BajaNomad - Insightful Interview with Charles Bowden

Insightful Interview with Charles Bowden

monoloco - 7-10-2011 at 06:33 AM

http://www.counterpunch.org/zlutnick07082011.html

Santiago - 7-10-2011 at 07:32 AM

Thanks for the link. Good interview.

toneart - 7-10-2011 at 10:28 AM

This is a very comprehensive and well written article, as is most everything coming out of The Nation press.

Of course, the writer is focusing on Mexico, but you could say the same elements are destroying The United States; NAFTA, racism driven fear to implement a fair immigration policy, The War on Drugs, all of the stupid wars we are involved in, including the war on the middle class.

Between the No Empathy "Party of NO", and the Obama no backbone Party of No Change, we are going down.

Too Bad! We have lived through the best of times in what was the best country in the world; not perfect, but still, was the best.

tjBill - 7-10-2011 at 01:15 PM

Interesting. Charles Bowden really knows the border region whether or not you agree with his political views.

DENNIS - 7-10-2011 at 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tjBill
Interesting. Charles Bowden really knows the border region whether or not you agree with his political views.

I'm a big fan of Bowden. How could anybody dispute the guy?? I would love to see anybody call him wrong, with references.
It won't happen.

Bajahowodd - 7-10-2011 at 04:26 PM

Really great contribution. Bowden really nails it.

And he had me from the beginning. Although it was not specifically mentioned, a long time, chronic issue between Mexico and the US was what we did in the so-called war.

Just several years before it, the US acquired Florida from Spain, and in that treaty it was reaffirmed that the US respected the exisitng borders with the New Spain territory.

Greedy, expansionists in the US decided to steal what is today a huge amount of the American Southwest from the newly liberated Mexico, under the guise that the US had no treaties with this new country.

We did steal something like 40% of Mexico's territory merely because we could.

Cisco - 7-10-2011 at 09:25 PM

Monoloco:

Wow. Thank you for your post.

dtutko1 - 7-11-2011 at 06:30 AM

Makes things seem kind of hopeless. How long can we continue to dance between the raindrops?

TMW - 7-11-2011 at 10:05 AM

["Now Calderón is a very devout Catholic and he believes deeply in free trade. He belongs to a party there that would be like the Republican Party here. So he thinks he's giving shock therapy essentially to his own nation. One. Two: I don't think he had any idea really what he was getting into. He thought he'd prove he was a powerful strongman, and the country exploded because he didn't know his own country. What I mean when I say "ripped the mask off" is that he had assumptions about Mexico that were not true. And now the real Mexico's there—a country full of poor people with a corrupt government and there's—in a way a lot of the violence is like a mass revolt in the country. It's not political, it's simply, look, there's not a future for a lot of people, there's no money, there's no jobs. And now they're just killing each other and robbing. That's a lot of the crime—it has nothing to do with cartels fighting [each other]…"]

Frankly I think this is a pretty stupid comment. Does anyone here not think Mexico is full of poor people and the government is corrupt? And has been for decades. I don't think Calderon is that stupid.

BajaBlanca - 7-11-2011 at 10:40 AM

I had no idea of the horrific ramifications of NAFTA ....

How does one remove corruption which has been present over centuries ?

and the very thought that drug cash kept banks afloat is probably true but makes me sick.

DianaT - 7-11-2011 at 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
http://www.counterpunch.org/zlutnick07082011.html

Thanks! A good read. :yes:

baja1943 - 7-11-2011 at 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
I had no idea of the horrific ramifications of NAFTA ....

NAFTA the cheap labor agreement. Wake up everyone, the ramifications were staring all of you in the face when it was conceived. What did you think it was about? :fire:

tripledigitken - 7-11-2011 at 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by baja1943

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
I had no idea of the horrific ramifications of NAFTA ....

NAFTA the cheap labor agreement. Wake up everyone, the ramifications were staring all of you in the face when it was conceived. What did you think it was about? :fire:

The point made in the piece about renegotiating NAFTA to raise the labor rates makes sense. There's enough room to raise the wages to a livable wage for the local labor force, and still be a fraction of the cost of the USA.

monoloco - 7-11-2011 at 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
["Now Calderón is a very devout Catholic and he believes deeply in free trade. He belongs to a party there that would be like the Republican Party here. So he thinks he's giving shock therapy essentially to his own nation. One. Two: I don't think he had any idea really what he was getting into. He thought he'd prove he was a powerful strongman, and the country exploded because he didn't know his own country. What I mean when I say "ripped the mask off" is that he had assumptions about Mexico that were not true. And now the real Mexico's there—a country full of poor people with a corrupt government and there's—in a way a lot of the violence is like a mass revolt in the country. It's not political, it's simply, look, there's not a future for a lot of people, there's no money, there's no jobs. And now they're just killing each other and robbing. That's a lot of the crime—it has nothing to do with cartels fighting [each other]…"]

Frankly I think this is a pretty stupid comment. Does anyone here not think Mexico is full of poor people and the government is corrupt? And has been for decades. I don't think Calderon is that stupid.

