BajaNomad - Mision info, David K... do you speak Spanish?

Mision info, David K... do you speak Spanish?

juanga - 3-14-2012 at 08:32 AM

FYI I hope You likes

SACERDOTE ASESINADO
EN LOS CABOS DESCUBREN LOS

RESTOS DEL MISIONERO NICOLAS TAMARAL

Uno de los hallazgos antropológicos más importantes

Encuentran también el sitio original de la misión de San José del Cabo Añuití

Por Cuauhtémoc Morgan

Una visita poco común recibió el obispo de La Paz, Miguel Ángel Alba Díaz, en agoto de 2007. En sus oficinas lo aguardaba una persona que buscaba entrevistarse con él.

Amable, como siempre ha sido, el obispo cuestiona a este personaje, quien es devoto católico, sobre el motivo de su visita.

─Padre, hemos descubierto los restos del misionero Nicolás Tamaral, están sepultados en San José Viejo junto con sus objetos personales.

El obispo guardó silencio ante tan sorpresiva aseveración y puso atención a su interlocutor, quien narró paso a paso la forma en que ha sido descubierto el sitio original de la misión de San José del Cabo Añuití tan llena de historia. Además en dos excavaciones, fueron hallados los efectos personales del sacerdote jesuita asesinado el 3 de octubre de 1734 en una rebelión de la tribu pericú, suceso que causó en esa época un gran impacto por la importancia de la obra de evangelizadora que emprendió la iglesia católica en la antigua California.

Luego de evaluar por varios minutos la trascendencia de este hallazgo, el obispo solicitó al visitante guardar respeto y discreción por el sagrado lugar y esperar un mejor momento para ahondar en las investigaciones, dada la importancia antropológica e histórica que implica este hallazgo fortuito.

PROTOMÁRTIRES DEL CRISTINISMO

La difícil obra evangelizadora iniciada en las Californias a partir del arribo de los misioneros jesuitas a Loreto en 1697, estuvo plagada de sufrimientos de todo tipo, debido a las carencias y a la gran dificultad que significó cambiar el estilo de vida de los habitantes originales de esta desértica región.

La difusión del cristianismo y la conversión de los nativos, fue realizada por decenas de misioneros que fundaron poblaciones y rancherías a lo largo de la península y que fueron los primeros asentamientos humanos permanentes. Dos de estos valerosos misioneros fueron Lorenzo Carranco, originario de Cholula, Puebla y Nicolás Tamaral, europeo sevillano. El primero se estableció en la misión de Santiago y el segundo, fundó la misión de San José del Cabo Añuití en 1730, cuyo sitio original estuvo en lo que hoy conocemos como el poblado La Playa.

Cambiar el modo de vida de los Californios, fue una labor difícil de realizar para los sacerdotes católicos. Y es que los nativos eran nómadas, y polígamos. Por eso fue muy complicados asentarlos en los sitios misionales y hacerles entender que debían matrimoniarse con una sola mujer. Además ellos amaban su libertad y solo estaban acostumbrados a trabajar en épocas determinadas.

La influencia de los misioneros sobre las tribus, provocó el celo de los “guamas” o cabecillas de los grupos Californios, quienes fomentaron la animadversión de sus congéneres hacia los extranjeros que los hacían cambiar su modo de vida.

De hecho, el misionero jesuita Juan Jacobo Baegert en su libro “Noticias de la Península Americana de California”, describe al pueblo Pericú como “sumamente altanero, inquieto e inaguantable”. En ese marco ocurre una rebelión, un levantamiento diferente a los que antes se habían enfrentado los sacerdotes.

En el sur del estado en 1734 los indios pericúes Boton y Chicori, alborotaban al pueblo secreta y sigilosamente. El objetivo de esta conspiración, según describe Baegert era: “matar a los misioneros, destruir todo rasgo o indicio de la religión cristiana que apenas hace unos diez años la habían abrazado y volver a vivir como antes, sin temor ni oposición, en plena libertad”.

