BajaNomad

Documentary Video on the killing off of Native Americans by Europeans and Euro-Americans!

David K - 4-27-2012 at 04:28 PM

In case you think I only promote the California missions from the Spanish or Catholic point-of-view, I just watched a video hosted by Floyd Red Crow Westerman called:
EXTERMINATE THEM! America's Destruction of Indian Nations, The California Story.

Basically, it said the killing of Indians in California began with the Spanish (incorrectly said 'arrived by sea' to found the mission at San Diego) and continued with the Americans when they took over the state.

Here is the DVD front and back cover...






My neighbor was a co-producer and consultant in the making of the video. Knowing that I am working on the mission history, she shared the video with me. I told her I would share with you all... If anyone wants to get the DVD, I will get the ordering details for you.

* EDITED to be more PC for the sensitive Nomads, who should still watch the movie...

[Edited on 5-1-2012 by David K]

rts551 - 4-27-2012 at 04:46 PM

Jesus christ. where in the hll does it ever say "white Man"? Never mind. it would never sink in your numb skull...
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
In case you think I only promote the California missions from the Spanish or Catholic point-of-view, I just watched a video hosted by Floyd Red Crow Westerman called:
EXTERMINATE THEM! America's Destruction of Indian Nations, The California Story.

Basically, it said the killing of Indians in California began with the Spanish (incorrectly said 'arrived by sea' to found the mission at San Diego) and continued with the Americans when they took over the state.

Here is the DVD front and back cover...






My neighbor was a co-producer and consultant in the making of the video. Knowing that I am working on the mission history, she shared the video with me. I told her I would share with you all... If anyone wants to get the DVD, I will get the ordering details for you.

Barry A. - 4-27-2012 at 04:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Jesus christ. where in the hll does it ever say "white Man"? Never mind. it would never sink in your numb skull...


Quote:
Originally posted by David K
In case you think I only promote the California missions from the Spanish or Catholic point-of-view, I just watched a video hosted by Floyd Red Crow Westerman called:
EXTERMINATE THEM! America's Destruction of Indian Nations, The California Story.

Basically, it said the killing of Indians in California began with the Spanish (incorrectly said 'arrived by sea' to found the mission at San Diego) and continued with the Americans when they took over the state.

Here is the DVD front and back cover...






My neighbor was a co-producer and consultant in the making of the video. Knowing that I am working on the mission history, she shared the video with me. I told her I would share with you all... If anyone wants to get the DVD, I will get the ordering details for you.




Nor mine, 551. What in the world are you talking about?

Barry

woody with a view - 4-27-2012 at 04:57 PM

roger hedgec-ck said yesterday that if you want to know what it will be like when obamacare is implemented just look at the Native Americans (the ones without casinos) and their plight. from day one they were given the worst land, some sugar, corn, alcohol and other crap. to this day they are no better off than 100 years ago.

guess which of us Americans have the lowest lifespan? the least access to healthcare? you'd be right if you follow my gist.

the Native Americans have had govt giving them everything for over a hundred years and their prospects for "change we can believe in" are the absolute worst in this country!

just something to think about.....

rts551 - 4-27-2012 at 05:28 PM

Barry then you are as bad as he is. Th use of a phrase with "white man Killing off indians" in this context is incendiary. Why do you or David have to use the term White in this context at aall....unless of course your a proponent of "white power"
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Jesus christ. where in the hll does it ever say "white Man"? Never mind. it would never sink in your numb skull...


Quote:
Originally posted by David K
In case you think I only promote the California missions from the Spanish or Catholic point-of-view, I just watched a video hosted by Floyd Red Crow Westerman called:
EXTERMINATE THEM! America's Destruction of Indian Nations, The California Story.

Basically, it said the killing of Indians in California began with the Spanish (incorrectly said 'arrived by sea' to found the mission at San Diego) and continued with the Americans when they took over the state.

Here is the DVD front and back cover...






My neighbor was a co-producer and consultant in the making of the video. Knowing that I am working on the mission history, she shared the video with me. I told her I would share with you all... If anyone wants to get the DVD, I will get the ordering details for you.




Nor mine, 551. What in the world are you talking about?

Barry

Barry A. - 4-27-2012 at 05:47 PM

551 said, "Barry then you are as bad as he is. The use of a phrase with "white man Killing off indians" in this context is incendiary. Why do you or David have to use the term White in this context at all....unless of course your a proponent of "white power" ".

-----and I say----because it was generally white folks that mostly were involved in the killing of the Indian's, both directly and indirectly, in CA during the USA western movement, and to a lesser degree during the Spanish/Mexican Colonial times before.

As for "white power"???? What is that???

Nothing David said is "incendiary" to me------the truth is normally not "incendiary" unless you want to make it that way. Your choice.

Barry

Cypress - 4-27-2012 at 05:47 PM

Somebody killed off a lot of Indians. The Asians didn't do it, the Africans didn't do it. Let me guess?:)

rts551 - 4-27-2012 at 05:55 PM

Cut the BS. You used that title for your own self gratification.

The author had a lot more class than you, I read the back.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Ralph, seriously?

MY POST, I WATCHED IT... BUY IT YOURSELF and SEE/ HEAR... It is about the (now read this, it IS in on the cover) EXTERMINATION of the Indians... That means to KILL THEM ALL... Read the back cover...

Gee wiz, there is NO pleasing you libs... I get blamed for saying the missionaries built the missions, and the Indians came to the missions for food and salvation... now I get blamed when I say they (the white missionaries/ soldiers/ settlers) were killing them (what your side likes to believe is all that came of Europeans in the Western Hemisphere.

You guys are really something... Just when I thought promoting YOUR SIDE would be welcomed! Well, shame on me!

Cypress - 4-27-2012 at 06:22 PM

rts551, What's your point?

Ateo - 4-27-2012 at 06:44 PM

I predict this being a 9 page thread....all I can say is what was done to the Native Americans was vile, disastrous to the culture, and still guides the plight of many Native Americans....


Seems it's human nature to destroy other creeds, colors, religions, ethnicities....

Probably dates back to Homosapiens destroying Neanderthals.....That's just a theory though.

Barry A. - 4-27-2012 at 08:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ateo
I predict this being a 9 page thread....all I can say is what was done to the Native Americans was vile, disastrous to the culture, and still guides the plight of many Native Americans....


Seems it's human nature to destroy other creeds, colors, religions, ethnicities....

Probably dates back to Homosapiens destroying Neanderthals.....That's just a theory though.


Yes, I agree.

In the case of the American West it was a little more complicated than "destroy" tho, for destructions sake. The settlers had their reasons, tho they were incredibly greedy & evil, for eliminating the indigenous peoples who "stood in their way". It was called Manifest Destiny, and woe the people that tried to resist it, and most "whites" believed in it. Mankind (all mankind) has a history of doing this sort of thing, unfortunately, which is what you are saying, I believe.

I still don't understand what RTs 555 (Ralph?) is upset about in this thread.

Barry

gnukid - 4-27-2012 at 08:10 PM

http://youtu.be/fTn8jh50Lq8



[Edited on 4-28-2012 by gnukid]

Ken Cooke - 4-27-2012 at 10:52 PM

David - I felt your post The Blacks of Mexico was stated in taste where you provided a thread on Mexicans of African origin here on BN. But, your usage of, 'White Man' in your title appears ignorant and diminishes the significance of the work by Westerman.

I suspect that the DVD is not a good one by your use of commentary in the title of this thread, so why not include a short, subjective review instead?

About the author

vgabndo - 4-28-2012 at 12:01 AM

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Floyd Red Crow Westerman, an American Indian activist, actor and folk singer who appeared in "Dances with Wolves" and performed with Willie Nelson and other musicians, has died at age 71.

Westerman, who lived in Marina del Rey, died Thursday morning at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center from complications of leukemia, said his son, Richard Tall Bear Westerman.

