BajaNomad - Internet System Hacking by Americans

Internet System Hacking by Americans

gatito - 4-6-2011 at 08:10 AM

On April 3, 2011 three sailboats entered Willard Bay here at Bahia San Luis Gonzaga. It was obvious to the local residents that they needed assistance to find good anchorage. The locals got on the radio and assisted them answering all their questions. They stayed several days and continued to receive information from several local residents via channel 72.

Many of us who have homes here in Baja, also have Internet Satellite Service. Well, guess what...our friendly yauchters were hacking our system and arrogantly admitted to this when questioned. Replying with "you have such and such security and any school child with a computer can break your code", and sounding very proud of his accomplishment.

We have a way of checking computers using our system and noticed "Jims-PC", obviously unknown to us appeared under present users. It was later discoverd that they were operating 3 computers right here at Papa Fernandez Restaurant, as you know this plays havoc with our limited FAP. I have not given the statement as to how they broke into our coded system, in detail, as the hacker admitted to me, as it would allow others to do it. But I will tell you, if you are using WEP you should change to WPA as we have done.

So....Jim, Tom and Dennis, along with others aboard left Willard/Gonzaga Bay heading South, leaving behind many questions as to how Americans should treat Americans in Baja. They walked right by our house, obviously observing the Internet Satellte System...never contacting us...heading directly to the restaurant, to proceed with their dishonest deed. Thinking no one would ever know.

We have traveled in Baja for over 40 years and have had a home here at Bahia San Luis Gonzaga for over 25 years. We are now full time residents. This is the first time that anyone has given us a reason to alert Baja residents about dishonest people in Baja, and they were fellow Americans. A sorry and disturbing incident.

mtgoat666 - 4-6-2011 at 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gatito
On April 3, 2011 three sailboats entered Willard Bay here at Bahia San Luis Gonzaga. It was obvious to the local residents that they needed assistance to find good anchorage. The locals got on the radio and assisted them answering all their questions. They stayed several days and continued to receive information from several local residents via channel 72.

Many of us who have homes here in Baja, also have Internet Satellite Service. Well, guess what...our friendly yauchters were hacking our system and arrogantly admitted to this when questioned. Replying with "you have such and such security and any school child with a computer can break your code", and sounding very proud of his accomplishment.

We have a way of checking computers using our system and noticed "Jims-PC", obviously unknown to us appeared under present users. It was later discoverd that they were operating 3 computers right here at Papa Fernandez Restaurant, as you know this plays havoc with our limited FAP. I have not given the statement as to how they broke into our coded system, in detail, as the hacker admitted to me, as it would allow others to do it. But I will tell you, if you are using WEP you should change to WPA as we have done.

So....Jim, Tom and Dennis, along with others aboard left Willard/Gonzaga Bay heading South, leaving behind many questions as to how Americans should treat Americans in Baja. They walked right by our house, obviously observing the Internet Satellte System...never contacting us...heading directly to the restaurant, to proceed with their dishonest deed. Thinking no one would ever know.

We have traveled in Baja for over 40 years and have had a home here at Bahia San Luis Gonzaga for over 25 years. We are now full time residents. This is the first time that anyone has given us a reason to alert Baja residents about dishonest people in Baja, and they were fellow Americans. A sorry and disturbing incident.

did you get the sailboat names? post them here.
you should post this story in the sailing cruising forums, and send letter to editor of "The Log."
scofflaws like this should be outed and ostracized.

gatito - 4-6-2011 at 08:44 AM

There were 3 sailboats and we know only two of the names...not sure if the spelling is correct but:
Windward and Anne Marie...3rd vessel name unknown...

Martyman - 4-6-2011 at 08:46 AM

Relax Gatito
You live in Mexico now, Adopt the manana attitute. Sounds like you just need to be mad at someone.

Wireless Insecurity

MrBillM - 4-6-2011 at 08:48 AM

Gonzaga is no different from anywhere else on either side of the border in that too many people maintaining Wireless Access use either NO security or the minimum. For many, the insecurity problem is enhanced by the fact that they're utilizing antenna systems to increase the range of their signals for sharing purposes. If nothing else, the unauthorized use is a problem because Hughes penalizes over-usage.

Most avoid encryption because of the (minor) password hassle, but generally speaking, at a minimum WEP should be used in those more isolated areas. WEP is still pretty good outside major Urban areas, although it is fairly easy to Crack nowadays. At one time a few years ago, it was stated that it would take a Cracker around 24 hours of "sampling" to crack the encryption code. A year later, an article in the same Mag (PC World) said that software available to ANYONE over the Internet could do it in 30 minutes.

WPA-2 (if available on the Router) is still fairly safe, or, at least I haven't heard different yet.

MY suggestion to EVERYONE for whom I've set up systems or given advice is to follow my practice of enabling MAC restriction. It's a hassle and the list has to be kept current, but it's hard to get around, Although there are Crackers who can spoof the system.

It's just like any other kind of Physical security: Padlocks, Deadbolts, Bars, Alarms. The more difficult to get in, the less likely.

David K - 4-6-2011 at 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gatito
There were 3 sailboats and we know only two of the names...not sure if the spelling is correct but:
Windward and Anne Marie...3rd vessel name unknown...

I am curious, as I don't know what exactly happened to you from what was done... Did you have something stolen or was it that they just used up time on your plan? I mean, did they hack into your bank account, etc.?

If they acted like 'grownups' and introduced themsleves and asked if they could use your Internet, would that have been okay?

