BajaNomad - San Diego-based sport boat booted out of Mexico

San Diego-based sport boat booted out of Mexico

Mengano - 1-10-2012 at 10:12 AM

A San Diego-based sport boat along with several private boaters were booted out of Mexican waters Saturday shortly after noon and just one week into Mexico’s new, highly disputed visa requirement for sport anglers who fish within 24 miles of Mexico’s coastline.

The problem is Capt. Mike Schmidt’s 43 anglers aboard his sport boat, the Malihini, out of H&M Landing, had their proper Mexican visas and fishing permits, but the boat was kicked out of the Middle Grounds of the Coronado Islands and told to return to U.S. waters.

Schmidt said the captain of the Mexican navy boat that stopped him didn’t ask for visas, but instead demanded to see the Malihini’s boat permit. Such a document does not exist, according to Michelle Gandola, an official with the Sportfishing Association of California, and has not existed since 2008. Tony Estrada, an assistant in Mexico’s U.S.-based fisheries office, confirmed that such a boat permit no longer is required.

Schmidt lost more than $5,000 on the trip because he had to refund or give re-ride tickets to the anglers. Schmidt and many sport boats are discontinuing trips into Mexico until the issue of the boat permit and the visas is addressed and settled. He suffered further humiliation when the patrol boat captain made him get on his boat’s intercom and announce to his passengers that it was his fault, not Mexico’s, that he lacked the proper documents to fish in Mexico.

There were no answers from Mexico as to why Schmidt was detained and then kicked out of Mexican waters.

“It was a mistake for the patrol boat captain to ask for document that no longer exists,” Estrada said.

Meantime, Hugh Kramer, owner and president of Discover Baja, a San Diego-based company that specializes in travel to Mexico, disputes the claims by the Sportfishing Association of California and a new company, Mex Tour Assistance, that “maritime visas” are required by fishermen in Mexico.

“There is no such thing as a ‘maritime visa,’” Kramer said. “I spent six hours on the phone with Mexican immigration officials and Mexico tourism officials in recent days, and the only visa required is the FFM, which is a multi-day visa good for 180 days. It’s for multiple entries, and it’s good for 180 days. Right now that costs about $34, depending on the value of the peso. They have to get it stamped with an entry date, and then it’s good for 180 days. Fishermen don’t have to buy these visas from Mex Tour Assist.”

Ken Franke, president of the Sportfishing Association of California, said questions are swirling right now, not just about the visas, but also the boat permit that the Mexican patrol boat demanded from Schmidt on the Malihini. Franke said a meeting will be held Friday with Mexican representatives from fisheries, immigration and tourism. He’s hoping to get some definitive answers there.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/jan/09/mexican-officials...

Que poco madre.

DENNIS - 1-10-2012 at 10:19 AM

Looks like we've been embargoed. Makes me wonder when we're going to embargo all those commercial Pangas out of Popotla every night.

sanquintinsince73 - 1-10-2012 at 10:21 AM

I don't get it. Why don't these boats just stay beyond the 12-mile international limit?

J.P. - 1-10-2012 at 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Looks like we've been embargoed. Makes me wonder when we're going to embargo all those commercial Pangas out of Popotla every night.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh dont mention the Popotal Express, looks like that may quickly become OUR only escape route. :yes:

BillP - 1-10-2012 at 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
I don't get it. Why don't these boats just stay beyond the 12-mile international limit?

They're fishing structure oriented fish, 12 miles out the water is just too deep, thousands of feet deep. they need to fish shallower than 300'. The 12 mile deal is ok in the summer when fishing pelagic species like tuna that roam the open ocean.

Spearo - 1-10-2012 at 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
I don't get it. Why don't these boats just stay beyond the 12-mile international limit?

Technically, Mexico has control extending 200 miles from shore. They have the right to kick out any boat in that water. The made-up infraction used to justify it, while annoying, is certainly not without precedent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters#Exclusive_ec...

sanquintinsince73 - 1-10-2012 at 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BillP

Quote:

Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
I don't get it. Why don't these boats just stay beyond the 12-mile international limit?

Ok, I get it. Thanks.

