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'Double Wall Barrier' talk - Will GOP immigration rhetoric cost Latino votes?

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Ken Cooke - 10-20-2011 at 09:46 AM

WASHINGTON — With illegal immigration emerging as a defining issue in a GOP presidential race that was expected to be primarily focused on the nation's struggling economy, the talk on the issue — and the focus on sealing the border with Mexico — is not going down well with Latino voters.

Whoever becomes the nominee to oppose President Barack Obama's re-election bid next year will need support from Latinos — the largest and fastest growing U.S. minority group — to win the White House.

In 2008, Obama defeated Republican John McCain by more than a 2-1 margin among Hispanics — 67 percent to 31 percent, and became president. To win in 2012, his opponent likely would need to increase the Republican share to 40 percent, matching the more immigration-friendly George W. Bush when he was re-elected in 2004.

For months now, immigration concerns have followed presidential contenders to town hall meetings from Nevada to Iowa to New Hampshire. And in some ways, immigration has shaped the increasingly bitter Republican nomination fight more than any other issue, particularly in a crowded field where the conservative candidates have more in common than not.

And while conservative voters may be driving immigration chatter on the campaign trail, the candidates are stoking voter passions when given the opportunity.

continued at: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44970991/ns/politics-decision_20...

Ateo - 10-20-2011 at 09:57 AM

I hope it costs the GOP votes. I'm no Obama fan, but I'm not impressed with the republican candidates.

Cypress - 10-20-2011 at 11:04 AM

As I understand it, illegal aliens aren't allowed to vote. Regardless of ethnicity, anyone that is happy with the current administration policies will vote for a second term for Obama.

Kalypso - 10-20-2011 at 12:37 PM

I happened to hear the immigration part of the debate on Tuesday evening while making dinner. The profound (and I mean PROFOUND) lack of understanding displayed by nearly all the candidates was alarming. They have no clue, nor understanding of the border dynamics and/or environment.

Rick Perry got it and had a reasonably sound answer to the immigration question. He was the only one. He also got booed by the audience and shouted down by the other candidates, but he was the only one with actual experience with trying to manage a border. Their whole debate (and I'm using that term very loosely) was revolting and stomach churning :o

I would certainly hate to see some of the core economic issues and problems take a back seat to immigration in the upcoming election. It's a secondary issue at best.

Barry A. - 10-20-2011 at 02:37 PM

To the original question---------we are told by the Media it will cost us (GOP) votes--------I am not convinced----------surely Latinos are as smart as non-latinos when it comes to something so obvious as illegal immigration???? To me this is a really "Duh" issue--------the key word being "illegal". No sensible thinking person votes FOR "illegal" activity????? :light:

Barry

JESSE - 10-20-2011 at 04:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
To the original question---------we are told by the Media it will cost us (GOP) votes--------I am not convinced----------surely Latinos are as smart as non-latinos when it comes to something so obvious as illegal immigration???? To me this is a really "Duh" issue--------the key word being "illegal". No sensible thinking person votes FOR "illegal" activity????? :light:

Barry


Then you don't know latinos.

David K - 10-20-2011 at 04:11 PM

The legal latinos worked hard and payed the price to become honest hard working American residents. They have little respect for the illegals short-cutting the process, sneaking across our border and stealing jobs or getting the free health care at our hospitals! Latinos are also very down on abortion... By only scaring latinos with lies can democrats get their votes.

mtgoat666 - 10-20-2011 at 04:24 PM

if you build it, they will still come...

si, se puede!

p.s. the GOP candidates talk a hard line about immigration, but at the end of the day they are softies at heart, and they like cheap labor. they speaketh with forked toungues

JESSE - 10-20-2011 at 04:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The legal latinos worked hard and payed the price to become honest hard working American residents. They have little respect for the illegals short-cutting the process, sneaking across our border and stealing jobs or getting the free health care at our hospitals! Latinos are also very down on abortion... By only scaring latinos with lies can democrats get their votes.


LOL!!! you are clueless. Legal latinos are not against enforcing immigrations laws, but they do get peeed off at the way the issue is handled by many republicans. They don't care much for the closet racism behind this issue, and they see theres more than just enforcing immigration laws. As for your dumb and ignorant comments about illegals "sneaking" across your border and "stealing" your jobs, and getting "free" health care, perhaps you should blame first everyone from huge corporations to even your own politicians who hire illegals to work those jobs. YOU give them jobs, YOU don't do anything to stop your citizens or corporations from giving them jobs, and them you cry and b-tch like a little girl when they cross the border.

Whats easier? dealing with tens of millions of illegals, or dealing with thousands of companies that give them jobs? its a no brainer.

JESSE - 10-20-2011 at 04:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Latinos are also very down on abortion...


Another big lie, polls indicate support for pro choice and pro life among the latino community is aprox 50-50, pretty close to the non latino average.

JoeJustJoe - 10-20-2011 at 04:33 PM

In 2008 Obama got 67 percent of the Latino vote. That was up significantly where Bush got around 45 percent of the Latino vote in 2000 as the so-called compassionate conservative. ( I guess Bush was compassionate because he only deported a token handful of undocumented Aliens from the estimated millions that are in the USA with no papers) McCain barely got 30 percent of the Latino vote way down from Bush's Latino vote in 2004 and way way down from Bush's 45 percent in 2000.

Who can forget when Karl Rove kicked xenophobic Tom Tancredo out of the oval office and said, " Never darken the doorway of the white house again."

What happened next over the next few elections. The GOP use the "illegal immigration" issue as a wedge red meat issue to excite their base. The GOP couldn't talk about economic issues because they controlled the white house, and for much of the time they controlled the Senate, and they even controlled Congress for awhile except the last two years when Bush was in office.

Meanwhile the Latino voters, or Mexican-Americans voters like JoeJustJoe, or Jose like my mother callsl me. We see what the GOP is doing, and are seeing RED! We see the GOP hanging up undocumented Mexican aliens like they're " pinatas" and bashing away and blaming them for all the ills in America today, and many of us Latinos just think that's racist. Now granted JoeJustJoe(myself) if very liberal and some may say radical. ( I am a pure open borders advocate)

However, like Barry A says. There are a good percentage of Latinos who don't like undocumented Mexican aliens as much as white Americans, and want a fence put up, and want aliens to come into this country the right way. ( if there is such as fair right way?)

But when they see the hate coming from the ultra conservatives, and really you only see the ultra conservatives in power pulling the strings nowadays. Well the Latinos see all this hate directed towards undocumented Mexicans, and think these GOP republicans are just racist, and probably don't think these white conservatives like the legal Mexican immigrants or US born Mexican-American much either. ( the same thing happened in California over prop 187)

For example Latinos see the hate directed towards Rick Perry just because he did the right thing and granted in state tuition rates for undocumented Mexican immigrants kids who many of them lived in Texas most of their lives, and their families pay taxes. These kids did nothing wrong. If you want to blame somebody, blame the parent, but not the kids who want to successful, and already showing signs they will be very promising US citizens with a bright future.

So if the GOP can't even pass something as simple like the "Dream Act." Then I think the GOP is going to have trouble attracting Latino voters in 2012.

The GOP really needs to re-think their strategy, because the Latinos are the fastest growing minority, and the Latinos are in the heavy populated states that really count, and can swing elections.




[Edited on 10-20-2011 by JoeJustJoe]

Barry A. - 10-20-2011 at 04:39 PM

Jesse---------I think you are 100% correct in everything you say above EXCEPT the "closet racism", and I am a life-long Republican. But enforcing the laws that already exist is not something that we individually can do anything about, other than vote, cry out about (which certainly happens),or rat on violators when we see them, which I do with gusto, or would do if I saw it happening (and yes, it sure happens). The "racism" claim is bogus, IMO, and just used too stir up emotion, and as a cop-out to avoid talking about the issue in rational ways.

Enforce the border laws, and then we can address the millions of folks already here------in that order. You have the GOP figured wrong---------few are racists.

Barry

paranewbi - 10-20-2011 at 05:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The legal latinos worked hard and payed the price to become honest hard working American residents. They have little respect for the illegals short-cutting the process, sneaking across our border and stealing jobs or getting the free health care at our hospitals! Latinos are also very down on abortion... By only scaring latinos with lies can democrats get their votes.


LOL!!! you are clueless. Legal latinos are not against enforcing immigrations laws, but they do get peeed off at the way the issue is handled by many republicans. They don't care much for the closet racism behind this issue, and they see theres more than just enforcing immigration laws. As for your dumb and ignorant comments about illegals "sneaking" across your border and "stealing" your jobs, and getting "free" health care, perhaps you should blame first everyone from huge corporations to even your own politicians who hire illegals to work those jobs. YOU give them jobs, YOU don't do anything to stop your citizens or corporations from giving them jobs, and them you cry and b-tch like a little girl when they cross the border.

Whats easier? dealing with tens of millions of illegals, or dealing with thousands of companies that give them jobs? its a no brainer.


Its a no brainer to come up with that?
Leave him alone David K, it would be unfair to argue with a no brainer.

Ken Cooke - 10-20-2011 at 05:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
The "racism" claim is bogus, IMO,.

Barry


European and Canadian visa violators don't get the attention that Latinos do. This is what makes it a racial issue, Barry.

Barry A. - 10-20-2011 at 05:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
The "racism" claim is bogus, IMO,.

Barry


European and Canadian visa violators don't get the attention that Latinos do. This is what makes it a racial issue, Barry.


Ken--------Yes, probably true, but I think it is the size and scope of the problem with illegal Latinos that make it a priority issue, not the fact that they are simply Latino-----thus it is NOT a racial issue. If we had 12 million + or - Canadian Gringos in our Country illegally it would be a serious problem, and the same crys would be directed at them.