The actor-musician appeared in dozens of movies and television shows, including recurring roles as Uncle Ray Firewalker on "Walker, Texas Ranger" and George Littlefox on "Dharma & Greg."

A well respected musician, he worked with Nelson, Bonnie Raitt, Harry Belafonte, Jackson Browne and others.

"He always said he was a musician first and he just acted for the money," his son said Friday.

Westerman continued to act until only a few months ago, completing work on the forthcoming Kevin Costner film "Swing Vote" in September.

Perhaps his most memorable movie role was in Costner's 1990 Western epic, "Dances with Wolves." He played the Sioux leader Ten Bears, who befriends Costner's character.

Westerman was also well known as an activist for environmental causes, the rights of American Indians and other indigenous people.

His debut album, released in 1970, was titled "Custer Died For Your Sins." Last year he released "A Tribute to Johnny Cash" to positive reviews.

In the 1990s, Westerman toured the world with Sting to raise money to preserve rainforests.

"He was really, really politically conscious," his son said. "He said the Iraq war is just another land grab, like they did with Oklahoma and the Midwest in America. Back then it was about land and gold and now it was about oil."

Westerman was born on Aug. 17, 1936, on the Sisseton-Wahpeton Dakota Sioux reservation in South Dakota.

As a youngster, he left the reservation to attend a government boarding school some 80 miles away. In keeping with policies at the time, the school frowned on his native culture.

"They cut his hair and they wouldn't allow him to speak the language," his son said. "He was a survivor of everything that the government has tried to do to native Americans."

Westerman graduated from a reservation high school, spent two years in the Marines and went on to earn a degree in secondary education from Northern State College in South Dakota.

He made his movie debut in 1989's "Renegades," playing the father of Lou Diamond Phillips' character. He was a shaman in Oliver Stone's 1991 movie "The Doors."

In addition to his son, Westerman is survived by his wife, Rosie, and daughters Jennifer Westerman of Arizona, Chante Westerman of Washington state, Nicky Jackson of Minneapolis and Chenoa Westerman of South Dakota.

Copyright © 2007 The Associated Press

Cypress - 4-28-2012 at 06:57 AM

RIP

mtgoat666 - 4-28-2012 at 07:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
roger hedgec-ck said yesterday that if you want to know what it will be like when obamacare is implemented just look at the Native Americans (the ones without casinos) and their plight. from day one they were given the worst land, some sugar, corn, alcohol and other crap. to this day they are no better off than 100 years ago.

guess which of us Americans have the lowest lifespan? the least access to healthcare? you'd be right if you follow my gist.

the Native Americans have had govt giving them everything for over a hundred years and their prospects for "change we can believe in" are the absolute worst in this country!

just something to think about.....


woody: you and dk are 2 peas in a pod.

woody with a view - 4-28-2012 at 07:47 AM

thanks goat! i think i'm gonna puke....

:lol::lol::lol::barf::lol::lol::lol:

DianaT - 4-28-2012 at 08:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
roger hedgec-ck said yesterday that if you want to know what it will be like when obamacare is implemented just look at the Native Americans (the ones without casinos) and their plight. from day one they were given the worst land, some sugar, corn, alcohol and other crap. to this day they are no better off than 100 years ago.

guess which of us Americans have the lowest lifespan? the least access to healthcare? you'd be right if you follow my gist.

the Native Americans have had govt giving them everything for over a hundred years and their prospects for "change we can believe in" are the absolute worst in this country!

just something to think about.....


Woody,
Hedgec-ck was doing his Rush sound a like. He is twisting an apples and oranges comparison to try and scare the puke out of you. That stretch was one of the craziest I have heard lately --- I do believe he outdid Rush.

wessongroup - 4-28-2012 at 08:12 AM

Bet you might get a different take from Russell Means... just saying..

DianaT - 4-28-2012 at 08:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
David - I felt your post The Blacks of Mexico was stated in taste where you provided a thread on Mexicans of African origin here on BN. But, your usage of, 'White Man' in your title appears ignorant and diminishes the significance of the work by Westerman.

.....


:yes:

American Indians..

EnsenadaDr - 4-28-2012 at 08:26 AM

I have to disagree on this one. My good friend is an Indian advocate and she regularly visits her good friend that works as a nurse at an indian reservation health care center ON the reservation (so why someone is saying they have no access to health care is beyond me_..what other racial group in the US has the right to exclude taxation on their property (not sure how much taxation is excluded on Indian reservations myself)? She says that the that particular band of Indians have brand new homes, new cars, and get a revenue per capita from the casinos of $5000 a month, plus access to public healthcare. Heck, if they can't get good government healthcare, they can pay for private healthcare on that income. She says that most of them don't have to work on that income, so they spend alot of time drinking and eating without exercising. Wish I had been born an American Indian.
Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
roger hedgec-ck said yesterday that if you want to know what it will be like when obamacare is implemented just look at the Native Americans (the ones without casinos) and their plight. from day one they were given the worst land, some sugar, corn, alcohol and other crap. to this day they are no better off than 100 years ago.

guess which of us Americans have the lowest lifespan? the least access to healthcare? you'd be right if you follow my gist.

the Native Americans have had govt giving them everything for over a hundred years and their prospects for "change we can believe in" are the absolute worst in this country!

just something to think about.....

Skipjack Joe - 4-28-2012 at 08:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.

In the case of the American West it was a little more complicated than "destroy" tho, for destructions sake. The settlers had their reasons, tho they were incredibly greedy & evil, for eliminating the indigenous peoples who "stood in their way". It was called Manifest Destiny, and woe the people that tried to resist it, and most "whites" believed in it. Mankind (all mankind) has a history of doing this sort of thing, unfortunately, which is what you are saying, I believe.


I doubt that individual settlers knew anything about a Manifest Destiny. I doubt that Daniel Boone knew anything about it.

I just think that americans just thought of it as unsettled land. The fact that a few subhuman aborigines occupied it was simply a nuisance. People simply moved onto land that was available.

Why would this be surprising. No country in europe would survive without a standing army. Nobody was going to respect your right to live on your land because it's 'the right thing to do'. Adding land to your territory made you more powerful. Heck, I'm still peeed at what the Ottoman Empire did to the Balkans.

Nothing has changed. Let's pretend that we just now discovered North America with these natives. What would be the outcome. I believe the takeover again would take place. Just not so brutally. The same deals would be made with an innocent mind.

I wouldn't even call the process greedy and evil. We are wired to take care of ourselves.

[Edited on 4-28-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

tripledigitken - 4-28-2012 at 08:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I have to disagree on this one. My good friend is an Indian advocate and she regularly visits her good friend that works as a nurse at an indian reservation health care center ON the reservation (so why someone is saying they have no access to health care is beyond me_..what other racial group in the US has the right to exclude taxation on their property (not sure how much taxation is excluded on Indian reservations myself)? She says that the that particular band of Indians have brand new homes, new cars, and get a revenue per capita from the casinos of $5000 a month, plus access to public healthcare. Heck, if they can't get good government healthcare, they can pay for private healthcare on that income. She says that most of them don't have to work on that income, so they spend alot of time drinking and eating without exercising. Wish I had been born an American Indian.
Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
roger hedgec-ck said yesterday that if you want to know what it will be like when obamacare is implemented just look at the Native Americans (the ones without casinos) and their plight. from day one they were given the worst land, some sugar, corn, alcohol and other crap. to this day they are no better off than 100 years ago.

guess which of us Americans have the lowest lifespan? the least access to healthcare? you'd be right if you follow my gist.

the Native Americans have had govt giving them everything for over a hundred years and their prospects for "change we can believe in" are the absolute worst in this country!

just something to think about.....


Woody was specifically referring to Indian Reservations without casinos, a totally different situation from what you describe.

