BajaNomad - Try Ordering Fuel By The Liter

Try Ordering Fuel By The Liter

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DavidE - 11-22-2011 at 01:42 PM

When my tank is low I'll pull into a gasolinera and order more than enough fuel stating liters, I don't even have to be close, just order more then the tank will hold. Dead dry my tank holds 16 gallons. So at a quarter of a tank I'll order 16 liters.

Surprise! My fuel economy "jumped" almost ten percent. More kilometers per liter.

Be sorta neat to see others do the same. The pumps must be accurate when dispensing by product quantity rather than peso amount, to keep PROFECO off their butt.

DavidE - 11-22-2011 at 01:44 PM

ORDER SIXTY LITERS

vandenberg - 11-22-2011 at 01:46 PM

Does this make sense to anybody else. :?:

comitan - 11-22-2011 at 02:04 PM

:no:

If this makes sense you should put moth balls in your tank and get double the mileage!!!

[Edited on 11-22-2011 by comitan]

J.P. - 11-22-2011 at 02:05 PM

Wouldnt it be easier to learn gallon to leader conversion. :?:

sanquintinsince73 - 11-22-2011 at 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
:no:

If this makes sense you should put moth balls in your tank and get double the mileage!!!

[Edited on 11-22-2011 by comitan]

I tried that one on my Tahoe and ended up selling it way cheap because no one could figure out what was wrong with it.

sanquintinsince73 - 11-22-2011 at 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
When my tank is low I'll pull into a gasolinera and order more than enough fuel stating liters, I don't even have to be close, just order more then the tank will hold. Dead dry my tank holds 16 gallons. So at a quarter of a tank I'll order 16 liters.

Surprise! My fuel economy "jumped" almost ten percent. More kilometers per liter.

Be sorta neat to see others do the same. The pumps must be accurate when dispensing by product quantity rather than peso amount, to keep PROFECO off their butt.

Until they figure out how to rig the pumps to indicate the amount of liters that you ask for.

Woooosh - 11-22-2011 at 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
Does this make sense to anybody else. :?:

yeah- but the station will still put 12 liters in a ten liter container.

Bob and Susan - 11-22-2011 at 02:46 PM

you do realize a 10 ltr gas container WILL hold 12 liters dont you

David K - 11-22-2011 at 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by J.P.
Wouldnt it be easier to learn gallon to leader conversion. :?:

Gallon to WHAT ???

TheColoradoDude - 11-22-2011 at 03:20 PM

I was told recently here in San Carlos Sonora to always buy gas by the liter and not by peso amount. So I understand what you are saying in your first post.

David K - 11-22-2011 at 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
ORDER SIXTY LITERS

For the metric challanged, that's almost 16 gallons (15.85).

J.P. - 11-22-2011 at 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by J.P.
Wouldnt it be easier to learn gallon to leader conversion. :?:

Gallon to WHAT ???

Got me there David in Texas they taught me to count.Spelling not so good. :lol:

David K - 11-22-2011 at 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
Does this make sense to anybody else. :?:

What Dah-veed is saying (I guess) is that somehow the pump meter for liters is not tied to the meter for pesos...

So, if you ask for '60 liters' and the price is 9 pesos per liter, you will get 60 liters and pay 540 pesos ($41.53 at 13 to 1).

BUT, if you ask for '540 pesos'... you are going to get only 54 liters (10% less) or whatever under the correct amount.

------------------------------------------------------------------- :?:

How does the operator or pump seperate the two based on how you ask (volume vs. cost)???

bajacalifornian - 11-22-2011 at 03:33 PM

In line with the origional post, the most accurate order is in units of 20 liters. Plain and simple, 20, 40, 60 liters etc. The liter button depressed on the pump, pump computer switches to complient measurement as opposed to free market with the cash button depressed. Been discussed here before.

David K - 11-22-2011 at 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by J.P.

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by J.P.
Wouldnt it be easier to learn gallon to leader conversion. :?:

Gallon to WHAT ???

Got me there David in Texas they taught me to count.Spelling not so good. :lol:

LOL... Looks like you have a spell checker on there and it didn't like 'liter'! :yes:

Have a happy turkey day!

Bob and Susan - 11-22-2011 at 03:36 PM

i'll go tomorrow and ask and check...interesting

Bajahowodd - 11-22-2011 at 05:29 PM

Sigh. :barf:

Cannot ever remember when I didn't just fill the tank. Aside from keeping an eye on the pump to ensure it started at zero, what else to do?

Not sure exactly how frequently PROFECO actually visits the stations, but at the end of the day, unless someone is buying a container ship load of fuel, what's the big deal?

wakemall - 11-22-2011 at 06:26 PM

Unbelievable! Once the pump has been calibrated it does not matter if you ask for pesos or liters. Wrong is wrong. By the way, I usually ask for 40# leader when fishing for Dorado. Sometimes I want to see the litter before making my selection.

:spingrin:

Cielomar - 11-27-2011 at 02:07 PM

Quote:

Cielomar - 11-27-2011 at 02:15 PM

Thanks for the post David. Last summer I got fed up with the Pemex stations in Todos Santos and Pescadero pocketing up to 15% when I simply said"lleno". Complained to Profeca in La Paz and nothing happened. Of course all the locals knew they were being ripped off and have been ordering by the liter for years. I also understand that the pumps farther to the inside of the station are calibrated to rip you off even more, so say the locs. I drove back to the US and got 12% better gas mileage using the liter method than when I came down two months prior. I don't think the price went down (does it ever?). Maybe I had a strong wind to my back!!