Así las cosas, un grupo importante de indígenas se reúnen el 2 de octubre de 1734 y se trasladan a la misión de Santiago donde asesinan a flechazos, pedradas y garrotazos al sacerdote jesuita Lorenzo Carranco. Fue este un asesinato cruel, realizado con mucho odio y rencor a tal grado que un niño californio que ayudaba al padre en la misión lloraba en el lugar de los hechos, pero fue tomado de sus pies y estrellado contra las paredes la misión hasta causarle la muerte.

Un día después el grupo de pericúes se trasladó a la misión de San José del Cabo Añuití, donde acaba de oficiar la santa misa el padre Nicolás Tamaral. El sacerdote ya se encontraba en la casa de descanso a un costado de la misión hasta donde entran los rebelados, lo derriban y lo arrastran hacia afuera. Ahí el misionero fue atacado con flechas y ya moribundo uno de los alzados lo apuñala “con un cuchillo largo”, según describe Baegert. Junto con Nicolás Tamaral fue destruida también la misión de San José del Cabo Añuití que quedó en el abandono.

De eso forma, Lorenzo Carranco y Nicolás Tamaral se convierten en los protomártires del cristianismo en Las Californias y son un triste recuerdo en la difícil evangelización de esta tierra.

EL DESCUBRIMIENTO

Tuvieron que transcurrir 220 años para que los restos de esta misión fueran descubiertos. Los actuales moradores del lugar solicitaron al reportero mantener en secreto el sitio de la misión, así como las identidades de quienes se han involucrado en los hallazgos, “hasta que la iglesia católica determine lo conducente”.

Es en la población de San José Viejo donde se hizo este hallazgo a mediados de los años 50 del siglo pasado. Al buscar sitios para extraer agua con tecnología rudimentaria, los miembros de una familia realizaron varias excavaciones en su propiedad. En una de estas excavaciones fue encontrada la campana de la misión de San José. En otra de las excavaciones, fueron hallados los restos del padre Nicolás Tamaral, su sotana y otros efectos personales y objetos propios de la iglesia. El patriarca de la familia ordenó que todo esto se enterrara de nuevo, que ya no se siguiera excavando más en la zona “porque yo no deseo tener problemas con cosas de la iglesia”.

Su orden determinante fue obedecida y las cosas encontradas fueron colocadas de nuevo en su lugar, sin embargo los dos sitios fueron señalados con marcas.

Este reportero tuvo oportunidad de ir al sitio de la misión. “Aquí han venido investigadores de otros países y nos preguntan sobre la misión, nosotros pues les damos la poca información que tenemos porque no sabemos mucho de eso”, dice una de las residentes que señala los cimientos de la iglesia sobre los cuales ahora ha construido su vivienda.

Se trata de las bases de la nave principal sobre la que estaba asentada la misión. En estos cimientos se pueden apreciar las ruinas sobre lo que fue una construcción adyacente a la nave principal, que bien puede ser el sitio de descanso del sacerdote. Me piden no tomar fotografías del lugar. Parte de la vivienda se encuentra sobre estos restos arqueológicos.

En el fondo se pueden apreciar los dos sitios que fueron marcados y en los que “nadie ha querido intervenir, las ordenes de mi abuelo fueron que las cosas permanecieran tal cual y hasta el momento nadie ha movido nada, todo ha sido secreto”.

Hoy, solo se espera la determinación del actual jerarca de la iglesia en Baja California Sur para dar a conocer uno de los descubrimientos antropológicos más importantes en los últimos años, y que pueden revelar más datos sobre la obra de los misioneros y su convivencia con los nativos pericúes.

La muerte del misionero Nicolás Tamaral fue determinante en la evangelización de las Californias. Es un triste recuerdo para la iglesia católica que lo rememora de manera permanente con los mosaicos del frontispicio de la misión de San José del Cabo, donde está plasmada la muerte del sacerdote.
La misión de San José del Cabo en la actualidad. En su frontispicio, mosaicos representando la tragedia del Padre Tamaral.