Oddjob - 4-28-2012 at 09:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I have to disagree on this one. My good friend is an Indian advocate and she regularly visits her good friend that works as a nurse at an indian reservation health care center ON the reservation (so why someone is saying they have no access to health care is beyond me_..what other racial group in the US has the right to exclude taxation on their property (not sure how much taxation is excluded on Indian reservations myself)? She says that the that particular band of Indians have brand new homes, new cars, and get a revenue per capita from the casinos of $5000 a month, plus access to public healthcare. Heck, if they can't get good government healthcare, they can pay for private healthcare on that income. She says that most of them don't have to work on that income, so they spend alot of time drinking and eating without exercising. Wish I had been born an American Indian.
Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
roger hedgec-ck said yesterday that if you want to know what it will be like when obamacare is implemented just look at the Native Americans (the ones without casinos) and their plight. from day one they were given the worst land, some sugar, corn, alcohol and other crap. to this day they are no better off than 100 years ago.

guess which of us Americans have the lowest lifespan? the least access to healthcare? you'd be right if you follow my gist.

the Native Americans have had govt giving them everything for over a hundred years and their prospects for "change we can believe in" are the absolute worst in this country!

just something to think about.....




So Dr. are you saying that since your friend visits a reservation with a casino and onsite government healthcare that all Native Americans enjoy a life free of poverty? Perhaps you should visit a Navajo reservation in Northern Arizona or the Oglala Sioux Pine Ridge Indian Reservation and then make your comments. I doubt that you would wish to have been born an American Indian after seeing how they live in the reservations that don't have casinos or other sources of income.

shari - 4-28-2012 at 09:10 AM

thank you DK for bringing this important work to light...and gnukid for the link. It is a very concise, honest, easy to understand history of the americas that should be required viewing in all schools....finally the true history is being told and the atrocities are being acknowledges so healing can begin.

Perry...gracias for the sad news of Floyd Red Crow's passing on...tragic...so young. He made his people proud...my respects...may you soar with the eagles.

Barry A. - 4-28-2012 at 09:21 AM

Just for the record-----------Floyd Red Clowd was born in Aug of 1936 making him 75, not 71 if I read the article right.

RIP Floyd Red Clowd.

I totally agree with Shari on this.

Barry

norte - 4-28-2012 at 09:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Just for the record-----------Floyd Red Clowd was born in Aug of 1936 making him 75, not 71 if I read the article right.

RIP Floyd Red Clowd.

I totally agree with Shari on this.

Barry


Check the facts folks. He died dec 13, 2007.

The Question remains..

EnsenadaDr - 4-28-2012 at 09:24 AM

By the way, Odd Job, I did visit a Navajo reservation in Taos, New Mexico and the question remains, why don't the Indians have casinos in New Mexico so they can raise money as well, Taos is quite a popular resort and could bring in alot of revenue.
Quote:
Originally posted by Oddjob
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I have to disagree on this one. My good friend is an Indian advocate and she regularly visits her good friend that works as a nurse at an indian reservation health care center ON the reservation (so why someone is saying they have no access to health care is beyond me_..what other racial group in the US has the right to exclude taxation on their property (not sure how much taxation is excluded on Indian reservations myself)? She says that the that particular band of Indians have brand new homes, new cars, and get a revenue per capita from the casinos of $5000 a month, plus access to public healthcare. Heck, if they can't get good government healthcare, they can pay for private healthcare on that income. She says that most of them don't have to work on that income, so they spend alot of time drinking and eating without exercising. Wish I had been born an American Indian.
Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
roger hedgec-ck said yesterday that if you want to know what it will be like when obamacare is implemented just look at the Native Americans (the ones without casinos) and their plight. from day one they were given the worst land, some sugar, corn, alcohol and other crap. to this day they are no better off than 100 years ago.

guess which of us Americans have the lowest lifespan? the least access to healthcare? you'd be right if you follow my gist.

the Native Americans have had govt giving them everything for over a hundred years and their prospects for "change we can believe in" are the absolute worst in this country!

just something to think about.....




So Dr. are you saying that since your friend visits a reservation with a casino and onsite government healthcare that all Native Americans enjoy a life free of poverty? Perhaps you should visit a Navajo reservation in Northern Arizona or the Oglala Sioux Pine Ridge Indian Reservation and then make your comments. I doubt that you would wish to have been born an American Indian after seeing how they live in the reservations that don't have casinos or other sources of income.

Barry A. - 4-28-2012 at 09:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by norte
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Just for the record-----------Floyd Red Clowd was born in Aug of 1936 making him 75, not 71 if I read the article right.

RIP Floyd Red Clowd.

I totally agree with Shari on this.

Barry


Check the facts folks. He died dec 13, 2007.


Ah HA :light: You are correct, "norte"-------I stand corrected (I missed the date at the bottom of the article)

Thanks for that.

Barry

redmesa - 4-28-2012 at 09:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ateo
I predict this being a 9 page thread....all I can say is what was done to the Native Americans was vile, disastrous to the culture, and still guides the plight of many Native Americans....


Seems it's human nature to destroy other creeds, colors, religions, ethnicities....

Probably dates back to Homosapiens destroying Neanderthals.....That's just a theory though.


I think the word HOMO SAPIEN (WISE MAN) given to our genus should be changed to HOMO CAUDEX ( STUPID MAN). We deiinitely are not "sapien" then or now.

gnukid - 4-28-2012 at 09:33 AM

When I was young, I would walk and look for indigenous people's artifacts, I often found them.

In Baja I often look across the vista and imagine where indigenous people might have been and what they did. My neighbors and I share in discussion of the indigenous people's, we have trained ourselves to look for signs of camps, tools etc... Following the thread written by Tripper, we went to a location and scanned for evidence, we found many tools and arrowheads.

The point is we always find artifacts, yet we are told there were so few indigenous people. But the artifacts are everywhere? Something tells me there many more indigenous people than we are led to believe.

Iflyfish - 4-28-2012 at 09:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
http://youtu.be/fTn8jh50Lq8



[Edited on 4-28-2012 by gnukid]


Thanks Gnu for posting this.

The discussion reminds me of one I watched on TV upon the release of the film "Last Temptation of Christ" a film on the human/divine nature of Christ. This was a film done my Martin Scorsese, who was a Jesuit Priest at one time. Anyway a panel of clergy are being interviewed, about five of them, the last one, an Episcopalian, is asked for his view on the film. He responded "It sounds like I have seen a different film than my fellow clergy have seen. I wonder if we could see a show of hands of how many of you have actually seen this film?" Dead silence and a pan of the dais showed no hands raised. Then followed an excoriation of the film and protestations that they would not ever see this blasphemous film.

Thanks for posting the link.

My belief is that human beings are genocidal creatures and even a cursory reading of history confirms this conclusion. The Haida people slaved all the way from the Queen Charlotte's to San Francisco Bay, there is evidence of cannibalism among the Anastasie, and more recently the genocide documented in this film. In our life time there was N-zi Germany, Uganda, The Sudan, Bosnia/Hersogovina, Cambodia etc. These facts do not negate in any way discount the horrific destruction of so many native cultures in the New World but only serve to broaden the context of our understanding of human nature vis a vis genocide.

Iflyfish

DianaT - 4-28-2012 at 09:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
By the way, Odd Job, I did visit a Navajo reservation in Taos, New Mexico and the question remains, why don't the Indians have casinos in New Mexico so they can raise money as well, Taos is quite a popular resort and could bring in alot of revenue.


There is a Navajo Nation in Taos???? Maybe there are some small groups??? A couple of the pueblos in the Santa Fe area do have casinos now. Each pueblo is separate and there are a few different language groups.

Obviously, casinos require people so casinos would not work for the more remote reservations.

IFLYFISH --- I really don't want to believe in your genocide theory as a part of human nature, but it is difficult to dispute.

Edited to get out of the quote box!