Barry

David K - 10-20-2011 at 05:56 PM

I guess my lifetime in Southern California working with Latinos gets me different answers than the newspapers you read Jesse... Sorry, I am not trying to argue with you... just exchanging information and another point-of-view... not making it personal, and racism has zero to with this.

mtgoat666 - 10-20-2011 at 06:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I guess my lifetime in Southern California working with Latinos gets me different answers than the newspapers you read Jesse... Sorry, I am not trying to argue with you... just exchanging information and another point-of-view... not making it personal, and racism has zero to with this.


dk: perhaps you should read "black like me" before you profess to know the latino experience in usa

JESSE - 10-20-2011 at 06:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Jesse---------I think you are 100% correct in everything you say above EXCEPT the "closet racism", and I am a life-long Republican. But enforcing the laws that already exist is not something that we individually can do anything about, other than vote, cry out about (which certainly happens),or rat on violators when we see them, which I do with gusto, or would do if I saw it happening (and yes, it sure happens). The "racism" claim is bogus, IMO, and just used too stir up emotion, and as a cop-out to avoid talking about the issue in rational ways.

Enforce the border laws, and then we can address the millions of folks already here------in that order. You have the GOP figured wrong---------few are racists.

Barry


I think i should be more clear, i should say SOME republicans, not all. And i don't see anybody avoiding any talk, i think all sides want this discussion. Problem is, those few republican closet racist leaders destroy any chance for a civil intelligent debate because most latinos can see right tru them even do their fellow republicans can't.

JESSE - 10-20-2011 at 06:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I guess my lifetime in Southern California working with Latinos gets me different answers than the newspapers you read Jesse... Sorry, I am not trying to argue with you... just exchanging information and another point-of-view... not making it personal, and racism has zero to with this.


Yeah, the "i have many black friends" vouche is useless in real life.

tripledigitken - 10-20-2011 at 06:29 PM

Jesse,

Its all about votes thats it. Making a case of one party over another is naive.

Barry A. - 10-20-2011 at 06:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Jesse---------I think you are 100% correct in everything you say above EXCEPT the "closet racism", and I am a life-long Republican. But enforcing the laws that already exist is not something that we individually can do anything about, other than vote, cry out about (which certainly happens),or rat on violators when we see them, which I do with gusto, or would do if I saw it happening (and yes, it sure happens). The "racism" claim is bogus, IMO, and just used too stir up emotion, and as a cop-out to avoid talking about the issue in rational ways.

Enforce the border laws, and then we can address the millions of folks already here------in that order. You have the GOP figured wrong---------few are racists.

Barry


I think i should be more clear, i should say SOME republicans, not all. And i don't see anybody avoiding any talk, i think all sides want this discussion. Problem is, those few republican closet racist leaders destroy any chance for a civil intelligent debate because most latinos can see right tru them even do their fellow republicans can't.


You are making some huge assumptions, Jesse, when you say that even a few of "the leaders" in the GOP have a racist motive--------how in the world do these "leaders" defend themselves----against assumptions???? That is a lose-lose situation for them (which is often the case when "racism" is claimed).

Barry

Cypress - 10-20-2011 at 06:37 PM

As soon as the Democrat crew realize they are losing the debate, out pops the "race card". Equating the illegal immigrants from Canada to the illegal immigrants from Mexico? Guess math isn't one of your strong points.:D

mtgoat666 - 10-20-2011 at 06:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Jesse---------I think you are 100% correct in everything you say above EXCEPT the "closet racism", and I am a life-long Republican. But enforcing the laws that already exist is not something that we individually can do anything about, other than vote, cry out about (which certainly happens),or rat on violators when we see them, which I do with gusto, or would do if I saw it happening (and yes, it sure happens). The "racism" claim is bogus, IMO, and just used too stir up emotion, and as a cop-out to avoid talking about the issue in rational ways.

Enforce the border laws, and then we can address the millions of folks already here------in that order. You have the GOP figured wrong---------few are racists.

Barry


I think i should be more clear, i should say SOME republicans, not all. And i don't see anybody avoiding any talk, i think all sides want this discussion. Problem is, those few republican closet racist leaders destroy any chance for a civil intelligent debate because most latinos can see right tru them even do their fellow republicans can't.


You are making some huge assumptions, Jesse, when you say that even a few of "the leaders" in the GOP have a racist motive--------how in the world do these "leaders" defend themselves----against assumptions???? That is a lose-lose situation for them (which is often the case when "racism" is claimed).

Barry


barry:
you can't explain away rick perry and his hunting club signage that he left up for many years.
have you seen the tea baggers vitriol toward Obama? the racist signage at their marches during the midterm election?
have you seen the racist conservatives in nomadlandia? take a look at the OT forum and read what fulano writes, greench1t writes, skeet writes, mr bile writes, etc. even so-called liberals like joeidiotjoe are antisemite bigots.
racism is everywhere, always has been.

Dave - 10-20-2011 at 06:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
If we had 12 million + or - Canadian Gringos in our Country illegally it would be a serious problem


As thousands of food and beverage waiters would be starving. ;)

JESSE - 10-20-2011 at 09:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Jesse---------I think you are 100% correct in everything you say above EXCEPT the "closet racism", and I am a life-long Republican. But enforcing the laws that already exist is not something that we individually can do anything about, other than vote, cry out about (which certainly happens),or rat on violators when we see them, which I do with gusto, or would do if I saw it happening (and yes, it sure happens). The "racism" claim is bogus, IMO, and just used too stir up emotion, and as a cop-out to avoid talking about the issue in rational ways.

Enforce the border laws, and then we can address the millions of folks already here------in that order. You have the GOP figured wrong---------few are racists.

Barry


I think i should be more clear, i should say SOME republicans, not all. And i don't see anybody avoiding any talk, i think all sides want this discussion. Problem is, those few republican closet racist leaders destroy any chance for a civil intelligent debate because most latinos can see right tru them even do their fellow republicans can't.


You are making some huge assumptions, Jesse, when you say that even a few of "the leaders" in the GOP have a racist motive--------how in the world do these "leaders" defend themselves----against assumptions???? That is a lose-lose situation for them (which is often the case when "racism" is claimed).

Barry


I am pro securing borders, stopping illegal immigration, and holding goverments accountable. And yet when i hear many republicans i feel that anger, that "this is our country" feeling they have. If it was only about securing the borders i would support them, but its not. I feel a lot of hypocrisy from them and i am not even a democrat or a leftie.

makana.gabriel - 10-20-2011 at 10:48 PM

The rhetoric is base and disgusting Ken! I think it will take another generation or two before Latinos connect with Republicans.

Kalypso - 10-20-2011 at 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
I am pro securing borders, stopping illegal immigration, and holding goverments accountable. And yet when i hear many republicans i feel that anger, that "this is our country" feeling they have. If it was only about securing the borders i would support them, but its not. I feel a lot of hypocrisy from them and i am not even a democrat or a leftie.


Amen to that. What's happened in AZ, AL and GA under Republican administrations was not based on securing the border. It had far deeper roots based in something most Americans would perfer not to confront, admit or deal with. It is still very much a country divided by race and class

...or more

Ken Cooke - 10-21-2011 at 07:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by makana.gabriel
The rhetoric is base and disgusting Ken! I think it will take another generation or two before Latinos connect with Republicans.


Ever watch the Univision and/or Telemundo news? Repubican is definitely a bad word with the broadcasts, and I can certainly understand why. Me no vote Republican. :light:

Barry A. - 10-21-2011 at 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by makana.gabriel
The rhetoric is base and disgusting Ken! I think it will take another generation or two before Latinos connect with Republicans.


Ever watch the Univision and/or Telemundo news? Repubican is definitely a bad word with the broadcasts, and I can certainly understand why. Me no vote Republican. :light:


Hmmmmm, and how is that working our for ya, Ken???

"Racism"--------a truly over-worked word if there ever was one!!!

Barry

Cypress - 10-21-2011 at 12:46 PM

"Me no vote Republican!" Good for you! You're just another brick in the wall. :D

Ken Cooke - 10-21-2011 at 01:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by makana.gabriel
The rhetoric is base and disgusting Ken! I think it will take another generation or two before Latinos connect with Republicans.


Ever watch the Univision and/or Telemundo news? Repubican is definitely a bad word with the broadcasts, and I can certainly understand why. Me no vote Republican. :light:


Hmmmmm, and how is that working our for ya, Ken???

"Racism"--------a truly over-worked word if there ever was one!!!

Barry


Racism? Did you watch the CNN Debates? When Gov. Perry called Cain, "Brother" I shook my head and said, "Who is a victim of his own politics?"LOL If you don't know, Gov. Perry's family camped at "-iggerHead, TX" for years.

Cypress - 10-21-2011 at 02:47 PM

Ken Cooke, Go ahead and vote for Obama again. Perry called Cain "brother". Oh yea! With all the real questions to be asked; to name a few, "Fast and Furious", the loans to defunct energy companies, auto company bailouts etc. Perry called Cain "brother". Hang your hat on that! And vote for Obama. Good God in heaven! Ignore how incompetent the whole crew is and put 'em back in for another disasterous term. But I see! Perry called Cain "brother".

Barry A. - 10-21-2011 at 02:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by makana.gabriel
The rhetoric is base and disgusting Ken! I think it will take another generation or two before Latinos connect with Republicans.


Ever watch the Univision and/or Telemundo news? Repubican is definitely a bad word with the broadcasts, and I can certainly understand why. Me no vote Republican. :light:


Hmmmmm, and how is that working our for ya, Ken???

"Racism"--------a truly over-worked word if there ever was one!!!

Barry


Racism? Did you watch the CNN Debates? When Gov. Perry called Cain, "Brother" I shook my head and said, "Who is a victim of his own politics?"LOL If you don't know, Gov. Perry's family camped at "-iggerHead, TX" for years.


Uh huh, and oh my Gawd and Jeeeezo, there is a mountain range in Wyoming called the GRAND TETONS, of all things, and we all don't change it---------I guess we we are ALL anti-feminine sexists pigs!!!!!