I don't believe that Bowden is saying that Calderon didn't know that Mexico has a corrupt government and poor people, what he is saying is that he didn't understand that free trade was driving poverty and the crime rate and not benefiting the average worker in Mexico.

monoloco - 7-11-2011 at 04:18 PM

Free trade agreements, and the IMF have been ruinous to the economies of the US, Mexico, and many other countries.

Bajahowodd - 7-11-2011 at 04:32 PM

Free trade works very well among equals. The problem with NAFTA is that it was not among equals.

TMW - 7-12-2011 at 09:18 AM

Bowden claims that NAFTA caused the migration of poor Mexicans to the US because NAFTA had an effect on the corn crops. Well didn't Reagan give amnesty to about 12 million Mexicans when he was president in the 80s well before NAFTA. NAFTA took affect in Jan 1994 and I would bet that of the est. 13 million illegal Mexicans in the US now many came between the Reagans amnasty and 94. I think the influx of illegals into the US was because we had work to do and not enough field workers to do it and still don't. Mexico has always been a poor country and the field workers see the US as the place to go for work and make money. Our problem is the US government doesn't have a clue on how to handle the job of getting Mexicans that want to work the fields to the farmers who need them. Instead of trying to solve the problem everyone has made it politcal.

wessongroup - 7-12-2011 at 09:21 AM

Ditto's...

DENNIS - 7-12-2011 at 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
I think the influx of illegals into the US was because we had work to do and not enough field workers to do it and still don't.

Perhaps so, but a large portion of the illegals are not here for farm work. They do other work as well.
Not to mention, the communities of illegals in the US have made the crossing much more complicated than in the past. It's like a trip home for many of them, even if it's their first time.

Quote:

Mexico has always been a poor country and the field workers see the US as the place to go for work and make money. Our problem is the US government doesn't have a clue on how to handle the job of getting Mexicans that want to work the fields to the farmers who need them. Instead of trying to solve the problem everyone has made it politcal.

A revision of the Bracero Program is perhaps in order. Well...maybe. Point is, our government isn't going to do anything. They treat it as a self-moderating issue.
Freakin morawns.

wessongroup - 7-12-2011 at 09:41 AM

Been a while since I have been in the Central Valley at harvest ... in places like Delano, Parlier, Firebaugh, and a few other "cities" which see the influx of folks to pick... but, somehow I don't think it's changed... in over 20 years... since I was last actively involved in Ag...

TMW - 7-12-2011 at 12:08 PM

I've lived here for 12 years and it hasn't changed, it's all Ag. There are three major farms in the Bakersfield area with each employing 5,000 to 6,000 workers. There are a lot of smaller farms that need workers on a seasonal bases such as the nut business like almonds and oranges etc.

I doubt the Mexican government has a data base to draw from, if they do all the better, but it seems to me the US could start one and start giving out work visas. Maybe a three year visa that would allow the worker to cross the border. As long as he/she keeps clean, meaning no arrest, they can keep the visa and get it renewed. Maybe the visa would be for Ag work only or hotel and resturant too. I don't want to displace an American but to help those industries where there is a shortage of workers.

DENNIS - 7-12-2011 at 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
I doubt the Mexican government has a data base to draw from,

Not a chance. They tend to ignore their unemployed.

Bajahowodd - 7-12-2011 at 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by TW
I think the influx of illegals into the US was because we had work to do and not enough field workers to do it and still don't.

Quote:

A revision of the Bracero Program is perhaps in order. Well...maybe. Point is, our government isn't going to do anything. They treat it as a self-moderating issue.
Freakin morawns.

While I understand what your are saying, the self-moderating thing doesn't hold water exactly, given what the government has done at the border with walls, fences, electronics, and escalated staffing.

Call it political theater, perhaps, but it seems to me that the very same folks that have benefited from the cheap, illegal labor have found themselve at todds with the enforcement that has been carried on, not to mention untold lives lost through the desparation.

redhilltown - 8-6-2011 at 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ridge

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS...How could anybody dispute the guy?...

Easily: he's a Librul.

Low effort; enormous discredit with one easy word.

I would've said simple, but the connotation(simple-minded) would not please some.

You italicize the word "simple" and you call Bowden a liberal?

Your shift key and caps lock are obviously far ahead of what you have read by the man.