[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]

David K - 4-28-2012 at 09:59 AM

Seeing that this video is on You Tube and free for the viewing, I guess there is no interest in purchasing it from the co-producer, my neighbor?

Despite what some of you think my motives are, they are to present history as best as we know it to be, and while the missionaries admitted to punishing runaways and other criminals with the lash, they did record their activities so we can read of it today. The native Californians left no written record of their life or history, other than the cave art from some unknown race (a race of 'giants' are what the Cochimí told the padres).

This video, while it is condeming the actions of Europeans and European-Americans (is that better than saying 'white men'?), is a rare view or text presented by someone on the Native American's behalf. I thought it would be refreshing to present the Indian's side of the California story...

Well, no matter what I post here, there is no pleasing some of you. The funny thing is if someone else posted this with very same title, they would be made a hero for 'giving it to the evil white man'! :lol:

So, as I have said so often, take from Nomad what you can enjoy or use, add your own details, but don't tarnish a thread because you have a political issue with the messenger... :rolleyes:

Bye Bye

Indians in Taos

EnsenadaDr - 4-28-2012 at 10:02 AM

Diana,
This was a long time ago...and so I refreshed my memory and it could have been the band of Pueblo Indians http://www.indianpueblo.org/19pueblos/taos.html
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
By the way, Odd Job, I did visit a Navajo reservation in Taos, New Mexico and the question remains, why don't the Indians have casinos in New Mexico so they can raise money as well, Taos is quite a popular resort and could bring in alot of revenue.


There is a Navajo Nation in Taos???? Maybe there are some small groups??? A couple of the pueblos in the Santa Fe area do have casinos now. Each pueblo is separate and there are a few different language groups.

Obviously, casinos require people so casinos would not work for the more remote reservations.

IFLYFISH --- I really don't want to believe in your genocide theory as a part of human nature, but it is difficult to dispute.

Edited to get out of the quote box!



[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]

woody with a view - 4-28-2012 at 10:02 AM

just look at the inner cities. welfare programs everywhere but no jobs. been this way all my life and only seems to be getting worse as time goes on.

a govt program isn't gonna make your life better but a job will! i grew up on welfare. Mom got herself a nursing degree and she did alright by any measure. i've been on unemployment and know guys who work just so they can qualify for 6 more months of free $... it's a life with no future, just scraping by. i've bent over backwards to keep working. let's see..... Yuma, Barstow, Ventura, 29 Palms, San Nicolas Island, San Clemente Island and after summer prolly Yuma again. all while my family is 3-5 hours away by car. i bought a 2002 brand new for work and it has 177k on it now. do the math....

it ain't no "good" life, but it's my life. and i'm glad to have it.

David K - 4-28-2012 at 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
just look at the inner cities. welfare programs everywhere but no jobs. been this way all my life and only seems to be getting worse as time goes on.

a govt program isn't gonna make your life better but a job will! i grew up on welfare. Mom got herself a nursing degree and she did alright by any measure. i've been on unemployment and know guys who work just so they can qualify for 6 more months of free $... it's a life with no future, just scraping by. i've bent over backwards to keep working. let's see..... Yuma, Barstow, Ventura, 29 Palms, San Nicolas Island, San Clemente Island and after summer prolly Yuma again. all while my family is 3-5 hours away by car. i bought a 2002 brand new for work and it has 177k on it now. do the math....

it ain't no "good" life, but it's my life. and i'm glad to have it.


Good for you Woody! Have you seen the following bumper sticker? "Irritate a Liberal: Get a Job!" (I think it was pee Off instead of Irritate, however)

watizname - 4-28-2012 at 10:13 AM

I think Joe and Flyfish are spot on. Times have changed and have brought a different set of morals with them. I think all societies of the past have at some point committed atrocities. As I understand it, the Native Americans themselves warred on each other. No way am I saying that I condone the atrocities, it is just something that happened in the past, and probably will again in the future someplace in this world. But as a "white man", I'm tired of being blamed for the sins of my fathers.

Barry A. - 4-28-2012 at 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
By the way, Odd Job, I did visit a Navajo reservation in Taos, New Mexico and the question remains, why don't the Indians have casinos in New Mexico so they can raise money as well, Taos is quite a popular resort and could bring in alot of revenue.


There is a Navajo Nation in Taos???? Maybe there are some small groups??? A couple of the pueblos in the Santa Fe area do have casinos now. Each pueblo is separate and there are a few different language groups.

Obviously, casinos require people so casinos would not work for the more remote reservations.

IFLYFISH --- I really don't want to believe in your genocide theory as a part of human nature, but it is difficult to dispute.

Edited to get out of the quote box!



[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]


I agree with IFLYFISH but don't believe that what he says is a "theory", unfortunately---------it is simply a fact, based on History as he says. Why that is I don't have a clue, but I, as he appears to, believe it.

There are reasons why the Navaho Nation in Arizona and western New Mexico, as well as the Hopi and many other "tribes" don't participate in the Casino Game, but for the life of me I can't remember why. What Diane says is true, and the remoteness is part of the story. Many of the tribes that do have very successful Casinos share the wealth with other tribes, however. Still, there are pockets of severe poverty, as has been stated above, so obviously many Native People are not sharing in the new wealth and good fortune of the others. The 'Moral Hazard' of charity and help has taken it's toll on some folks (which I submit almost always happens) and they simply have learned to rely on Govt. aid, period. The blame has to be shared by both the givers and the receivers, it seems to me, for the givers setting up this situation, and the receivers excepting it as a 'way of life'-----again Human Nature trumps all.

Barry

DianaT - 4-28-2012 at 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The native Californians left no written record of their life or history,

This video, while it is condeming the actions of Europeans and European-Americans (is that better than saying 'white men'?), is a rare view or text presented by someone on the Native American's behalf.



Written history, is not the only type of history.

Rare view? A good one, well done, but not rare. Especially since the 1960's there have been many books written from a Native American's point of view. While many of them have been written for the academic world (unfortunately many historians like to write strictly for other historians ) the history began to spill over into popular literature.
One of the most popular books was Vine Deloria's
Custer Died for Your Sins There are things in his book that have been disputed, but it was a VERY popular book and provided a different view. It did lead many to start thinking about a different point of view.

If someone is really interested in expanding their ideas about this history there are LOTS of books available from many point's of view --- and there is no ONE Native American point of view.

Curious, since you keep quoting what was written by the Jesuits, etc., have you actually studied any of their writings or are you strictly depending on how others interpreted them?

David K - 4-28-2012 at 10:20 AM

I didn't say 'written' was the only type...

Rare view... well, as far as the CALIFORNIA story (on the Indians' side) goes... and when I say California, I mean the original California...

How about presenting more Native American links to their California history? It would be appreciated...

woody with a view - 4-28-2012 at 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
just look at the inner cities. welfare programs everywhere but no jobs. been this way all my life and only seems to be getting worse as time goes on.

a govt program isn't gonna make your life better but a job will! i grew up on welfare. Mom got herself a nursing degree and she did alright by any measure. i've been on unemployment and know guys who work just so they can qualify for 6 more months of free $... it's a life with no future, just scraping by. i've bent over backwards to keep working. let's see..... Yuma, Barstow, Ventura, 29 Palms, San Nicolas Island, San Clemente Island and after summer prolly Yuma again. all while my family is 3-5 hours away by car. i bought a 2002 brand new for work and it has 177k on it now. do the math....

it ain't no "good" life, but it's my life. and i'm glad to have it.


Good for you Woody! Have you seen the following bumper sticker? "Irritate a Liberal: Get a Job!" (I think it was pee Off instead of Irritate, however)


i'm not taking sides either way. just making a point! most of my friends are Dems. i don't consider myself a Rep as i haven't attained the lofty goal of inclusion into the 1%.... until then, i just get up and go to work-unless Baja beckons. hey, what's that sound?:light:

DianaT - 4-28-2012 at 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I didn't say 'written' was the only type...