PS-The Pemex outside of Todos going toward La Paz is owned by the local ejido and is honest. I filled up a 5 gallon can there and it was right on the mark....

Roberto - 11-27-2011 at 03:26 PM

What he's saying is pretty clear, actually, and simple:

Quote:

The pumps must be accurate when dispensing by product quantity rather than peso amount, to keep PROFECO off their butt.

comitan - 11-27-2011 at 03:49 PM

Mothballs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!=liters

Bob and Susan - 11-27-2011 at 04:06 PM

i think this is an "urban myth"

let's ask antonio "bajacatus" if this can be done with the gas pumps

i dont think it can

Roberto - 11-27-2011 at 04:15 PM

It does seem weird that 16 liters of gas will cost two different amounts depending on whether you buy by the liter or by the peso.

How does the pump know which one you ordered? :lol:

By hand it would seem impossible - perhaps with the automated device the pump could be controlled differently if liters are entered vs pesos? I don't even know if you CAN enter liters in the automated device.

Bob and Susan - 11-27-2011 at 04:22 PM

hahaaha
in mexico jaajajaj

i do know in the usa the gas shuts off at the nozzel
in mexico at the pump

there is alot of gas in the black tube that can drain out

gas station attendents did that all the time in the states in the 60's

TonyC - 11-27-2011 at 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
It does seem weird that 16 liters of gas will cost two different amounts depending on whether you buy by the liter or by the peso.

How does the pump know which one you ordered? :lol:

yeah bro., i'm having a problem wrapping my brain around this. :?:

guess the only way to know for sure is to try it both ways. heading down january.

bajaguy - 11-27-2011 at 09:39 PM

Quote:

Yes, you can buy by the liter at the automated PEMEX pumps. The attendant has a choice to enter liters or pesos amounts on the keypad/screen

I checked my truck's owner's manual and figured the liters required to full, 3/4, 1/2 and 1/4 of a tank.......one of these days I'll do a comparison fill up from the indicated 1/2 tank level of liters vs "fill it up"

[Edited on 11-28-2011 by bajaguy]

larryC - 11-28-2011 at 08:13 AM

I don't know about other pemex stations around baja, but the one here in BoLA that has diesel is about 10% off in their favor. I have an '83 Ford truck that I bought new. In the 28 years I have had the truck I have never been able to get more than 20 gallons in the rear tank. The station here is able to get a little over 22 gallons into my tank. At least they are charging me for that many liters and when I do the math it comes out to more than 22 gallons.
Larry

bajaguy - 11-28-2011 at 08:25 AM

5 US gallons converts to roughly 19 liters. Mark off the 5 gallon line and tell the station you want 19 liters.....see what you get:

http://www.metric-conversions.org/conversion-charts/volume/l...

rob - 11-28-2011 at 08:27 AM

Bob - you ask how this can be done? Just order the chip of your choice from your friendly aftermarket PEMEX-accessories salesman. In Mexico City you can also buy a CFE chip for your (new, electronic-type) power meter.

Incidentally, saying "lleno" is the same as buying in pesos . . .

Woooosh - 11-28-2011 at 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
hahaaha
in mexico jaajajaj

i do know in the usa the gas shuts off at the nozzel
in mexico at the pump

there is alot of gas in the black tube that can drain out

gas station attendents did that all the time in the states in the 60's

me too. As a teen I would drain all the hoses into my tank... probably got a half gallon at most... but it was free

Phil S - 11-28-2011 at 01:01 PM

If I had quit coming down here because of the station 'rip off', I would have quit 24 years ago. Soooooo. I don't worry about the price of gas, because I 'have no control over it", and if you get bad service at a restaurant and you love the food every time, you'll not "QUIT" the restaurant. I wonder about those that take it personal over the 10% surcharge some stations charge. I've been coming down for about 24 years now, & sometimes twice in one year (from Oregon-quite a drive) Heck folks. Your in a 3rd world country. If something like that bothers you. Quit coming down, if it hurts you financially.

DavidE - 11-29-2011 at 03:23 PM

It seemed hilarios to me too until I fed eighty eight liters into a 16 gallon tank at a gasolinera on mex 37 between Patzcuaro and Morelia. Eduardo and Jesus were howling in agony. I told them about gringos disbelelieving that liters and pesos can be manipulated and they just rolled their eyes.

I cannot subsidize gasolinera owner's incomes with four dollar a gallon magna thank you.

Bob and Susan - 11-29-2011 at 03:44 PM

ok tomorrow

i have two one gallon plastic containers

pictures will be attached

we will END this :biggrin:

Hook - 11-29-2011 at 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
ok tomorrow

i have two one gallon plastic containers

pictures will be attached

we will END this :biggrin:

So, you're going to:

1. ask for three liters exactly. Then, note the amount charged in pesos.

2. ask for this same peso amount in the other container and see if the pump reads exactly three liters, right?

I'll be shocked if there is any difference either way.

Of course, this wont determine IF you actually got a true three liters. But it should dispense with this "urban myth" or whatever it is.

[Edited on 11-29-2011 by Hook]

Bob and Susan - 11-29-2011 at 03:55 PM

yes

and at the same time to have the same temp for expansion

yes i will get what i get...you are right but

the argument here is you get a BETTER flow if you order in liters

actually i was going to order 2 liters and see the level
so NO spillage

Hook - 11-29-2011 at 05:00 PM

Go for three. It will be a better indicator of any disparity.