La Misión de San José del Cabo, fue establecida por el Padre Nicolás Tamaral, en el mes de abril de 1730 después de haber consagrado a Dios las primicias de la misión en el bautismo de un crecido número de párvulos, celebrado el sábado de gloria del mismo año, después de haber aislado a muchos adultos entre catecúmenos, se puso a buscar un lugar más apropiado para la misión, porque aquel en que se había establecido al principio era muy caliente, muy abundante en moscos y otros insectos perniciosos, y debía ser también malsano por hallarse encerrado entre dos montes. Hallado el lugar a dos
leguas de mar, traslado la misión, edificó la iglesia y casa, consagro en dos poblaciones diversas tribus de salvajes sacadas de los bosques, y se dedicó con tanto celo a su conversión e instrucción, que en el primer año bautizó entre párvulos y adultos 1036, lo cual es tanto más admirable cuanto menos dispuesto estaban aquellos salvajes a abrazar el cristianismo.

“Es, dice, sumamente difícil reducirlos a que dejen el gran número de mujeres que tienen, porque entre ellos es muy numeroso el sexo femenino. Basta decir que los hombres más ordinarios tienen cuando menos dos o tres mujeres. Este es el obstáculo más invencible tanto para los hombres como para las mujeres, para estas porque se ven repudiadas por sus maridos, no hallando quien las quiera, y para ellos, porque cuanto mayor es el número de sus mujeres, están mejor servidos y cada una procura llevar al marido lo mejor que encuentra para ganarle el afecto con preferencia a las otras. Es pues un milagro de la
divina gracia conseguir que estos hombres perezosos y acostumbrados a una vida bestial, se resuelvan a contentarse con una sola mujer, a buscar los alimentos para sí mismos y para sus hijos y a tener una vida racional”.

La misión fue atacada en numerosas veces por los pericúes, quienes en cierta ocasión muy dolorosa mataron al Padre Tamaral en el año de 1734. Y la misión fue abandonada en un lugar que se encontraba aproximadamente a 50 kilómetros al sur de la que corresponde a Santiago, cambiándose posteriormente a donde hoy se conoce como San José del Cabo. Del sitio cambiado, no existe ningún indicio físico en que poder basarnos y hacer una descripción.

De acuerdo al inventario de la misión que se levantó el 25 de junio de 1773 dice lo siguiente;

“Tiene esta misión, una iglesia de jacal, muy reducida y ruinosa; su adorno es un altar con un sagrario dorado muy viejo, una imagen de San José, de talla quebrada, con su Niño Jesús, ambos con la aureola de plata; la vara del santo es de latón y la flor de plata. La casa de los padres misioneros es de adobe y barro, con techo de jacal; tiene una salita y cuarto, bastante reducidos.

De esta misión original hoy no queda nada, solo dibujos de su existencia en aquellos años según el padre Ignacio Tirsch.

Información del gobierno del estado de Baja California Sur.

[Edited on 3-14-2012 by BajaNomad]

BING TRANSLATOR

David K - 3-14-2012 at 10:03 AM

(I speak some Spanish, here is the computer's translation):

MURDERED PRIEST
LOS CABOS DISCOVER THE

REMAINS OF THE MISSIONARY NICOLAS TAMARAL

One of the most important anthropological findings

They are also the original site of the Mission of San José del Cabo Añuití

By Cuauhtemoc Morgan

A rare visit received the Bishop of La Paz, Miguel Ángel Alba Díaz, in August 2007. A person seeking to confer with him looked it in their offices.

Nice, as always has been, the Bishop questioned this character, who is a devout Catholic, on the reason for your visit.

& # 9472;Father, we have discovered the remains of the missionary Nicolás Tamaral, are buried in San José Viejo along with their personal belongings.