Rare view... well, as far as the CALIFORNIA story (on the Indians' side) goes... and when I say California, I mean the original California...

How about presenting more Native American links to their California history? It would be appreciated...


David, do your own research and for primary sources, try some University and Museum libraries----do you know where the original Jesuit writings are housed? If you are writing a history book, searching for the primary sources is essential; any history book is far more credible if it includes primary and well as secondary sources. And it is even more credible if the sources are from English and Spanish sources. Otherwise, it becomes more of tour guide.

Nothing wrong with tour guides, but they are not history books. They may include some simple ideas about the history of an area, but they are certainly not credible sources for learning history.

[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]

Skipjack Joe - 4-28-2012 at 10:32 AM

Just finished all 3 videos gnu has provided.

It's sad to hear the history of vigilantes and padres. This is the story of a vanquished people as told by a vanquished people.

I feel strongly though had the roles been reversed and the indians had superior firepower they would have treated us in the same way.

It's interesting how the indians are compared to holocaust jews. Indeed they sound like post WWII jews. Like victims. But look at the situation now. They are in a position of power and are pretty tough on the palestinians.

I don't believe there are good and bad people as the movie implies.

Ken Cooke - 4-28-2012 at 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K

Well, no matter what I post here, there is no pleasing some of you. The funny thing is if someone else posted this with very same title, they would be made a hero for 'giving it to the evil white man'! :lol:


As perhaps the only African-American on BN, I wouldn't use this language to describe Caucasian people in a thread. It simply sounds uneducated.

Barry A. - 4-28-2012 at 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.

In the case of the American West it was a little more complicated than "destroy" tho, for destructions sake. The settlers had their reasons, tho they were incredibly greedy & evil, for eliminating the indigenous peoples who "stood in their way". It was called Manifest Destiny, and woe the people that tried to resist it, and most "whites" believed in it. Mankind (all mankind) has a history of doing this sort of thing, unfortunately, which is what you are saying, I believe.


I doubt that individual settlers knew anything about a Manifest Destiny. I doubt that Daniel Boone knew anything about it.

I just think that americans just thought of it as unsettled land. The fact that a few subhuman aborigines occupied it was simply a nuisance. People simply moved onto land that was available.

Why would this be surprising. No country in europe would survive without a standing army. Nobody was going to respect your right to live on your land because it's 'the right thing to do'. Adding land to your territory made you more powerful. Heck, I'm still peeed at what the Ottoman Empire did to the Balkans.

Nothing has changed. Let's pretend that we just now discovered North America with these natives. What would be the outcome. I believe the takeover again would take place. Just not so brutally. The same deals would be made with an innocent mind.

I wouldn't even call the process greedy and evil. We are wired to take care of ourselves.

[Edited on 4-28-2012 by Skipjack Joe]


Yes, you are right except that what the Settler's were practicing WAS "Manifest Destiny"------they thought it was there God-given 'right' to occupy lands and move into what they thought was the wilderness-----i.e. Manifest Destiny. However, there were many, most of them in the East, that thought the plight of the Indians was horrific, and cried out against their treatment, but they were mainly brushed aside by the Govt. and the 'movers and shakers' who saw the subjugation and corraling of the Indian as necessary for the future of the Nation, and a few who just wanted them eliminated. To say that the Govt. did not help the Indian's is a vast oversimplification, but they were very clumsy at it, and really did not know how to go about it, but they were fairly sincere----------now we know it was mostly a disaster, in hind sight. We often hear about the horrible "Indian Agents" running the reservations, but many were very sincere in their desire to help------we don't much hear about them. I just finished reading a book "WON'KAN-TAH the osage and the white mans road" by J.J.Matthews about such an Agent on the Osage Reservation in the Mid-West------fascinating book.

Barry

David K - 4-28-2012 at 10:42 AM

The research in world libraries has been done and documented. Harry Crosby and Robert Jackson are two of the most recent authors who has done serious in-depth research for mission books.... Antigua California is an exceptional source of detail on the Jesuit period (1697-1768).

A Nomad was kind enough to loan me his copy of 'Lower California 1879' by Manuel C. Rojo (Dawson series #26) to help fill in the Dominican mission period, which is the least known (1773-1849+). The school at Santo Tomas is named for Rojo... So, I do examine Mexican authors contributions, as well.

While I am no financially able to fly to Europe or any of the archives of the mission writings, I can compare books on the subject and gleen details from them, and then present it in a usable, convenient format... easily to be enjoyed by the average Baja traveler. Dr. Robert Jackson also spent time with me, here in Oceanside, working on the missions details when we hoped to publish Choral Pepper's last manuscript 'Missions, Mysteries and Myths of Baja California'.

Ken Cooke - 4-28-2012 at 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by watizname
But as a "white man", I'm tired of being blamed for the sins of my fathers.


Your post made me think of this :light:

Barry A. - 4-28-2012 at 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by David K

Well, no matter what I post here, there is no pleasing some of you. The funny thing is if someone else posted this with very same title, they would be made a hero for 'giving it to the evil white man'! :lol:


As perhaps the only African-American on BN, I wouldn't use this language to describe Caucasian people in a thread. It simply sounds uneducated.


I respectfully disagree, Ken. I am a "white man", which is commonly excepted slang for "Caucasian"-------no big deal. And, I am reasonably "educated". What you are saying here is VERY "PC", in my opinion, and that offends me in a humorous way. All this PC stuff does really annoy me, and causes anger in me. I have an Indian friend who I always refer to as a "Red Man", and we all laugh about it. He calls me a "bush-ape, from the foothills of the Pacific"----no big deal!!

Lighten up, I say.

Barry

DianaT - 4-28-2012 at 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The research in world libraries has been done and documented. Harry Crosby and Robert Jackson are two of the most recent authors who has done serious in-depth research for mission books.... Antigua California is an exceptional source of detail on the Jesuit period (1697-1768).

A Nomad was kind enough to loan me his copy of 'Lower California 1879' by Manuel C. Rojo (Dawson series #26) to help fill in the Dominican mission period, which is the least known (1773-1849+). The school at Santo Tomas is named for Rojo... So, I do examine Mexican authors contributions, as well.

While I am no financially able to fly to Europe or any of the archives of the mission writings, I can compare books on the subject and gleen details from them, and then present it in a usable, convenient format... easily to be enjoyed by the average Baja traveler. Dr. Robert Jackson also spent time with me, here in Oceanside, working on the missions details when we hoped to publish Choral Pepper's last manuscript 'Missions, Mysteries and Myths of Baja California'.


David what you do not seem to understand is that no serious historian would ever write a history book without personally looking at the primary sources. Why? Because 10 people can study the same primary sources at different times and come up with 10 different interpretations. Historians only rely on the works of other historians as secondary sources and a place to begin, unless they are writing a history book that is strictly a critique of the other historian's conclusions or a comparison of different interpretations.

There are a lot of "popular" books or tour guides that do not include any primary sources, but they are not serious history books. You are writing about what other people have interpreted --- and ALL interpretations are biased. A historian would never say
Quote:

The research in world libraries has been done and documented.
and think that was it --- done and final.

Enjoy what you are writing, just accept what it really is ---one cannot earn any kind of degree in History without knowing how to use and find primary sources and understanding the potential bias even in the primary sources, and definitely in the secondary sources.

[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]

David K - 4-28-2012 at 11:06 AM

I have NEVER called myself a serious historian... I am a Baja history-lover/ fan/ reader, etc.

Great historical books have already been written... Getting that correct info to the masses is more important than re-doing what has been done... We got to undo the damage done by the California School system's teachings that San Diego was the first California mission... and even in the video by Floyd Red Crow Westerman who said Junipero Serra arrived to San Diego BY SEA! and started the missions there!!