That still leaves approx. .8 gallon headroom in the cans. Should be no spillage there.

Also, dont tell the attendant what you're about to do. Place the orders separately. Let him complete one order and then place the other.

One other urban myth is that they can flip a switch and make the pumps pump correct. So, dont let on that this is a test.

[Edited on 11-30-2011 by Hook]

vandenberg - 11-29-2011 at 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
.

One other urban myth is that they can flip a switch and make the pumps pump correct. So, dont let on that this is a test.

That would indicate an attendant's interest in how much is dispensed. Highly unlikely.
They just work there.

Hook - 11-29-2011 at 05:34 PM

Hey, it's MY urban myth...................... :lol:

David K - 11-29-2011 at 05:38 PM

Maybe don't do the two cans at the same visit... get 3 liters and then come back an hour later and get 27 pesos (or whatever 3 liters cost earlier)?

Ateo - 11-29-2011 at 06:34 PM

This is total crap. I'm a Underground Storage Tank System Operator and everything I know about these Dresser Wayne/Gilbarco pumps leads me to call BS.

What I see in my line of work is the public is very distrusting of gas station owners. Everyone thinks the operator is trying to screw his/her customers. Generally what I find is the general public knows jack about how these systems work. I've never met one operator who deliberately cheats the customer and I deal with a lot of scumbags. They disable leak detection systems, illegally dispose of hazardous waste, and illegally reset vapor recovery diagnostic systems, but Ive never seen anyone do something like this.

Pumps do go out of calibration from time to time - in both directions - but this whole liter vs. peso and gaining or losing gas is total BS. The general public may think all you need is a special chip or software program to screw the public like this but I can tell you from experience I've never seen anything like this.

Just my $.02. I'll be interested in seeing Bob and Susan's results mañana.

Oh and I know - this is Mexico, not the USA so don't even start. Let's see the results mañana. If I'm wrong I will apologize.

[Edited on 11-30-2011 by ateo]

David K - 11-29-2011 at 06:48 PM

Jon, just how do they get the pump to read (and charge for) 23 liters when the 19 liter jerry can is filled? Baja Cactus is an honest station... but far too many Pemex stations have pumps that do not pump honest liters.

Ateo - 11-29-2011 at 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Jon, just how do they get the pump to read (and charge for) 23 liters when the 19 liter jerry can is filled? Baja Cactus is an honest station... but far too many Pemex stations have pumps that do not pump honest liters.

That is a simple calibration issue, in favor of the owner. That pump would be under-dispensing. I don't doubt this type of theft, although I've never seen it deliberately done in the US. I bet some stations do this from time to time in Mexico. In the USA, Weights & Measures would find out and nail your butt to the wall.

I'm only disputing the whole "pay for liters instead of a peso amount". I don't see this as a viable theft option for the operator. I could be wrong though. There are much easier ways to steal from your customer, like calibrating your pumps in favor of yourself.

There was a station I had in LA that was giving away a free gallon for every gallon it was charging for. There was a line out into the street before the cashier realized what was happening. Funny thing is not one person called the station to report the pump over-dispensing. That owner lost about $6000 before he realized what was going on!!

Pompano - 11-30-2011 at 07:00 AM

Not much to do with liters, measurement, etc...but on my trip north in the last two days, the dollar-peso exchange rate varied quite a bit.

Spent all my pesos on wine, women, and song..and was left with only US dolares to fill my gas-guzzler.

Same day events: Nov 27, 2011

First exchange was at Vizcaino Pemex north end...11P to 1 dollar. (I bought $30 US worth and moved on)

Second exchange was at El Rosario Pemex....12.5P to 1 dollar. ( I filled up.)

MitchMan - 11-30-2011 at 02:42 PM

"...spent most of my money on wine, women and song, ..and waisted the rest." W.C. Fields

Bob and Susan - 11-30-2011 at 02:49 PM

my answer...

vandenberg - 11-30-2011 at 02:53 PM

Common sense should tell you this. :biggrin:

Till they develop pumps with minds of their own.

[Edited on 11-30-2011 by vandenberg]

TheColoradoDude - 11-30-2011 at 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
my answer...

That is sooooooooooooo awesome! Made me smile.

comitan - 11-30-2011 at 03:10 PM

Thank you Bob.!!!!!!

Hook - 11-30-2011 at 04:43 PM

So, now we know.

Yur screwed if you do and yur screwed if you dont..................buy by the liter. :lol:

Makes sense.

I'm kinda in Phil S's camp, on this one. Really, what is your alternative?

Ordering by the liter, isnt..............

Re: Try Ordering Fuel By The Liter

mtgoat666 - 11-30-2011 at 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Try Ordering Fuel By The Liter

I always place my order in units of imperial pints. I used to order gasoline in joules, but the energy density units of measurement seem to perplex the gas jockeys, they just stared at me like i was from mars when i requested 300 megajoules of unleaded.

Bob and Susan - 11-30-2011 at 05:24 PM

for us simpletons...

300 megajoules of unleaded = 2.28 gallons

i guess "the goat" has a small tank

rob - 11-30-2011 at 05:56 PM

Bob - it took me some time, but I finally found the flaw in an otherwise compelling argument - WHERE DO YOU SHOW THE TAPE CALIBRATION?

Nice try!

David K - 11-30-2011 at 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
my answer...

Wonderful post Bob, you get an A+ on this and the music selection, too.

Just a follow-up: Was that a true 3 liters of gas?