Come onnnnnnnnn!!!!!! :rolleyes: :lol:

Barry

mtgoat666 - 10-21-2011 at 03:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by makana.gabriel
The rhetoric is base and disgusting Ken! I think it will take another generation or two before Latinos connect with Republicans.


Ever watch the Univision and/or Telemundo news? Repubican is definitely a bad word with the broadcasts, and I can certainly understand why. Me no vote Republican. :light:


Hmmmmm, and how is that working our for ya, Ken???

"Racism"--------a truly over-worked word if there ever was one!!!

Barry


Racism? Did you watch the CNN Debates? When Gov. Perry called Cain, "Brother" I shook my head and said, "Who is a victim of his own politics?"LOL If you don't know, Gov. Perry's family camped at "-iggerHead, TX" for years.


Uh huh, and oh my Gawd and Jeeeezo, there is a mountain range in Wyoming called the GRAND TETONS, of all things, and we all don't change it---------I guess we we are ALL anti-feminine sexists pigs!!!!!

Come onnnnnnnnn!!!!!! :rolleyes: :lol:

Barry


barry:
what acceptable explanation is there for perry and his family leaving the n1ggerhhead sign on their property for so many years?

David K - 10-21-2011 at 03:52 PM

Brother Republican is how I took that... Why do democrats refuse to live by Dr. King's words?

Ken, aren't you my 'Baja Brother' or 'Four Wheeling Brother' as well as my good friend? I never treated you differently than any of my other friends and I don't give a rat's behind that your sun tan is darker than mine or what your politics are or that you are going to vote for that ***** again!

Despite what folks who don't me say here on Nomad, I don't choose friends or help people that only vote conservative... I may talk politics with passion, but I never let politics interfere with friendships... and while it is easy to type our thoughts here, let's all base ideas about each other on how we act in person, and not the suddon bursts of text on Nomad.

Barry A. - 10-21-2011 at 04:29 PM

Senior Goat-------

The same reason that we, the people of the USofA, leave many geographical names in place even tho they may have conotations that some interpret as "offensive"---------PC gone wild!!!! It WAS the name of the place, and had been so for years. Besides, there WERE explanations by the Perry folks, but those that wish him harm refuse to except them. So what else is new???

"Racism" will last as long as some folks want it too, by continually bringing it up and branding people with it----------I say lets get on with life, and forget this stuff--------there is lots in our history that we can carp about, and some do, but what is the point?--------all very counterproductive, if you ask me.

Barry

sanquintinsince73 - 10-21-2011 at 04:38 PM

Historically Democrats pander to Latinos and African Americans in return for votes. In minority communities the word Republican is a bad word.
For many years when Latinos register to vote, they automatically register as Democrats. They've been brainwashed by the Democrats that the big, bad, Republicans are a racist bunch who could care less about minorities.

Aside from the Navy families, my area is almost 100% Mexican and there is excitement in the air due to Spanish news reports that Obama is going to temporarily lower the cost of obtaining U.S. citizenship from $800.00 to $150.00. Guess what all these people will register as and just in time for next years elections.

JESSE - 10-21-2011 at 04:40 PM

:lol: republicans destroyed their economy and killed the good image the US had abroad and now they call Obama incompetent?:lol::lol::lol:

Barry A. - 10-21-2011 at 04:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
:lol: republicans destroyed their economy and killed the good image the US had abroad and now they call Obama incompetent?:lol::lol::lol:


I guess you have forgotten about Barney Frank and Chris Dodd (Dodd/Frank legislation) and the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac debacle-------not a Republican initiative.

As for overseas???-----they are now laughing at us :P

I, for one, never called Obama "incompetent"-----quite the opposite, he appears to be on track unfortunately with what he said he would do, but Repubs are trying to stop him with all our energy.

Barry

sanquintinsince73 - 10-21-2011 at 04:52 PM

But back to the Latino vote, historically Latinos do not come out in great numbers to vote. The Latino vote for the last Presidential election was significant because the "Hopey Changey" guy lead people to believe that a vote for Mr. McCain and Ms. Palin was a vote for George Bush.

norte - 10-21-2011 at 05:12 PM

Geeze David. Your knowledge of politics is about as in depth as your knowledge of "luxury" hotels. Quit giving conservatives a bad name.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
:lol: republicans destroyed their economy and killed the good image the US had abroad and now they call Obama incompetent?:lol::lol::lol:


My business was thriving as were most everyone else's until after the democrats took control of congress in Jan., 2007. Congress controls the budget, but Bush was still president for 2 more years... as planned, with media help, Bush got the blame. Barney Frank and his crew blackmailed banks into lending money to people who couldn't pay back the loans... there is a lot more to this, but what's the use, as facts aren't as dramatic as name calling and blaming Bush. I wish Obama would get a backbone and accept that his socialist/ communist theories on governemnt control and dividing the people against each other are failed ideas and harmful to everyone (except the few party members at the top... and the union bosses that deliver votes).

At least Clinton had enough brains to see what the people wanted, changed his path, dropped socialized medicine (Hillarycare), accepted welfair reform and other Republican ideas created by Newt and the new congress of 1994.. and even made them his own for credit, and it got him re-elected.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-21-2011 at 05:18 PM

This is a very Interesting Thread with some very Interesting Information.


Let us Stop Blaming Bush and the Republicans for everything that has happened in the Past and get down to some real time changes that will help this Country get back on "A Respectful Road".

It will be many years before the Immigration problem will be solved. My idea is close the Border and start Deporting all Criminal s of Mexican Descent that do not have Legal Papers

RACISIM

I still have not had anyone give me a definition of Racisim.

Racist I assume is one person who does not Like another person because he./She is of a different Skin Color.

Nowdays the Liberal Bellys of the left have adopted the Word and use it regulary aganist anyone that {In their Minds } maybe being a Racist.

I think maybe it is more for the "Name Caller" than the one being singled out.

The Whites in the United States of America will never be Black!

The Blacks in the United States of America will never be White.

The Chinese of the United States of America will always have Slant Eyes

I grew up in this country and was raised up to Respect sll people and not to make Judgements on their Words but look to their Actions !!

Rick Perry is going to be the nest president of this Country and you had better beleive it! One of the basic reasons is his Character. How stupid it is to think that a name on a Rock would change a persons Vote !If so Stupid Person.

Skeet/Loreto

Old Age ani't no place for Sisses

mtgoat666 - 10-21-2011 at 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Barney Frank and his crew blackmailed banks into lending money to people who couldn't pay back the loans...


blackmailed?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

dk: what info did barney frank threaten to release?

JESSE - 10-21-2011 at 05:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Rick Perry is going to be the nest president of this Country and you had better beleive it!


Everyone around the world that wants the US to tank is betting he or another republican wins. I on the other hand would like to see the US back on its feet, and thus the last thing you need is another republican dumb ass in the white house.

JoeJustJoe - 10-21-2011 at 06:10 PM

Actually it was Phil Gramm's(R) " Leach-Bliley" act that is most to blame for the subprime mortgage crisis. It lead to repealing major portions of the Glass-Steagall Act. Although Clinton signed the bill. There was no problems when Clinton was in office. The whole housing meltdown happened during Bush's watch. The puck always stops with the President.

It also didn't help with Gramm's support of the " Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, which lead to all the derivative transactions and things like credit default swaps and other highly leveraged derivatives.

However, if you ask a typical GOP, aka Tea Party member. They will blame Barney Frank, the gay guy. The GOP members especially like to blame the Blacks and other minorities. They also blame Jimmy Carter's " Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) he signed in office. Of course the CRA loans were only a small percentage of the total amount of loans that failed. But hey, " lets blame the Blacks and Mexicans anyway," seems to be he message from the GOP.

GOP hostility towards minorities has actually got worst since Obama got in the office. It's no wonder Blacks vote democrat 90 percent strong even when there is a white democrat running. It's no wonder why Latinos vote almost 70 strong for democrats. The democrats also have most of the Jewish and Asian vote. I'm sure the Democrats have the Muslim vote too, but I don't actually have the numbers. If it's anything less than 80 percent I would be surprise.

Islamophobia is off the charts in the USA espeically in the GOP circle. Sharia Law? Really? Is there a need for Sharia Law in the USA? Well apparently many racist southern red states that always vote Republican think so.

Cypress - 10-21-2011 at 06:18 PM

This next election is gonna be a big suprise to a bunch of dems.;D The mid term elections should have been a wake-up call. Can't wait!;D

Dey B Havin All Dem Der Votes ?

MrBillM - 10-21-2011 at 08:38 PM

With SO many Votes going for the Donkey party and a record turnout, B.O. could only beat Crazy Old Johnny Mac by Three percent.

A repeat of that Hawaiian Punch is unlikely given the probable economic numbers.

Ken Cooke - 10-21-2011 at 08:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Ken Cooke, Go ahead and vote for Obama again. Perry called Cain "brother". Oh yea! With all the real questions to be asked; to name a few, "Fast and Furious", the loans to defunct energy companies, auto company bailouts etc. Perry called Cain "brother". Hang your hat on that! And vote for Obama. Good God in heaven! Ignore how incompetent the whole crew is and put 'em back in for another disasterous term. But I see! Perry called Cain "brother".


What is wrong with loaning Chrysler and GM money? They paid the money back, didn't they? :light:

The 'incompetent' phrase is what the Republicans use against Obama, but they don't have any clear ideas of their own at the moment. So, they make stuff up.

Ken Cooke - 10-21-2011 at 09:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

GOP hostility towards minorities has actually got worst since Obama got in the office. It's no wonder Blacks vote democrat 90 percent strong even when there is a white democrat running. It's no wonder why Latinos vote almost 70 strong for democrats.


@Joe - Why do Cuban-Americans vote primarily Rupublican? I know that many of the Cubans here were not all wealthy. As for African-American voters, I get irritated by Republican logic to the point of turning off to their simplistic opinions and their world-view. To each his own.