Thanks for posting!

mtgoat666 - 4-6-2011 at 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I am curious, Did you have something stolen or was it that they just used up time on your plan?

dk:
using up time on plan is stealing. do you think plans are free? hacking is criminal.

Jim/Liisa - 4-6-2011 at 10:22 AM

It's not hacking, it's called wifi. If you don.t want this to happen set up a password.
People that travel will do wifi through out the world to lets say pay there bills or what ever. If you leave your computer open with out password protection it,s like saying it's alright to use access, wifi is not ILLEGAL.

Well, DUH !

MrBillM - 4-6-2011 at 10:34 AM

I see there are those busily picking Nits.

Hack or Not ?

They were using WEP encryption (which is noted with "I have not given the statement as to how they broke into our coded system, in detail, as the hacker admitted to me, as it would allow others to do it. But I will tell you, if you are using WEP you should change to WPA as we have done".), then it "Would" be a Hack.

Or, Crack.

That whole terminology has gotten a little confused. Originally, a Hack, Hacker, Hacking didn't denote malice. Rather, simply a "solution" to a Software problem. Hacking then became associated with those who did so for BAD purposes.

In the last few years, there's been a move on in technical and consumer publications to revert to the original meaning and to denote the BAD guys as CRACKERS doing CRACKS. Since the mental image of Hacking being BAD is so ingrained in the General Populace, I think it's probably doomed.

But, in any case, it's true that, if there was no encryption set, it doesn't require ANYTHING other than signing on.

[Edited on 4-6-2011 by MrBillM]

gatito - 4-6-2011 at 10:36 AM

jim/lisa:
our system "was protected" with a WEP key password. They hacked in to a protected system. We have changed to a WPA security password system.

and in answer to dk:
No, none of our personal information was compromised they compromised our FAP limits which are very valuable in an area such as this with no telephone or cell phone service available.

Jim/Liisa - 4-6-2011 at 11:00 AM

Sorry guy's must have read between the lines...

larryC - 4-6-2011 at 04:53 PM

Gatito
Thanks for the heads up. Ann Marie, and Wwindward just showed up here in Bahia. I'll shut off my router. Just an after thought, did Jim on Ann Marie offer to show you his adult puppet show while they were up there? They did it here in Bahia last week.
Larry

DanO - 4-6-2011 at 05:29 PM

Adult puppet show? Sounds creepy.

gatito - 4-6-2011 at 07:42 PM

to Larry C...Thanks for the post...no he didn't but we heard him talking to other folks on the radio about it...we didn/t have a clue what it was all about!!!

David K - 4-6-2011 at 08:31 PM

Larry, how about a You Tube of the show? :rolleyes:

gnukid - 4-6-2011 at 09:11 PM

If the network is open enough to access, using the connection or available data is not considered theft-it's like garbage left outside-its free for the taking.

If the network is securely closed and the boaters used packet sniffing/logging to record packets, force logoff and logon to record user id and password and then use that data to logon that is debatable. Theft implies that you were deprived of the use of your property.

BajaNomad - 4-6-2011 at 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gatito
and in answer to dk:
...they compromised our FAP limits

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwidth_cap

mcfez - 4-6-2011 at 11:12 PM

We shut down the pc when not in use by us. Wireless or otherwise....it best to turn it off for security.

larryC - 4-7-2011 at 07:31 AM

I didn't go the the puppet show this year, so no youtube available. I did hear that a couple of kids screamed and ran out of the room. Pretty good critique I would say. I am not into puppets nor cartoons, just not my thing.
Larry
Gnukid, Theft may not be the most accurate term for using someone elses wifi signal, but it does affect the subscriber of a satellite service. We are limited to X amount of bandwidth usage a day, week, etc. So when someone uses our systems it does cause problems. Slows our service down and in general is not invited. If someone asks me I always say yes, but I ask them not to down load movies or any large files.

bajalou - 4-7-2011 at 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
If the network is open enough to access, using the connection or available data is not considered theft-it's like garbage left outside-its free for the taking.

If the network is securely closed and the boaters used packet sniffing/logging to record packets, force logoff and logon to record user id and password and then use that data to logon that is debatable. Theft implies that you were deprived of the use of your property.

Not necessarily.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/mobility/business/showAr...

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/08/technology/personaltech/inte...

Heard of someone arrested in Florida for this - don't have the article.

goldhuntress - 4-7-2011 at 09:34 AM

Well, whatever you want to call it, it's totally not cool to use someones service without permission. And then brag about it? Very lame people.

Legally Speaking

MrBillM - 4-7-2011 at 10:05 AM

Especially in Mexico, is Meaningless. There is no recourse in that direction, anyway.

Practically speaking, THEFT and INJURY are what the VICTIM decides they are framed by his or her inclination and ability to rectify said Injury.

My comment, Having "rectified" many such injuries in the (sometimes near) past, would be "Deal with it or Let it go".

ONLY the victim can be the judge of what action is necessary, guided by the likelihood of discovery and retribution.

Bajatripper - 4-7-2011 at 10:34 AM

One could look at them as having provided you with a free (although unsolicited) assessment of your computer security--which you were obviously in need of.
Don't know how much this unwanted service cost you--your only mention along those lines is that such services are "valuable" where you are at, which makes it sound like you would have sold them the service if you could have.

On the bright side, they gave you a quick evaluation and pointed out your weaknesses before leaving and you were able to resolve the problem promptly. The only thing laking was a written report.

One thing they obviously have underestimated is the tightness of the Baja Community--whether it be by air, land, or sea--but my guess is that they are about to learn about it.

