BajaNomad - Drivers Head South To Mexico For Cheaper Gas

Drivers Head South To Mexico For Cheaper Gas

Woooosh - 3-20-2012 at 09:17 AM

This excerpt is def news to me, and I don't believe it is true:

“There may be an unknown quality of the gasoline that they're purchasing in Mexico, and they certainly likely would void the warranty of their vehicles' engines,” Dehaan said.

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/03/19/us-drivers-...

"As gas prices skyrocket, drivers are looking south of the border for some alternatives to ease the pain at the pump.
But there's growing concern that bargain-seekers could be putting their lives at risk. The national average for a gallon of gas is hovering around $3.80 right now -- $4.35 in California, according to AAA, and some analysts think it'll keep climbing as we head into summer.

So it's no wonder in cities along the border -- people are driving into Mexico to fill up their tanks -- where the price for a gallon of gas is around a $1.50 less. "I do work with a lot of people who do go across the border for gas and other stuff, but they're risking their lives. There's no way I would do it," said Elizabeth Perdoza, a driver from El Paso.

And that's one worry. The U.S. State Department has issued travel alerts because of drug cartel violence. "It just goes to show how much Americans believe in low gas prices and how far they're willing to go,” said Patrick Dehaan, senior petroleum analyst for GasBuddy.com.

The reason it's so cheap is because the Mexican government regulates prices. "The economy relies on cheaper gasoline, because residents can't afford the higher cost,” Dehaan said.

But while the price may be right for some -- the same can't always be said about how good the product is. “There may be an unknown quality of the gasoline that they're purchasing in Mexico, and they certainly likely would void the warranty of their vehicles' engines,” Dehaan said. That's not going to stop some drivers who say if prices keep rising, Mexico is one way to help get by. "For $5 down here, and cheaper down there -- like around $2 a gallon -- I would go down there," said truck driver David Flores.

There's no way to really track how many American drivers are going to Mexico for fuel -- but analysts at GasBuddy.com estimate it's in the thousands."

David K - 3-20-2012 at 09:30 AM

Mexican gas is better... no stinkin' ethynol, so your mileage will go up... using less fuel and that is better for the enviroment then putting corn syrup in your car! :smug:

Pompano - 3-20-2012 at 09:31 AM

Hmmm...I have been using Mexican petroleum products steadily from November through May annually for 40 years now...never had any engine problems due to the fuel produced in Mexico.

If I were a US border resident I would naturally take advantage of the fuel price difference. But...seeing as how North Dakota is on the border with Canada..not Mexico...I will pass on driving there to top off my tanks.

J.P. - 3-20-2012 at 09:42 AM

Don't the Pemex Stations in the Border Region Usuall raise the price to discourage border jumpers buying gasoline

better gas

captkw - 3-20-2012 at 09:42 AM

DAVID, is correct !! (again)......K&T :cool:

sancho - 3-20-2012 at 10:32 AM

Some time back I recieved a detailed message from a BCS
resident, in such detail I would not doubt his
conclusion, that contrary to the above opinions
that Mex gas is far inferior to the US. Octane
that Pemex lists is subsatncially lower than claimed. I can
get to San Felipe and back without getting Mex
gas, sometimes tasking a 5 gal can of US gas,
I aviod Mex gas if possible

David K - 3-20-2012 at 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by J.P.
Don't the Pemex Stations in the Border Region Usuall raise the price to discourage border jumpers buying gasoline

Back when the U.S. prices were lower than Mexico's (yes, during those bad Bush years)... the Pemex stations demanded that they have prices that stayed near U.S. prices so their customers would not cross north to buy cheaper U.S. gasoline!

Pemex granted them that wish, but they made it clear it wouldn't do it again... Thus, the border region prices were matched... but now, with U.S. prices higher than Mexico's... the border area Mexicans can drive 20 kms. south for the standard gas price.

Be careful what you wish for, is the lesson learned!