Barry A. - 10-21-2011 at 09:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

GOP hostility towards minorities has actually got worst since Obama got in the office. It's no wonder Blacks vote democrat 90 percent strong even when there is a white democrat running. It's no wonder why Latinos vote almost 70 strong for democrats.


@Joe - Why do Cuban-Americans vote primarily Rupublican? I know that many of the Cubans here were not all wealthy. As for African-American voters, I get irritated by Republican logic to the point of turning off to their simplistic opinions and their world-view. To each his own.


Simplicity is the essence of life, Ken. The most progress is normally made when it is simple, and therefore understandable. When complications are introduced it is then that things come to a standstill.

Embrace simplicity-----------it is so invigorating!!! :biggrin:

Barry

Ken Cooke - 10-21-2011 at 09:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

GOP hostility towards minorities has actually got worst since Obama got in the office. It's no wonder Blacks vote democrat 90 percent strong even when there is a white democrat running. It's no wonder why Latinos vote almost 70 strong for democrats.


@Joe - Why do Cuban-Americans vote primarily Rupublican? I know that many of the Cubans here were not all wealthy. As for African-American voters, I get irritated by Republican logic to the point of turning off to their simplistic opinions and their world-view. To each his own.


Simplicity is the essence of life, Ken. The most progress is normally made when it is simple, and therefore understandable. When complications are introduced it is then that things come to a standstill.

Embrace simplicity-----------it is so invigorating!!! :biggrin:

Barry


I have friends that are Nicaraguan-Americans, and while I understand their disdain for Daniel Ortega, I don't "get it" regarding the whole conservative line of thinking. Sorry, just me.

Barry A. - 10-21-2011 at 09:16 PM

:lol::lol::lol: You, Ken, and about 50% of the population-------I guess that is what makes the world go around.

Love the pics of your vehicle on that "other" thread. Beautiful, and I am envious.

Barry

Ken Cooke - 10-21-2011 at 09:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
:lol::lol::lol: You, Ken, and about 50% of the population-------I guess that is what makes the world go around.

Love the pics of your vehicle on that "other" thread. Beautiful, and I am envious.

Barry



No disrespect, Barry. I respect all 'respectful' points of view.

MTV Tr3s

Ken Cooke - 10-21-2011 at 09:47 PM

Just watched Puerto Rican singer Luis Fonsi give his opinion of the Immigration debate. Trust me, he was not pro-Joe Arpayo.:lol:

Luis Fonsi

JESSE - 10-21-2011 at 11:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Rick Perry is going to be the nest president of this Country and you had better beleive it!


Everyone around the world that wants the US to tank is betting he or another republican wins. I on the other hand would like to see the US back on its feet, and thus the last thing you need is another republican dumb burro in the white house.


So Obama is a finacial and political genius, huh? Oh lord, help us!!!


He didn't create the mess, thats for sure.

sanquintinsince73 - 10-21-2011 at 11:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Just watched Puerto Rican singer Luis Fonsi give his opinion of the Immigration debate. Trust me, he was not pro-Joe Arpayo.:lol:

Luis Fonsi


Actually, any Latin musician will speak out publicly in support of illegals because they realize that as the majority minority, Mexicans, legal and illegal, buy their music. Univision and Telemundo are forever praising illegals on the air but ask them how many Mexicans are in upper management at their stations in Miami and L.A.......zilch.

Bajafun777 - 10-22-2011 at 01:43 AM

Very easy to solve this immigration issue----Whatever the immigration laws are towards Americans of another Country, then the same immigration laws apply to their citizens trying to get into the United States. Easy, Fair and Stops all of the name calling, as if it is not good enough for our United States citizens it won't be good for others from other Countries too!!
See simple and sweet takes, as it takes all the name calling and finger pointing out. The same goes for investments, buying of land, etc. Make a level field for United States citizens before doing anything else for any other Country!! Ok, problem solved and maybe just maybe we can all just open a cold one and enjoy it together,LOL. Take Care & Travel Safe--- "No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

yellowklr - 10-22-2011 at 04:21 AM

Neither side wants to really tackle the Illegal Immigration issue/Border

I will say this It will be the saddest day of my life if Obama gets elected again

Open yours eyes people he is the WORST President in History

If you have to ask why you are in denial

oxxo - 10-22-2011 at 04:35 AM

To get back on topic and answer Ken's question, yes in my opinion, GOP rhetoric will cost them Mexican Latino votes.

Cypress - 10-22-2011 at 04:55 AM

Mexican Latinos will vote for their best interests. Their best interests are the same as the majority of US citizens. The 2012 election will be a landslide victory for the GOP.:D

norte - 10-22-2011 at 09:22 AM

GAG, I hope you can vote better than you can spell and write!

You seem to be spewing the radio line more than trying to understand history. A more efficient government is needed to be sure....but one that is rooted in fact not emotion. There is a place for government in this country young man.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Rick Perry is going to be the nest president of this Country and you had better beleive it!


Everyone around the world that wants the US to tank is betting he or another republican wins. I on the other hand would like to see the US back on its feet, and thus the last thing you need is another republican dumb burro in the white house.


So Obama is a finacial and political genius, huh? Oh lord, help us!!!


He didn't create the mess, thats for sure.


He was in the senate that came to power in '07 (well for a year then he statred running for prez.)... Once in power, he just poured gasoline onto the fire... and that's not how you put out a fire.

Businesses create jobs, not government. Governemnt is supposed to provide conditions for business to prosper (so more people go to work and the economy groes, more taxes are paid). This government tries to hurt buisness with its regulations and taxes.

Ronald Reagan inherited a far worse economy in 1981 created by Jimmy Carter (remember the 'misery index'?)... and in two years (working with the democrats in charge of congress and speaking to the Americans) turned the mess around. Reagan didn't keep blaming the previous president like Obama constantly does.) Reagan looked to the future always, and he loved America... we had the biggest peacetime growth of our economy and more jobs created than ever in our history!

People, a free people and free of government oppression, are what make America great! :light::bounce:

mtgoat666 - 10-22-2011 at 09:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Rick Perry is going to be the nest president of this Country and you had better beleive it!


Everyone around the world that wants the US to tank is betting he or another republican wins. I on the other hand would like to see the US back on its feet, and thus the last thing you need is another republican dumb burro in the white house.


So Obama is a finacial and political genius, huh? Oh lord, help us!!!


He didn't create the mess, thats for sure.


He was in the senate that came to power in '07 (well for a year then he statred running for prez.)... Once in power, he just poured gasoline onto the fire... and that's not how you put out a fire.


dk: stimulus spending was meant to be gasoline for a fire that was sputtering due to housing crisis and bush actions that were extinguishing the fire.
the stimulus spending and govt spending are what has kept economy afloat during this period of stalled economy due to actions of el shrub.
good use of gasoline!

the economy will recover as soon as housing problems work themselves out. people (consumers) are till dealing with their housing problems,... it will take time, taxes have nothing to do with housing resolution.

[Edited on 10-22-2011 by mtgoat666]

JoeJustJoe - 10-22-2011 at 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

GOP hostility towards minorities has actually got worst since Obama got in the office. It's no wonder Blacks vote democrat 90 percent strong even when there is a white democrat running. It's no wonder why Latinos vote almost 70 strong for democrats.


@Joe - Why do Cuban-Americans vote primarily Rupublican? I know that many of the Cubans here were not all wealthy. As for African-American voters, I get irritated by Republican logic to the point of turning off to their simplistic opinions and their world-view. To each his own.


Ken this article below explains a little bit why Cuban-Americans vote Republican. Do give you a better answer I would probably have to answer it the right way in the "OT" area.

But to briefly quote my Puerto Rican friend, and you have to remember the Cubans and Puerto Ricans really don't like each other very much. Some Puerto Ricans feel the Cubans think they're too good, and some Cubans feel Puerto Ricans are low class to put it bluntly.

So according to my Puerto Rican friend he says Cubans vote Republicans because they think they are all rich. And he said, he never met a Cuban that didn't say that they or their family use to be rich until Castro took it all away from them, and the Cubans were supposedly very bitter about that. The thing is according to my friend, they all couldn't have been all rich in Cuba, and over here they don't have much, but they still act like they're rich.

To put it nicer I would say many Cuban do pride themselves on education, hard work, upward mobility, sexual conservatism or so they claim, and Cubans especially the older ones have a hatred towards Castro, or anything remotely or reminds them of Communism or socialism. Of course the younger Cubans think a little differently, and some do vote democrat.

I have some Cuban friends, and the talk seems to be more about careers, money, and adult toys. With my Mexican-Family, especially with extended Latino family first and second generation. We talk about family, not our jobs, unless it's about the kids, and then a little bragging goes on.
_____________________________________
Why Cuban Americans Vote Republican

PHOENIX (By Carlos Miller, Miami Beach 411) March 23, 2010 ― Probably because they did not like the communist regime in Cuba and identify with the Republican party's strong anti-communist, pro-capitalist point of view.

To understand Miami Cuban politics, one must go back to the Bay of Pigs invasion, which some Miami Cubans will tell you that President John F. Kennedy blundered.

read the rest here:

http://www.hispanic.cc/why_cubans_vote_republican.htm

[Edited on 10-22-2011 by JoeJustJoe]

David K - 10-22-2011 at 10:17 AM

:lol::lol::lol:

sanquintinsince73 - 10-22-2011 at 10:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

GOP hostility towards minorities has actually got worst since Obama got in the office. It's no wonder Blacks vote democrat 90 percent strong even when there is a white democrat running. It's no wonder why Latinos vote almost 70 strong for democrats.


@Joe - Why do Cuban-Americans vote primarily Rupublican? I know that many of the Cubans here were not all wealthy. As for African-American voters, I get irritated by Republican logic to the point of turning off to their simplistic opinions and their world-view. To each his own.


Ken this article below explains a little bit why Cuban-Americans vote Republican. Do give you a better answer I would probably have to answer it the right way in the "OT" area.