Anyone get the name of the third boat yet? :lol:

mtgoat666 - 4-7-2011 at 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper
One thing they obviously have underestimated is the tightness of the Baja Community--whether it be by air, land, or sea--but my guess is that they are about to learn about it.

Anyone get the name of the third boat yet? :lol:

cruisers love to blog about their exploits. they have their own forums where they act similar to nomads (drunken blogging, posting/answering the same questions over and over, etc.).
find out where they post, and flame them, out them, expose their outlaw ways!
perhaps someone can hack into their laptops and monkey around; eye for an eye, ya know?

BAJAHAHAs

MrBillM - 4-7-2011 at 12:26 PM

Overall, the "Cruising" community who make the seasonal trek to Baja are some of the most Untrustworthy people around.

Back in the days when I kept a Sailboat in San Diego Bay, for years on a mooring and later in a slip, I was warned (along with others) by the Port District that the most dangerous period for theft from vessels was that time when the Cruisers would gather in the Bay before making the November sail South. This was brought home to me when I was staying on one of the Port District Laurel Street Transient Med-Moors between the time my Coronado Mooring expired and my Laurel Street Mooring became available.

The boat next to me lost a LOT of gear they'd left on deck one night. Luckily, the only thing I had on deck (and lost) was line. Reporting the crime, we were told that it was all probably on its way to Baja.

mcfez - 4-7-2011 at 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

BajaBlanca - 4-7-2011 at 12:52 PM

I agree that they underestimated the power of the internet community in Baja ... they shoulda coulda mighta asked permission, it's the right thing to do.

fishabductor - 4-7-2011 at 01:02 PM

Not all gringo's in baja are good, hopefully these people aren't into identity theft to pay for their vacation! keep a close eye on all account and track your credit!

We have been/were dealing with a gringo career criminal out on the eastcape. A 30ish surfer type with lots of tatoos and a shaved head...who is also an obvious tweaker. he was hanging w/ a mexican girl and a mexican guy...also tweakers.

He is now visiting the Mexico State federal "hotel" for bad guys....ie the mexican jail, after being picked up with his crew in a stolen car full of stolen possessions.

Hopefully mexico will deport his burro as soon as he gets out...if he makes it out!

Russ - 4-7-2011 at 03:48 PM

I have been hacked twice. Both time sailors were anchored near by. Also they some how accessed the security and disabled it. I was gone but leave the system up 24/7 and each time the FAP reinitialized they would get back on and use the available FAP. I now have some one that can check it and reset the security. I consider it theft and with intent to cause you financial harm. They think they're clever but as with any hacker they are criminals. Those that say "lighten up" just haven't been through it. I have a lot of folks using my system, with permission, and they try to consider the rest of us and tread lightly.

larryC - 4-7-2011 at 05:31 PM

Right now as I type the 3 sailboats are anchored off camp gecko. Way too close. I think I heard on the radio that they are getting Abrahams wifi. Not mine.
Larry

BajaGringo - 4-7-2011 at 05:42 PM

Anyway a little virus could be sent their way???

Just saying...

mtgoat666 - 4-7-2011 at 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by larryC
Right now as I type the 3 sailboats are anchored off camp gecko. Way too close. I think I heard on the radio that they are getting Abrahams wifi. Not mine.
Larry

sounds like the neighborhood needs to defend themselves from pirates that apparently plunder and pillage every community they visit.

Paulina - 4-7-2011 at 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by larryC
Right now as I type the 3 sailboats are anchored off camp gecko. Way too close. I think I heard on the radio that they are getting Abrahams wifi. Not mine.
Larry

Larry,

Isn't Abram there right now? Maybe he can be forewarned to shut his system down.

P>*)))>{

MAC Filtering ?

MrBillM - 4-7-2011 at 06:38 PM

Worth a try ?

monoloco - 4-7-2011 at 07:23 PM

Any time that someone takes steps to get around encryption to access someones network they are committing both theft and trespassing and should not be surprised when some equal or greater inconvenience befalls them.

Roberto - 4-7-2011 at 07:34 PM

There is a potentially bigger problem here. How many of you use the same credentials for different purposes. In today's world, we have passwords for many internet/networking/computer resources. It's impossible to have different credentials for each one, so we start to use the same one over and over so we can use our computers with minimal fuss.

This applies to passwords on routers - so once you are on a router, that password could possibly be used to access computers on that network, and cause WAY more trouble than just using an internet connection. Anyone who has no problem doing number one is pretty likely to do #2 as well.

Maybe a little one-on-one chat with these folks might be appropriate? Increased security on internet routers in the Baja desert. If that ain't an alarm that the old days are gone, I don't know what is.

Just a thought.

Taking a Pass

MrBillM - 4-7-2011 at 07:46 PM

Well, ALL of the Routers I have (and Had) use 64 or 128-bit "Hex" Passwords which I wouldn't use in other applications. Especially since EVERYONE accessing that Router would use the SAME one.

We're not talking about the password the "Admin" uses for setup.

Roberto - 4-7-2011 at 09:19 PM

you're right, but the password does not have to be entered in hex. a password can be used instead. e.g. http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1344. FWIW.

OK Whatever

MrBillM - 4-7-2011 at 09:39 PM

Yes, I Know, you "CAN" use ASCII for the Pass Key. All of the Routers I've setup (D-Link, Netgear, Linksys, Parker) use HEX for Default Key generation, but you could do otherwise on any of them. I've never done so and wouldn't, but it doesn't change the essence of what I noted in terms of shared usage and, therefore, being something you wouldn't want to use for other purposes.

So, the fact is that the only real problem with unauthorized access is someone using up your Bandwidth Quota or slowing your own usage.

Roberto - 4-7-2011 at 09:49 PM

And the fact is that you are right, of course. I am stunned and castigated.

larryC - 4-8-2011 at 08:14 AM

This morning they are gone. I don't think they are malicious, they probably just check their e-mail. But who knows, they may also download a movie, and that plays havoc with my FAP limit.
Larry

UN-Malicious Cruisers

MrBillM - 4-8-2011 at 09:18 AM

It's probably TRUE that the Majority of the Cruising Community are Not Malicious.

Most are NOT thieves, but Most ARE Freeloaders.

The difficulty is knowing which.

monoloco - 4-8-2011 at 09:47 AM

When they hack someone's password they cease being a freeloader and become a thief.

Philosophically and Legally Speaking

MrBillM - 4-8-2011 at 10:18 AM

Well, of course, those hackers are Thieves on the Philosophical question, but legally, Quien Sabe ?

Laws "Attempting" to address that question in the U.S. have encountered a Rocky Road (because of the provable LOSS question) with, often, the result being that they were vacated UNLESS the person was actually ON the Victim's property.

It got to the point where the Freeloaders were not only trolling down the street and parking in front of the victim's house, but pulling into private driveways.

Generally speaking (absent Trespass), the burden has been determined to be on the Network Owners to protect their signal. Which, of course, is more and more difficult. It wasn't long after it became fairly easy to crack WEP that WPA was exposed. I haven't read anything lately, so I'm "assuming" that WPA-2 is still safe.

Commercial users (who charge) such as Campgrounds and Motels that I've utilized have gone to "Portals" which require an access key that has been enabled or C.C., but that, of course, is not something that those simply sharing their signals would resort to.

BajaGringo - 4-8-2011 at 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Most are NOT thieves, but Most ARE Freeloaders.

My opinion of the two are just about the same...

Cypress - 4-8-2011 at 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Most are NOT thieves, but Most ARE Freeloaders.

My opinion of the two are just about the same...

True!

Jack Swords - 4-8-2011 at 01:57 PM

I pondered whether to chime in on this thread or not. As a member of the Nomads since dirt and a part of the cruising community for the past 13 years, one must surely realize that all groups have their "freeloaders" and "thieves". The diversity among cruisers is similar to that of the members of this board. Literally thousands of dollars have been poured into charities in La Paz and Loreto as a result of fund-raising by cruiser groups. Members of the Nomads have also enthusiastically supported those in need. As a traveler in Mexico we have experienced folks camped for months on beaches living on very little income. Now those beaches and the camping is drying up as we see more and more development. The same is true with cruisers. Years ago one's boat could anchor for months in a cove with little money spent. Now, new marinas are springing up and charge the same for a slip as one would pay in the U.S. Anchoring, which used to be free, is charged by the day in many places in Baja (like La Paz Bay). More charges are coming. Yes, there are freeloaders on land and sea, but that is changing rapidly. No longer can a free spirit go to Mexico on so-many dollars a day. That these three boats are up in the Sea is interesting as Bay Fest is going on in La Paz for this week. Apparently they are not participating. (Google Club Cruceros to see what's going on)

Marina de la Paz several years ago put in wi-fi for their clients. So many bootleggers tapped into the system (at anchor, parked on adjacent streets) that it was overloaded and useless. Finally wire was strung to each and every slip in the marina to enable client use of the Internet. At sea, well prepared boaters (cruisers) use Pactor over HF radios to e-mail on the Internet. It works quite well.

The cruising community I have been acquainted with, both in the U.S. and the Sea of Cortez have been generous to a fault. Are there some jerks? Sure, but no more than one experiences anywhere in this life. Drop by, swim out, say hello and meet some nice folks. You'll probably be greeted with a glass of wine or a beer, and maybe dinner. Cruisers usually have a thorough first-aid kit and reliable radio communications both locally and back to the states. Keep this in mind as we wander into those isolated spots.

Bill: I put wi-fi on my boat and use WEP and WPA-2. I appreciate your knowledge and input. Always learning something.

bufeo - 4-8-2011 at 02:13 PM

Jack,

I'm glad you posted that. As a former 'cruiser' (44' trawler) and a former 'anchored-on-land' Baja resident I concur with your comment.

Allen R

MitchMan - 4-8-2011 at 02:32 PM

BillM, I set up security on my wireless network by only allowing PCs that are put on a list in my router. That list requires the net bios name and the MAC address. None of the user PCs that is on the list has to use a password to get onto the network, just boot the PC and start the browser. Is this what you are calling 'MAC' restriction?

If so, is MAC restriction, in fact, better than WEP or WPA-2 security? I mean, I am thinking that if you are disallowed from access on my router because I haven't entered your PC's worldwide unique MAC address on my list of permitted users, how in hell can you get on my wireless network? I was hoping that it would be absolutely impossible for a non-listed PC to get on my network. Am I wrong?

absinvestor - 4-8-2011 at 03:13 PM

Hacking a password is something different but up until a couple of years ago when we traveled we always would search for an unprotected wi-fi site to check email etc. We would usually find a connection outside a library, school or large business. The wi-fi at our house has one set price for unlimited access and downloads and we assumed that our using anothers wi-fi didn't cost them anything. In 2009 we found out different. We were staying at a campground in Mississippi that didn't have internet. I spoke to another camper who said that the local library had wi-fi. We were in a really small town and the library had a really small parking lot. We drove around the block looking for a parking space and my wife commented that she was picking up wi-fi from a school. We found a parking spot in front of the school on the street. I trade stocks and that evening I returned to the same spot to do my internet work. The next morning we returned for the 3rd time and while I was getting online stock quotes the principal of the school walked up to the motorhome and asked me what I was doing. I told her I was using their wi-fi to get some stock quotes and she just smiled and said a couple of the students had seen us there two or three times and she was curious. She told us to have a nice day and went back inside the school. Less than 5 minutes later the local sheriff pulled up behind the motorhome and walked up to the drivers window. He asked me what I was doing and I told him. He started to read me the riot act saying I was stealing and I was commiting a felony etc etc. I told him that the principal knew and she didn't seem to have a problem with it to which the sheriff told me it was the principal who called him!! He told me not to move and that he was going inside to see if the principal wanted to press charges!! After waiting about 10 minutes he came back out and told me the principal didn't want to press charges. He told me to leave and not return!! Someone hacking a password should know better but I wonder how many people use others wi-fi without knowing they may be using a limited supply of download time etc etc. (Last year when camping at Daggetts campground in Bahia de Los Angeles one of the campers was sitting on top of his trailer saying he was picking up wifi from one of the surrounding houses/'businesses. ) At our house I only use a password to protect my personal info- Is it possible the sailboaters don't realize they are "stealing" limited download access from the owners and since they are not trying to "steal" bank info etc don't realize they are doing anything wrong?? (I only say this because I would never have intentionally stolen time from a library, school or individual but I did it out of a lack of knowledge.) Granted the camper in Bahia de Los Angeles wasn't trying to hack into a protected site but he certainly wasn't trying to hide what he was doing. There wasn't anyway for him to determine which house/ business had the unprotected site so how would he "ask for permission?" I'm confident that he didn't realize that he was doing anything wrong.

MAC Restriction

MrBillM - 4-8-2011 at 04:23 PM

We're talking about the same thing.

MediaAccessControl

12-Digit Hexadecimal ID for Wireless Devices.

Reading up just now on the MAC spoofing, it is relatively simple, however, it appears that to spoof onto a restricted network, you'd need to know one of the allowed MACs. Not something that those cruisers would have access to.

[Edited on 4-8-2011 by MrBillM]

MitchMan - 4-8-2011 at 04:59 PM

Absinvestor,
The officer was going to possibly arrest you, possibly haul you off right then, charge you with some crime for what you were doing. No one on Wall Street has been incarcerated for the latest national/worldwide financial collapse when they were directly the cause.

Trillions in losses Vs use of some band width.
No consequences Vs charge you with a crime.

Wierd, isn't it?

[Edited on 4-9-2011 by MitchMan]

Jim/Liisa - 4-8-2011 at 05:52 PM

Ahhh, some thing about Hughesnet brings out the best in people. They SUCK but you can't live with out them in Mexico. Tried to see if I could get some fellow nieghbers at my campo to form a group conected to one dish and and split the cost. Of course this is after I had offered to pay to have use of Another nieghber for sevice to check emails. Didn't get any where. FAP CRAP is the whole problem...

Russ - 4-8-2011 at 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
We're talking about the same thing.

MediaAccessControl

12-Digit Hexadecimal ID for Wireless Devices.

Reading up just now on the MAC spoofing, it is relatively simple, however, it appears that to spoof onto a restricted network, you'd need to know one of the allowed MACs. Not something that those cruisers would have access to.

[Edited on 4-8-2011 by MrBillM]

When the jacked me they went into my wireless and disabled the security so MAC was not an issue for them.

fishabductor - 4-8-2011 at 07:04 PM

People in remote areas pay dearly for internet via satelite. it is not cheap to buy the equipment or the service. Most people buy the smallest broadband width they can and make it work. No downloading videos or music for some, others buy a bigger package and share it between a few houses.

There is a big difference between the unlimited dsl/broadband in the states and what we have out here in the boonies. The equipement alone will set you back about a minimum of $2k when bought/installed in baja...some systems are $6k! and a few hundred a month.

Where we live, we have no phone service (cell or landline) or no TV(don't care for it), so internet is both our communication(email, magicjack, skype) as well as our entertainment. Given this you can understand why we don't like it stolen..ours is protected and the code is changed regularly.

[Edited on 4-9-2011 by fishabductor]

Amazed ?

MrBillM - 4-8-2011 at 07:40 PM

I, too, am amazed at how many Networks I find unprotected. At one time (in Baja) strictly for recreation since I had (and have) my own Hughesnet access, I put up an external 16db antenna and trolled connections. Found 8-9 and 5 were unprotected. Most lately have changed.

Up North, there are 5 nearby (using only a 6db indoors antenna), but only one unsecured.

Working on systems for others, I'm even more amazed at those I find with the router setup still at the default "admin-password". DUH !

MitchMan - 4-9-2011 at 07:02 AM

Russ,
How in the heck does anyone get into your router if you use MAC restriction?

absinvestor - 4-9-2011 at 07:04 AM

To MitchMan- And that Sheriff was serious. When I told him that I was told the library had free internet but I couldn't find parking he yelled "son, this ain't the library, this here is the high school!!! My wife doesn't drive the motorhome so had he decided to take me in, it would have been a mess!! At our next stop I parked on the street, found an unprotected connection that was listed to a hardware store. I went inside the store and asked if they had a problem if I connected. They looked at me like I was crazy and said "no problem lots of people use our connection."

MitchMan - 4-9-2011 at 07:25 AM

When in La Paz and I need an internet connection, I just take my laptop into the downtown area, find a place to sit down and log on to any unsecured connection I can get. There are usually about 9 possible connections and at least 33% are not password protected. Usually because there are restaurants or coffee shops in the area that offer it free to their customers.

I figure if the owner/administrator of the connection doesn't know about wifi securitization or if he/she doesn't bother to implement it, it couldn't be much of a concern to him/her that some stranger like me would log on and use some of their bandwidth, much less their even being able to notice it.

I only use the internet while in Baja to check email, make calls via Skype, visit this forum, check currency rates, or to look some info up. I never ever access my checking accounts...never, while in Mexico.

I think it is all very innocuous stuff. Even in law, generally, if you cause no actual harm, there is no infraction.

wessongroup - 4-9-2011 at 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
I, too, am amazed at how many Networks I find unprotected. At one time (in Baja) strictly for recreation since I had (and have) my own Hughesnet access, I put up an external 16db antenna and trolled connections. Found 8-9 and 5 were unprotected. Most lately have changed.

Up North, there are 5 nearby (using only a 6db indoors antenna), but only one unsecured.

Working on systems for others, I'm even more amazed at those I find with the router setup still at the default "admin-password". DUH !

gnukid - 4-9-2011 at 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ

Quote:

When the jacked me they went into my wireless and disabled the security so MAC was not an issue for them.

Routers come shipped with a default ip address and often a default admin password. This is well known to even a kindergartener.

Most Netgear devices default to

http://192.168.1.1

user = admin
password = password

Using the defaults, anyone can disable the mac restrictions or add their own or spoof one of the listed mac addresses. There are other methods as well.

For those who use secure networks, you are sending your user id and password when you logon, these packets are being sent in the public realm. How is this private if you shout your id and password to the world is that private property?

Knowing this publicly available information about something that is public, occurring outside of the walls of your home, and using this information, while not depriving you of your property (not bandwidth) is not a crime in any jurisdiction.

This is the same policy that every company in the world runs by today, when you decide to participate in the cyber world (especially) using default settings you are not private nor do you own the data as your own. Just the opposite you are public, like garbage outside your house, it's free for the taking.

If any of you are concerned and would like to reduce exposure to your data or bandwidth, you need to become more involved in securing your network (or do not use one), you need to pay attention and do your research and implement a plan that protects you.

gatito is in no position to complain to anyone but himself. No crime was committed. gatito is responsible or not for himself.

Furthermore, he has not lost or been deprived of use of any of his personal property. The bandwidth is not his personal property.

Keep in mind that nearly every company you interact with, by your consent, is actually taking your personal data, and selling it to third parties, today this is occurring in real time in order to sell ads to be delivered to you in real time based on your data, even the data you type in to a web based (gmail/facebook email) before you click send. You can see ads change around your screen based on what you type-your data is being sold in a real time marketplace, apparently many of you like this system and you pay to participate in it.

[Edited on 4-9-2011 by gnukid]

MitchMan - 4-9-2011 at 08:04 AM

gnukid,
Many thanks for the info.

If you change the default user name and password for the router, then set up MAC restriction, you should be pretty secure, right? I mean, that way someone trying to get into your router would not be able to get in by their using the defaults. Since they can't get in, then they cannot disable the MAC restriction, right? I guess they would have to 'crack' your custom user name and password. I have heard that it is possible to do such 'cracking', though, I don't know how that is done or how anyone can protect against that.

You mentioned that when you, as a client, logon to the wireless network via your wirreless client PC, that such logon packets become publicly accessible as they are put out into the public air. Are those packets subject to being intercepted and opened up in order to see said client PC user name and password? Is this done with 'sniffing' software? If so, I am not seeing any fool proof way of securing anything, anywhere.

Man, I might stop using the internet for banking, or purchasing, or anything else that has to do with identity theft potential.

[Edited on 4-9-2011 by MitchMan]

MitchMan - 4-9-2011 at 08:31 AM

Also, I guess what you are saying, gnukid, is that a person who knows the router's user name and password can get into the router even though that invading user is not on the MAC list in a router using MAC restriction. right?

This is getting scary.

[Edited on 4-9-2011 by MitchMan]

bent-rim - 4-9-2011 at 08:50 AM

Baja sure is changing. When I got home from from my first dirt bike trip there about 15 years ago, my wife read me the riot act for not calling her enough while I was down there. I told her there are hardly any phones down there and that I called her when I could. I think a 3 minute call from a phone booth in San Felipe set me back about $75.00 when the bill came. She didn't believe me until some co-workers came back from a trip to Baja and told her they couldn't find any phones. I like being unconnected when I'm there, but I only visit. It is slimey to tap into someone else's gear, if you can't afford it, don't do it.

rob - 4-9-2011 at 08:51 AM

Bancomer has an interesting system to counteract that "public" logon vulnerability that Mitchman mentioned.

As part of the online banking package we were given a device that produces (I say "produces" rather than "generates" because have no idea whether the numbers are stored or generated) a number which you have to enter AFTER logging in.

I presume this number is then either matched or vetted by the server before you are allowed to continue.

wessongroup - 4-9-2011 at 09:00 AM

Talk about security lapses .... how about that 15 minutes that China "took" from the entire internet here a few months back... think it was just about three months later, we found out that China had produced the world "fastest supercomputer"...

Now what do you think happened within 15 minutes, with the worlds fastest supercomputer... accessing all data... available..

Seems the CIA and NSA and a few others thought it might be something of concern.... but, hey.... it's "Global" ... is that something like "Organic"...

Russ - 4-9-2011 at 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MitchMan
Russ,
How in the heck does anyone get into your router if you use MAC restriction?