Roberto - 1-10-2012 at 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sanquintinsince73
I don't get it. Why don't these boats just stay beyond the 12-mile international limit?

Quote:

Mexico’s new, highly disputed visa requirement for sport anglers who fish within 24 miles of Mexico’s coastline

us boat

captkw - 1-10-2012 at 11:11 AM

IT"S a sad,sad day...

Mengano - 1-10-2012 at 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spearo
Technically, Mexico has control extending 200 miles from shore. They have the right to kick out any boat in that water. The made-up infraction used to justify it, while annoying, is certainly not without precedent.

No, not true. Mexico sold those fisherman a Mexican fishing license and issued them a Mexican visa to be in their waters. Mexico gave up its rights to kick them out when it accepted money for a license and a visa. As indicated in the story, there is no longer a boat permit requirement by Mexico.

Those fisherman have a legitimate monetary claim against Mexico. Not that it would ever do them any good to make such a claim. That Mexican navy captain should be relieved of command and demoted, but that will not happen either.

BornFisher - 1-10-2012 at 11:12 AM

If you read the first sentence, it is 24 miles out!!!

Curt63 - 1-10-2012 at 11:18 AM

Damn shame!

Im guessing the Ensenada Sportfishing people are part of the equation.

Spearo - 1-10-2012 at 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mengano

Quote:

I am not saying the charter boat was not following proper procedure. I am saying that the Mexican government has the right to kick anyone out of their territorial waters which extend 200 miles from shore for reasons real or imaginary. Just because you have a drivers license doesn't mean you can't be given a ticket you don't deserve.

Woooosh - 1-10-2012 at 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spearo

Quote:

Originally posted by Mengano

Quote:

It is a rather stupid thing to do considering how hard Baja is trying to promote and attract tourists.

DENNIS - 1-10-2012 at 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
It is a rather stupid thing to do considering how hard Baja is trying to promote and attract tourists.

Goes to show you how independent the military in Mexico still is from the rest of the country. They couldn't care less about tourism and are more concerned with flexing their new-found muscles to the world.
From the Revolution til the Cartel insurgency, they didn't have a thing to do in Mexico except protect the President. Now they're a bunch of bad-asses with new toys.

sancho - 1-10-2012 at 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mengano
“It was a mistake for the patrol boat captain to ask for document that no longer exists,” Estrada said.

. Right now that costs about $34, depending on the value of the peso. They have to get it stamped with an entry date, and then it’s good for 180 days. Fishermen don’t have to buy these visas from Mex Tour Assist.”

[Que poco madre.

Mex Imm is probably unaware that a 180 day fmm costs
approx $21 not $34, the Mex Navy made a mistake yes , but
as quoted Mex has the RIGHT to deny fishing privleges,
I'm curious as to who runs this Mex Tour Assist, Gringo?
The only thing he is assisting in, is taking $ from
US Fishermen in a deceptive manner, wonder if Mex IMM
is even aware of the deception

DENNIS - 1-10-2012 at 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho
I'm curious as to who runs this Mex Tour Assist, Gringo?
The only thing he is assisting in, is taking $ from
US Fishermen in a deceptive manner, wonder if Mex IMM
is even aware of the deception

I'm not sure of his function, but Mexico Inm. is surrounded by independent agents doing their work for them, and they arn't cheap. Not mine, anyway.

US boat / Mexican revenue?

akshadow - 1-10-2012 at 01:44 PM

How many tourism dollars do boats out of San Diego really bring to Mexico? I would assume Mexico would be much better off if the fishermen took boats that were docked in Baja and crewed by Mexicans.
I doubt that Mexico really has much of a loss of tourism because of this enforcement.
Would the US allow Mexican boats to fish 8 miles off of the coast of California?

Mengano - 1-10-2012 at 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spearo
I am not saying the charter boat was not following proper procedure. I am saying that the Mexican government has the right to kick anyone out of their territorial waters ...

You seem to be missing the point. The point is the Mexican government took a fishing license fee and a visa fee from those fishermen so they would be allowed to fish in Mexican waters. You cannot charge and collect a fee for a privilege from someone and then deny them the privilege that was paid for. Not under US, Mexican or International law.