The Bishop remained silent before such surprising assertion and paid attention to his partner, who narrated step by step the way in which the original site of the Mission of San José of the Cabo Añuití so full of history has been discovered. In addition two excavations were found the personal effects of the Jesuit priest killed on 3 October 1734 in a rebellion of the tribe pericú, event caused at that time a great impact by the importance of the work of evangeliser embarked on the Catholic Church in the old California.

After evaluating the significance of this finding for several minutes, the Bishop asked the visitor save respect and discretion by the sacred place and wait for a better time to delve into research, given the historical and anthropological importance involving this fortuitous discovery.

PROTOMÁRTIRES OF THE CRISTINISMO

The difficult work of evangelisation began in the Californias from the arrival of Jesuit missionaries at Loreto in 1697, was plagued sufferings of all kinds, due to the shortcomings and the great difficulty which meant change the lifestyle of the original inhabitants of this desert region.

The spread of Christianity and the conversion of the natives, performed by dozens of missionaries who founded towns and ranches along the peninsula and were the first permanent human settlements. Two of these courageous missionaries were Lorenzo Carranco, originating in Cholula, Puebla and Nicolás Tamaral, Seville European. The first was established in the Mission of Santiago and the second, founded the Mission of San José del Cabo Añuití in 1730, whose original site was in what is today known as the beach town.

Change the way of life of the Californios, was difficult for Catholic priests to work. And is that the natives were nomadic, and polygamous. Why was very complicated to settle them in missionary sites and make them understand that they should matrimoniar with a single woman. They also loved their freedom and were only used to work at certain times.

The influence of the missionaries on the tribes, led to the zeal of the "guamas" or ringleaders of groups Californios, who encouraged the animosity of their peers towards foreigners who made them change their way of life.

In fact, the Jesuit missionary Juan Jacobo Baegert in his book "American in California peninsula la news", describes the Pericú people as "extremely arrogant, restless and unbearable". In this context is a rebellion, an uprising different from those who had earlier faced the priests.

In the southern part of the State in 1734 Indians pericú button and Chicori, rowdy people secretly and silently. The objective of this conspiracy, as it describes Baegert was: "kill the missionaries, destroy all trait or indication of the Christian religion who just about ten years ago her had embraced and return to live as before, without fear of opposition, in full freedom".

Things, an important indigenous group met on 2 October 1734 and move to the Mission of Santiago where murder arrows, stones and sticks to the Jesuit priest Lorenzo Carranco. This was a cruel murder, carried out with much hatred and resentment to the extent that a child californium which helped the father in the mission cried at the scene, but was taken from his feet and crashed against the walls the Mission until death.

A day later the pericú group moved to the Mission of San José del Cabo Añuití, where just officiate mass father Nicolás Tamaral. The priest was already in the House on one side of the mission where they enter the rebelled, demolished it and drag it outward. Hence the missionary was attacked with arrows and already dying stabs it one of the rebels "with a long knife", as described Baegert. Together with Nicolás Tamaral was also destroyed the Mission of San José del Cabo Añuití in abandonment.

That way, Lorenzo Carranco and Nicolás Tamaral become the protomártires of Christianity in Las Californias and are a sad memory in the difficult evangelization of this land.

THE BOAST

motoged - 3-14-2012 at 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
(I speak some Spanish, here is the computer's translation):
.... a sad memory in the difficult evangelization of this land.
THE BOAST

Religious imperialism (evangelization) is a sad memory for many cultures around the world.... :no:

DianaT - 3-14-2012 at 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by motoged

Religious imperialism (evangelization) is a sad memory for many cultures around the world.... :no:

[Edited on 3-14-2012 by DianaT]

David K - 3-14-2012 at 04:16 PM

150-450 years ago many things were done differently than we would do them now... The natives of the new lands were not all pure and innocent either... There was bad and good then, and now.