But to briefly quote my Puerto Rican friend, and you have to remember the Cubans and Puerto Ricans really don't like each other very much. Some Puerto Ricans feel the Cubans think they're too good, and some Cubans feel Puerto Ricans are low class to put it bluntly.

So according to my Puerto Rican friend he says Cubans vote Republicans because they think they are all rich. And he said, he never met a Cuban that didn't say that they or their family use to be rich until Castro took it all away from them, and the Cubans were very bitter about that. The thing is according to my friend, they all couldn't have been all rich in Cuba, and over here they don't have much, but they still act like they're rich.

To put it nicer I would say many Cuban do pride themselves on education, hard work, upward mobility, sexual conservatism or so they claim, and Cubans especially the older ones have a hatred towards Castro, or anything remotely or reminds them of Communism or socialism. Of course the younger Cubans think a little differently, and some do vote democrat.
_____________________________________
Why Cuban Americans Vote Republican

PHOENIX (By Carlos Miller, Miami Beach 411) March 23, 2010 ― Probably because they did not like the communist regime in Cuba and identify with the Republican party's strong anti-communist, pro-capitalist point of view.

To understand Miami Cuban politics, one must go back to the Bay of Pigs invasion, which some Miami Cubans will tell you that President John F. Kennedy blundered.

read the rest here:

http://www.hispanic.cc/why_cubans_vote_republican.htm

But to briefly quote my Puerto Rican friend, and you have to remember the Cubans and Puerto Ricans really don't like each other very much. Some Puerto Ricans feel the Cubans think they're too good, and some Cubans feel Puerto Ricans are low class to put it bluntly.

Reminded me of a joke we had in L.A........
If you fill the L.A. coliseum to capacity (about 80K) and you place a Cuban at one end zone and a PuertoRican at the opposite end zone, they'll find each other and start arguing.

Barry A. - 10-22-2011 at 11:23 AM

Norte---------Of course we need a strong "government", but it is terribly bloated now, and that is not working out too well for us, or the business community (and I am a retired Fed. employee). There is very limited money, if you hadn't noticed----------

David K has it essentially right, historically---------despite the small spelling errors, many of which I make too.

Love the Puerto Rican vs Cuban joke---------sooooo true. (Oh my gawd, I am sounding racist !?!?!?!?!).

By the way, 28 Countries now use the "flat tax", most of them in eastern Europe where they only too well know the downside of Socialism and Communism---------they learned their lesson--- some here did not (reads: most Democrats, and some Republicans). Their economies are beginning to flourish-------our's is stagnant------:light: Duh, maybe flat taxes work???????? Of course they do, and Steve Forbes was right all along.

Barry

norte - 10-22-2011 at 11:41 AM

go it right? read what Bloomburg (respected Conservative reporting) said in 2009. I guess you will next say that our current economy is worse?

Barry A. - 10-22-2011 at 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by norte
go it right? read what Bloomburg (respected Conservative reporting) said in 2009. I guess you will next say that our current economy is worse?


Lots of different opinions, depending on who you read or talk to-----and all have parts of the complicated mess right, and some wrong. There is plenty of blame to go around, that is for sure, and we will never know the whole story completely-------which almost always is the case. Mistakes were made, the economy collasped, but the present Administration has done precious little to help any recovery--------and the evidence of THAT is all about us. We need somebody with business experience, apparently, to make the right decisions and get the business cycle going strong again-----taxes are a huge part of that----------I do not believe the Keynesian economics work very well, and the Obama team has worshipped at the feet of Keynesians for two long. It is (past) time to start using some of Art Laffer's 'supply-side' ideas and get things moving again, the housing Market aside----that will take a lot longer, for sure, IMO. I try and never forget that 90% of the folks are working, and that is a huge Market.

Barry

David K - 10-22-2011 at 12:09 PM

The only things I spell correctly (unless a make a typo) are Baja places!:light:

Ken Cooke - 10-22-2011 at 01:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
_____________________________________
Why Cuban Americans Vote Republican

PHOENIX (By Carlos Miller, Miami Beach 411) March 23, 2010 ― Probably because they did not like the communist regime in Cuba and identify with the Republican party's strong anti-communist, pro-capitalist point of view.

To understand Miami Cuban politics, one must go back to the Bay of Pigs invasion, which some Miami Cubans will tell you that President John F. Kennedy blundered.

read the rest here:

http://www.hispanic.cc/why_cubans_vote_republican.htm

[Edited on 10-22-2011 by JoeJustJoe]


Thanks for the article. I have friends from many different parts of Latin America, and country by country - region by region, their views differ dramatically. Makes me want to do more research into this phenomenon. But, thanks for the insight.

Cypress - 10-22-2011 at 02:44 PM

Anybody ever heard of "The Bay of Pigs"? Bay of what? Oops! Probably not.:biggrin:

Some said that ............

MrBillM - 10-22-2011 at 04:26 PM

JFK was convicted and Sentenced 11-22-63 for the deaths at The Bay of Pigs.

We'll never know, but it was a common thought at the time despite the Warren Whitewash.

If they'd known what was coming ( from LBJ ) they might have reconsidered the whole business.

But, that's life as they say. The future is uncertain.

Eat Dessert first.

Cypress - 10-22-2011 at 05:06 PM

JFK promised US air support for the Bay of Pigs invasion. He didn't do as promised. And the US? The US is still paying the price for that lie.

Iflyfish - 10-22-2011 at 07:14 PM

Here find an excellent analysis of the problems associated with illegal immigration. The issue is not just that we have people crossing our borders illegally or not returning after their visa’s expire, we have over 12,000,000 people now living illegally in the USofA.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec..HTML%20

The most recent research by the Pew Memorial Trust finds that illegal immigration is down sharply.
http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2010/09/02/illegal-imm...

Deportations have increased significantly
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/apr/23/ICE-deportations-...

It is clear to this writer that a perfect storm is now on us with high unemployment and a political system awash in money with little incentive to address the real underlying structural problems of the boom and bust US economy. Immigrants are always targeted in these circumstances as people look for someone to blame. The US has a very long history of this. In saying this I do not ignore the fact that illegal immigration is a real problem. I just think that reproductive rights, lowering taxes, deregulating every industry in our country, criminal justice and the support of the military industrial complex are red herrings dragged before us each election cycle.

The real underlying problem as I see it is that the governing institutions of this nation are wholly owned subsidiaries of Corporations. The only way I see to address this very real structural problem is to take back the PUBLIC AIRWAVES and make illegal private funding of political advertising. Require Corporate owned Media Enterprises to provide free time to all political candidates to address the issues of concern to the people of this country. The Air Waves of our nation are OWNED by us, the people, the Corporations pay us for the use of these airwaves and we have a right and responsibility to regulate them. We have a right to define what they can and cannot do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYvcCfNmiS8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSPloedpwWk

Until or unless we take back our airwaves and their impact on electoral politics we will not see any changes in the way we are now governed. It is clear that Congress, who controls the way public policy is made, is now so awash with special interest money that the public interest is not the same interest as those who we have elected to govern us. Examples are that a majority of Americans favor rolling back the tax cuts that have been given to the richest 1% of the population who now control over 45% of all income in this country. Yet Congress cannot pass laws that require a more fair taxation of these people because nearly all of one political party has signed an agreement that they will NEVER sign a bill that increases taxes. Further NEITHER political party has taken the necessary step of changing the filibuster rule of the Senate, which now requires that 60 votes be required to pass any legislation, the Constitution calls for a simple 51 majority vote. The President can propose legislation but Congress must pass that legislation.

My point is that though illegal immigration is a real problem, the focus on that problem excludes focus on the underlying structural problems that have created a year round political campaign in which elected officials must each day accumulate x Millions of Dollars for their and their political parties campaign war chests and ALL VOTES are based solely upon political considerations, the real interests of the people be damned.

I believe that the legitimate grievances of the public, whose real earnings have decreased over the past thirty years, whose government does not reflect their very real needs, is being expressed by both the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street Movement, who have way more in common than they realize, except that the Corporate Media, FOX etc. have defined the issues of the Tea Party to be aligned with the Republican Party.

In my view real progress is being made on illegal immigration issues, the economy and foreign policy. It will take at least six years more for us to come out of this recession and even then we will have chronic unemployment. It is in the interest of both Corporate Media and elected Politicians to keep things as they are, for the money to keep flowing into political campaigns and for the public to be distracted by red herrings.

Iflyfish

Barry A. - 10-22-2011 at 07:25 PM

Fish--------

How is taxing the rich a greater % "fair"????

If the right policies were inacted, we could come out of this recession like a rocket------but so far, it isn't happening.

I can't remember the rest of what you said----------------:no:

Barry

All of That Red Herring Business

MrBillM - 10-22-2011 at 09:41 PM

Sounds Fishy to me.

Who be WE ? Maybe Thee, but not Me.

On virtually any important (and most trivial) Political Questions, the split is within a few points of 50-50.

Including the B.O./McNut Election.

Iflyfish - 10-22-2011 at 11:47 PM

Barry A:

"How is taxing the rich a greater % "fair"????"

A very good question. Here is an answer in 2 minutes and 15 seconds.
http://tinyurl.com/3hbr8bh

"If the right policies were inacted, we could come out of this recession like a rocket------but so far, it isn't happening."

There is no easy fix to these problems. We have been lowering taxes and deregulating banks, financial and investment corporations for years and we are experiencing the affect of the greatest boom/bust since the great depression and the since the government is the stimulator of last resort and its resources have been used to bail out those very corporations that caused the crisis and they are sitting on that money there is very little that can be done to directly stimulate the economy. Home ownership and borowing for consumption have been the engines that have driven the economy for a very long time. The housing bubble burst and the values of those assets have hit extreme lows and the home owner/income earner/worker has picked up the tab via their devalued homes, unemployment and lack of funds to spend on consumer homes/consumer goods etc. that are the engine of the economy. No customers, no business.