And if you believe that Mexico has the right to kick anyone out of their territorial waters, then they also have the right to expropriate all real estate owned in Mexico by foreigners without compensation...anytime they want.

Mengano - 1-10-2012 at 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by akshadow
Would the US allow Mexican boats to fish 8 miles off of the coast of California?

Sure would. You are confusing commercial fishing with sportfishing. Those Americans were sport fishing, not commercial fishing. Any Mexican can purchase a California non-resident sportfishing license and fish 8 miles off shore. He can also fish from shore and in freshwater.

bajalou - 1-10-2012 at 02:19 PM

But can he arrive in a Mexican flagged commercial(being paid for by the fishermen) boat?

DENNIS - 1-10-2012 at 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mengano
And if you believe that Mexico has the right to kick anyone out of their territorial waters, then they also have the right to expropriate all real estate owned in Mexico by foreigners without compensation...anytime they want.

Power doesn't need rights. Power makes rights.

Mengano - 1-10-2012 at 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
But can he arrive in a Mexican flagged commercial(being paid for by the fishermen) boat?

Well, they don't "arrive" because they don't land at a US port. But I have news for you, all those cruise liners that ply US waters are foreign flagged and are operated for commercial purposes. And again, sportfishing, is not commercial fishing. Sportfishing has daily bag and species limits and restrictions. Don't confuse the two.

sancho - 1-10-2012 at 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
But can he arrive in a Mexican flagged commercial(being paid for by the fishermen) boat?

Nice hypothetical, why should the Popotla pangas
running 20 illegals at a time, risking their lives 40 mi.
at sea, just get Ca. Fishing Licenses and cruise up
the SD Coast pretending they are fishing?

DENNIS - 1-10-2012 at 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mengano
And again, sportfishing, is not commercial fishing. Sportfishing has daily bag and species limits and restrictions. Don't confuse the two.

Splitting hairs, are you Mengano? That sport fishing boat is certainly a commercial venture.

Mengano - 1-10-2012 at 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho
Nice hypothetical, why should the Popotla pangas running 20 illegals at a time, risking their lives 40 mi. at sea, just get Ca. Fishing Licenses and cruise up the SD Coast pretending they are fishing?

Because out here in the real world, where people know what they are doing, the US Coast Guard can tell on sight the difference between a boat with some people fishing and a panga with 25 people on board heading North.

Besides, as anybody else can tell you, a fishing license is not a visa.

Mengano - 1-10-2012 at 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Splitting hairs, are you Mengano? That sport fishing boat is certainly a commercial venture.

No, these are defined terms in the law. Recreational fishing, also called sport fishing, is fishing for pleasure or competition. It can be contrasted with commercial fishing, which is fishing for profit.

Now contrast that with chartering a boat for profit. Do you understand that the chartering of a boat and fishing from the boat are two different things? If the fish caught do not belong to the boat's master, and he cannot sell them, and they are caught by licensed sport fisherman who also cannot legally sell them, then the boat is not engaged in commercial fishing.

DENNIS - 1-10-2012 at 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mengano
Now contrast that with chartering a boat for profit. Do you understand that the chartering of a boat and fishing from the boat are two different things? If the fish caught do not belong to the boat's master, and he cannot sell them, and they are caught by licensed sport fisherman who also cannot legally sell them, then the boat is not engaged in commercial fishing.

But...putting the craft up for charter, regardless of the onboard activities, is a waterborne business.

[Edited on 1-10-2012 by DENNIS]

The Gull - 1-10-2012 at 04:32 PM

Whaaaat? The Mexican Navy does not accept mordida or the SD operations don't offer it?

Bad policy either way.

DENNIS - 1-10-2012 at 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull
Whaaaat? The Mexican Navy does not accept mordida

Don't need it. They have the Merida Initiative. We pay for that too.

Nice to see you here Sr. Gull.

J.P. - 1-10-2012 at 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Power doesn't need rights. Power makes rights.