The natives/ Indians commited atrocities to each other, as well... including slavery, murder, cannibalism, and the killing of unwanted infants... wait, we still do that today!

woody with a view - 3-14-2012 at 04:19 PM

religion sucks! nothing against anyone in particular, as i went to catholic school thru 5th grade, but more wars have been fought over campfire stories, i mean religion....

David K - 3-14-2012 at 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
religion sucks! nothing against anyone in particular, as i went to catholic school thru 5th grade, but more wars have been fought over campfire stories, i mean religion....

Yup

bacquito - 3-14-2012 at 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
religion sucks!

Agree!

DianaT - 3-14-2012 at 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
150-450 years ago many things were done differently than we would do them now... The natives of the new lands were not all pure and innocent either... There was bad and good then, and now.

The natives/ Indians commited atrocities to each other, as well... including slavery, murder, cannibalism, and the killing of unwanted infants... wait, we still do that today!

A very common and sad rationalization for religious imperialism :no:

And Woody, I agree---most organized religion is very much like the stories told around a campfire and no country has ever gone to war unless "GOD" was on their side, who ever he, she, it or they may be.

[Edited on 3-14-2012 by DianaT]

J.P. - 3-14-2012 at 05:08 PM

There has ben more atrocities commited aginst mankind in the name of GOD than any other cause :no:

JerryThomas - 3-14-2012 at 05:56 PM

Twentieth Century Killed, by Cause

CAUSE TOTALS AVERAGES
(in millions) (per 100,000 population)
----------------
Government 119.4 349
Communist 95.2 477
Other non-free 20.3 495
Partially free 3.1 48
Free 0.8 22
----------------
War 35.7 22
International 29.7 17
Civil 6.0 26
----------------
All figures rounded. Source: various historical materials.

Cisco - 3-14-2012 at 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by J.P.
There has ben more atrocities commited aginst mankind in the name of GOD than any other cause :no:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. "

Ateo - 3-14-2012 at 06:19 PM

One of my favorite anti-religion quotes:

Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.

I'm glad the mission era is over, but the evangelizing has just morphed, evolved, and traveled to different locations in the world.

I sure love the architecture of the missions, but that's about it.

Islandbuilder - 3-14-2012 at 10:20 PM

This is a sensitive topic for many, just not for anyone who has posted thus far. :barf:

How many millions were killed during the Russian/Soviet revolution and subsequent purgings? How about the wars that ravaged SE Asia, or the French revolution? Far more people have died in the process of being "liberated from their oppressors" than through being "converted"

When you want real, wholesale, commercial grade genocide, it's political differences, not religious, that lead the body counts.

That said, I'm not defending the religious zealots of any stripe who have abandoned their founding documents in favor of personal gain or political advancement.

As someone above alluded to, humans are prone to some very ugly behaviors, and it doesn't matter if you're a priest, an imam, or a presidential candidate. None of us is immune. So we had better leave off the bashing, and deal with the reality that the "them" we love to condemn, is really just "us".

DianaT - 3-14-2012 at 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Islandbuilder
........ So we had better leave off the bashing, and deal with the reality that the "them" we love to condemn, is really just "us".

While I completely disagree with this statement, I do find it a very interesting perspective.

Islandbuilder - 3-14-2012 at 10:49 PM

I understand Diana, it's much more comfortable to think that some of us are better. Then to further decide that the "better" people agree with us, because, heck, we're good people, right?

Once we've decided we, and people who agree with us, are better than others, it gives us the moral imperative to help those people who are not better, to get that way.

The hubris that attitude is wrapped up in, is the motivating force behind the evils that you are all blaming on religious imperialism, but is in fact a part of the human condition. It seeps into every human enterprise. Some of us blame the government, some blame corporations, some the church, and others blame humanists. But the only true answer is that it's us, we all are the screwed up ones.

No war has ever begun by someone admitting they might be wrong, or that the other side has some admiral qualities. Pride and arrogance are the problem, not religion, or education, or pay grade, or world view.