Focus is needed on the important details... if anyone wants more details, they too can go to the great books already written. What I share here on Nomad is the kind of information guidebooks should have... and it is for free! When I have a new book published, then it will offer more and it will cost you a little more... let's just say "for you, almost free"! :light:

DianaT - 4-28-2012 at 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I have NEVER called myself a serious historian... I am a Baja history-lover/ fan/ reader, etc.

Great historical books have already been written... Getting that correct info to the masses is more important than re-doing what has been done...


I thought you were serious about the history.

I give --- you just don't understand.

dtbushpilot - 4-28-2012 at 11:32 AM

Do you ever tire of picking on DK diana? Why do DK's posts always have to turn into a pi$$ing contest with you? Can't we all just get along?.......dt

Barry A. - 4-28-2012 at 11:43 AM

Diane said, "one cannot earn any kind of degree in History without knowing how to use and find primary sources and understanding the potential bias even in the primary sources, and definitely in the secondary sources. "

#1 That simply is not true, Diane, and #2 David never said he didn't understand all that. I have a minor college degree in HISTORY and I have seldom consulted with the "primary sources" as I simply did not have access to them. I relied on other's, read their different opinions, and came to my own conclusions, and did not claim to be a "scholar". In my opinion that is all that David has done, and he said so over and over again. I love and appreciate his posts and his interpretations.

Your "standards" are, to me, just inappropriate and too picky, and way to critical in this case-------and to what end??? You are definitely on David's case (almost always), and I don't know why you do this to one of the most productive guys on the forum----it is simply not appropriate and so counter-productive to this forum, IMO. I love most of your posts, but not the one's pounding people for not meeting your standards, especially when I think you are being off-the-wall critical. I frankly don't understand your point in doing it.

OK, I got that off my chest-------now you can pound me. :lol:

Barry

DianaT - 4-28-2012 at 11:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dtbushpilot
Do you ever tire of picking on DK diana? Why do DK's posts always have to turn into a pi$$ing contest with you? Can't we all just get along?.......dt


He is the eternal victim and I guess I am the only one who ever disagrees with him --- or at least I guess that is how you see it.
As I said, I give as he will never understand what history is and is not.

I do wish him well with his writing efforts --- no matter what he calls them.

DianaT - 4-28-2012 at 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Diane said, "one cannot earn any kind of degree in History without knowing how to use and find primary sources and understanding the potential bias even in the primary sources, and definitely in the secondary sources. "

#1 That simply is not true, Diane, and #2 David never said he didn't understand all that. I have a minor college degree in HISTORY and I have seldom consulted with the "primary sources" as I simply did not have access to them. I relied on other's, read their different opinions, and came to my own conclusions, and did not claim to be a "scholar". In my opinion that is all that David has done, and he said so over and over again. I love and appreciate his posts and his interpretations.

Your "standards" are, to me, just inappropriate and too picky, and way to critical in this case-------and to what end??? You are definitely on David's case (almost always), and I don't know why you do this to one of the most productive guys on the forum----it is simply not appropriate and so counter-productive to this forum, IMO. I love most of your posts, but not the one's pounding people for not meeting your standards, especially when I think you are being off-the-wall critical. I frankly don't understand your point in doing it.

OK, I got that off my chest-------now you can pound me. :lol:

Barry


No, not going to pound on you. You are entitled to your opinion and your perception of things.

The only thing I will disagree with is if you did not learn about what primary sources were in college, I wonder where you went to college? Even if you did not use them, surely you learned about the importance of them and their potential bias?? And surely you learned that those secondary sources were not ever the "correct" history?



[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]

Barry A. - 4-28-2012 at 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Diane said, "one cannot earn any kind of degree in History without knowing how to use and find primary sources and understanding the potential bias even in the primary sources, and definitely in the secondary sources. "

#1 That simply is not true, Diane, and #2 David never said he didn't understand all that. I have a minor college degree in HISTORY and I have seldom consulted with the "primary sources" as I simply did not have access to them. I relied on other's, read their different opinions, and came to my own conclusions, and did not claim to be a "scholar". In my opinion that is all that David has done, and he said so over and over again. I love and appreciate his posts and his interpretations.

Your "standards" are, to me, just inappropriate and too picky, and way to critical in this case-------and to what end??? You are definitely on David's case (almost always), and I don't know why you do this to one of the most productive guys on the forum----it is simply not appropriate and so counter-productive to this forum, IMO. I love most of your posts, but not the one's pounding people for not meeting your standards, especially when I think you are being off-the-wall critical. I frankly don't understand your point in doing it.

OK, I got that off my chest-------now you can pound me. :lol:

Barry


No, not going to pound on you. You are entitled to your opinion and your perception of things.

The only thing I will disagree with is if you did not learn about what primary sources were in college, I wonder where you went to college? Even if you did not use them, surely you learned about the importance of them and their potential bias?? And surely you learned that those secondary sources were not ever the "correct" history?



[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]


Arghhhhhh------San Diego State University class of '75-------

Neither David (I suspect) nor I are refuting your statement on the importance and bias of "sources"----------and have said so over and over and over again. What we don't except is it's relevance here. What part of that don't you understand?????? You are ranting against a ghost----we understand your point, but you won't except that, for reasons only you know.

Barry

Cypress - 4-28-2012 at 12:25 PM

Sources? Primary sources? And?:lol:

norte - 4-28-2012 at 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Diane said, "one cannot earn any kind of degree in History without knowing how to use and find primary sources and understanding the potential bias even in the primary sources, and definitely in the secondary sources. "

#1 That simply is not true, Diane, and #2 David never said he didn't understand all that. I have a minor college degree in HISTORY and I have seldom consulted with the "primary sources" as I simply did not have access to them. I relied on other's, read their different opinions, and came to my own conclusions, and did not claim to be a "scholar". In my opinion that is all that David has done, and he said so over and over again. I love and appreciate his posts and his interpretations.

Your "standards" are, to me, just inappropriate and too picky, and way to critical in this case-------and to what end??? You are definitely on David's case (almost always), and I don't know why you do this to one of the most productive guys on the forum----it is simply not appropriate and so counter-productive to this forum, IMO. I love most of your posts, but not the one's pounding people for not meeting your standards, especially when I think you are being off-the-wall critical. I frankly don't understand your point in doing it.

OK, I got that off my chest-------now you can pound me. :lol:

Barry


No, not going to pound on you. You are entitled to your opinion and your perception of things.

The only thing I will disagree with is if you did not learn about what primary sources were in college, I wonder where you went to college? Even if you did not use them, surely you learned about the importance of them and their potential bias?? And surely you learned that those secondary sources were not ever the "correct" history?



[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]


Arghhhhhh------San Diego State University class of '75-------

Neither David (I suspect) nor I are refuting your statement on the importance and bias of "sources"----------and have said so over and over and over again. What we don't except is it's relevance here. What part of that don't you understand?????? You are ranting against a ghost----we understand your point, but you won't except that, for reasons only you know.

Barry


That must have been when you were 50....sorry couldn't help it.
Now I am guilty of age bias.

Thought you lived in El Centro or somewhere like that in the 70's.

tripledigitken - 4-28-2012 at 12:29 PM

Barry,

Simple, it comes down to politics.

History is always subjective, written through the belief system of the author.

Ken

Barry A. - 4-28-2012 at 12:44 PM

Norte----------:lol: I am losing it----------------class of '65, not '75. I was in El Centro from early '74 to mid-'86.

Details, details, details------hard for me to keep things straight. :lol:

I once sued my Govt. bosses for "age discrimination" (it was blatant)-------we settled for what was mutually beneficial. :lol:

And Ken, you are so right.

Barry

[Edited on 4-28-2012 by Barry A.]