It takes time for any growth in consumption to come back after a recession and this is a very serious one. There is no quick fix.

Congress is paralysed due to political/economic interests of the legislators. There is no bi-partisan capacity in the institution now since Newt Gingrich got the House Republicans to vote as a block and Grover Norquist got all Republicans in the House to sign pledges to NEVER sign a bill that increased taxes. The Senate is in gridlock due to it's rule, that either party could change, that now requires a 60 vote super majority for ANY legislation to pass. Therefore any meaningful stimulus package that might be passed is not able go move into law. In addition each member of the legislature must be bound to huge contributors in order to fund their multi million re-election campaigns. The job of a Congressman now is to generate revenue on a 24/7 basis and the bigger the constituant the more beholding they are to them. The Supreme Court ruled last year that Corporations (which have the same rights as individual human beings) have the right to UNLIMITED campaign contributions and funding of PACS.

"I can't remember the rest of what you said----------------"

The rest of what I said was it is necessary to take the money out of politics and the best way to do this is to require Media Corporations to provide free time to politicians during SHORT election periods, i.e. 2 months, and make it illegal for politicians to PURCHASE airtime. The PUBLIC OWNS the airwaves and could make this happen by changing an FCC rule. Most political money is spent on electioneering and media buying. Corporate Media would oppose this hanner and tong as political advertising is a major source of revenue. Good Republicans like Buddy Rhoemer cannot even get in one of the Republican debates and yet he is the ONLY Republican who is directly addressing these issues.
http://www.buddyroemer.com/

I am not advocating a vote for Buddy Roemer, I personally think Obama is doing a good job, given he is hamstrung by Congress. My point is that a very reasonable, electable Republican is still an unknown to most of the electorate because he only accepts $100 donations from Individuals. He doesn't stand the chance of a snowball in hell of even being heard the way the system works now. If you are a Republican, particularly a Conservative Republican, you aught to listen to this guy. You will find much you like. It is a shame that his voice is not being heard.

I am sorry for my verbosity, I simply do not know how to say what I need to say in a 20 second sound bite, which is what now passes for political debate.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 10-23-2011 at 12:28 AM

MrBillM says

"On virtually any important (and most trivial) Political Questions, the split is within a few points of 50-50."

The issues have been framed in such a way that they bifurcate and create gridlock and that is to the advantage of the Republican Party, who is now nominally the minority party but actually works as the majority given the 60 vote Super Majority vote required in the Senate. The Constitution defined a simple majority rule, a 51 vote majority. Paralysis, as it exists, benefits the Republicans as it makes Obama appear ineffective and weak.
In 2010 Mitch McConnell, the Republican Leader in the Senate stated "my
single most important job is to defeat President Obama in 2012”. His job isn't to find solutions to the very real problems of the economy and unemployment, home mortgage default, a workable national health care plan; it is to have Obama be a one term President and the way to do that is to say "No". We should fire any politician that says his job is to defeat the other party’s candidate. Their job is to govern effectively and serve the people. Their job is not to fundraise and every day and be running for office, their job is to fashion debate, negotiate and formulate solutions to the problems facing our country.

The Corporate Press has generated a narrative that focuses on conflict. Conflict is good business. Drama is what sells "news". The Corporate Media decides what is "news". The narrative is developed with the goal of capturing the largest audience. This is accomplished by providing entertainment, which has become "news" Witness FOX and the blurring between "news" and opinion, ditto for MSNBC. "News" is entertainment and a good Republican, with good ideas, like Buddy Roemer http://www.buddyroemer.com/ can get no airtime because he both does not fit in this Corporate Media narrative and is a threat to their source of revenue.

I actually don’t think that the public is split 50/50. A majority of Americans believe that government has a legitimate role to play. A majority of Americans like Social Security and Medicare and will fight to save it. A majority of Americans are sick and tired of gridlock in Congress and now give Congress a 12% approval rating. A majority of Americans feel screwed by the Tarp bailout, their decreased incomes over the last 30 years, their belief that we have squandered our resources on futile wars. Most Americans believe that the obscene bonuses paid to the very Corporate Executives in Banks and Wall Street who nearly tanked this economy is unfair. A majority of Americans believe that the rich should pay their fair share for the goods and services they receive from public infrastructure. Most Americans agree that there is too much money in Politics and that Congress is corrupt and broken. I believe that these issues unite what is now seen as the right and the left. Why are these issues not the very meat of our political discourse? Why are not these problems the ones that are front and center in Congress? Instead we get discussions of Religion, Reproductive Rights, Illegal Immigration (which is where this discussion started), who is “stronger”,
appears more Presidential” “has more voter appeal”, “can woe the Religious Right”, “be strong on defense” “who won the last debate”, “who one upped the other Candidate” “who is the front runner”.

Thanks for weighing in on this Bill. I apologize for my verbosity. I have yet to master the simple sentence.

Iflyfish

The fact of the matter is that the American economy isn’t working for average Americans, and hasn’t been for some time

mtgoat666 - 10-23-2011 at 06:41 AM

good observation by Matthew Yglesias:
Quote:

The basic economic premise of modern American liberalism, as I understand it, is that with appropriate regulation and taxation a market economy can be made broadly beneficial to the overwhelming majority of citizens. This stands in contrast to the pure capitalist view that a rising tide will inevitably lift all boats, and to the radical claim that market economies are inherently immiserating.

The liberal view is, I think, correct. But it’s clear that for the 20 years between 1980 and 2000 what was possible in theory wasn’t necessarily happening in practice, and for the past decade it hasn’t been working at all. The story is familiar, but worth repeating. We’re seeing not just growing inequality, but actually falling wages and incomes at the median. People are outraged—and rightly so—that the economy and economic policymakers are failing them.

...

The fact of the matter is that the American economy isn’t working for average Americans, and hasn’t been for some time. Meanwhile, the corporate executive class has gotten quite adept at standing in solidarity against effective regulation of the financial system, against solutions to our environmental problems, and against progressive taxes. The time is right for people who aren’t happy about that to stand up and be heard.


read whole opinion at: http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/96499/occupy-wall-street...

Barry A. - 10-23-2011 at 09:11 AM

Excellent replys from both Fish and Goat, and I agree with all the "dots" that Robert Reich identifies, but what I don't agree with is his "connection" of those dots---------they do not track, IMO.

I listen to Robert Reisch daily on the LARRY KUDLOW SHOW, a weekday 1 hour business and politics show at 4pm to 5pm Pacific on CNBC, and he has yet to convince me of his premises, in fact quite the contrary he causes me to move further to the "right" in horror at what he is presenting as "the truth" and what it all means..

I would suggest that anyone who is truly interested in this subject watch the Larry Kudlow show, which presents both sides of the issues, and then come to your own conclusions.

I can't speak for others, and I am not a "fat cat", however for the past 40 years I have been investing 30% of my income into the Stock Market (no bonds) and I now am living the so-called "American Dream" and have been for some 15 years, so I know first hand that the "system" does work, and works for me and my grown kids on a daily basis. You just have to participate, like Suzy Orman says, and pay attention, and you too can reap the benefits of Capitalism like the "fat cats" do.

Many of the 'points' made by Fish are valid, but his conclusions as to why bad things are happening to the "middle class" are speculative and I just can't agree with his (and Robert Reich's) logic, from my perspective.

I try to listen to all sides, including the frustrating MSNBC point of view & the PBS news and commentary every morning, and then listen and read the analysis of those persons I trust, and have trusted for a long time (Thomas Sowell, Art Laffer, Larry Kudlow, Charles Krouthammer, Newt Gingrich, Dick Morris, and host of others) and come to my own conclusions tempered by my own experience over the years. Personal experience trumps all, at least for me it does.

I am thoroughly dismayed and angry at the way the present Administration is handling things, with a few exceptions, and support the idea that the main thrust of the Republican's should be to un-seat Obama and especially his team, and get some experienced and more moderate center-right folks in there to run the ship and get us back on course---------I am convinced that we have drifted into waters that can only lead to our demise (ala Europe) if allowed to continue, and we are never going to solve our problems if we continue in the present direction---------the present policies (most of them) just make no sense to me.

The most scary guy of all is Paul Krugman of the New York Times-------------how anybody can follow his line of "logic" is beyond me, and the fact that he is still given an audience proves to me that we have some real "radicals" giving voice to what I consider nutty solutions to our present problems, and that have no clue as to how a Capitalist system works in bringing relative prosperity to the chaotic primitive world we live in.

I thank both Fish and Goat for their respectful responses, but think that we should 'agree to disagree', as usual.

Barry

ps Mr. Fish---------I listened to the the speech by Buddy Roemer in the link you provided above, and you are right, he is a good man with a lot of great ideas. Thank you for providing that. Barry

[Edited on 10-23-2011 by Barry A.]

Agreeing to Disagree

MrBillM - 10-23-2011 at 10:07 AM

While the discussion could be (and probably will be) continued Ad Infinitum to the (usual) Zero effect other than making each side feel good about their position in the argument, I'll leave the floor to others who think it's going somewhere.

Let me know when those changes come along.

If I'm dozing, just nudge me.

BTW, "Red" Harry Reid could change the 60-vote rule at any time with a 51-vote majority. However, both sides are cognizant that the Senate changes hands and, with a "Narrow" majority at present quite likely in doubt come 2012 due to the high number of Dem seats which look vulnerable, he is VERY unlikely to make that move. In those close-contest seats, the change might tip the political balance.

Iflyfish - 10-23-2011 at 10:07 AM

I appreciate the thoughtful posts of mtgoat666 and Barry A. You both are thoughtful people who have considered opinions and provide us with more than slogans and platitudes. For this I can be grateful. It is possible that reasonable people can have differences and maintain their civility a conclusion that would be hard to maintain with constant exposure to the current "news/entertainment/cagefight" that now passes for informed discussion and debate. We all share a great love for America and are very concerned about the situation we find it in at this time. We all also share a love of Baja and by extension Mexico and it's great people.

You will also notice in this particular dialogue between Barry A. and myself that there is agreement, disagreement and mutual respect. In my recent experience this sort of dialogue is unusual given how the general public has been wipped into an "US vs THEM" mentality by Corporate Media that has been distorting the very important issues we discuss.

It is my opinion that Corporate Media is using the issue of Illegal Immigration to focus the disease with our current political/economic situation onto Illegal Immigrants, who are identified as the source of our problems. Illegal Immigration is indeed a problem and one that we are having more success in dealing with. I do believe that when you demonize a group of people that you alienate them and that this is indeed happening in the Latino community in the US. The political party that demonizes this population, a now significant voting block, does so at their own risk. Mexican Americans are not stupid but are also exposed to the same media that we all are and are subject to the same propoganda. It is therefore possible that Mexican Americans as a group may also be led into opposing their own self interests as the rest of us have been pitted against each other.

Iflyfish

Skeet/Loreto - 10-23-2011 at 10:25 AM

Goat;

I your Postings you often refer to the "Bad Condition" of America. It is hard for me to understand when:

Amarillo Texas and the Panhandle includeing Dalhart and hereford are doing quite Well. We have lots of Jobs open all over.

Texas Tech University in Lubbloc is become a more Top Rated University each Year.

The area is starting the largest Wind Generation System in the World.

Dalhart has the homar Cheese Plant, the largest in the World and looking for 70 more people. A new Cheese Factory opening in Greely Colo this Month.

In North Dakota in one area there are not enough Housing nor people to take all the Jobs being offered in the Oil and Gas Industry. People are stying in the Wal-Mart Parking Lots.

Texas has had an increase of 4, million People in the Past 10 years.


Now I also realize that places like Detroit Mich has many Jobless, also that some of these people are coming to the Southern States for Jobs.
You keep saying that it is Bad in the good old USA.

Would you please be more specific!!! Not just post Stats that someone may be lying about.

Skeet/Loreto
Old Age ani't no Place for Sisses

mtgoat666 - 10-23-2011 at 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Goat;

I your Postings you often refer to the "Bad Condition" of America. It is hard for me to understand when:

Amarillo Texas and the Panhandle includeing Dalhart and hereford are doing quite Well. We have lots of Jobs open all over.

Texas Tech University in Lubbloc is become a more Top Rated University each Year.

The area is starting the largest Wind Generation System in the World.

Dalhart has the homar Cheese Plant, the largest in the World and looking for 70 more people. A new Cheese Factory opening in Greely Colo this Month.

In North Dakota in one area there are not enough Housing nor people to take all the Jobs being offered in the Oil and Gas Industry. People are stying in the Wal-Mart Parking Lots.

Texas has had an increase of 4, million People in the Past 10 years.


Now I also realize that places like Detroit Mich has many Jobless, also that some of these people are coming to the Southern States for Jobs.
You keep saying that it is Bad in the good old USA.

Would you please be more specific!!! Not just post Stats that someone may be lying about.

Skeet/Loreto
Old Age ani't no Place for Sisses


so, obama is doing pretty good job, eh?

4 more years!

si, se puede!

Make no Mistake

MrBillM - 10-23-2011 at 10:44 AM

It is ALWAYS "Us versus Them" and always will be.

The "Us" and the "Them" simply Morph depending on the issue.

Socialism, Liberty and Individual Achievement are natural enemies.

Unfortunately, Socialism is winning right now.

what the 1% thinks

mtgoat666 - 10-23-2011 at 11:13 AM

Skeet/Loreto - 10-23-2011 at 11:49 AM

Goat;

No Obama is not doing too well; It was Clinton and a lot of Greedy people from all walks of life that started the so-called "Debt Crisis"/

I have given Obama some latitude do to his Background and lack of Knowlde but the "people" of this Great Country will bring it back in line.

Have you noticed the Lack of support from Obama's former Campaing People and supporters?? It just might be that he will get smarted and not even run for another term. The Demorats are really going to get their Noses Wiped in 20012.

The Religious bunch of People have Had it. Many of the Mexican people realize that Money produces jobs. Want have to worry about California they will all be DOPED UP and will not know the difference.
.

Iflyfish - 10-23-2011 at 11:59 AM

MrBill'M

“It is ALWAYS "Us versus Them" and always will be.”

If this is true how then do you account for the fact that Germany and Japan are our allies? Germany and Japan were our mortal enemies during that war; we demonized them and dehumanized them by labeling them with derogatory terms. We made the Germans and Japanese people a “Them”. This labeling allowed us to Inter patriotic Japanese American Citizens in Concentration Camps. This demonization allowed us to kill innocent German and Japanese civilians without the guilt that normally accompanies killing another human being. The Christian bible says “thou shall not kill”. This commandment is a value shared by all the great religions. It is therefore necessary to think in the rigid “Us versus Them” in order to violate this commandment.

This black/white thinking is very dangerous. Bifurcation (dividing the world into black/white, either/or paradigms) does not allow for compromise and cooperation with those who disagree with us. It is cooperation that got us out of the caves. It is this thinking that divides us and has led us into three failed wars that have cost us the best among us and drained our treasuries and left us fighting with each other for the scraps.

It is not You vs Me Bill, it is Us together in this boat, and we better sort out how to keep it afloat. It is not Us vs Illegal Immigrants, it’s Us with trees/vines to prune and crops to pick and families to support on both sides of the border that we have created.

I appreciate your sharing your underlying philosophy. I wish I could state mine so simply.

Iflyfish

Cypress - 10-23-2011 at 12:11 PM

The dem game plan for the next election has already been revealed. Class warfare. It's an attempt to cash in on the economic disaster they have aggravated and failed to fix. Will it work? Depends upon how many gullible voters buy into it.:The repubs? Right now, they're chasing their tails over abortion.:D

Iflyfish - 10-23-2011 at 01:29 PM

Cypress

“The dem game plan for the next election has already been revealed. Class warfare.”

I personally do not like the use of the term “class warfare”, I believe it is inflammatory and divisive and not helpful in addressing the very real issue of income inequity. I will however quote Warren Buffett, one of America’s most successful Capitalist , businessmen and billionaire on the subject because you raised the issue.

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every...

Notice this article is from 2006.

If you have not read my previous post on the subject please go to the following link. http://tinyurl.com/3hbr8bh

See this from the Business Insider, not your basic Liberal Rag. These statistics are common knowledge and are readily available to anyone who wants to take the time to verify them. There is very little controversy over the veracity of these statistics.

Over the past three decades, the picture changes — radically. From 1981-2008, average incomes grew by a healthy $12,000. But a shocking 96% of that growth went to the richest 10% of the country. Only 4% of it went to the other 90%.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/income-inequality-charts-2011...

From 1997-2008, average incomes grew by $2,700. All of these gains went to the richest 10%. The incomes of the other 90% declined.
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/income-inequality-charts-2011...

If you want to see why the protesters are taking to the streets see the following charts, also from Business Insider. You will find this information on numerous sites, there is virtually no disagreement on these facts. The differences that exist among us is how to best address these problems.
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/3mvx6fa

Corporate Profits have just hit an all time high.
http://tinyurl.com/4ygmv67
CEO pay is now 350X the average worker's, up from 50X from 1960-1985.
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/3bmcrnd

In fact, income inequality has gotten so extreme here that the US now ranks 93rd in the world in "income equality." China's ahead of us. So is India. So is Iran.
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/4ypepll

So what does all this mean in terms of net worth? Well, for starters, it means that the top 1% of Americans own 42% of the financial wealth in this country. The top 5%, meanwhile, own nearly 70%.
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/4xwa6ha

The aggregate tax rate for the top 1% is lower than for the next 9%—and not much higher than it is for pretty much everyone else.
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/4xhvyo2

As the nation's richest people often point out, they do pay the lion's share of taxes in the country: The richest 20% pay 64% of the total taxes. (Lower bar). Of course, that's because they also make most of the money. (Top bar).
Read more: http://tinyurl.com/3barn32

When the Corporate Media attack the lower income people wage earners by saying they are committing “class warfare” it is simply a way to use an inflammatory word to redefine the very real problems they are bringing to our attention. Mtgoat666’s cartoon aptly conveys this issue.

Redefining reality does not change reality. There is undeniably a great disparity between the real income/tax burden of the upper and lower classes in the USA. That disparity has grown significantly in the past 30 years of deregulation, lowering taxes on the upper class, Corporations and the funding of the Military Industrial Complex and its support of foreign wars along with the demonization of Labor Unions.

At the same time the evolution of the 24 hour news cycle and the subsequent need for office holders to collect millions of dollars each day to fill their campaign coffers and those of their political party, in order to purchase Corporate Media air time, have created a class of political millionaires who are beholding to their Corporate sponsors. See my previous post on this underlying structural problem that must be addressed in order to make any real change in the game as it has now evolved. That problem is deregulation of the Corporate Media’s use of the the airwaves that are owned and regulated by we the people. Most people do not realize that the people own the airwaves and Corporate Media is licensed to use them and those licenses require certain conditions for use. We could change this game by taking the money out of political campaigning.
Read more about this significant issue at : http://tinyurl.com/5yn3ox

Here is a Conservative Republican that directly addresses the problem. The problem is you will never hear about him because he only accepts donation of $100 from individuals and his position of taking the money out of politics would have a significant impact on the bottom line of Corporate Media, who make billions on campaign advertising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JeHtSY9ODw

This is why I take the position that Illegal Immigration, though a real problem, is being used as a red herring to take you and I off the scent of the real underlying problem in our political system. That problem is the total corruption of our political system by money. If we don’t change this then we are just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. It suits Corporate Interests for us to be pitted against each other by calling the surfacing of these issues “class warfare”.

Iflyfish

Cypress - 10-23-2011 at 01:55 PM

Iflyfish, Class warfare? You can color it any way you want. You've already said you'll vote for Obama in 2012.:D You're happy with 9%+ unemployment. Good for you.:D

Us-ins and Them-ins

MrBillM - 10-23-2011 at 02:21 PM

Note that my next line (left out) was: "The 'Us' and the 'Them' simply Morph ......."

As far as the Japanese (or anybody else), it's worth noting what De Gaulle (and others before him) said "STATES don't have friends or enemies. They have Interests".

Japan was our ally in WWI (after considering and rejecting being our opponent) before starting WWII on Dec 7.

The causes for the current situation were complex and the current (often simplistic) Scapegoating is ENTIRELY Political.

Skeet/Loreto - 10-23-2011 at 02:48 PM

Fish:

I may be old and mean but what do you mean by "Inequites"". Does it say in the Constitution that all People will receive the same amount of Money for their WorK//

Does it mean that I who worked 17 hours a day for 10 years selling tools. should not have anymore money than the gal or Guy working a Walmart for 20 years??

We are not Equal in Looks, Color, or Actions. Each one of us has it in us to do the best we can, the other Get by, the other just does not care if he gets his new Car every 4 years.

We are not Equal and we will never be.

Skeet/Loreto

Old Age ain't no Place for Sisses

Iflyfish - 10-23-2011 at 03:18 PM

Cypress

You wrote: "Iflyfish, Class warfare? You can color it any way you want. You've already said you'll vote for Obama in 2012. You're happy with 9%+ unemployment. Good for you."

You have redefined my position. This does not address the issues and information I have provided. This is a typical way that political discourse has devolved in our country. You will see this every day if you watch your "news" with a clear eye. This is a rhetorical device, not a rebuttal to my posts. What I anticipate next is an ad hominum argument that goes "so you will vote for Obama, then you must be a Muslim sympathizer who hates America". I am waiting.

I laid out clear statistics with documentation, a very time consuming process may I add, and you respond not be addressing the issues but by proposing that if I will vote for Obama that I am "happy with 9%+ unemployment". This is an excellent example of how real dialogue gets derailed.

I am going to provide a list of Logical Fallacies. If you see my using any of these I would appreciate your pointing them out to me. Logical fallacies do not resolve but rather interfere with logical conclusions. You can find definitions for these Logical Fallacies at this site. I would encourage you all to read these and keep them in mind as you watch the “news” on Corporate Media. I would be interested in reading examples.
Definitions on this site: http://www.skeptically.org/logicalthreads/id12.html

• Accent
• Ad hoc
• Affirmation of the consequent
• Amphiboly
• Anecdotal evidence
• Argumentum ad antiquitatem
• Argumentum ad baculum / Appeal to force
• Argumentum ad crumenam
• Argumentum ad hominem
• Argumentum ad ignorantiam
• Argumentum ad lazarum
• Argumentum ad logicam
• Argumentum ad misericordiam
• Argumentum ad nauseam
• Argumentum ad novitatem
• Argumentum ad numerum
• Argumentum ad populum
• Argumentum ad verecundiam
• Audiatur et altera pars
• Bifurcation
• Circulus in demonstrando
• Complex question / Fallacy of interrogation / Fallacy of presupposition
• Fallacies of composition
• Converse accident / Hasty generalization
• Converting a conditional
• Cum hoc ergo propter hoc
• Denial of the antecedent
• The fallacy of accident / Sweeping generalization / Dicto simpliciter
• Fallacy of division
• Equivocation / Fallacy of four terms
• The extended analogy
• Ignoratio elenchi / Irrelevant conclusion
• The Natural Law fallacy / Appeal to Nature
• The "No True Scotsman..." fallacy
• Non causa pro causa
• Non sequitur
• Out of context
• Petitio principii / Begging the question
• Plurium interrogationum / Many questions
• Post hoc ergo propter hoc
• Red herring
• Reification / Hypostatization
• Shifting the burden of proof
• The slippery slope argument
• Straw man
• Tu quoque
• Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle / "A is based on B" fallacies / "...is a type of..." fallacies
Iflyfish

Cypress - 10-23-2011 at 03:35 PM

Their's nothing logical about supporting the dem agenda. Obama just comes with the territory.:biggrin:

Barry A. - 10-23-2011 at 03:56 PM

Fish----------everything on your list takes me to 'ATHEISM', a topic I am really not interested in. What's up with THAT???

I have no idea what you are talking about this time------you use several words that I do not know the meaning of, which complicates things, and CERTAINLY does not lead to understanding.

In other words, you are over my head.

I will bow out now. :?:

Barry

Iflyfish - 10-23-2011 at 03:59 PM

Us-ins and Them-ins

Note that my next line (left out) was: "The 'Us' and the 'Them' simply Morph ......."

MrBillM

I appreciate your pointing out that I did not include your entire quote, I thought that the second line was simply saying that the content simply morphed, not the process of bifurcating perception into “Us vs. Them”. I still read it the same way, am I missing something?
Here is your entire quote:
“It is ALWAYS "Us versus Them" and always will be.”
The "Us" and the "Them" simply Morph depending on the issue.

You further wrote
“As far as the Japanese (or anybody else), it's worth noting what De Gaulle (and others before him) said "STATES don't have friends or enemies. They have Interests".

This statement of De Gaulle is a very useful way to view differences between nations. This view allows for resolution of differences by addressing each parties “Interests” in coming up with resolution of differences between nations. In my view this also applies to people. By redefining differences into “it’s Us vs. Them” we set up to more conflict as each side must escalate in order to have its Interests acknowledged. This is the fatal flaw in George W. Bush’s statement “You are either with us or against us”. This position does not allow for more nuanced ways of viewing the situation or coming up with mutually beneficial compromises. De Gaulle is making the very point I was trying to make in my prior post.

I am not saying that negotiation and compromise are ALWAYS possible. However if you start out taking a position that “it’s Us vs Them” you close off many other ways of understanding differences. In the ancient Chinese book on War by Sun Tzu, The Art of War, still used as a basic text in our war colleges, says war is inevitably the failure of spy craft and diplomacy and should be avoided at all costs.

You stated: “Japan was our ally in WWI (after considering and rejecting being our opponent) before starting WWII on Dec 7.”

In this you are very correct and make my point that reality and political alliances shift based upon the underlying Interests of all parties involved and that viewing differences from the perspective of “it’s Us vs Them” binds the hands of those who hold that position. If you are meaning that these interests “morph” over time I would agree with you. This is why it is important to resist positing differences in an “it’s Us vs. Them” paradigm.

You write: “The causes for the current situation were complex and the current (often simplistic) Scapegoating is ENTIRELY Political.”

To this I would say that reality is indeed multiply determined and complex and simplistic solutions, though seductive, often have unanticipated consequences. Scapegoating is indeed one of the rhetorical devices used to control clear analysis of the complicated issues involved in our current situation and is not productive. Looking for and understanding underlying processes that are problematic are useful. If we don’t know where we have been it is difficult to map a path to where we want to go. I would say that in regard to the Illegal Immigration issue we are discussing that Scapegoating is indeed involved as is the use of the issue to deflect us from the underlying structural issues that are in my view the problem.

It looks like we may have real agreement on at least a couple of issues here.

You say: “Socialism, Liberty and Individual Achievement are natural enemies. Unfortunately, Socialism is winning right now.”

Sounds good, a great sound bite, but fallacious. The reality of the situation is that the US has a managed economy, always has under the rule of law, and those laws were designed to both insure Liberty and promote the Public Welfare. Corporatism is a real threat to both our Liberty and Individual achievement as clearly explicated in my prior posts demonstrating how wealth has accrued to the Corporate Class over the last 30 years.

I quote Written by Admin on October 22, 2011 in Prison Planet http://independentnewshub.com/?p=46570
“The following is the definition of “corporatism” from the Merriam-Webster dictionary….
the organization of a society into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and exercising control over persons and activities within their jurisdiction
Corporatism is actually not too different from socialism or communism. They are all “collectivist” economic systems. Under corporatism, wealth and power are even more highly concentrated than they are under socialism or communism, and the truth is that none of them are “egalitarian” economic systems. Under all collectivist systems, a small elite almost always enjoys most of the benefits while most of the rest of the population suffers.”
Iflyfish

Velly Interesting

MrBillM - 10-23-2011 at 04:05 PM

As Charlie Chinaman would say:

Read an Editorial Page article in one Sunday paper regarding the Whining Occupiers which stated the premise that the reason there is so much disharmony is that things got too good and people (being what they are) got used to wanting MORE. Encouraged by the politicians, of course. Wanting more votes.

If you look back on what it was (materially) to be Middle-class in the 40s-50s-60s, it was a LOT less than today. As the standard of living improved at a continually accelerated pace, expectations
for more-quicker made inevitable mass disharmony when there was a downturn.

While the causes were myriad, as a contributing factor, the expectation for largesse in excess of that actually earned is clearly present.

I remember many years ago (in the '70s), a Union Leader justifying unrealistic wages (in that case Garbage Handlers) said that "Just because some people don't have a College-Education or technical skills, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to share in the American-Dream". Which took MORE Money.

While that "sounds" good, what he was promoting was manipulation of the Market-Forces to place a higher value on a particular skill than free-enterprise would dictate.

In a different time, the Greatest Motivator for people to work hard and pursue higher skills was the fact that the jobs at the Low-End paid CRAP.

And, it worked.

Iflyfish - 10-23-2011 at 04:06 PM

Barry

I appreciate your hanging in with this lengthy dialogue. The list of logical fallacies is intended to address the redifining of my argument. Support of Obama does not equate with being happy with 9%+ unemployment. I listed these fallacies for those who might want to understand better how the Corporate Media manipulates its viewers and listeners.

I appologise for using words that are difficult to understand. I am way too wordy and do use words that are not often used. I am attempting to be clear and probably over elaborating. I appreciate the feedback.

Iflyfish

Cypress - 10-23-2011 at 04:09 PM

Iflyfish, All those communist(collectivist systems) you mention? They've failed. I agree. Your point?:?:
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