Unfortunately, pride and arrogance are universal in us all, some of us are more socialized than others, but that doesn't mean we're not infected.

DianaT - 3-14-2012 at 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Islandbuilder
I understand Diana, it's much more comfortable to think that some of us are better. Then to further decide that the "better" people agree with us, because, heck, we're good people, right?

Once we've decided we, and people who agree with us, are better than others, it gives us the moral imperative to help those people who are not better, to get that way.

The hubris that attitude is wrapped up in, is the motivating force behind the evils that you are all blaming on religious imperialism, but is in fact a part of the human condition. It seeps into every human enterprise. Some of us blame the government, some blame corporations, some the church, and others blame humanists. But the only true answer is that it's us, we all are the screwed up ones.

No war has ever begun by someone admitting they might be wrong, or that the other side has some admiral qualities. Pride and arrogance are the problem, not religion, or education, or pay grade, or world view.

Unfortunately, pride and arrogance are universal in us all, some of us are more socialized than others, but that doesn't mean we're not infected.

Again, interesting perspective with which I mostly disagree.

And disagreeing with you certainly is not a statement or a belief that some of us are "better" than others, but then again, you are certainly entitled to your interpretations and your personal philosophy regarding the nature of human beings.

But I certainly would not assume I know what thinking makes you more comfortable.......only you can know that.

mtgoat666 - 3-14-2012 at 11:07 PM

Quote:

is mr mission defending the missionary position?

Islandbuilder - 3-14-2012 at 11:08 PM

Can't have it both ways Diana, either we're all more or less equal, differing only in how we manifest or sublimate our egotistical leanings, or some of us are simply better than others.

If you're able to ignor the historical impacts that have come from one group of people being convinced that they're better than another group, you have better rose colored glasses than I do! :cool:

Of course, some of us may be too proud to admit that.

[Edited on 3-15-2012 by Islandbuilder]

DianaT - 3-14-2012 at 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Islandbuilder
Can't have it both ways Diana, either we're all more or less equal, differing only in how we manifest or sublimate our egotistical leanings, or some of us are simply better than others.

If you're able to ignor the historical impacts that have come from one group of people being convinced that they're better than another group, you have better rose colored glasses than I do! :cool:

Bill, that really makes little sense to me as it really is not how I see the world except the part of people oppressing another group of people because they feel they are superior---I understand that and agree and it is often backed by religion---the idea of my god is better than your god.

But overall, my perspectives, philosophy and spiritual beliefs are quite different. And pride has nothing to do with it.

I guess your philosophy works for you, but not for me. But I still find your writing and thoughts interesting.

[Edited on 3-15-2012 by DianaT]

dtbushpilot - 3-14-2012 at 11:25 PM

Islandbuilder, X2.....dt

Why is it that we find the need to blame someone or some organization (religous, political, ethnic, whatever) for our shortcomings? The world is a tough place to live, always has been, always will be....as long as people are here....

[Edited on 3-15-2012 by dtbushpilot]

David K - 3-15-2012 at 09:10 AM

Islandbuilder... wow, very well said! :light:

vgabndo - 3-15-2012 at 10:28 PM

Islandbuilder

If you don't think some people with very specific beliefs don't think they are better than their neighbors, just come out as an atheist.

Are some people better than others? I submit that 150 years after Darwin and Wallace proposed a new theory for the origin of species, contrary to the Christian Bible, that man is in a much better position to judge the relative merits of the two theories.

I could go into a lot of detail, but I think these facts are significant. The National Academy of Sciences is composed of one of the most astounding collections of human minds ever assembled. They are relentlessly competitive in challenging the findings of their peers, and digging deeper every day for the truth.

Between 85% and 95% of the members of the NAS do not believe in any god or life after death. There are 600 Nobel laureates among the membership. With most every new remarkable scientific discovery, comes more proof that Darwin got it right. I would describe these as good people with good motives, and the common decency to publish their proofs.