If you are informed as you say you are they can do the same thing in the U.S. regarding your property :saint:

larryC - 1-10-2012 at 06:28 PM

Have to agree with Mengano on this one. Sure a charter boat is a business but it is not engaged in "commercial fishing". As Mengano said, they have to abide by the sport limits and species limitations imposed by Mexican law. If they were doing that, and there is no indication that they weren't, then they shouldn't have been asked to leave Mexican waters. I used to own and opereate a dive charter boat out of San Diego, at that time ( before the year 2000) in order to enter Mexican waters every one on board had to have a Mexican fishing license and the boat had to have a boat license. At that time for my boat it was about $250 a month. Plus the cost of the indivdual fishing license. Pretty much made Coronado Islands too expensive. They (the Mexican govt.) did allow that if there were no fishing activities and no one on board had any fishing gear, then we could dive the Coronado Islands without permits. I was boarded on 2 occasions and did not have any problems.
Larry

EnsenadaDr - 1-10-2012 at 07:04 PM

Things have changed...there was no Arizona crisis...now payback is a B#(@h!!
We as Americans have to pay for the actions of the federal and state government through no fault of our own...

Mia culpa...

EnsenadaDr - 1-10-2012 at 07:11 PM

Wow...getting on the intercom and the captain having to announce it was his fault reminds me of the hostage situation when the Iraquis would make the US hostages on international television state the US was at fault..what's next??? televised public beheadings???

Quote:

Originally posted by Mengano
A San Diego-based sport boat along with several private boaters were booted out of Mexican waters Saturday shortly after noon and just one week into Mexico’s new, highly disputed visa requirement for sport anglers who fish within 24 miles of Mexico’s coastline.

The problem is Capt. Mike Schmidt’s 43 anglers aboard his sport boat, the Malihini, out of H&M Landing, had their proper Mexican visas and fishing permits, but the boat was kicked out of the Middle Grounds of the Coronado Islands and told to return to U.S. waters.

Schmidt said the captain of the Mexican navy boat that stopped him didn’t ask for visas, but instead demanded to see the Malihini’s boat permit. Such a document does not exist, according to Michelle Gandola, an official with the Sportfishing Association of California, and has not existed since 2008. Tony Estrada, an assistant in Mexico’s U.S.-based fisheries office, confirmed that such a boat permit no longer is required.

Schmidt lost more than $5,000 on the trip because he had to refund or give re-ride tickets to the anglers. Schmidt and many sport boats are discontinuing trips into Mexico until the issue of the boat permit and the visas is addressed and settled. He suffered further humiliation when the patrol boat captain made him get on his boat’s intercom and announce to his passengers that it was his fault, not Mexico’s, that he lacked the proper documents to fish in Mexico.

There were no answers from Mexico as to why Schmidt was detained and then kicked out of Mexican waters.

“It was a mistake for the patrol boat captain to ask for document that no longer exists,” Estrada said.

Meantime, Hugh Kramer, owner and president of Discover Baja, a San Diego-based company that specializes in travel to Mexico, disputes the claims by the Sportfishing Association of California and a new company, Mex Tour Assistance, that “maritime visas” are required by fishermen in Mexico.

“There is no such thing as a ‘maritime visa,’” Kramer said. “I spent six hours on the phone with Mexican immigration officials and Mexico tourism officials in recent days, and the only visa required is the FFM, which is a multi-day visa good for 180 days. It’s for multiple entries, and it’s good for 180 days. Right now that costs about $34, depending on the value of the peso. They have to get it stamped with an entry date, and then it’s good for 180 days. Fishermen don’t have to buy these visas from Mex Tour Assist.”

Ken Franke, president of the Sportfishing Association of California, said questions are swirling right now, not just about the visas, but also the boat permit that the Mexican patrol boat demanded from Schmidt on the Malihini. Franke said a meeting will be held Friday with Mexican representatives from fisheries, immigration and tourism. He’s hoping to get some definitive answers there.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/jan/09/mexican-officials...

Que poco madre.