J.P. - 3-20-2012 at 10:57 AM

I really wasnt looking for a lesson just stating what i know.
My cars havent had any gas from NOB for so long they probably wouldnt burn it. :lol:

David K - 3-20-2012 at 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho
Some time back I recieved a detailed message from a BCS
resident, in such detail I would not doubt his
conclusion, that contrary to the above opinions
that Mex gas is far inferior to the US. Octane
that Pemex lists is subsatncially lower than claimed. I can
get to San Felipe and back without getting Mex
gas, sometimes tasking a 5 gal can of US gas,
I aviod Mex gas if possible

Back 20+ years or more ago, Pemex octane was different and lower.

Around 1973, they renamed their regular Supermex to 'Nova'... and despite a higher claim it only had an octane of 79.

Their higher grade 'Extra' was unleaded and about 87 octane. The problem was outside of cities, you could only get Nova... so we either added octane booster or retaded our engine timing to prevent pinging. Nova translates to 'Doesn't Go'!

Later, they dropped Nova and changed Extra to 'Magna Sin' and added 'Premium'. The octane ratings match U.S. ratings now... and much of Pemex gas is refined in Texas.

bent-rim - 3-20-2012 at 11:02 AM

I've never goten bad gas in Baja. At least in my truck or motorcycles. Me personaly, yes.

David K - 3-20-2012 at 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by J.P.
I really wasnt looking for a lesson just stating what i know.
My cars havent had any gas from NOB for so long they probably wouldnt burn it. :lol:

You did ask a question:
"Don't the Pemex Stations in the Border Region Usuall raise the price to discourage border jumpers buying gasoline"

So, I thought you would like an answer... and I do try to be complete... there are thousands reading Baja Nomad, so the info. can be appreciated by more amigos. No lesson intended.

mes1952 - 3-21-2012 at 08:10 AM

I have been using Pemex gas for almost 2 years and NEVER buy American gas and not had any problems with my Toyota RAV4.

nbacc - 3-21-2012 at 09:12 AM

Never had any problems with Baja gas but to go over to get it........hum. Unless I had Sentri the wait in line would not be worth it on most days. Nancy

high fructose corn syrup

mtgoat666 - 3-21-2012 at 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Mexican gas is better... no stinkin' ethynol, so your mileage will go up... using less fuel and that is better for the enviroment then putting corn syrup in your car! :smug:

ethanol derived from corn is very different than corn syrup,... but your point reminded me of an interesting study. gringos eat a lot of corn syrup, and gringos are getting heavier.

ethanol addditive as a fuel oxygenate to improve our air quality may result in a few percent decline in vehicle mileage, but increasing girth of is wasting more fuel:

=================

Fat weighs on fuel efficiency

from Oil and Gas Journal

09/06/2010

Advocates who want to reduce the use of fossil fuels through improved mileage for gasoline and diesel vehicles have a new target—human fat.

No, they're not talking some macabre new biofuel. They're simply pointing out that it takes more fuel for big-bellied, broad-butted Bubba to drive around in his full-size pickup truck than for skinny Minnie in her small economy vehicle.

"One socioeconomic implication of obesity is that it reduces passenger vehicle fuel economy," said Sheldon H. Jacobson, director of the simulation and optimization laboratory in the computer science department at the University of Illinois.

In 2006, Jacobson and doctoral student Laura McLay found US cars and light trucks consumed as much as 938 million gal/year of additional fuel due to the increased number of overweight and obese motorists since the 1960s.

In a follow-up study in 2008, Jacobson and doctoral student Douglas King found the amount of additional fuel escalated some 200 million gal to 1.137 billion gal/year, said a University of Illinois article on the web site, ww.physorg.com.

Jacobson estimates more than 39 million gal/year of fuel are necessary to transport each additional 1 lb of average gain among US motorists.

Just as smaller, lighter alternative vehicles are coming on the market, US residents are getting bigger.

"Without taking into consideration the growth trend of overweight and obesity and its impact on vehicle demand, long-term government interventions are likely to miss the intended policy goals in reducing gasoline consumption and carbon dioxide emissions," said Shanjun Li, Yanyan Liu, and Junjie Zhang in a 2009 discussion paper for Resources of the Future, Washington, DC.

They said, "Our simulation results suggest that if the rate of overweight and obesity in 2005 had stayed at the 1981 level (20 percentage points lower), the average mpg of new vehicles demanded would have been 24.04 instead of 22.99. This implies a 4.6% saving in gasoline consumption over vehicles' lifetime."

Size offsets engineering

Obesity is offsetting automobile engineering for better fuel economy. The auto industry has a fuel economy target of 24 mpg for 2011 model light trucks that is expected to save more than 250 million gal/year of fuel. But according to Jacobson and McLay, that savings will be eliminated by increased fuel consumption due to an average weight gain of 6.4 lb among US residents.

A motorist who can barely squeeze his broad bottom into a booth at his favorite all-you-can-eat buffet isn't likely to shoehorn himself into a fuel-efficient mini-vehicle that looks like it might crumple like an aluminum can under his weight. Portly drivers are more likely to opt for full-size vehicles that provide more room and comfort. And even then, they may not click on seatbelts that aren't designed for people their size.
In addition to getting fatter, US residents also are getting taller, up an additional inch since the 1960s, Jacobson reported. "To address this, our new study looked at the distribution of body mass index, instead of the distribution of weight," he said.

CDC weighs in

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta said in August the US overall estimated prevalence of obesity was 26.7%, up from 25.6% in 2007, 23.9% in 2005, and 19.8% in 2000.

CDC reported the prevalence of adult obesity ranged from 18.6% in Colorado to 34.4% in Mississippi. No state met the Healthy People 2010 minimal obesity target of 15%, but nine had obesity prevalence greater than 30%, compared with none in 2000.

US problems with obesity and fuel-dependency are so inner-twined "we cannot hope to tackle one without also tackling the other," Jacobson said.

"The growing obesity problem is a major symptom of our nation's addiction to oil. We prefer to ride when we should walk."

Nor is the problem limited to the US.

Jacobson cited "a recent surge in overweight and obesity rates in China" that he claims correlates with increased automobile ownership, indicating the problem will become international as more nations become affluent.

willardguy - 3-21-2012 at 09:49 AM

so do pemex stations close to the border charge more and if they do how far south till they dont?

David K - 3-21-2012 at 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by willardguy
so do pemex stations close to the border charge more and if they do how far south till they dont?

In my reply above: " ... Thus, the border region prices were matched... but now, with U.S. prices higher than Mexico's... the border area Mexicans can drive 20 kms. south for the standard gas price."

That is the 20 km. south of the border, not just border crossings. La Rumorosa (for example) is over 20 km. from Mexicali or Tecate, but is right near the border itself... and it has the higher prices.

BajaGeoff - 3-21-2012 at 12:07 PM

Pemex really had a gas product called Nova?

"No va" translates to "doesn't go"!

willardguy - 3-21-2012 at 12:27 PM

what do ya figure the dollar difference is between border and 20km price. and where does rosarito land? thanks

bajagrouper - 3-21-2012 at 12:30 PM

I crossed 2 weeks ago at Sonoyta / Lukeville, the gas purchased about a mile from the border was 9.91 pesos per liter the same as the mainland price....

My car has an onboard computer that shows MPG and in the US I get 30 MPG, in Mexico I get 37 MPG....go figure.......

Bajaboy - 3-21-2012 at 12:39 PM

At least in the San Diego area, if you need to drive to Mexico to get gas to save a few dollars, you need to get a life...my time is far more valuable.

bajalou - 3-21-2012 at 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajagrouper

My car has an onboard computer that shows MPG and in the US I get 30 MPG, in Mexico I get 37 MPG....go figure.......

No ethanol added.

Bajaboy - 3-21-2012 at 12:44 PM

Quote:

Maybe talk to your Republican friends about getting rid of the farm subsidies.....

Woooosh - 3-21-2012 at 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Maybe talk to your Republican friends about getting rid of the farm subsidies.....

never have figured that one out. Why spend more energy turning corn into energy than it gives back? Sugar cane is superior. Why not grow that for energy and feed the corn to hungry people and livestock? I never got it... well, except for the subsidy money part driving ethanol.

[Edited on 3-21-2012 by Woooosh]

rts551 - 3-21-2012 at 12:56 PM

goes right along with the oils subsidies, and "cut, just not in my back yard!"

Bajaboy - 3-21-2012 at 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
goes right along with the oils subsidies, and "cut, just not in my back yard!"

yep...or drill just not in my back yard/beach etc.

J.P. - 3-21-2012 at 02:48 PM

Just maybe DK needs to put a Poop tank on the back of his Tacoma and run it on Methane Gas Its seem's the one thing he is full of. :lol:

David K - 3-21-2012 at 03:30 PM

I would love to see oil wells off our coast if there is oil there... It is the view of FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE. The fishing would improve greatly, for one thing, but the ability to tell Hugo Chavez and the sheiks of the Middle East to go suck their own oil, because we have plenty here in America is the best reward...

The 'not in my backyard' mentality is from the Kennedy compound when they heard that someone wanted to put up wind generators near their precious beach.

Oh, J.P. that is really some class you got there amigo... typical when they can't debate on logic or facts they go with insults.

J.P. - 3-21-2012 at 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I would love to see oil wells off our coast if there is oil there... It is the view of FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE. The fishing would improve greatly, for one thing, but the ability to tell Hugo Chavez and the sheiks of the Middle East to go suck their own oil, because we have plenty here in America is the best reward...

The 'not in my backyard' mentality is from the Kennedy compound when they heard that someone wanted to put up wind generators near their precious beach.

Oh, J.P. that is really some class you got there amigo... typical when they can't debate on logic or facts they go with insults.

I have seen your logic when you repeatedly attack those that dont agree or ouestion your lack of logic. :lol:

[Edited on 3-21-2012 by J.P.]

David K - 3-21-2012 at 03:47 PM

Define 'attack' compared to 'assist' or 'teach'... How about bad language or personal attacks... can you find ONE in the past year?

I am here to help others, or share the Baja experience, and to make friends... Because I have an over-abundance of Baja to share, it bothers some and they lash out with cheap shots or insults... Like this one: "Just maybe DK needs to put a Poop tank on the back of his Tacoma and run it on Methane Gas Its seem's the one thing he is full of."

For most however, they appreciate that I go the extra kilometer to help or share my collection of books, maps, photos and memories. The amount of thanks and keep it up message I get far outweigh the peey posts like this one from you.

Baja Nomad should be a fun experience... Why not embrace the good and not waste any more time with the bad or the ugly? Peace?

DavidE - 3-21-2012 at 04:10 PM

Don'tcha love all the hyperbole?

All of the gasolina meaning every last drop sold in Baja California (not Sur) comes from the Pemex / Shell Oil Deer Park TX joint venture refinery. Base stock gasolines are bought, sold and traded in the USA.

Thanks to a 2 day visit to the Pemex refinery in Celaya I learned that USA gasolina is better than made in mexico gasolina. But the Baja California/USA gasolina does not contain Shell oil Co. proprietary additives for driveability. IOW no nitrogen based additive which is supposed to compete with chevron's techron.

I compared tank after tank of ethanol gasolines to chevron in the USA and obtained 8.5% consistently poorer fuel economy. Sorry, but I don't have thirty cents a gallon to waste on whatever marginal benefits Archer Daniel Midland has bribed congressmen to accept for us poor fools.

Mainland gasoline including baja sur seems to vary from good to fair. I use an additive which makes the fuel seemingly indistinguishable from USA fuel.

sancho - 3-22-2012 at 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
but the ability to tell Hugo Chavez and the sheiks of the Middle East to go suck their own oil

While you're at it, tell Canada and Mexico to shove it,
they are the 2 top exporters of oil to the US,
I just read Pemex is sinking an exploratory well on
your PRECIOUS beach, Shell Isle

Bajaboy - 3-22-2012 at 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Define 'attack' compared to 'assist' or 'teach'... How about bad language or personal attacks... can you find ONE in the past year?

I am here to help others, or share the Baja experience, and to make friends... Because I have an over-abundance of Baja to share, it bothers some and they lash out with cheap shots or insults... Like this one: "Just maybe DK needs to put a Poop tank on the back of his Tacoma and run it on Methane Gas Its seem's the one thing he is full of."

For most however, they appreciate that I go the extra kilometer to help or share my collection of books, maps, photos and memories. The amount of thanks and keep it up message I get far outweigh the peey posts like this one from you.

Baja Nomad should be a fun experience... Why not embrace the good and not waste any more time with the bad or the ugly? Peace?

Well here is one instance when you attacked the messenger and not the message:

It's like they live is some kind of fantasy land where more people on food stamps is better than more people who don't need them! Just okay the pipe line from Canada and BOOM, thousands of new jobs and a direct supply of what we need. Seriously, liberalism IS a mental disorder! http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=58676&pag...

I encourage discussion but often times you go a bit too far with your "Liberals don't believe in freedom, America, etc." bs.

DavidE - 3-22-2012 at 12:13 PM

I read some of the WikiLeaks diplomatic exchanges with our embassies in latin america. The only thing I can say is we are lucky that these countries do not have nuclear weapons! The arrogance shown by US big shots is disgraceful.

If you want good old-fashioned in your face "United Fruit Company" graft and corruption in our US congress, may I recommend examining ARCHER DANIELS MIDLAND? This octopus had designs on entering Mexico, spending billions in bribe money to Mexican officialdom to force corn syrup into the soft drink market ar a price far lower than either what it cost to produce, or is being sold to anyone in the US. When the sugar market collapsed in Mexico ARCHER DANIELS MIDLAND would then raise the price of corn syrup multi-fold. This is the same colossus that bought its way into our US congress in order to force CORN SYRUP ALCOHOL into our gasoline supply rather than alcohol made from SUGAR BEETS that is 4 X 10 times more productive per acre. Alcohol from sugar beets would be significantly cheaper than Archer Daniels Midland corn syrup.

After what corporate looters did to our economy and is continuing with crude oil speculation, I have lost all confidence and all RESPECT for US industry, and leadership. I remember Newt Gingrich throwing a fit back in the nineties crying that "SOCIAL SECURITY FUNDS should be invested in the stock market".

LOOT***LOOT***LOOT***LOOT***LOOT***LOOT***LOOT*LOOT

Barry A. - 3-22-2012 at 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
I
I remember Newt Gingrich throwing a fit back in the nineties crying that "SOCIAL SECURITY FUNDS should be invested in the stock market".

LOOT***LOOT***LOOT***LOOT***LOOT***LOOT***LOOT*LOOT

----- it was a good idea then, and is now. I have 80% of my net-worth invested "in the stock market", and have for the last 40+ years. My average annualized return for the past 3 years (as of Jan 1) has been an astounding +13.9% (per year) (about 45% invested overseas). Long term, I am about annualized + 11%. Now THAT is a good way to remain solvent, it would appear to me---especially since I only take out 3% per year, and let the rest build and build.

What the repubs have been calling for is THE CHOICE to invest a PORTION of your SS funds in the "Market", not the whole thing (tho I would if I could) But this is all academic to me since I get no Social Security anyway.

I say all this not to brag, but to refute the myth that "the Market" is so scary and that you will lose your shirt.

Barry

sancho - 3-22-2012 at 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
My average annualized return for the past 3 years (as of Jan 1) has been an astounding +13.9% (per year) (about 45% invested overseas). Long term, I am about annualized + 11%. .

Barry

Outstanding Barry, I'm getting 'to that age' trying
to find out where to stash cash, wish I wasn't such
risk adverse

Barry A. - 3-22-2012 at 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho

Quote:

Outstanding Barry, I'm getting 'to that age' trying
to find out where to stash cash, wish I wasn't such
risk adverse

Sancho-------gosh, even the Vanguard Index 500 Mutual Fund has averaged about +7% annualized for the long haul----not bad, really. There is "risk" short term, but for the long term for the person who does not have any really good source of information it is hard to beat the "Index 500". Go to the Vanguard Funds website and take a look at all the funds and their returns, and their annualized returns long term--------Most are pretty darn good!!!---there are a few clunkers, but that shows up fast when you look at the stats. I love Vanguard and T. Rowe Price for excellent Mutual Funds with low fees.