On the other hand, I am first expected to believe that everything that exists was created in a week 5700 years ago. I don't really need to go any farther. That foolishness has been as roundly disproved as the claim that the Sun orbits the Earth, yet millions of my neighbors continue to dutifully, unquestioningly worship the myth.

Here's where it gets pernicious.

The Bible tells Christians that they should hold dominion over the world. People who disagree will learn the the lamb of God wields a mighty bloody sword.

I take particular offense to the Christian conservatives today who, as part of Dominionism, are doing all they can to meddle in the private reproductive decisions OWNED by every woman. Not a zygote is to be lost! Yet, the moment that innocent perfect being is born it is infected by its Christian parents with a belief that nothing it can humanly do in its life can ever save it from eternal torment, because it was born with Satan's own original sin because someone disobeyed a talking snake. They will then go about preparing to be "raptured" into the sky at any moment because they are special.

I submit that this attitude is likely to result in a citizen with less interest in planning for the future. This is a citizen with no need or desire to compromise with those whom they disagree. They have a history of believing what they're told without question, and their leaders put one church above country. When they got the government to do that, they got a problem with me.

This is the twenty-first century, the chosen people have had the same 150 years to come up with a talking snake. Even with the finest level of divine guidance there is no proof of any of the extraordinary claims.

I feel I have an enlightened self interest to live in a culture where people are first responsible, and if not, accountable. That they be truthful, direct, concise, and clear in their communication. That they be committed to not harming others. These are my values, and I am proud to contrast them with the Christian system which can be faulted for even mentioning the "moral" values of scapegoating. The devil made me do it. (sure) and Jesus died for my sins. If there is anything else to pay, it will be collected after I'm dead.

CIVIL justice has more people locked up in one nation under God, than any other civilized nation. Seven times more than China. Think about it.

My conclusion is that some people are "better" than others....sorry.

(Doug, isn't there some "highjack" corner we could go when we're having fun?)

dtbushpilot - 3-15-2012 at 11:32 PM

Ok, so between 85 and 95% of the members of the NAS (let's just call it 90%) don't believe in God or life after death....there are 600 Nobel laureates in this group (a group comprised of folks such as Barak Obama who won the Nobel Peace Prize for no apparent reason). That leaves 10% of those bright folks as well as the vast majority of the human race that believes in some form of God and life after death....
I guess that proves it, we're on our own....let's all quit clinging to our "guns and religion" and get behind the "new political order" that awaits us......
Sorry for the hijack of the hijack, just sayin.....dt

vgabndo, I'm amused by your "tag lines" on your post, my tag line sums up my feelings of your observations.....

[Edited on 3-16-2012 by dtbushpilot]

vgabndo - 3-16-2012 at 10:36 AM

DT, I think you miss the international significance of Obama being given the Peace Prize. That was the world saying to America: "Congratulations and thank you for throwing out George Bush and his people, that was a hugely peaceful move."

The fact that so many people believe in an imaginary friend in the sky has been thoroughly investigated by science. I don't know of any organic or physical science explanation, but obviously psychology defines the thinking of people who deny all credible evidence to hold a secure belief in, for instance: 80 million years of dinosaurs lived at most a day or two, and big flood was sent by God, and all the animals on the planet that wouldn't fit on a wooden boat drown and their bones turned into stone in 5700 years.

Maybe if one is lucky enough to get through their first few irreversibly formative years without being made to go to Sunday School for indoctrination, as was my good fortune, it is a little easier to see the foolishness of magical thinking.

I am frequently amazed that otherwise competent people will suddenly shamelessly admit to me that they believe in talking snakes! I have been trying not to judge them, but with schools everywhere standing ready to help them understand what we've learned about the earth, they refuse to take the offer. So I judge.

Barry A. - 3-16-2012 at 10:52 AM

Therein lies the problem, Vag---------"you judge"--------just like the Christian (etc) zealots you condemn, "you judge"..