Cypress - 4-28-2012 at 12:48 PM

Sitting Bull!:biggrin:

Barry A. - 4-28-2012 at 01:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Sitting Bull!:biggrin:


-------and Crazy Horse--------a great team!!!! :light:

Barry

Thanks David for your contribution

EnsenadaDr - 4-28-2012 at 02:05 PM

David,

I for one appreciate your contributions and do not have time to go to museums and libraries to research the Jesuits original writings, I am too busy working and studying for my boards so I appreciate posts like yours that give me a more well rounded view of the world.
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I didn't say 'written' was the only type...

Rare view... well, as far as the CALIFORNIA story (on the Indians' side) goes... and when I say California, I mean the original California...

How about presenting more Native American links to their California history? It would be appreciated...


David, do your own research and for primary sources, try some University and Museum libraries----do you know where the original Jesuit writings are housed? If you are writing a history book, searching for the primary sources is essential; any history book is far more credible if it includes primary and well as secondary sources. And it is even more credible if the sources are from English and Spanish sources. Otherwise, it becomes more of tour guide.

Nothing wrong with tour guides, but they are not history books. They may include some simple ideas about the history of an area, but they are certainly not credible sources for learning history.

[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]

The White man...

EnsenadaDr - 4-28-2012 at 02:13 PM

From the 1927 Grand Council of American Indians

"The white people, who are trying to make us over into their image, they want us to be what they call "assimilated," bringing the Indians into the mainstream and destroying our own way of life and our own cultural patterns." from http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/quotes.html or Quotes from our native past...Indians themselves refer to "the white man"..so did the native Hawaiians when they saw Captain Cook.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by David K

Well, no matter what I post here, there is no pleasing some of you. The funny thing is if someone else posted this with very same title, they would be made a hero for 'giving it to the evil white man'! :lol:


As perhaps the only African-American on BN, I wouldn't use this language to describe Caucasian people in a thread. It simply sounds uneducated.

DianaT - 4-28-2012 at 02:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
David,

I for one appreciate your contributions and do not have time to go to museums and libraries to research the Jesuits original writings, I am too busy working and studying for my boards so I appreciate posts like yours that give me a more well rounded view of the world.
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I didn't say 'written' was the only type...

Rare view... well, as far as the CALIFORNIA story (on the Indians' side) goes... and when I say California, I mean the original California...

How about presenting more Native American links to their California history? It would be appreciated...


David, do your own research and for primary sources, try some University and Museum libraries----do you know where the original Jesuit writings are housed? If you are writing a history book, searching for the primary sources is essential; any history book is far more credible if it includes primary and well as secondary sources. And it is even more credible if the sources are from English and Spanish sources. Otherwise, it becomes more of tour guide.

Nothing wrong with tour guides, but they are not history books. They may include some simple ideas about the history of an area, but they are certainly not credible sources for learning history.

[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]


You know, if someone can find any post on this thread where I did not encourage David to continue his writing, I sure wish someone would quote it. In fact, I encouraged him to continue with what he is doing. And there is nothing wrong with pop history books, or tour guides, especially if they encourage people to think a bit more about history and maybe pursue more information.

I made the mistake of thinking he wanted to be a serious historian and encouraged him to do real research if that is the case. But he admits that he is not a serious historian.

Quote:

I have NEVER called myself a serious historian... I am a Baja history-lover/ fan/ reader, etc.


David, I apologize for thinking you wanted to be a serious historian.

This quote from him is when I said I give
Quote:

Getting that correct info to the masses is more important than re-doing what has been done...


Is it correct information? Perhaps, and perhaps it is biased as is ALL history --- His version of the Mission History based on the research of others is interesting and quite biased. Gees, it is easy to see some very slanted bias in that video --- certainly some very biased generalizations.

I certainly was not suggesting that everyone run out and read primary sources on their own --- only suggested it if someone was writing a serious history book and was a serious historian.

But I guess that is seen as picking on the poor boy and having too high of standards, or perhaps just an awareness of what is happening.

[Edited on 4-28-2012 by DianaT]

Cypress - 4-28-2012 at 02:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Sitting Bull!:biggrin:


-------and Crazy Horse--------a great team!!!! :light:Barry

:biggrin:

WOW, been gone awhile !!

captkw - 4-28-2012 at 04:58 PM

Hey ,,trust the gov...just ask a indian !! and.... vegaterin= old indian word for lousy hunter ..LOL K & T back in the land of the fee.....

wessongroup - 4-28-2012 at 05:49 PM

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

huh !! where is this videio ????

captkw - 4-28-2012 at 06:06 PM

HOLA/HIGH/ HI,,,is this vid ,,umm around ?? K&T

white man

captkw - 4-29-2012 at 07:14 AM

Hola,anyone know where this vid can be whatched ??? K & t

dtbushpilot - 4-29-2012 at 08:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by captkw
Hola,anyone know where this vid can be whatched ??? K & t



On page 1 of this topic gnukid posted a link to the video, just click on the play button in the middle of the picture. Part 2 and 3 are there too, interesting stuff.....dt

Skipjack Joe - 4-29-2012 at 08:49 AM

Or copy and paste it into a separate browser. The link mysteriously didn't work for me either.

Cypress - 4-29-2012 at 09:08 AM

Geronimo!:spingrin:

Hook - 4-29-2012 at 09:23 AM

David, that you for creating a post that has kept the Playa Buenaventura thread off the front page for 24 hours. :biggrin:

David K - 4-30-2012 at 09:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by captkw
Hola,anyone know where this vid can be whatched ??? K & t


You can buy your own copy from the film's co-producer, how it got on You Tube is unknown (and not approved) and naturally doesn't help pay the cost of creating it. Send me a u2u and I will get you ordering details. Otherwise, watch it for free on You Tube (and once again the white man rips off the red man)!:smug:

David K - 4-30-2012 at 10:53 AM

What a great way to fish... LOL!

Ken Cooke - 4-30-2012 at 03:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Otherwise, watch it for free on You Tube (and once again the white man rips off the red man)!:smug:



Why not flag the material as 'inappropriate' on grounds of not granted permission for public use?

David K - 4-30-2012 at 06:00 PM

I don't understand what you are trying to convey Ken...? Flag? inappropriate?

Ken Cooke - 4-30-2012 at 09:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I don't understand what you are trying to convey Ken...? Flag? inappropriate?


YouTube content has to be approved and maintain its approval, or it will get reviewed for possible abuse by the owner (Google).

David K - 4-30-2012 at 11:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I don't understand what you are trying to convey Ken...? Flag? inappropriate?


YouTube content has to be approved and maintain its approval, or it will get reviewed for possible abuse by the owner (Google).


Interesting, well the co-producer didn't okay it! :rolleyes:

shari - 5-1-2012 at 06:42 AM

Personally I really appreciate that it IS on youtube so it gets more exposure than a private for sale film...sorry for your neighbours trying to make some money off it though. These types of documentaries should be widely viewed and public....would love to see this as part of the history courses in schools too.

DianaT - 5-1-2012 at 08:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I don't understand what you are trying to convey Ken...? Flag? inappropriate?


YouTube content has to be approved and maintain its approval, or it will get reviewed for possible abuse by the owner (Google).


If the owner of this material did not give permission for the public free use of this video, there is a complaint form they can use and it will be removed from U-tube.

Maybe the owner of the material gave permission???? If not, they certainly have the right to earn money from their work or donate it, but it should be their choice.

It is one of the downsides of the internet--too easy to take and use the work of others without permission.

David K - 5-1-2012 at 09:03 AM

The owner is dead, my neighbor was one of the producers.

J.P. - 5-1-2012 at 09:27 AM

What's everyone so sensetive about . When i was a small kid it was Saturday Afternoon Enertainment to sit through the afternoon at the local Movie House watching the White Man Kill INDIANS

You know what the Lone Ranger said to Tonto when they were surounded by Indians. Tonto what are going to do we are surounded by Indian's . TONTO REPLIED WHAT DO YOU MEAN "WE" WHITE MAN

[Edited on 5-1-2012 by J.P.]

gnukid - 5-1-2012 at 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The owner is dead, my neighbor was one of the producers.