Bajafun777 - 1-10-2012 at 10:11 PM

Had a friend that had a home taken from him in Mexico and he filed a claim with U.S.A. Government to get his loss of monies from those monies U.S.A. and Mexico agreed to put into a holding bank for losses incurred from people in either Country from bad business practices. He used the issue of Mexico Banks, Mexico Government Officials etc. as the reason for the claim in his loss. He still has this claim running no outcome yet.

I thought his claim was stretching the business loss thing but this boat captain would be on firm ground for filing a claim on dollars in holding from Mexico with N.A.F.T.A. agreements. No harm in trying just not sure about the ins and outs but some attorney sure will be if in fact this is a source of action for people. Take Care & Travel Safe----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

LancairDriver - 1-10-2012 at 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
It is a rather stupid thing to do considering how hard Baja is trying to promote and attract tourists.

Bought and paid for by the US taxpayer.(Or at least the 50% who pay taxes)

DENNIS - 1-10-2012 at 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LancairDriver
Bought and paid for by the US taxpayer.(Or at least the 50% who pay taxes)

If this doesn't bring Jesse out from underneith his bed, nothing will.
I agree, none the less.

mtgoat666 - 1-11-2012 at 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mengano

Quote:

chucky:
the news story said the boat lacked proper permits. possessing a visa does not release you from requirement to have a permit. some gringos say succh permits don't "exist." perhaps these gringos say the permit does not exist because they just don't have the permit. perhaps the permits do exist.

mtgoat666 - 1-11-2012 at 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mengano

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Splitting hairs, are you Mengano? That sport fishing boat is certainly a commercial venture.

all sounds like commerce to me!

Lobsterman - 1-11-2012 at 07:23 AM

I've been fishing the Coronado Islands and the close by deep dropoffs since 1975 & 1985 from my own boat.

I am sure most of you have heard about the boats getting boarded and turned back from the island over a bogus boat permit that no longer in exists. This leads me to believe as I suspected, that this whole sham is being conducted from Baja California with the result being to increase sportfishing out of Ensenada. They want the anglers to get so frustrated with the fees and BS that they will stop fishing on US boats and instead drive down to Ensenada.

Further proof of this can be seen in the actual Visas issued to those leaving the US landings. These supposedly "new" "sea" visas are not new and are not specifically for entry by sea as has been suggested. They are the same visas used when you land on a plane in Mexico and are given to all of the passengers for free. This is simply extortion, plain and simple.

elskel - 1-11-2012 at 10:32 AM

The FMM's given on planes and driving over the border are not free. It is built into the plane ticket and you pay the approx. $22 at the border when crossing. The FMM is good for 180 days.

akshadow - 1-11-2012 at 10:55 AM

Arguments as to what is commercial and what is "sport" is a common argument between the usual commercial fleet and sport fishing groups in Alaska. Generally falling out as different fishing limits for many species if you are on a charter with captain. People on a bare boat charter are treated like the usual sport fisherman on their own boat.
There is no doubt in my mind that charter boats with a captain are commercial enterprises. They may not be commercial fishermen but they should be subject to rules concerning people who run a business. Mexico should have the right to issue regulations, rules, charge fees and enforce these rules.

sancho - 1-11-2012 at 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lobsterman
These supposedly "new" "sea" visas are not new and are not specifically for entry by sea as has been suggested. They are the same visas used when you land on a plane in Mexico and are given to all of the passengers for free. This is simply extortion, plain and simple.

Where in the heck did you get that idea that the fmm/
Tourist Card is free? The fmm has been inexistance since
5/1/2010 always cost approx $22, before that the
fmt had a similiar price dating back to 12 yrs. or so , fmt was
free before that. Flying the price of the fmm is embedded
in the price of your ticket. There is conflicting info from
Mex IMM, on 1 hand, they say the ONLY place you can
get the New Fishing Visa is in Ensenada, not the border
crossings, at the same time say you can use the
regular 180 day fmm you get at the Border, that there
is no difference, it's Mexico

[Edited on 1-11-2012 by sancho]

[Edited on 1-11-2012 by sancho]

sd - 1-11-2012 at 12:29 PM

Original post says a meeting will take place Friday. With several San Diego long range boats fishing this area, have any others had issues? Seems unusual that only one boat would be turned back.
I have no facts, just curious.