Bob and Susan - 11-30-2011 at 07:25 PM

true 3 liters wasn't part of the test....

only...

do you get more if you buy by liters instead of peso

Ateo - 11-30-2011 at 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
my answer...

BUSTED. Gracias for the video and clarification. I was skeptical the whole time.

ncampion - 11-30-2011 at 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
true 3 liters wasn't part of the test....

only...

do you get more if you buy by liters instead of peso

If you still have the containers with the marks, you could determine the exact amount dispensed. It would make a perfect conclusion to the experiment.

Roberto - 11-30-2011 at 10:13 PM

Wait! Did you use U.S. Department of Weights and Measures containers? Huh? Did you?

I thought so.

I am the KING of precision. I go around the world checking these things and I know more that you do. In other words, I am a blowhard.

Ateo - 11-30-2011 at 10:28 PM

Time for Mythbusters.

Really, a 5 gallon test would be needed to verify my claim that this is bullchit, but trust me, this is a bs urban Baja legend.

Ateo - 11-30-2011 at 10:29 PM

Just buy your gas......(edit) and move along......

[Edited on 12-1-2011 by ateo]

BOLARNR - 12-1-2011 at 05:04 AM

Is it the same in the Southern Hemisphere?

Dr Evil.JPG - 34kB

David K - 12-1-2011 at 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
true 3 liters wasn't part of the test....

only...

do you get more if you buy by liters instead of peso

Yes, I know that... but just to see if the station in Mulege pumps a true 3 liters... Did it look like just over 3/4 of a gallon in your can? As someone above sort of indicated... Buying 19 liters and seeing if you got close to 5 gallons in a 5 gallon can would be better for that kind of test.

laventana - 12-1-2011 at 09:04 AM

RE:Santa Rosalia

I stopped there one time with my motorcycle. trying not to get ripped off I
took the gas nozzle from him to pump it myself at the last minute. so he had
reset the pump and was ready to pump gas. As I clicked it on before two
tablespoons of gas came out it read 3 liters. Since we pump gas in the USA
we know how to use pumps. I immediately began telling the attendant mucho
problemo. i said 3 litros , zero. and he acted like a grade a jerk. But I
would not back down, obviously he knew what it did. and when they just
laughed I began yelling policia akey and just got louder the more they laughed, till they stopped laughing. Only then did he reset the pump and I saw how they
were doing it.

I am an engineer and have designed many input devices including membrane
switches and designed firmware and wrote firmware. He pressed another area of the pump not the green button area. This other area of the pump was solid black with no indication of a button. But I could tell this the normal place to push because it was very dirty right
there.

Since I drive trucks with two tanks I certainly know when I get cheated, I
always let one go dry before using the other and have them fill the empty first.
there is no way to stop them from doing this. Same as the USA I have read that some operators put in a remote control from the station that they press the button and it will cheat you. (I could design this in one day) this way the weights and measurement agency when they test a pump can be beat. I have read on blogs other ways like put in new chips that cheat as it hits over 5 gallons because they are only tested to ??? 2 gallons and so on. I can tell you there are so many ways to beat pumps by re-chipping them that there is not much we can do except boycott them once you know.

Some good advice I received from a person who owns a gas station in LaPaz, go to the stations where the taxi drivers fill up. but this does not stop the remote device, but maybe here they do not have the technology.

also I have noticed when I get even on a full tank of gas about 10%
better mileage on USA gas than on the gas we buy here in Mexico. This is easy to check when you have two tanks, i almost always reset the trip meter after filling a tank full. So could be a different blend of some kind.

I also heard of a gas station being caught somewhere very close to me and being shut down for a month or so for injecting air. I can only say I know they were closed and this was the rumor. and I did test the empty tank after they re-opened and it was then accurate.

as I mentioned I drive a motorcycle too, and have noticed sometimes when I fill up at stations, because it is not fuel injected I have major problems with idling. To the point the bike will not idle at a stop light. Generally I go buy some isopropyl alcohol and put in the tank and it runs better. I have 6 carbs so I can tell very quickly when I get this baddish gas. when starting cold and I can not get out my gate without stalling I know right away. Generally the smaller volume stations are the worst from my anecdotal experiences for the quality issues. fuel injection with electronics overcomes this so it is not noticeable in my vehicles with 4 wheels.

Ateo - 12-1-2011 at 09:40 AM

I have an option for all you black helicopter types: bring your own gas into Baja and boycott Pemex.

But like laventana says, even the US stations have remote controlled cheating devices. so you're screwed either way. Sarcasm.

Can we get BajaCactus' take on the liters to pesos debate?

mtgoat666 - 12-1-2011 at 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by laventana
RE:Santa Rosalia

I stopped there one time with my motorcycle. trying not to get ripped off I
took the gas nozzle from him to pump it myself at the last minute. so he had
reset the pump and was ready to pump gas. As I clicked it on before two
tablespoons of gas came out it read 3 liters. Since we pump gas in the USA
we know how to use pumps. I immediately began telling the attendant mucho
problemo. i said 3 litros , zero. and he acted like a grade a jerk. But I
would not back down, obviously he knew what it did. and when they just
laughed I began yelling policia akey and just got louder the more they laughed, till they stopped laughing. Only then did he reset the pump and I saw how they
were doing it.

most importantly, did you check the cleanliness of the banos?

laventana - 12-1-2011 at 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ateo
This is total crap. I'm a Underground Storage Tank System Operator and everything I know about these Dresser Wayne/Gilbarco pumps leads me to call BS.

What I see in my line of work is the public is very distrusting of gas station owners. Everyone thinks the operator is trying to screw his/her customers. Generally what I find is the general public knows jack about how these systems work. I've never met one operator who deliberately cheats the customer and I deal with a lot of scumbags. They disable leak detection systems, illegally dispose of hazardous waste, and illegally reset vapor recovery diagnostic systems, but Ive never seen anyone do something like this.

Pumps do go out of calibration from time to time - in both directions - but this whole liter vs. peso and gaining or losing gas is total BS. The general public may think all you need is a special chip or software program to screw the public like this but I can tell you from experience I've never seen anything like this.

Just my $.02. I'll be interested in seeing Bob and Susan's results mañana.

Oh and I know - this is Mexico, not the USA so don't even start. Let's see the results mañana. If I'm wrong I will apologize.

[Edited on 11-30-2011 by ateo]

Ok so you are a button pusher?? tech? or an engineer?
how would a mr black helicopter who is the expert in electronics and the industry, you explain this... found in 1 minute of goggling...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opADj9IlAqA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8JfRd_O4W8&feature=relat...
http://www.sunjournal.com/state/story/1096879

They certainly are not going to discuss a felony with with you.... I can very quickly make a system at your place to rip people off. It would be so simple..... it is obvious that these machines can be easily calibrated. so all I would do is take the guts from a second machine calibrate it to steal and put it in via a relay switchable in parallel via remote control. you would not have a clue to what hit ya. and since as I noted just one gas station in the USA alone in the cited report gained over $300k in a year.

http://www.sunjournal.com/state/story/1096879

Quote:

The problems at the southern Maine gas station were detailed in a Sept. 9 memo. It estimated that one station may have cost customers about $316,637 in overcharges in one year.

ya right, an accountant or owner would not know this.... pure BS... i have some black helicopters to sell ya if you think an owner does not know he has an extra 300K.

[Edited on 12-1-2011 by laventana]

Ateo - 12-1-2011 at 01:20 PM

Quote:

The problems at the southern Maine gas station were detailed in a Sept. 9 memo. It estimated that one station may have cost customers about $316,637 in overcharges in one year.

I apologize for using the black helicopter reference - it made me sound like I was trying to insult people, and gave my post a negative tone. I was amped up on coffee.

The videos you posted are what is called "meter creeping". This is part of the UST owners required daily inspection. This "meter creep" is usually caused by a defective bladder inside the dispenser. When the cashier authorizes the pump this bladder expands. If there's a tear in the bladder it will cause the meter to creep up and charge for gas that is not being dispensed. This is a no-no and a few of my stations have been fined for this in the past. Usually it's discovered within a day and usually the meter only creeps $.01 to $.02, right at the beginning of the customers transaction. I've never seen a meter creep like the ones in the videos.

As for the station in Maine, quote:

"State officials have declined to name the station because they say they don't believe the station tampered with the pumps or that its owners willfully defrauded customers".

That says it all. Some of the other pumps were over dispensing, in the customers favor.

As for my customers not admitting willfully to a felony, I review their inventory reconciliation numbers every visit. Fuel deliveries vs fuel sales. Should balance out within an EPA guideline that accounts for temperature correction as well as other factors. If there is an anomaly, there are two outcomes, leaking underground storage tank, or out of calibration pump.

I don't doubt gasoline station fraud is out there, just not as much as people think, and especially not in the USA.

[Edited on 12-1-2011 by ateo]

Bob and Susan - 12-1-2011 at 01:46 PM

ok ill do the test...give me an hour to post the results

laventana - 12-1-2011 at 01:50 PM

thanks for clarifying the black helicopters, i did take it that way and did respond in kind so no hard feelings. back to the issues.

In the USA it seems very rare to me because I do have the two tanks and will almost always run one dry and fill it. So I have maybe noticed it a handful of times in 10 years that I have had two tanks, 90k miles of driving in the US and 30 k in mexico.

I would have a hard time believing the Maine station did not know $300k of extra profit, and of course the regulators can not make such a assertion without proof so it had to be written that way.

Here is another one, got caught putting in 140 altered chips.

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/oct/09/business/fi-30669

Quote:

Investigators found 140 altered chips in 12 stations throughout Los Angeles, Orange, San Bernardino and Kern counties. Dist. Atty. Gil Garcetti referred to the alleged scheme as a "high-tech innovation used to steal money from consumers who don't know they're victimized." The altered chip would cause the pump to speed up its reading, giving the customer 7% to 25% less gasoline than indicated, officials said.

here is another one that is far more dangerous not by the gas stations....in the USA... they do similar to ATMs around the world.
http://www.mv-voice.com/news/show_story.php?id=4026

comitan - 12-1-2011 at 02:00 PM

Just a note to people that have 2 gas tanks and run them dry the in tank fuel pumps are cooled by the fuel in the tank, if you run them dry you shorten the life of the pump, this was told to me by a Mechanic.

Ateo - 12-1-2011 at 02:18 PM

Laventana: totally agree that something was not right with the Maine station. $300k should've been noticed if they were paying attention.

And thanks for the LA Times link. Interesting read.

Let me state again, fraud is out there. I'm just saying its a rare occurrence/doesn't happen as much as the consumer thinks, and is usually not intentional. Like I said in one of my first posts on this subject, I know a dealer who was giving away thousands of dollars in free guess.

Now as far as Mexico I'm sure it happens more often. I just don't agree with the "buy liters instead of a set peso amount.". In the USA you can't even authorize a pump by entering "10 gallons". You need a dollar amount! That's why the cashier will get a calculator out and multiply 10 gallons x 3.45 gallon so they can enter the total into the computer. Are we sure the Pemex guys aren't doing the same? Next time I go down I'll see if they can even enter "10 gallons". See ya!

laventana - 12-1-2011 at 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
Just a note to people that have 2 gas tanks and run them dry the in tank fuel pumps are cooled by the fuel in the tank, if you run them dry you shorten the life of the pump, this was told to me by a Mechanic.

I can not imagine people keeping the car on long once they run out of gas for the in tank to have an issue but certainly worth noting and making sure, so thanks for the info.

older ford trucks are not in the tank types, the newer ones are. here is a great site for parts where you can make the determination and great prices . http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php

I have about 300k miles on my truck and have been doing this since I bought it at 150k, again, not an in the tank version.. Also I have another new old truck right now that is diesel and has 250k miles and I am about to replace the fuel pump for preventative maintenance. the fuel pump is $24.95 and takes about 2 hours for a novice to replace. in tank pumps are about $60.00 on up from what I see.

[Edited on 12-1-2011 by laventana]

[Edited on 12-1-2011 by laventana]

laventana - 12-1-2011 at 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ateo
Laventana: totally agree that something was not right with the Maine station. $300k should've been noticed if they were paying attention.

And thanks for the LA Times link. Interesting read.

Let me state again, fraud is out there. I'm just saying its a rare occurrence/doesn't happen as much as the consumer thinks, and is usually not intentional. Like I said in one of my first posts on this subject, I know a dealer who was giving away thousands of dollars in free guess.

Now as far as Mexico I'm sure it happens more often. I just don't agree with the "buy liters instead of a set peso amount.". In the USA you can't even authorize a pump by entering "10 gallons". You need a dollar amount! That's why the cashier will get a calculator out and multiply 10 gallons x 3.45 gallon so they can enter the total into the computer. Are we sure the Pemex guys aren't doing the same? Next time I go down I'll see if they can even enter "10 gallons". See ya!

from the programming theft standpoint I am on the same page with you on the liters and pesos issue..

but i step back and think there could be a valid reason if you are putting in a cheating chip. If weights and measurements only tests by pumping say 20 liters it may actually be correct. and if entering dollars or just fill to full could be a way to do skim. so I reverse my opinion on this one, there could be something to it.. but one would need to find a station that is not accurate in the first place to test. and as many have already pointed out without them knowing you are testing. and as a programmer I would only do it after say 7 gallons in a chip.

[Edited on 12-1-2011 by laventana]

Bob and Susan - 12-1-2011 at 03:38 PM

my answer...it is what it is...

David K - 12-1-2011 at 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
my answer...it is what it is...

Bravo!!!

Another A+ :yes:

Ateo - 12-1-2011 at 04:11 PM

Bob and Susan, another great production. Thanks,
Jon

Udo - 12-1-2011 at 04:57 PM

Superb demonstration, Bob y Susan!

Bomberro - 12-1-2011 at 05:09 PM

We live in Los Barriles, for years the only gas station in town was owned by the owner of the large hotel in town. I started filling my 5 gallon gas cans in 1994. They always filled at the five gallon mark to 21 liters. This did not change until Pemex required all of the stations to modernize and install the new pumps. At about this time, another station was finally was built and of course they had accurtate pumps. I do not know of anyone that goes to the old station out of spite, I fill always at the new. I personally showed the owner of the large hotel, my gas can and how it took 21 liters, he said he was really surprised....Well, when I could in the old days I would drive to La Ribera or Santiago and of course the gas cans filled at 19 liters...The thing that has changed the most is of course the new pumps, we paid a surcharge of 10% for so many years, its the price of living in paradise.

Bob and Susan - 12-1-2011 at 05:21 PM

that was then and this is now...the answer...computers

the myth that you get screwed when you buy gas just isn't true any more

gnukid - 12-1-2011 at 06:24 PM

Try ordering fuel at 4am and you will always get the best price/liter because the temperature is coolest.

laventana - 12-1-2011 at 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Try ordering fuel at 4am and you will always get the best price/liter because the temperature is coolest.

depends if it is an underground tank or not. Or if it was just delivered. the ground temperture several feet below ground does not change much. and the expansion and contraction of a liquid in small amounts like 30 gallons should be relatively small. on a tanker truck yes it makes a difference.

vandenberg - 12-1-2011 at 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
that was then and this is now...the answer...computers

the myth that you get screwed when you buy gas just isn't true any more

They still manage to put 23 liters in our 5 gallon/19 liter cans here in Loreto. New pumps or not. Except for one station, which ,of course, does a landslide business.

Hook - 12-1-2011 at 06:37 PM

I wont name names, but there is a family that runs a Pemex fuel outlet over here that claims they were told they would be fined by Pemex if they didnt futz with their pumps and make them cheat customers the way the other Pemexs in town do.

They refused. No fine that I have heard of.

We've been all over this theory about the temperature of the fuel accounting for the difference in measured values. I really cant believe a sizable tank under several feet of dirt and concrete (and surrounded by cool dirt) would be affected much by the ambient air temp from above.

"Stretched" plastic container may account for SOME of the discrepany. But not to the degree that people report. Like 10-15% in favor of the station.

laventana - 12-1-2011 at 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
I wont name names, but there is a family that runs a Pemex fuel outlet over here that claims they were told they would be fined by Pemex if they didnt futz with their pumps and make them cheat customers the way the other Pemexs in town do.

They refused. No fine that I have heard of.

We've been all over this theory about the temperature of the fuel accounting for the difference in measured values. I really cant believe a sizable tank under several feet of dirt and concrete (and surrounded by cool dirt) would be affected much by the ambient air temp from above.

"Stretched" plastic container may account for SOME of the discrepany. But not to the degree that people report. Like 10-15% in favor of the station.

here is a document for contraction expansion co-efficient os gasoline.

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/resources/DPReportHotFuelUSA...

on a 10,000 gallon delivery that left at 60 degrees from the storage tanks (I doubt the above ground storage tanks in LaPaz ever drops to 60 degrees. ) and was delivered at 90 degrees is a 207 gallon differential. so take 1 gallon this would be 0.02 gallons.

Note, when getting your fuel from a gas station tank as being pumped it is not going to change its temperature for a long time depending on conditions like how much you bought so hours. it certainly did not change 30 degrees as it left the nozzle to a container.

[Edited on 12-2-2011 by laventana]

Ateo - 12-1-2011 at 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by laventana

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Try ordering fuel at 4am and you will always get the best price/liter because the temperature is coolest.

Exactly. Minimal. Sometimes you gain .02 liters and sometimes you lose .02 liters due to temperature correction. It all balances out. If we were doing astrophysics this could be a problem, but we're not.

Ateo - 12-1-2011 at 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
that was then and this is now...the answer...computers

the myth that you get screwed when you buy gas just isn't true any more

They still manage to put 23 liters in our 5 gallon/19 liter cans here in Loreto. New pumps or not. Except for one station, which ,of course, does a landslide business.

Report them. They are under dispensing. May be intentional or may be pumps "out of calibration".

Hook - 12-1-2011 at 08:34 PM

So, Ateo, then you must conclude that the PUMPS account for the discrepancy that so many people report, correct?

Ateo - 12-1-2011 at 08:42 PM

Temperature corrects itself. In your tank, in the UST below ground, and at the tank farm/bulk processing plant. I'm over this. U2U me if you have more concerns. Actually - don't. We're wasting time. Your #1 ripoff in Baja is the cops, fancy rentals, other gringos, and Mama Espinozas.

If you want to save gas don't step on the peddle so hard. Let's start a thread on that.

Pemex pumps may still be calibrated wrong. I won't deny that.

gnukid - 12-1-2011 at 08:42 PM

This is what gets me about mexico, if you see a crime you must stop it, report it as a witness and victim and name the perp. Takes a few minutes. Simple. You must stand up to crime. When you do it will end. It requires that you understand the price and you should call multiple enforcement people and prosecute the crime. Write down the facts. Take photos. It's pretty simple and fast when you do it, perhaps the crime may go unpunished but the message is clear. When they rob you, it's 10-20 percent or more per person!@#$% every moment, say no. It's pretty simple. Society puts up with the amount of crime it's willing to put up with.

Ateo - 12-1-2011 at 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
that was then and this is now...the answer...computers

the myth that you get screwed when you buy gas just isn't true any more

YES.

Ateo - 12-1-2011 at 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
So, Ateo, then you must conclude that the PUMPS account for the discrepancy that so many people report, correct?

Yes Hook. The pumps, if not calibrated correctly, could lead to the consumer getting ripped off - or the owner. If an owner is doing this, he's an buttcrack. Report him.

Ateo - 12-1-2011 at 09:09 PM

Quote:

We've been all over this theory about the temperature of the fuel accounting for the difference in measured values. I really cant believe a sizable tank under several feet of dirt and concrete (and surrounded by cool dirt) would be affected much by the ambient air temp from above.

"Stretched" plastic container may account for SOME of the discrepany. But not to the degree that people report. Like 10-15% in favor of the station.

Yeah, these Undergound Storage Tanks (UST) range from 10k gallons to 25 gallons in most locations. These fiberglass reinforced plastic tanks expand and contract very little. UST's are roughly 15-20' below ground and minimally affected by temperature. This is their evolved design. Used to have all steel tanks, and all leaked. In 2001, there were 21,000 cleanup sites in the USA. 250,000 tanks had leaked at that point.

If everyone would like I can get a printout of fuel levels, temperature and EVEN water in tanks, next week when back to work.

Bottom line is - you fueling up are not getting ripped off - except for the costs of these previously leaking tanks and what's passed on to you as a consumer. If you want something to worry about then worry about calibration, but even that is in justifiable limits of "being alive" and the gains and losses one is exposed to. I guarantee you've all benefited from pumps dispensing in your favor.

Just my opinion.

Bob and Susan - 12-2-2011 at 05:06 AM

alot of times the error is the consumer...

people think the red container that holds the gas
needs to be filled to the top

that just isn't true

if you have a 5 gallon container
you have a couple of inches "play"
for expansion and "bumping"

in a truck...the gas tank can be located far from the filler tube
that means a stock 20 gallon tank can hold 23 gallons...sometimes

in the usa...the pump shuts off the gas at the handle
in baja it shuts off at the pump or inside the "box"
so you can fill the tank till it over-flows

try that in california
it won't happen...well...very often

as long as people talk about being screwed at the pump the "myth" will continue...

laventana - 12-3-2011 at 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
alot of times the error is the consumer...

people think the red container that holds the gas
needs to be filled to the top

that just isn't true

if you have a 5 gallon container
you have a couple of inches "play"
for expansion and "bumping"

in a truck...the gas tank can be located far from the filler tube
that means a stock 20 gallon tank can hold 23 gallons...sometimes

in the usa...the pump shuts off the gas at the handle
in baja it shuts off at the pump or inside the "box"
so you can fill the tank till it over-flows

try that in california
it won't happen...well...very often

as long as people talk about being screwed at the pump the "myth" will continue...

again, I have been to a station and took the pump from their hand. On a motorcycle this is very common to do... Then clicked it and barely a teaspoon came out and it showed 3 liters. they tried arguing with me but I did not back down finally asking for the police to come before they would back down and saw how they reset a pump. Either you just do not believe me or only you think you know all things in baja. It is no myth...

Have two tanks and fill one at a time,,,, your where the tanks location are speculation and where the fuel flows is very imaginative and reasonable... but easily compensated for to a person who is a mechanic/engineer. Hey what do I know I just bought another old truck and pulled both fuel tanks to replace the pick-ups in them by myself. I obviously do have a mechanical ability and knowledge of the gas tank system do it. And yes, in the usa I can fill a tank to the top very easily... If you ever owned a motorcycle you learn quickly how to do it or you only get 2/3 of a tank fill up. Never found a pump in any place in the USA I could not do it. Have driven my motorcycle in nearly every state.

One other way is to do some math statistical correlation. It is very simple for those of us who have 2 tanks. when driving down I do a cost per mile calculation after filling. grant it, poor gas can be an issue in this as well as other conditions, but people it generally confirms.

Have listed even places in the USA were caught that re-chip a meter and were convicted. Maybe you believe only in the USA do they cheat.

Even with a re-chipped ones the odds are the programmer does not cheat on less than 5 gallons unless it is like the gas station I went to that does it manually via a button. And if you think about it at the station I caught, it was known that for some reason they always wanted to pump and reset the pump again to pump more. It is obvious to me why they would do this with the way I saw how their pump worked. Is it to you is the question, or should I explain.

[Edited on 12-3-2011 by laventana]

[Edited on 12-3-2011 by laventana]

[Edited on 12-3-2011 by laventana]

[Edited on 12-3-2011 by laventana]

Ateo - 12-3-2011 at 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
alot of times the error is the consumer...

as long as people talk about being screwed at the pump the "myth" will continue...

Completely agree.

As someone who does compliance inspections 5 days a week at gas stations, I can tell you the consumer is generally wrong 9 times out of 10. I observe some crazy stuff at gas stations, mostly all from customers who think they're getting ripped off, or from those that don't know how to use the pump.

It can be very funny sometimes and let it be known, if you come in yelling at the cashier (THEY ARE human beings with kids and family - not robots for you to take out your aggressions on) that your pump won't start only to be shown you haven't yet entered your zip code, pressed the 87 octane button or whatever, people laugh at you behind you back the second you go back out to pump your gas, including other customers.

laventana - 12-3-2011 at 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ateo

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
alot of times the error is the consumer...

as long as people talk about being screwed at the pump the "myth" will continue...

do you realize being cheated 1 place out of 10 places is humongous for the USA...... I would have hoped for 1 in 1000... if the ATMs made mistakes like this the finacial would would crumble.

Ateo - 12-3-2011 at 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by ateo
If everyone would like I can get a printout of fuel levels, temperature and EVEN water in tanks, next week when back to work.

You have that information for the stations in Baja that we've been discussing? Now THAT could be helpful.

I don't have that info. Sorry I haven't been helpful. Go into your local Pemex and ask them for a printout from their Veeder Root.

Ateo - 12-3-2011 at 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by laventana

Quote:

Originally posted by ateo

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
alot of times the error is the consumer...

as long as people talk about being screwed at the pump the "myth" will continue...

do you realize being cheated 1 place out of 10 places is humongous for the USA...... I would have hoped for 1 in 1000... if the ATMs made mistakes like this the finacial would would crumble.

My 9 out of 10 was in regards to customers being idiots. The 1 out of 10 would be the cashier was wrong.

As far as getting deliberately cheated I'd say your # of 1 in 1000 stations is more like it, in the USA. I've never heard of anyone deliberately tampering with pumps, except your article from 15 years ago, and those dudes were caught.

laventana - 12-3-2011 at 10:35 PM

Originally posted by ateo

Quote:

My 9 out of 10 was in regards to customers being idiots. The 1 out of 10 would be the cashier was wrong. As far as getting deliberately cheated I'd say your # of 1 in 1000 stations is more like it, in the USA. I've never heard of anyone deliberately tampering with pumps, except your article from 15 years ago, and those dudes were caught.

By the way atms are more like 6-8 sigma. 1 in 1000 would also cause the collapse of the banking ATMs.

again we have you on record with a second one I listed that was audited and the owner only made a extra 300K in just that year. And we can maybe guess you are claiming all are audited by people like you.

can you tell me the government agencies that can "verify" chips in pumps and how often these chips are tested? Do you know how to test a chip? How many people work in this agency to protect consumers and exactly how many pumps they have to check.

do you think you have a chance to stop me, a non insider who has never opened a pump in his entire life.... from putting in chips or other ways in gas pumps and you could catch me with your present ways? If you are willing to bet some serious money I am willing to do it. I love non-tech people who are so clueless to statistics and electronics. This will be an easy million.... I suggest you put up... and make my day...

[Edited on 12-4-2011 by laventana]

[Edited on 12-4-2011 by laventana]

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