border line to create a defensible border line.

[Edited on 3-5-2011 by Woooosh]

Barry A. - 3-5-2011 at 11:56 AM

Wooosh---------Don't you thing that "tunnels", tho a problem, are really a minor problem in the general scheme of Border issues?? Not too many folks and drugs come thru tunnels, relatively speaking, from what I understand.

Barry

Woooosh - 3-5-2011 at 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Wooosh---------Don't you thing that "tunnels", tho a problem, are really a minor problem in the general scheme of Border issues?? Not too many folks and drugs come thru tunnels, relatively speaking, from what I understand.

Barry

In the TJ area tunnels are a huge problem. They are very high tech with rails to move big shipments through. A few months ago a tractor trailer of pot was found near the border and I doubt they were going to drive it across. I'll bet there are a dozen high-capacity tunnels in operation here.

Bajaboy - 3-5-2011 at 12:12 PM

Remember, according to the NRA folks, guns do not kill...what's the big deal?

bajaguy - 3-5-2011 at 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy
Remember, according to the NRA folks, guns do not kill...what's the big deal?

Actually, guns don't.......just like cars don't..........it's the people

DENNIS - 3-5-2011 at 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Don't you thing that "tunnels", tho a problem, are really a minor problem in the general scheme of Border issues?? Not too many folks and drugs come thru tunnels, relatively speaking, from what I understand.

Barry

From what our people say, they don't know.
Why don't we have sensors buried in the ground to allert us to underground activity?
The more that obvious methods are ignored, the more I wonder who the enemy really is.

bajaguy - 3-5-2011 at 12:16 PM

No common sense, Dennis.........the people in charge don't or won't listen to the people in the field actually doing the job.....been there, have the t-shirt.

DENNIS - 3-5-2011 at 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
And forget a border fence being the answer at this point too.

OK...I'll forget about it.
How about a Moat?

woody with a view - 3-5-2011 at 02:06 PM

the agent just killed after firing bean bags.....

reminds me of another LE agency SOB using slingshots!

WTF?

they got us right where they want us!!!

Bajahowodd - 3-5-2011 at 05:09 PM

Anyone remember an outfit known as the CIA? These bad boys have been screwing with regimes and people all around the world for a long, long time. Talk about rouge. Anyone want to rule out any CIA involvement in any of the Mexican drug problem?

I just have to believe that given the incredible revenue stream that drugs provide, short of a nuclear attack, this problem cannot be eradicated.

However, as in the days of PRI control of the Mexican government, it can still be managed. Is that right? Is that moral?

Geez. If you have an absolutist outlook on things, the situation will never improve. But the bloodshed and mayhem can abate significantly, if folks are willing to be realistic about what's happening.

Moral? Perhaps not. Save lives? Absolutely.

gnukid - 3-5-2011 at 05:12 PM

Wow common sense! Howard What are you drinking fella!

Bajahowodd - 3-5-2011 at 05:19 PM

Not enough, gnu. :lol:

DENNIS - 3-5-2011 at 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
However, as in the days of PRI control of the Mexican government, it can still be managed. Is that right? Is that moral?

It was never "managed." It was ignored until one day someone pulled their head out of their arse and said, "Holy Crap. What the EF is this?" By then it was too late.

There is no virtue in complicity. Sorry.

Bajahowodd - 3-5-2011 at 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
However, as in the days of PRI control of the Mexican government, it can still be managed. Is that right? Is that moral?

Dennis, you give the PRI too little credit. IMHO.

[Edited on 3-6-2011 by Bajahowodd]

DENNIS - 3-5-2011 at 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Dennis, you give the PRI too little credit. IMHO.

There's around 50 million citizens down here that wouldn't consider that possible. :lol:

HowOdd ?

MrBillM - 3-5-2011 at 06:57 PM

"Anyone remember an outfit known as the CIA? These bad boys have been screwing with regimes and people all around the world for a long, long time. Talk about rouge".

What the Heck does Makeup have to do with it ?

DENNIS - 3-5-2011 at 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
What the Heck does Makeup have to do with it ?

Maybe Mrs. Doubtfire was a Spook. :light: