BajaNomad - Mexico wants to sue U.S. gun makers

Mexico wants to sue U.S. gun makers

DENNIS - 4-22-2011 at 01:02 PM

I wonder if the lawyers will insist on payment up front? :lol:

---------------------------

CBS News has learned that the Mexican Government has retained an American law firm to explore filing civil charges against U.S. gun manufacturers and distributors over the flood of guns crossing the border into Mexico.

Sources say Mexico's frustration with U.S. efforts to stop the flow of weapons has pushed them into this novel approach. The law firm is looking at charges that may include civil RICO. The contract was signed on November 2, 2010 by a representative of Mexico's Attorney General, at their Washington embassy.

On November 5, 2010 President Felipe Calderon expressed his frustration to CBS News correspondent Peter Greenberg: "We seized more than 90,000 weapons...I am talking like 50,000 assault weapons, AR-15 machine guns, more than 8,000 grenades and almost 10 million bullets. Amazing figures and according to all those cases, the ones we are able to track, most of these are American weapons."

According to sources, investigators will obtain makes and serial numbers of guns seized by Mexican authorities and trace them to their U.S. distributors and manufacturers.

Watch: the Deadly City of Juarez, Mexico

Christopher Renzulli of New York, who has represented U.S. gun makers for fifteen years, says he believes this would be a difficult case for the Mexican government to win. "The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act would bar that kind of lawsuit from the start. The law, passed in 2005 has resulted in several lawsuits against gun makers being dismissed.

But sources familiar with the case say the law firm retained by Mexico - New York based Reid Collins & Tsai - believes the federal law won't stand in the way of their case.

According to the Mexican government database, there were 15,273 drug-related killings in 2010.Overall, a total of 34,612 people have died in drug-related killings in the four years since Mexican President Felipe Calderon declared a stepped-up offensive against drug cartels.

Richard Feldman, President of the Independent Firearms Association and former gun industry association executive said: "Maybe we should be suing the Mexican government for their failure to prevent drugs from coming into our country."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20056210-10391695.html

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Dave - 4-22-2011 at 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

According to the Mexican government database, there were 15,273 drug-related killings in 2010.Overall, a total of 34,612 people have died in drug-related killings in the four years since Mexican President Felipe Calderon declared a stepped-up offensive against drug cartels.

From these figures it appears that the guns are working as advertised.

woody with a view - 4-22-2011 at 02:14 PM

i want to sue Mexico for the drugs they send this way. any Nomad lawyers wanna take the case, pro bono? :light:

Dave - 4-22-2011 at 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
i want to sue Mexico for the drugs they send this way.

If you're talking about weed then I agree.

It's crap.

Bajahowodd - 4-22-2011 at 04:16 PM

Sadly, weed is the least of the problems. The cartels have quietly infiltrated many US cities to distribute coke and god knows what. Seriously, whether it's Nashville, Charlotte, Chicago or Atlanta, there is a sophisticated distribution system in place.

Kinda feel like the cartels have realized, what with the relaxing of marijuana access in the US, that they must work with much harder drugs.

Stickers - 4-22-2011 at 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

From these figures it appears that the guns are working as advertised.

Cartels Distributing Coke

MrBillM - 4-22-2011 at 09:54 PM

Another reason to drink Pepsi.

BajaGringo - 4-23-2011 at 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Another reason to drink Pepsi.

I remember drinking Coca-Cola in Argentina back in the early 70's and commented on how different it tasted - almost tea-like. I later learned they were still making it with the coca leaf recipe down there; something they stopped doing before the World Cup of 1978.

I assume they used the same recipe in the US at one time - anybody know/remember?

805gregg - 4-23-2011 at 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

From these figures it appears that the guns are working as advertised.

The US gun makers should get a bounty fee on every scumbag they help to cut down. How about 2k per head.

Excellent Point !

MrBillM - 4-23-2011 at 05:44 PM

Since the VAST Majority of the Gun Deaths are BAD Guys (NHI crimes as they say), U.S. Guns are performing a Needed Service in Mexico. They should be PAYING us rather than demanding we pay them.

*NHI - No Humans Involved.

choyero - 4-23-2011 at 06:30 PM

Doesn't the Mexican Military use US made guns as well?

JESSE - 4-23-2011 at 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by choyero
Doesn't the Mexican Military use US made guns as well?

No, they use german and domestic assault weapons.

Gringo Guns down South ?

MrBillM - 4-23-2011 at 07:55 PM

Well, the military does (or did) use the M-2 and the M-60. It's likely they still use the M-2. Nothing better for the job.

But, in the smaller arms, at roadblocks I have seen those guys in Black (complete with ski-masks) toting M-16s at times. No idea why since they have so many weapons to choose from. Picked up at the Segundaria ?

choyero - 4-23-2011 at 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by choyero
Doesn't the Mexican Military use US made guns as well?

No, they use german and domestic assault weapons.

no wonder why they are losing the war. :lol:

But seriously there is a lot of US hardware down here. Lots of M16s and AR15's, no mistaking these guns or their origin.

They should start collecting and using the guns they sieze from the bad guys rather than destroy them.

AK47's are great guns, and they seem to be the gun of choice amongst cartels . However, these are made outside the United States. Is Mexico going to try and sue the Russians, Romanians and Chinese gun manufactures as well? :?:

choyero - 4-23-2011 at 08:28 PM

just found this here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Army

Infantry weapons

FX-05 Assault rifle

G3 Assault rifle

FN P90 Submachine gun

RPG-29 Rocket propelled grenade

MSG-90

MILAN

Regular infantry
Heckler & Koch G3 7.62x51mm NATO. Currently standard issue.
FX-05 Xiuhcoatl 5.56x45mm NATO

Military police
FN FAL 7.62x51mm NATO assault rifle
Heckler & Koch G3 7.62x51mm NATO assault rifle

Special forces
M4A1 5.56x45mm NATO carbine
FN P90 5.7x28mm Submachine Gun [24]

CeremonialMondragón
F-08 7 x 57 mm Mauser automatic rifle used for ceremonial occasions

Submachine guns
Heckler & Koch MP5 9 mm Submachine Gun
Menzoda HM-4 .45 calibre submachine Gun

Shotguns
Remington 870 12 gauge pump action shotgun
Mossberg 500 12 gauge pump action shotgun

Machine guns
M2 Browning machine gun 12.7 mm (.50 cal)machine gun
HK21A1 7.62 machine gun. Made under license from Heckler & Koch
FN MAG 7.62 mm Heavy Infantry Machine Gun
M60 7.62 mm machine gun
FN MINIMI 5.56 mm light machine gun
M-134 minigun

Sniper rifles
Heckler & Koch MSG90 7.62x51mm NATO sniper rifle.
M24 Sniper Weapon System 7.62x51mm NATO sniper rifle
Barrett M82 12.7×99mm NATO (.50 Cal) sniper rifle

Pistols
FN Five-seven 5.7x28mm standard armor piercing pistol
Beretta 92 9x19mm side arm
Glock pistol 9x19mm side arm used by some infantry and

military police units
Heckler & Koch USP 11.43x23mm (.45 ACP) replacing Beretta 92.
CornerShot system.

In use for Special Force.
HKP-7 9 mm PARABELUM made by the Mexican army industries, in use for presidencials bodyguards and military police.

Grenade launchers
Mk 19 40mm grenade machine gun.
M203 grenade launcher 40mm grenade launcher.

Anti-tank missile systems
MILAN Anti-tank guided missile mounted on VBL scout vehicles.

Anti-tank gun
M40 106 mm recoilless rifle anti-tank gun mounted on High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle

Anti-tank rocket weapon system
B-300 82 mm light anti-tank rocket
RL-83 Blindicide 83 mm light

anti-tank rocket
RPG-29
RPG-7

Artillery
Field howitzersM101 105 mm towed Howitzer
OTO Melara Mod 56 105 mm towed Howitzer

Mortars
Brandt 60 mm LR Gun-mortar (1,561)
M1/M29 81 mm (330)
Brandt 120 mm (75)

[Edited on 4-24-2011 by choyero]

JESSE - 4-23-2011 at 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by choyero

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

Originally posted by choyero
Doesn't the Mexican Military use US made guns as well?

No, they use german and domestic assault weapons.

no wonder why they are losing the war. :lol:

The G3 that the military use is a far better weapon than the M16, and the newer FX05 is also better than most american guns.

It is a myth that cartels are better armed than the military, that is simply not true at all.

choyero - 4-23-2011 at 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

The G3 that the military use is a far better weapon than the M16, and the newer FX05 is also better than most american guns.

Don't doubt that for a second, the M16 was designed in 1957!

[Edited on 4-24-2011 by choyero]

JESSE - 4-23-2011 at 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Well, the military does (or did) use the M-2 and the M-60. It's likely they still use the M-2. Nothing better for the job.

But, in the smaller arms, at roadblocks I have seen those guys in Black (complete with ski-masks) toting M-16s at times. No idea why since they have so many weapons to choose from. Picked up at the Segundaria ?

If they have M16s they are not military. The marinos do use M16 but that's only the regular infantry that you never see in the street. Marines that do conduct operations in the streets are special forces, and they are heavily armed with the best weapons money can buy.

JESSE - 4-23-2011 at 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by choyero

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

The G3 that the military use is a far better weapon than the M16, and the newer FX05 is also better than most american guns.

Don't doubt that for a second, the M16 was designed in 1957!

[Edited on 4-24-2011 by choyero]

Its not the age of the weapon, the M16 tends to be les reliable do to maintanence issues mainly. The Ak47 is far more reliable but a lot less accurate. The G3 is reliable, accurate, and packs a heavier punch than a Ak47, but is too heavy and long.

Thats why the mex military created the Fx05:

Armed Enough

MrBillM - 4-23-2011 at 09:35 PM

All of the nitpicking over which Rifle is BEST is a bit meaningless since ANY of them are good ENOUGH.

The IMPORTANT difference is the Quality of those who pull the trigger. And, those who do the directing.

Well ................

The days of Emilio Zapata are long gone.

But, if they ever went to war against France or Italy, Who knows ?

gnukid - 4-23-2011 at 09:37 PM

It's a tradition in Mexico to claim no responsibility for damage or negative results.

JESSE - 4-23-2011 at 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
All of the nitpicking over which Rifle is BEST is a bit meaningless since ANY of them are good ENOUGH.

The IMPORTANT difference is the Quality of those who pull the trigger. And, those who do the directing.

Well ................

The days of Emilio Zapata are long gone.

But, if they ever went to war against France or Italy, Who knows ?

Actually, the quality of the rifle is quite important. A great rifle in the hands of a regular trained man can produce very good results, and a bad rifle in the hands of the same person, will produce bad results.

flyfishinPam - 4-24-2011 at 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
It's a tradition in Mexico to claim no responsibility for damage or negative results.

BINGO!!

and this

[Edited on 4-24-2011 by flyfishinPam]

Armchair and Kitchen Table Experts

MrBillM - 4-24-2011 at 10:17 AM

Blah, Blah, Blah (or its equivalent in Espanol).

MOST all of any pontificating over the relative merits of the arms is just a bunch of regurgitating what the "expert" has read from the Internet and elsewhere.

Assuming that Mex Cook is not a Secret Agent Incognito trained in all modern weapons, for him (as a Mexican) to have any actual experience with the Many rifles in question would raise questions I'm sure the government would like answers to, but it's more likely that he's just repeating what's read.

I also have limited experience with actual firing of any late renditions, the one exception being the Civilian AR-15 which I dislike conceptually for its complicated (hence maintenance intensive) design AND, more importantly, the fact that I shoot Left-Handed and that rifle is the most Anti-Lefty weapon I've ever fired. My only other practical experiences with (older) weapons (other than my M1911s, Browning Hi-Power and Beretta 92 Handguns) have been the M-1 Carbine, M-1 Garand, my Chinese and Russian SKSs and two Sten Guns I once owned before getting too paranoid about the Feds or the State catching up with me. It seemed like every time we went out with them someone would show up in the area and the sound of Auto fire (even the SLOW rate of the Sten) was distinctive. With Cell phones everywhere today, it would be a lot worse.

Oh, I do have a 1901 8mm Turkish Mauser I bought for a wall-decoration. Although in good shape, I've never bothered to fire it. Besides, it doesn't really have any pertinence.

That said, my premise that the weapons in use today are close enough in performance that they aren't a significant factor, holds true.

While ALL things being equal (which NEVER occurs in battle), perhaps an edge goes to the superior rifle, but the marksman is a far more important factor.

Going back to the first "modern" war that the U.S. was involved in, the Spanish American, the Spanish were armed with far superior Mausers (that also had a more effective round) than the (mostly) Krags on our side, but we out-shot and out-fought them.

The British did well in TWO World Wars with the Lee-Enfield which was inferior to the Mausers used by the other side. For that matter, the Germans in WWII were successful with the Bolt-Action Mauser up against the M-1, the greatest rifle of the time. The Japanese infantry weapons were Crap from beginning to end, but they performed well.

In Vietnam, we saw the showdown between the AK-47 (along with a lot of SKSs) and the M-16, but one or the other wasn't a deciding factor. The M-16 performed well after correcting "concept" flaws and training the troops on proper cleaning/maintenance. That said, its complicated nature makes it a poor choice for a Third-World force.

In ANY battle, TWO things (other than LUCK which is often the X factor) make the difference.

Leadership and Logistics.

choyero - 4-24-2011 at 10:37 AM

I have a Russian SKS, that just won't quit. I haven't shot it in ages. But I did once shoot 5000 rounds without cleaning it before it jammed, a few days we blasted off a 1000 rds in an afternoon, back when a 7.62 x39 ammo case was $80/1000rds. It is the Remington 870 of the assault rifle world. I would have to assume the ak47 would be similar.

From what I have heard the Ar15/M16s have too high of tolerances and evena grain of sand can make them jam, while a SKS/AK47 is way loosey goosey. Probably could drop a golfball in the action and it would still operate.

[Edited on 4-24-2011 by choyero]

wilderone - 4-24-2011 at 10:42 AM

The only winner of the lawsuit will be Reid Collins & Tsai.

Cypress - 4-24-2011 at 11:52 AM

I'm a little bit partial to a 3" magnum pump 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buck.

AMEN to That SKS

MrBillM - 4-24-2011 at 01:10 PM

A GREAT Rifle. Even at today's inflated prices. Back when I bought the Chinese and the Russian they were under a hundred bucks. Now, they're (Yugoslavian mostly) up in the 400s. I have never gone that many rounds without cleaning, but I've never had a Jam. In the early days, the only ammo available CHEAP was Corrosive-primed so cleaning after each trip was mandatory. I made the BIG mistake of stocking up on that stuff just before the Non-Corrosive became available at reasonable prices. Assuming that Anarchy doesn't arrive before I depart, I've got close to a thousand rounds that I'll NEVER use.

The operating systems on the SKS and the AK-47 are VERY similar. I had thought they came from the same designer before I read differently, but then the Russians copied everybody, including each other. The AK was adopted and refined because it was Cheaper to make resulting in warehouses full of SKS rifles all over the Eastern-Bloc that eventually made it here. You can convert the SKS to the detachable AK magazines (if the kits are still around) AND to select-fire.