As an Agnostic, I try only to "judge" the zealots on both sides, and wonder why they are what they are, and why they feel a need to bash others that don't agee with them, or worse legislate against their interests.

I think we can travel a higher road than that of "judging" others "beliefs", or at least stay out of legislating against them.

But of course that is just my opinion and conclusion.

Barry

Islandbuilder - 3-16-2012 at 10:28 PM

Well, I think it's important to make a passing acknowledgment of the unintended but blatant hijack of what was in it's own right, an interesting thread!

Vagabundo, about all I can say is that I read in your posts a noteworthy quantity of faith, no one has produced, as you said, a talking snake. But it's also true that no one has produced an amino acid (let alone a Bach or DaVinci) out of sea water, hydrogen and lightning. None of us are basing our beliefs completely on scientific facts, faith plays a part.

You have crafted some pretty traditional Christian strawman arguments, and knocked them down just like rationalists have done for centuries. None of the beliefs you assign to Christians are mine, but I understand your points, and see no need to argue them.

My main point in getting involved in a discussion that has nothing to do with why I frequent this fine site, is that some comments made regarding the lethal consequences of religious belief were simply not true. Human conflicts have claimed millions of lives over the millennia, and some of those have most certainly been triggered by religious differences, but the far greater body count is fairly blamed on wars brought on by political differences.

My concern with the idea that some people feel either intellectually, morally or ethnically superior to others (a condition that can probably be blamed for ALL human conflicts) is that whenever one group has decided it is morally acceptable to malign another group based on superficial criteria, that maligned group usually ends up lined up at the edge of a ditch that they just dug, waiting for the "superior beings" to put them into the ditch with a bullet.

Interesting that someone would find an objection to the idea that our communities would work far better if we approached one another with respect (without mocking their beliefs, for example) and in an attitude of humility (because it is obviously true that none of us know everything, and we all mess up sometimes even when we're trying to do good).

I am willing to make this my last post on this hijack, so I will give others the last word. This has been a great conversation, thank you all!

[Edited on 3-17-2012 by Islandbuilder]

vgabndo - 3-16-2012 at 10:47 PM

Barry, I might agree except that at least from the stand point of legislation it HAS been done and I and 30 million others are NOT represented by the National Motto or the Pledge to the flag.

These people have imposed their god on me all my life.
If it is real, a god should be able to let us know somehow; like simultaneous e-mails to everyone on earth in their own language.

Certainly SOMEONE has prayed for proof to throw at us!

You got real heavy on the JUDGE. I use that word very advisedly and in this case to judge that in general terms (rational vs god driven) some people ARE "better" than others.
This is just common discrimination in my mind. If you need cancer surgery do you call a urologist or someone who claims they can heal you by touching you while talking to their imaginary friend in the sky. :lol:

Thanks for the conversation.

David K - 3-16-2012 at 10:51 PM

I am enjoying your thoughts on this, Islandbuilder! In reality, that is very much what I believe... I just don't have the patience to post and debate with those here I know would love to challange me... I find slinging some mud much easier (but in a friendly way, naturally)! :lol:

David K - 3-16-2012 at 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Barry, I might agree except that at least from the stand point of legislation it HAS been done and I and 30 million others are NOT represented by the National Motto or the Pledge to the flag.

These people have imposed their god on me all my life.
If it is real, a god should be able to let us know somehow; like simultaneous e-mails to everyone on earth in their own language.

Certainly SOMEONE has prayed for proof to throw at us!

You got real heavy on the JUDGE. I use that word very advisedly and in this case to judge that in general terms (rational vs god driven) some people ARE "better" than others.
This is just common discrimination in my mind. If you need cancer surgery do you call a urologist or someone who claims they can heal you by touching you while talking to their imaginary friend in the sky. :lol:

Thanks for the conversation.

Perry, isn't a 'thing' like this enough proof?:

(Photo taken by Russ, posted on Baja Nomad Dec. 20, 2011)