Sure beats CD's and/or worse stashing it under the mattress, I believe. All depends on your comfort level, of course, and therein lies the problem--------I always think "long term" and I don't have a turnover rate of more than about 15% of my stocks annually, average--------no "day trading".

Barry

DavidE - 3-22-2012 at 02:33 PM

Go ask the pension funds such as CALPERS just how well they did from 2008 - 2011. If hundreds of billions of dollars were to inflate the market the jackals won't be far behind and you can take that to the bank :-)

chuckie - 3-22-2012 at 06:24 PM

Is CALPERS an additive?

El Camote - 3-22-2012 at 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chuckie
Is CALPERS an additive?

No. I believe it's a gland in the human male reproductive system.

David K - 3-22-2012 at 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Zac, "liberalism" is not the "messenger" it is a political theory or practice. The line: 'Liberalism is a Mental Disorder' is the title of a best selling book (by Michael Savage), so that came to my mind. In no way was it implied by me to be a name for anyone.

If liberal ideas worked, then we would not have any problems at all... But, any time a liberal idea is tried on any problem, it makes that problem worse, it enslaves more people, and it makes the government bigger to run it. That's lose, lose, lose... I am for win, win, win for America.

I love all people as a rule... even liberal people (they need the most love)... So, while my conservative logic may baffle you because of so many years of hearing how bad conservatives are (from rich liberals, who want to keep taking our money for them and their failed programs), I assure you that my goal is the most freedom for everyone and prosperity that comes with freedom.

A liberal measures compassion by how many people he has given aid to... A conservative measures compassion by how many people no longer need it!

That is also expressed by the old saying, "you can give a man a fish so he can eat for a day... or you can teach a man how to fish and he can feed himself forever."

Have you seen the bumper sticker that says "Annoy a liberal, get a job" ?

So, I apologize if you heard me calling you (or anyone here) a name... I was just expressing my thoughts on a failed method, not a person.

Have a great weekend!!

David K - 3-22-2012 at 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
but the ability to tell Hugo Chavez and the sheiks of the Middle East to go suck their own oil

While you're at it, tell Canada and Mexico to shove it,
they are the 2 top exporters of oil to the US,
I just read Pemex is sinking an exploratory well on
your PRECIOUS beach, Shell Isle

Mexico and Canada are our friends and neighbors... You don't see that as being different than the places I named???

Don't you believe in helping friends and neighbors? I do!

Ateo - 3-23-2012 at 07:35 AM

Here's an interesting quick read about US energy independence.....

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/03/could-us-act...

Could the US Actually Become Energy Independent?

Despite cries about high gas prices, the fight over Keystone, and attacks on the administration's energy policies, The New York Times says the United States is actually much closer to energy independence than it has been in decades. Last year, the U.S. imported 45 percent of its liquid fuel from other countries, which is a huge drop from the record highs of just six years ago. Not only that, the country has actually become a net exporter for refined petroleum and could soon do the same for natural gas. If current trends in production and demand keep up — big ifs, as always — the long-held dream of not relying on anyone else for power could actually become a reality.

Not that President Obama will get any credit for it. His Republican challengers have spent most of the last year attacking him as a sort of "green warrior" would rather protect animals and his buddies in the solar panel industry than keep prices down. The truth is that despite some high profile fights, like the on-again/off-again Keystone pipeline extension, the current administration has kept up many of the policies of the last one. That's a fact that infuriates environmentalists, many of whom believe that the president hasn't done nearly enough to rein in oil companies, protect sensitive lands and waterways, or promote alternative energy. (Nuclear doesn't count.) Many of the gains in production have come as a result of more offshore drilling and new technologies like fracking, that have questionable effects on the environment. The result is a President who is taking heat from all sides; mostly for consequences — high gas prices and increased smog — that he has no control over.

Still, the idea that America could someday produce all its own energy remains pretty tantalizing. Perhaps even more than $2.50 gas. Stories like North Dakota's jobs boom or 50 miles per gallon cares feel pretty good, even in the face of burning tap water or mysterious earthquakes. Never mind the joy of sticking it to those Saudi kings. No matter who gets the credit or how we eventually get there, it's an idea everyone can get behind. Then once we get the oil problem solved we can fight wars over water instead.