Doing either in California is Illegal, but what isn't when it comes to firearms ?

One oddity of the SKS variations is the Bayonet business. Not sure how many people have gone Berserk with Bayonets on their Assault Weapons, but that whole business of defining dangerous characteristics like pistol-grips, adjustable stocks and Flash-Hiders is strange in itself.

As to the 12-gauge pump, PERFECT for indoor self-defense. I've got a Mossberg and a Winchester. The Mossberg's sitting inside the bedroom closet loaded with 7 - 00 Buck waiting for THAT night, but they're not much for range.

Cypress - 4-24-2011 at 01:43 PM

MrBillM, Yep, buckshot isn't good for anything but close up, less than 100 yrds. My Winchester model 12 will reach out and touch someone at that range. OO Buck is about the same as a .32 caliber pistol round. Buckshot?You're gonna get hit by a handfull of 'em. They'll rock your world!

choyero - 4-24-2011 at 04:11 PM

I paid $175 out the door for my SKS equipped with 2 detachable 30rd clips and a folding stock. I think I bought it back in 1996.

The reason I ran 5000 rds through it just to see how many rounds it would take to make it jam, it never did. I only cleaned it because I was mothballing it, it is currently sitting in my buddy's safe.

ELINVESTIG8R - 4-24-2011 at 04:56 PM

Stooopid!

Hit by a Handful ?

MrBillM - 4-24-2011 at 06:11 PM

A HUNDRED yards ?

While I'm NOT taking issue with the marksmanship of others I haven't shot with, I have to say that hitting the intended (especially moving) at that distance WOULD be fairly good.

back in my Youth, I LOVED shooting Trap and (after awhile at it) I missed now and then at a much shorter distance having shot a 25 on only very few occasions. Although I usually shot back then with a 20-Gauge, I tip my hat at obviously better shooting.

But, given the spread at that range, you wouldn't be hitting them with a handful of the (7 - 9 ) Pellets. Admittedly, ONE "might" do it. However, that would beg the question "Why are you trying to bring someone down at that distance" ?

I've got a friend I've shot with in the past and he's always setting up targets WAY down range and my question is always WHY ? Neither one of us are hunters. I've never been. I tell him he's going to have a difficult time explaining shooting someone at that range.

BUT, to each their own. IF that night the Mossberg is waiting for ever comes, MY target will be inside 25 feet. DEAD. Or, I will be.

wilderone - 5-1-2011 at 09:46 AM

talk about blah, blah blah. I have some pigeons I need to get rid of. Do you think you're up to the task? Might get some use out of your arsenal.

ELINVESTIG8R - 5-1-2011 at 10:06 AM

I am sure glad I do NOT have a fully auto Olympic Arms K3B M4 Tactical Rifle with 8 100 round drum magazines and speed loaders for quick reloading and 3000 rounds. I would have to be a “gun nut” to have one of those don’t you think? If I did have one, like the gun nuts say, "I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!

Pigeon Popping

MrBillM - 5-1-2011 at 01:56 PM

Don't Hunt. The only Living thing I've shot at were Human.

Well, at least, Sub-Human.

Pigeons once were at the root of one of a few encounters I've had with Law Enforcement regarding guns.

Living in Indio, I had a neighbor who would shoot Pigeons out of the numerous Date Palms in his yard. Although it was Legal, I took offense at it and voiced my opinion, to which he gave no note.

A short time later, he was out doing his Bwana Hunter and I went out with My1911 and started blowing branches out of MY Date Palms and commenting "You want to Shoot, I'll Shoot".

OF COURSE, He called the Cops, but nothing came of it other than one of those "Yada, Yada, Yada" Admonitions. Long before Tony Soprano said it, I learned as a Teen in Watts dealing with the Law, "NEVER Admit Anything".

I don't remember him doing any further pigeon hunts while I lived there.