The router has it's own password and after you get access to it you can enable or disable the security. Once into the router security you add the individual MAC ID's for each computer you want to have access through your wireless system. That's how mine works anyway. I can change the router password and do every so often if there is a problem.

gnukid - 4-9-2011 at 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MitchMan
gnukid,
Many thanks for the info.

If you change the default user name and password for the router, then set up MAC restriction, you should be pretty secure, right? I mean, that way someone trying to get into your router would not be able to get in by their using the defaults. Since they can't get in, then they cannot disable the MAC restriction, right? I guess they would have to 'crack' your custom user name and password. I have heard that it is possible to do such 'cracking', though, I don't know how that is done or how anyone can protect against that.

You mentioned that when you, as a client, logon to the wireless network via your wirrless client PC, that such logon packets become publicly accessible as they are put out into the public air. Are those packets subject to being intercepted and opened up in order to see said client PC user name and password? Is this done with 'sniffing' software? If so, I am not seeing any fool proof way of securing anything, anywhere.

Man, I might stop using the internet for banking, or purchasing, or anything else that has to do with identity theft potential.

[Edited on 4-9-2011 by MitchMan]

I am not an expert, so take this as general info. Many people including well known companies, they use tools like kismac and macspoof which are free tools for wireless stumbling, they log the packets of open or closed networks, a common technique could be to force a logoff or turnoff the power, that requires a logon, the packets are logged over time, then those packets may be injected to the secure router, regardless if you can read them or not, you are sending the logon info and you would be logged on.

Passwords are encrypted, meaning they appear as a bunch of characters, but it is still the password, you can copy and use that.

When you setup your router, you should change the default ip address, change the default admin password to something that is long and has mixed characters and case. Write it down but do not store it on the computer, write all your passwords on a sticky and paste it to the monitor-hahaha.

Another consideration is to use specific ip addresses for your machines, and disable dhcp or dynamic ip allocation, this may or may not accomplishe two things, specific ip addresses for your machines makes your connections slightly more reliable, lower overhead better streaming of audio/video, and you can setup firewalls for each ip address to allow only the data you want to pass. Disallowing dhcp means no one else can get an ip address dynamically from your network.

You can also use mac address restriction, but it may be possible to determine the mac address of the machines and spoof them.

By the way our favorite company, Google has been demonstrated to be using patented techniques to take data packets to use and resell the them. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/google-wifi-sniffin... Companies also uses the microphone and the video camera on your pc to record sound and video images of you periodically, they use speech recognition to know if you have a dog, or kids, what are talking about, what ads should they send. These ads are sold in a real time auction marketplace, within milliseconds, to send an ad to you. This is what you want isn't it?

Again, I am not an expert, my mom is our system administrator.

jenny.navarrette - 4-9-2011 at 09:42 AM

Aren't you people being a little too cerebal about all this? Every wireless internet router is also a wired router. They usually have four ethernet connections in the back. If you are so worried about security, you can turn off the wireless part of the router -- e.g. stop it from broadacasting RF signals -- and then just use the wired connection. That is 100% secure.

End of problem.

gnukid - 4-9-2011 at 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MitchMan
Also, I guess what you are saying, gnukid, is that a person who knows the router's user name and password can get into the router even though that invading user is not on the MAC list in a router using MAC restriction. right?

This is getting scary.

[Edited on 4-9-2011 by MitchMan]

Yes that is correct, to be clear about myself, I am not a hacker, I was, when I was about 3-6 years old, then I got busted for starting a machine in a factory.

Later I starred in made for tv shows, like Unsolved Mysteries about kids who hack about people like Kevin Mitnick.

Once I was accused of hacking the DOD, I was actually working for the DOD and someone else accidentally had the same ip address on the network and was also working for the DOD. Two machines with the same ip but different address caused a flag and I was placed under hold. You can see that faking someone's identity is quite easy and is not a good way to identify someone, you probably share logons and computers too? Of course someone will fake someone's identity in cyber-crime, the chances of the person committing fraud on the internet actually being the person they identify themselves to be is about zero percent. So whenever you hear, the intruder was identified by their ip address as..., you know the accused is not the intruder-any such report is worth nothing as evidence.

By the way, there are many other tools and techniques, almost every OS has multiple backdoors from the start plus viral backdoors arrive later, meaning there are access points to every machine regardless of what we've discussed so far. Also, there are other standards of networks, some run over basic electrical cables. There are many companies who specialize in these backdoor tools, the names of these companies are well known to you.

Backdoors are also referred to as interoperability, these may trigger messages or actions when certain actions occur on your computer or across multiple networks. For example, your bank or other secure network may send you a note if repeated failed logins occur (or the opposite) or send a note to the IRS if a deposit over $10,000 occurs, unless your account has the tax id of a corporate board member who are exempt from reporting?

Backdoors may be used for risk management. Backdoor tools are communicating between networks all the time, checking to see if problems are occurring, then steps are taken, windows update is an example.

A backdoor is most often hidden, but there are examples of backdoors that are not hidden, like a modem running on a machine inside a network, that is called a tunnel. Someone sitting in an arroyo in Baja could tap into gatito's network and then use another machine to call via dial-up modem to modem into let's say, NASA. That arroyo camper would now be on the internal NASA network. They could be browsing the network for extra terrestial flight engineer emails, it's hard to say this is illegal. Nothing was harmed, no one was deprived of their property, nothing was taken and resold. No network was hacked. Many examples of this occur and there are few laws in place to extradite someone in a foreign country from browsing a network in another country where no harm nor breaking and entering occurred.

