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Trawlers

chuckie - 4-20-2012 at 03:35 PM

Today I counted eight trawlers in the Mulege area..Conception bay was thick with nets...

Cypress - 4-20-2012 at 03:49 PM

Those nets have killed the Bay of Conception. The inshore fisheries are dead. A few pelagics make it there year after year, fewer each year. Yet, they continue to wrap the whole area with gill nets, trawls, etc. :no:

Russ - 4-20-2012 at 05:01 PM

:fire:

rts551 - 4-20-2012 at 05:19 PM

kinda like oil... there to be used.

Cypress - 4-20-2012 at 05:21 PM

rts551, there to be used....

rts551 - 4-20-2012 at 05:26 PM

Cypress, How do we decide what is to be conserved and what is not? I was being slightly sarcastic to make the point.

Cypress - 4-20-2012 at 05:54 PM

When the mature adult fish are gone the fishery is in trouble. How many large snapper and grouper do they catch in the Sea of Cortez? Not many. Pelagics come and go, they're smaller and less plentiful each year. The resident fish? Mostly gone.

rts551 - 4-20-2012 at 06:47 PM

One argument is that the ocean is very large, 71%of the earth, and will always have fish. you may just have to go to another spot. How is that different than the argument about oil?

J.P. - 4-20-2012 at 07:14 PM

It's not just down there,last night at dusk I counted 6 trawlers positioning in the bay in front of the house here in Punta Banda they work until dawn and then roll up. :fire:

LaPazGringo - 4-20-2012 at 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Those nets have killed the Bay of Conception. The inshore fisheries are dead. A few pelagics make it there year after year, fewer each year. Yet, they continue to wrap the whole area with gill nets, trawls, etc. :no:

And cause you say it, it's true, right? :rolleyes:

LaPazGringo - 4-20-2012 at 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Cypress, How do we decide what is to be conserved and what is not?

We don't. "They" do. "They" don't seek, nor do "they" need our blessing or criticism. And trust me, this isn't the place to get all the facts. This thread is a perfect example of that.

Russ - 4-20-2012 at 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by whistler
Seiners, trawlers or gill netters?

Yes
The laws are on the books and have been long enough to set priorities if officials wanted to resurrect the inshore fisheries they could have paid attention years ago. I'm going to say Cypress is spot on! The sky has fallen. I am just so frustrated with the whole fisheries subject get sick just thinking about it. So don't ask me to argue a point. I just don't have the heart any longer. :barf:

Cypress - 4-21-2012 at 02:32 AM

LaPazGringo you are intitled to believe whatever you want. The Sea of Cortez consists of over 60,000 square miles of water. A good portion of that area is barren. That's one of the reasons the commercial boats concentrate in certain areas.

chuckie - 4-21-2012 at 03:41 AM

Who cares what kinda boats? Big boats with lots of big nets...Way too many of them...I have been here for over 30 years and have never seen this many....Wasnt/isnt there some sport fish organaztion that was leading the charge on enforcement of laws? What happened to that..The were a few years where we didnt see so many...

acadist - 4-21-2012 at 05:29 AM

Unfortunately thier pesos are paid in a more direct route than my sportsmans' pesos. :no:

LaPazGringo - 4-21-2012 at 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
LaPazGringo you are intitled to believe whatever you want. The Sea of Cortez consists of over 60,000 square miles of water. A good portion of that area is barren. That's one of the reasons the commercial boats concentrate in certain areas.

And it's also widely considered to be the most pristine body of water on Earth, which is why National Geographic is here year round. All the fear-mongering and ill-informed dire predictions on this forum remind me of the doomsdayers of the 70s and 80s who made all sorts of outrageous claims about the Amazonian rain forest.

ligui - 4-21-2012 at 06:48 AM

It was one of the most pristine bodies of water . Where have you been ?

LaPazGringo - 4-21-2012 at 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ligui
It was one of the most pristine bodies of water . Where have you been ?