The owner of a copyrighted material can decide how to distribute a video where the copyright is recognized, if he passed away then the owner may also give the copyright in a will to someone or the copyright expires.

In addition to copyrighted material being owned and sold for profit it can also be used a variety of manner freely, including for non-profit, research and education etc...

The video was posted on youtube with a claim to use the video for non-profit education.

There is no evidence that the poster is profiting from someone's material unfairly or has committed any copyright infringement.

Read more about copyright if you want to understand how it's possible for anyone to use any material fairly.

David K - 5-1-2012 at 03:04 PM

'For Educational Use' is what it is all about...

Ken Cooke - 5-1-2012 at 06:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I don't understand what you are trying to convey Ken...? Flag? inappropriate?


YouTube content has to be approved and maintain its approval, or it will get reviewed for possible abuse by the owner (Google).


Interesting, well the co-producer didn't okay it! :rolleyes:


The co-producer needs to alert YouTube by flagging the video in order that the video is pulled from YouTube. This is a common occurance that will also affect the account of the person who posted the 'Exterminate Them' video without permission.

gnukid - 5-1-2012 at 07:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I don't understand what you are trying to convey Ken...? Flag? inappropriate?


YouTube content has to be approved and maintain its approval, or it will get reviewed for possible abuse by the owner (Google).


Interesting, well the co-producer didn't okay it! :rolleyes:


The co-producer needs to alert YouTube by flagging the video in order that the video is pulled from YouTube. This is a common occurance that will also affect the account of the person who posted the 'Exterminate Them' video without permission.


It depends on the context, one can share media such as movies or songs under "fair use" legally. It seems that you two, DK and Ken should take some time to read about and understand fair use prior to making broad statements about copyright and specifically about ownership and use of this movie of which you are not a party to.

In fact, there is nothing to indicate any copyright infringement and furthermore your comments may be hurtful and damaging to the intent of the author and owner.

Imagine if one were to follow your logic, that everything ever made or discovered should be copyrighted and restricted, one day there would be nothing left not copyrighted and restricted.

Imagine if one were to follow this convoluted logic and the idea of building a house was copyrighted and restricted, as well all cooking recipes. You would be restricted from having a home or cooking unless you paid royalties. Give it some thought and do some research.

YouTube explains Copyrighted Works

Ken Cooke - 5-1-2012 at 07:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
It seems that you two, DK and Ken should take some time to read about and understand fair use prior to making broad statements about copyright and specifically about ownership and use of this movie of which you are not a party to.


link: http://www.youtube.com/t/howto_copyright

What is copyright infringement? Copyright infringement occurs when a copyrighted work is reproduced, distributed, performed, publicly displayed, or made into a derivative work without the permission of the copyright owner.

The way to ensure that your video doesn't infringe someone else's copyright is to use your skills and imagination to create something completely original.

Be sure that all components of your video are your original creation—even the audio portion.

http://support.google.com/youtube/bin/answer.py?hl=en&an...

Some examples of potentially infringing content are:

TV shows
Including sitcoms, sports broadcasts, news broadcasts, comedy shows, cartoons, dramas, etc.
Includes network and cable TV, pay-per-view and on-demand TV
Music videos, such as the ones you might find on music video channels
Videos of live concerts, even if you captured the video yourself
Even if you took the video yourself, videotaping a concert of your favorite band does not necessarily give you the right to reproduce and distribute the video of the concert without permission from the music publisher (who represents the song writer).
Movies and movie trailers
Commercials
Slide shows that include photos or images owned by somebody else

This video has been removed by the user.

Ken Cooke - 5-1-2012 at 07:30 PM


Sorry about that.

gnukid - 5-1-2012 at 07:47 PM

Ken,

Follow the links you posted to read and investigate copyright and fair use and the many applications of copyright.

From the pages you linked:

http://support.google.com/youtube/bin/answer.py?hl=en&an...

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/...
http://www.copyrightwebsite.com/Info/Law/FairUse.aspx
http://chillingeffects.org/fairuse/

This particular video is unlikely to be copyrighted due to the fact the copyright holder has passed away, furthermore, fair use allows it to be shared for non-profit educational purposes.

The subject matter is historical which presents it's own issues associated with copyright, can you imagine if everyone who reported on history could then hide/restrict public history under a copyright?

The nature of your argument, that this video being viewed in it's form on youtube is a copyright violation is problematic and unsubstantiated , though its great we are having this educational discussion.

In fact, one (presumably the copyright holder) could argue that your misinformed efforts are hurtful and damaging to the intent of the copyright owner and therefore you are liable for damages, due to loss of income by falsely promoting the incorrect flagging of the video and thereby hurting the promotion of the project.

The point is you need to do more research into copyright, fair use and this particular work prior to making allegations and promoting flagging.

Note you often post links to songs that are certainly copyrighted though are allowed on youtube for use and that is something you seem to understand very well, yet you object to a historical education work?

Ken Cooke - 5-1-2012 at 08:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
This particular video is unlikely to be copyrighted due to the fact the copyright holder has passed away, furthermore, fair use allows it to be shared for non-profit educational purposes.


Not necessarily true. http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

Where an author is dead, his or her termination interest is owned, and may be exercised, as follows:
(A) The widow or widower owns the author’s entire termination interest unless there are any surviving children or grandchildren of the author, in which case the widow or widower owns one-half of the author’s interest.

(B) The author’s surviving children, and the surviving children of any dead child of the author, own the author’s entire termination interest unless there is a widow or widower, in which case the ownership of one-half of the author’s interest is divided among them.

(C) The rights of the author’s children and grandchildren are in all cases divided among them and exercised on a per stirpes basis according to the number of such author’s children represented; the share of the children of a dead child in a termination interest can be exercised only by the action of a majority of them.

(D) In the event that the author’s widow or widower, children, and grandchildren are not living, the author’s executor, administrator, personal representative, or trustee shall own the author’s entire termination interest.

(3) Termination of the grant may be effected at any time during a period of five years beginning at the end of thirty-five years from the date of execution

gnukid - 5-1-2012 at 08:26 PM

Ken,

If you have a legitimate concern about a copyright infringement and therefore seek to restrict the video "Exterminate Them" based on your concern, contact the family and let them know that some of us apparently watched the video on BN and have had an interesting discussion about the issues presented yet you think they should pull the video from youtube. Or you could buy it.

http://www.floydredcrowwesterman.com/

contact:

Rosie Westerman
Box 10464
Marina del Rey, CA 90295

Ken Cooke - 5-1-2012 at 08:34 PM

Actually, I was offering to help David K if he had a legitimate concern as to the usage of this DVD whose contents were being usurped by being posted to YouTube.

gnukid - 5-1-2012 at 08:40 PM

Do it Ken, follow through with a nice letter to the family, perhaps they will appreciate it either way.

I really appreciated the video and am very interested in the history and plight of indigenous people.

---
You also realize that you have embedded a video in your signature which has many songs:

1) The video loads for each message you send, in this case multiple times per page, and requires each BN member pay the cost and burden of downloading the data which they may not want nor feel comfortable having associated with their ISP account.

2) You may need to do a thorough check of each song to ensure it is copyright free by contacting the author and owner of each song.



[Edited on 5-2-2012 by gnukid]

Ken Cooke - 5-1-2012 at 09:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Do it Ken, follow through with a nice letter to the family, perhaps they will appreciate it either way.

[Edited on 5-2-2012 by gnukid]


Do it for me. I have lots more important stuff on my calendar.

Ken Cooke - 5-1-2012 at 09:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid

1) The video loads for each message you send, in this case multiple times per page, and requires each BN member pay the cost and burden of downloading the data which they may not want nor feel comfortable having associated with their ISP account.



Wrong again. Did you remember to take your meds? :?::lol:

CortezBlue - 5-1-2012 at 11:03 PM

Rat Hole