Another example, is let's say algorithm trading machines start to slide fast up or down, or say detect insider trading, then actions could be taken. This backdoor code is simply a set of instructions based on a set of circumstances (scenario) on your computer to trigger steps based on actions that occur and are detected.

Risk management details scenarios, the scenarios may be treated as realworld or an exercise, the triggered result may be set to hide the exercise or take action.

A lesser known but significant interoperability (backdoor) company was at one time called Ptech also MITRE and PROMIS, they apparently have been sucked into the DOD.

You see, using these tools, it's very easy to see a trend, predict a trend with accuracy, or fake a trend, etc...

You see how this works? Who is hacking who?

[Edited on 4-9-2011 by gnukid]

wessongroup - 4-9-2011 at 09:49 AM

Not sure there exists a totally secure computer and/or network....

However, the recommendations given are about the best one can use... have a very restrictive network, using the MAC address... and making login and passwords as difficult as possible... new someone that used the square root of ramondomly generated numbers... and changed it daily...

Not sure one can opt-out at this stage of the game... as the Banks must use computers to handle the required data, which are then linked to the Fed's, along with just about everyone else...

Must say, they have been able to do a pretty good job.. had someone trying to buy a Python up in Garden Grove with one of my cards.... (it was the snake not the pistol)...

Called to ask, if I was buying a snake... :lol:

It sure in hell ain't perfect... but, what else do we have in the way of a choice ??

MitchMan - 4-9-2011 at 10:05 AM

Thanks Russ and gnukid, this is golden stuff.

Many thanks for the great advice, gnukid, to change the default IP address, password and user name to the router and to disable DHCP using assigned client IPs together with MAC restriction. If I learn nothing else about anything else for the rest of the week, this has been the best week of the year.

Muchas gracias por todo! Nomads rock.

wiltonh - 4-9-2011 at 10:10 AM

Mac Address Filter is my security choice but it has its down sides also. All data that passes between the wireless router and the computer is sent without any encryption. What this means is all data can be easily sniffed using many different software packages.

WEP does encryption but it can be broken easily. If your wireless router supports WAP then use it as it is harder to break. All systems connected to the network must support WAP to make this work.

If I am in a area where other people are using the same wireless network, I do no banking. If someone sees my email than so what. If some one gets my bank user name and password, bad things could happen. I connect my computer by a cable to do the banking.

When in Baja, I use a service called Mint. I set this up using a cable while in the states. I give Mint read access to all my banks and financial institutions. If I need to check a balance or some other financial site, I log into Mint. If someone got my user name and password they could see all my accounts but they could not change any of them.

Mint never requests write access to any of my accounts. Some trust is needed so do some research on Mint and you will see that they have covered their bases well.

They also have provided me with some very much needed information. Someone in Baja gave me a video file and when I tried to play it, my computer did not have the correct Codec. I did a search on the internet and found one for a dollar. I downloaded it and never gave it a second thought. About a month later Mint sent me an email. It said that an unauthorized transaction had happened in my Visa account. My first thought was that someone had gotten my user name and password. After some research, I found that the company that I had purchased the Codec from was charging me $14.99 per month for the rest of my life. Mint notified me and I contacted the company and cancelled all future charges. In this case, Firefox knew about the scam and would not allow me to go to the companies web site. I ended up getting the contact information from my Visa bill and got it cancelled.

WiFi security is never as good as a cable. The new area of attack will be smart phones. The amount of banking that is being done on them is going up very fast and I would hope that the security is better or we are in for trouble.

gnukid - 4-9-2011 at 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MitchMan
Thanks Russ and gnukid, this is golden stuff.

Many thanks for the great advice, gnukid, to change the default IP address, password and user name to the router and to disable DHCP using assigned client IPs together with MAC restriction. If I learn nothing else about anything else for the rest of the week, this has been the best week of the year.

Muchas gracias por todo! Nomads rock.

Please do not take my suggestions as expert advice, it was just a novice suggestion. I could be wrong about everything. I used to use no networking to avoid these issues and simply carry my data on flash drives with me, but recently I opened up and have open network devices. I also share my wifi.

MitchMan - 4-9-2011 at 10:46 AM

OK, gnukid, thanks for the headsup caveat.

The info is still good stuff as it better grounds me in my further research and confirmation efforts. Also, this is helping to integrate my fragmented knowledge on the subject.

This thread has on point info that is helping to illuminate the issues of incryptions (wep vs wap vs wap-2), MAC restriction, wifi risks, eliminate use of DHCP and assign specific IPs to client PCs, packet sniffing, 'back doors' into a network/PC and coded precipitation of an action plus modem tunnels, using random number generator to change passwords, MAC restriction sends unencrypted easily sniffed data to and from the router, et al. I've learned more significant useful stuff this morning than in the entire networking class I took.

Jenny-navarrette, you make a good point, but, the issue is security versus convenience of wireless internet access. The convenience is becoming (always has been) a super strong consideration. With internet information and communication usefulness exploding, its integration into our lives individually and in the aggregate is absolutely unavoidable. When I am in Baja, I take my laptop with me every time I go out the door (except when going fishing).

People are using their phones and the very portable notebooks more and more. You can't really make a website without taking into consideration all the non-desktop types of devices accessing the website if you want to make sure your website has competitive exposure and use. Even the sale of point and shoot digital cameras has dropped over the last three years as more and more people are opting to use their cell phones more than those little cameras.

More and more people are working from home because of the PC; and extension of that is being able to take the laptop and leave the house. Most free internet sources on the street don't usually have hard wire connection availability.

Nope, it is the wave of the future and the future is now.