Check your facts. It's easy to do. Just cause some guys on an internet forum tell you the Sea of Cortez is "dead" doesn't mean it's true. It's honestly laughable...

ligui - 4-21-2012 at 07:12 AM

Sorry LaPazGringo , not looking a fight , but i've been diving for years an i've seen the facts with my own eyes . Ask every fishermen if they think the fishing and sealife is getting Better ? I never said it was Dead , but maybe you should look at the facts , get in the water and see the changes that have taken place over the years it's sad.

Say what you want , it isn't what it was . And that is a fact. :spingrin:

Russ - 4-21-2012 at 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LaPazGringo

Quote:

Originally posted by ligui
It was one of the most pristine bodies of water . Where have you been ?

Check your facts. It's easy to do. Just cause some guys on an internet forum tell you the Sea of Cortez is "dead" doesn't mean it's true. It's honestly laughable...

Whoa! It ain't funny! And yes you're welcome to voice your opinions and I believe that those of us expressing the "dead" description of the SOC have seen the decline of the fisheries over a long period without any enforcement of the law, in most areas, and are frightened that there is little hope to rescue an amazing resource. I doubt the bounty of the SOC 30 years ago will ever be seen but there examples world wide of fisheries recovering.
However, there also examples of fisheries not recovering because of stocks being taken below a level for recovery. ( 1 example: Pudget Sound cod) I really didn't want to get into this again but when you say "Check your facts." the red flags went off and I had to respond. I would like to see a reference to where these "facts" are. And, Yes, I still fish. I just don't catch all the time anymore.

Pescador - 4-21-2012 at 08:51 AM

There were 8 seiners in front of Santa Rosalia yesterday morning and they all had full nets. Most are trapping sardines, but the by-catch of Mackerel and other fish is nothing short of amazing. This is also the time of the year that the local pangueros are using gill nets to "Wrap Net" which is done when the yellowtail are feeding on the small fish that are close to shore. The panga puts out a large circular gill net and since they are so close to shore and the rocks, they put several divers overboard to move the nets into the center. They are taking everything that gets caught in the net including yellowtail, cabrilla, parrot fish, trigger fish, pargo, and probably even the small colored Sargent Majors. One group from San Bruno hauled in over 20 tons in the last week and half.
In just the last three years since this practice has become widespread, the yellowtail fishing has gone seriously downhill in our area. Local fishermen who have been plying these waters their entire lives are unable to catch enough yellowtail to provide for their families. Since the squid have moved to the north in the last couple of years, many fishermen have had to sell their boats and equipment and are trying to do other things. Thank goodness the Boleo mine in Santa Rosalia has offered a real chance in employment opportunities.
So no arguing with La Paz Gringo, but anyone with a little common sense knows that any farmer who takes more from the land than it can support is quickly going to find themselves with vast tracts of unproductive land. Mexico truly needs to get a handle on how poorly she is managing her ocean resources but I don't see much on the horizon that gives me any sense that is happening. The East Cape has put in place some programs that have stopped a lot of the destructive netting practices and there has been a strong recovery in that area. The cooperatives on the other side of the peninsula have done a great job in managing their fisheries and populations are doing well in the areas of Asuncion, La Bocana, and Abreojos.

David K - 4-21-2012 at 08:57 AM

Where is Skeet?

LaPazGringo - 4-21-2012 at 11:41 AM

Okay, so there's some sensationalism going on here. Some say the SOC is dead and I disagree. The fact is that the SOC is widely believed to be the most pristine body of water left on Earth.

We're all in agreement that we'd like it to get better. But throwing our hands up and saying they won and it's over is not the solution. As far as "getting in the water" I've dove and fished from Gonzaga Bay to Cabo Pulmo and the water is clean as a whistle and life is super abundant. Don't believe me? Go look at the condition of places like the Bay Islands and Cozumel over the last 20 yrs. They're not even recognizable.

Again, I'm not sure what's motivating the dire predictions of woe but it's not based on fact. And I'd venture to say that it's much more regulated than this thread would have you believe. Go fishing for a day in Bahia de Los Angeles with Rafael and he'll tell you how strictly enforced it is up there. While the fisheries management doesn't have the same viewpoint you or I do, they are regulating commerical fishing. To say they're not is simply not true and comes across as just a tad bit sanctimonious and ill-informed.

[Edited on 4-21-2012 by LaPazGringo]

Skeet/Loreto - 4-21-2012 at 11:47 AM

Here is Skeet:

The fishin in the Sea of Cortez has been real good fo many years and will Never, Ever be Ruined. It is Impossible!

There will be ups and downs and movement of fish in and out which will cause some people to talk and beleive that the fish are gone. But! they leave and sometimes are gone for several years, they are overtaken, like the Sierra but start coming back.

There are many reasons for the "Reporting that Fishing is No Good' One of those are the SportFisherman who are not catching as many fish as they have in the Past.
Those that depend on the FishFinders and not their own eyes and Ers do not catch fish in the Same Spot, so they report No fish.
I can take my old Feeble Self to many,many spots from Mulege South to La Paz and catch all the Fish I want and Kinds, depending of Course on the Water, The Bait, The Wind, the Temp ot the Water and all of the other factors.

The Hollaring that the "Sea of Cortez is Ruined" is just another of the Young Generation Spouting off as they did about "Global Warming: and other things.

But Do not let us give up on this bunch of "Facts Massagers" let us try to keep them from smoking so much DOPE, Having Public Sex, and begging for Donations and Handouts. They are in my Paryers each Nite.

Skeet

LaPazGringo - 4-21-2012 at 11:57 AM

...and someone said 8 trawlers is killing the fishery. What a joke.

Cypress - 4-21-2012 at 12:09 PM

It's not a joke. Eight trawlers muliplied by 20. They come and go.

Skeet/Loreto - 4-21-2012 at 12:28 PM

Cypress:
Do you not realize that the Trawlers come in when the Fish are Heavy, catch a bunch and leave.

When the Fish come back in large numbers here comes the Trawlers!

Wonder why there has been reported so many large Fish being caught this year??

Wonder why Pompano and Bill Erhart and others are reporting with Photos of the fish they are catching.??

Wonder why so many Sharks around Isla Dlefonso this year?

Just think of the wide area of the ocean that is not fished. No the fishing will come and go .

Skeet

Cypress - 4-21-2012 at 12:36 PM

Skeet/Loreto, Wonder? What? Photo's of what? Little Pinto bass? Show me some pics of recent catches of mature grouper and pargo. Wide area's of the Ocean that are not fished? That's because there's nothing there to fish for. The fishing will come and go? For the most part, in many areas of the Sea of Cortez it's already gone.

willardguy - 4-21-2012 at 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Skeet/Loreto, Wonder? What? Photo's of what? Little Pinto bass? Show me some pics of recent catches of mature grouper and pargo. Wide area's of the Ocean that are not fished? That's because there's nothing there to fish for. The fishing will come and go? For the most part, in many areas of the Sea of Cortez it's already gone.

well there not all gone. the grouper I got over easter went 112lb and in january hung one half its size. both at cactus point straight out from rancho grande

LaPazGringo - 4-21-2012 at 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by willardguy

Quote:

well there not all gone. the grouper I got over easter went 112lb and in january hung one half its size. both at cactus point straight out from rancho grande

Don't tell anywhere where they were, Willard. Those might be the last grouper left in the Sea of Cortez. Maybe even the world! :rolleyes:

rts551 - 4-21-2012 at 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by willardguy

Quote:

well there not all gone. the grouper I got over easter went 112lb and in january hung one half its size. both at cactus point straight out from rancho grande

Glad someone caught A fish

willardguy - 4-21-2012 at 01:01 PM

just let me say this lapazgringo, god we miss george! :lol:

LaPazGringo - 4-21-2012 at 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551

Quote:

Originally posted by willardguy

Quote:

well there not all gone. the grouper I got over easter went 112lb and in january hung one half its size. both at cactus point straight out from rancho grande

Glad someone caught A fish

I think it's not the fish. It's the fisherman. Caught our limit of yellowtail in 2 hrs at Suenos last week. What are you doing wrong? If you need a recommendation for a guide or something, just let me know!

LaPazGringo - 4-21-2012 at 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by willardguy
just let me say this lapazgringo, god we miss george! :lol:

That video will shut the mouth of any "self-righteous environmentalists; these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren't enough bicycle paths." :spingrin:

Cypress - 4-21-2012 at 01:11 PM

willardguy, The Sea of Cortez is 60,000+ square miles of water. Glad to know you caught a couple of big fish there.

LaPazGringo - 4-21-2012 at 01:19 PM

I'm really starting to think you guys are serious. Just wow.

Skeet/Loreto - 4-21-2012 at 01:38 PM

Cypress"

Are you just a Diver or have you ever fished the Sea of Cortez!!\

I have done both, from Cabo Pulmo in the South to above Mulege to the North.

There have been many changes in the Past 40 years. One of the biggest changes I was concerned about was the large amount of Squid taken in the past 10 years.

I would hope that some of the FActs Massagers would take better care of their Children, It would be a better World!!

Skeet

Cypress - 4-21-2012 at 01:47 PM

Skeet/Loreto, I'm a diver and have fished in the Sea of Cortez. No bigee. I've returned to the fishing areas I grew up in. Can't beat the Northern Gulf of Mexico and the marsh country. No gill nets. Purse nets, yep, they catch pogies with 'em. Got seasons, limits etc. Plenty of fish. :biggrin:

The Sea of Cortez has potential, but it's on a downhill slide.

Cypress - 4-21-2012 at 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by whistler
The inshore species are hit by the small panga gill netters not the trawlers or seiners.

Yep!!

ligui - 4-21-2012 at 02:04 PM

Thanks for your Facts... Guys now i will believe everything you say . :yes:

About the seas being full of fish and lots of squid . Everyone eat up. :bounce:

Skeet/Loreto - 4-21-2012 at 03:45 PM

Liqui:
I have fond memories of fishing Ensenada Balnca. Standing in knee deep wter casting and catching 20 Lb Dorado with Tio Don O'Neil;

Those days are gone as there are so many people, Boats etc, in close as well as the Sierra were takin and are slow at coming back.
Again look at the fish just two good fisherman have caught in the past couple of years. Pomp and Bill are good fisherman and know the water. They agree that fishing is on a decline in some areas but also have knowledge of How to fish and where to find them.

We all need to think about our Grandchildren, Not trying to save all the fish< but teaching them Discil\pline, Morals, Kindness, Caring, Charity etc.

chuckie - 4-21-2012 at 04:04 PM

I'm almost sorry I started this thread...Once again too many experts...According to locals ,Co-op guys, the seiners are not illegal as long as they are targeting sardines etc. They apparently may go where they wish as long as the season is open....Ditto for the gill netters...as to the fishing disappearing, it may not be as good as it once was, but its still damn good....And, in point of fact, what is as good as we remember it, or would like to?.....We do have lots of yellowtail, some people are catching them, some arent...nothing has changed in that respect....Yesterday we saw some Marlin, Tuna are being weighed in at 100 lbs plus,here and there.....I wonder how many of the experts commenting were on the water this past week...AND for some of us it aint he pounds caught that matters...

norte - 4-29-2012 at 04:38 PM

Looks like these guys are doing just fine.... Maybe its the person fishing!
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=59789&pag...

ligui - 4-30-2012 at 06:03 AM

Skeet , i think teaching Discil/pline , morals , kindness , caring , charity ,etc . to adults might be a start for saving something for your grandchildren to enjoy .

Like fishing from the shore of ensenada blanca and catching something like a 20 lb dorado . That would be nice to share with them . No t everyone has the time ,the skills, and all the gear that pomp and bill have to look for fish . I'm pretty sure they also wish that there was alittle less comm. fishing done in their front yard .

Norte , sportfishing is alot dif from trawlers , bet you'd not be to happy to see a trawler's net full of dorado .

:yes:

Skeet/Loreto - 4-30-2012 at 08:29 AM

"Saving something for your Grandchildren to enjoy"" ????

This Phase has been used over and over on this Board. I think it would be better to Teach the Grandchildren to make their own Decesions at the time they are Adults,which is part of the neglect of the :Blame Generation; as well as the "Cheating of the same Generation always shouting "The Sky is Falling" just to get someone to send them money!!

Take your Grandchildren on a Bicycle ride through Troloume Meadow up in Yosemite, that will give them something to see
Today"

I have seen Large Fishing Vessels filled with Dorado as well as Two Japanese
Boats sucking up the Fish with a 5 Foot Vacum Pipe.

The main reason we will never see the Cortez Ruined is that it has an Entry and Exit, that the fish and Sharks go in and out as well as the Squid.

I just do not like the Approach many of the Blame Generation make at trying to control the future with Cheating and Lies about the False demise of the Sea of Cortez.

Skeet

Pescador - 5-1-2012 at 08:43 AM

I have avoided "getting in to the frey" on this topic but some clearing up is probably in order.

First, I totally understand the mindset of La Paz Gringo and Skeet. Because I tend to see the world through a Conservative Lens since I was a businessman most of my life, I understand the reluctance of people to accept the notion that the Sea of Cortez is a Dead Zone. That makes as much sense as accepting the shaky notions of Global Warming, and other trends used by the liberal groups as justification for laws or fundraising. Does not take long to see through a Grean Peace add or a PETA add for donations and understand that they do not mind twisting the truth to justify their existence.

But I have spent most of my adult life fishing and diving the Sea of Cortez, first in the Guaymas / San Carlos area where my parents had a house and then the Baja side during my traveling years, and finally the Baja side when I retired. I have spent the last 4 years fishing with a friend who is a commercial fisherman and giving my catch to him so that he can provide for his family. That has put me on the ocean 5 and 6 days a week for the last 4 or 5 years so I do have some idea as to what is going on in a very specific area of Santa Rosalia. So, my perceptions are not clouded by one big school of fish showing up for a week or so, but instead are influenced by a longer range perception of what happens when you are out on the sea day after day, season after season.

Yellowtail, which are my main focus, are much lower in numbers even though there are times of the year when the populations look fairly large. The biggest detriment that I have seen is what I refer to as "Wrap Netting" which is what happens when they chase baitfish close to the shore in the spring time. These fish are loading up on protein and are full of eggs in the "pre-spawn" period. In years past these fish could only be netted with Gill Nets if they were found in Sandy areas but the netters have learned to wrap them at a very high speed even if they are in the rocks, and then put divers over the side to move the nets over the rocks and move the fish to the center. Where a good fisherman with a line and a hook might catch 1-1/2 ton in a years time, these guys make consistent hauls of 15-20 tons of fish in one or two wrappings. The issue is also compounded by the fact that they are killing spawners that are not very active biters on the traditional hook and line set. So, while we used to get school after school of yellowtail all winter in our area, now we might go 2 or three months with no significant schools of yellowtail showing up. This year the last strong school of fish showed up on December 10, and nothing significant following that until April. When a person is fishing with hook and line they do not knock out an entire school of fish but selectively harvest a few from each school whereas the nets can knock out an entire school. So the final picture is, there are still some massive schools of yellowtail showing in the Sea of Cortez, but they are a small portion of what they were even as far back as 5 years ago. (There is some hope that the ban on this type of netting is helping the area around La Paz which does seem to have a growing population at this point).

Since the price for basses, groupers, and the like are at least 4 to 5 times as high as Yellowtail, the pressure on all sides has had a serious effect on the populations. Gold Spotted Bass, Pompano's favorite, are caught very deep and are not pursued as strongly as Baqueta, Grouper, and Cabrilla, but are showing some decline but the market price for them is the same as Yellowtail so they are pretty much a secondary goal of the market fisherman. All one has to do is get beyond the range of the average panguero to discover how many Grouper and Cabrilla can be found in a given area that is not subject to the fishing pressure.

Spotted Bay Bass, Sierra, Corvina, and the inshore species are doing pretty well as they do not get the pressure of the other species. Again, they bring about half the price of yellowtail, so they get pretty much overlooked by the commercial fishermen.

Squid, which is one of the mainstays of the commercial fisherman in our area have been noticeably absent for the last 3-4 years, but the scientists who study them are conviced that this is related to the lack of upwelling in our area and the major populations have moved north into the Midriff Islands area. What has happened in our area with the loss of squid, is that the attention of the fishermen have moved to new areas in order to make a living. They now harvest clams, octopus, scallops, lobster, and anything else that has a market value. This has certainly had an effect on the areas where I was able to get a couple of clams for dinner or an octopus, and the scallop beds have turned into a graveyard of white and opened shells.

The original start of this topic was with the seiners who can overwork an area like we experienced in the Guaymas area in the late 70's, but I do not really see that happening. Mostly this is due to the market forces and as long as the market for sardines and mackerel is so low, there probably won't be a big upswing in the seiner haul. These are mostly overage boats who are pretty much a dying breed so while they do harvest a lot of fish, I doubt that they are having much of an overall impact. On the Pacific side where they are netting for the Bluefin Tuna Pens of Ensenada the effect is much more serious, but on our side I just don't see that much impact.

We are just starting to understand some of the factors of the cycle of life that occurs in the Sea of Cortez and a lot of influence can be attributed to the El Nino and La Nina effects of water temp and currents. It is unfortunate that there is no actual scientific information being generated, but there is a market force that is at work. When fishing for one species gets really bad, the fishermen move on to another species. I too see a great abundance of life but I also see the warning signs of other problems.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-1-2012 at 12:49 PM

Pescador! The Best words about the fish in the Sea of Cortez that I have seen on this Board.

I too, as you know fished for over 30 years in the same area as you. Sometimes commercial fishing with Pappa Murillo, Enrique, Chico, and Alvaro. I studied the Fish, their movements, the water, the Wind and the Birds. I dove in several places and observed the movement of the fish, Sharks, Whales. What you spoke of I observed and agree.

If we are to survive as a nation we must some how make a "Control" of what the populations are eating and will eat in the future. Fish, Beef, Grain etc.

Skeet

Cypress - 5-1-2012 at 12:57 PM

Pescador, Thanks for the insights. And Skeet/Loreto agrees!

Hard for anyone to argue with such a reasonable assessment of the fisheries. :bounce:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-1-2012 at 01:40 PM

Cypress:
If you look around you can get some very good information on the Salmon Industry and what happened before and after Control was put in place off of Washington and Oregon Coast, including the "Giving away of 50% of theh to the Indians.

We still have Salmon
We still have Shrimp.
We do not have much Totouva{San Felipe}
We have Lots of Squid
We have Tons andTons of Tilapia
The Sierra are coming Back after being overtaken on the East Coast of The Sea Of Cortez.

Could it be that the "Sky is falling bunch" have run out of Donated Money???

Skeet/Loreto

DENNIS - 5-1-2012 at 01:46 PM

Wassamatta Skeet....won't anyone talk to you over in OT? Stay over here. It's a better class of people.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-1-2012 at 01:53 PM

You are so right Dennis.
Just thought I would try one more time to get a Good political Thread Going but looks as if I was mistaken.

skeet/Loreto

mcfez - 5-1-2012 at 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Wassamatta Skeet....won't anyone talk to you over in OT? Stay over here. It's a better class of people.

Cypress - 5-1-2012 at 02:23 PM

Skeet/Loreto, The buffalo are making a big comeback also. :biggrin:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-1-2012 at 02:37 PM

Cypress" How right you are!! I am very close to the ones released at the Caprock Canyons. You know that Ted Turner has a lot ot do with helping with the Buffalo

Also Feral Hogs are running Wild in parts of Texas. They are having to have massive Hunts to get rid of some of them, Have you ever seen what damage they can do to a Field??Skeet/Loreto.

Cypress - 5-1-2012 at 03:00 PM

Skeet/Loreto, I hunted feral hogs down in those deep south swamps. Caught, killed and sold 'em way back in the 60's. Had my own mark(notches cut in there ears). Hunted 'em with first-class hog dogs. Learned how to stitch-up some nasty cuts. Now there's a new breed of hogs from wild Russian stock. Bad critters.

[Edited on 5/1/2012 by Cypress]

Skeet/Loreto - 5-1-2012 at 04:37 PM

You know they have now approved hunting for those dudes with helicopters,

Most everybody has a staning approval to shoot them suckers if sighted.

Why can't someone start produce them for commercial use and sell them to the Chinese for Food??