BajaNomad

Mirrorless Cameras?

DianaT - 7-5-2012 at 08:36 PM

For all of you Baja photographers, I have a question. What do know about the relatively new mirror less cameras?

I am happy with my Cannon outfit, but sometimes a smaller, lighter camera would be nice and I have been looking at the possibility of a mirror less camera --- from what I read, they are far superior to a point and shoot???

Thanks

[Edited on 7-6-2012 by DianaT]

Ken Bondy - 7-5-2012 at 08:45 PM

Diane
I don't know much about them but from what I have read they are simply viewfinder cameras with interchangeable lenses. For me the lack of TTL viewing would be a big drawback for "macro" subjects, where precise composition is mandatory, but ok for wide angle stuff like landscapes, portraits, etc where parallax is not a big problem.

DianaT - 7-5-2012 at 08:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Diane
I don't know much about them but from what I have read they are simply viewfinder cameras with interchangeable lenses. For me the lack of TTL viewing would be a big drawback for "macro" subjects, where precise composition is mandatory, but ok for wide angle stuff like landscapes, portraits, etc where parallax is not a big problem.


I had not read anything about that --- interesting. Thinking about wanting a small light weight camera for some uses, I liked the idea of the large sensors.

THANKS

CortezBlue - 7-5-2012 at 09:11 PM

So being a photographer from a young age and having been a camera junkie since I had enough money to buy cameras and lenses, I have an opinion on everything, but definetly camera shtuffff

First and primarily I look at a camera as a way to take a photo. That being said, I kind of cringe at a telephone with a camera, but I have used my cell phone for some photos that I would rather have poorly than not at all.

Hoever the technology behind mirrorless cameras bring a, kinda, new idea.

Mirorless cameras allow the camera to be smaller. It allows a direct capture of lights and shadows from the lens directly.

Without the "slap" of the mirror, the camera will take a much more still photo.

However, bottomline, it is a gimmick and another way to market cameras that are small and handy.

If it fits your needs and you like it, buy it. If you want to be a serious photographer but don't want a DSLR, then look at the Canon G series camera and the high end Nikon point and shoot. Look for optical zooming, not a digital zoom.

Learn to understand the combinations of ISO/Apperature/Shutter and how it makes a difference

Learn Depth of Field and how it changes with the apperature of the camera.

Shoot in Auto when the camera is new and then challenge your self on how to take a photo.

DianaT - 7-5-2012 at 09:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CortezBlue
So being a photographer from a young age and having been a camera junkie since I had enough money to buy cameras and lenses, I have an opinion on everything, but definetly camera shtuffff

First and primarily I look at a camera as a way to take a photo. That being said, I kind of cringe at a telephone with a camera, but I have used my cell phone for some photos that I would rather have poorly than not at all.

Hoever the technology behind mirrorless cameras bring a, kinda, new idea.

Mirorless cameras allow the camera to be smaller. It allows a direct capture of lights and shadows from the lens directly.

Without the "slap" of the mirror, the camera will take a much more still photo.

However, bottomline, it is a gimmick and another way to market cameras that are small and handy.

If it fits your needs and you like it, buy it. If you want to be a serious photographer but don't want a DSLR, then look at the Canon G series camera and the high end Nikon point and shoot. Look for optical zooming, not a digital zoom.

Learn to understand the combinations of ISO/Apperature/Shutter and how it makes a difference

Learn Depth of Field and how it changes with the apperature of the camera.

Shoot in Auto when the camera is new and then challenge your self on how to take a photo.


Thanks for all the info. I really like my Canon 40D --- sometimes it is just bulkier than I want to carry in some situations. I definitely am not looking to replace it.

Mirrorless just sounded like a possible good idea. I know that when I remember and am using a tripod, I open the mirror to avoid that slap.

I will look also at the Canon G 2 series. Thanks

Stickers - 7-5-2012 at 09:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Diane
I don't know much about them but from what I have read they are simply viewfinder cameras with interchangeable lenses. For me the lack of TTL viewing would be a big drawback for "macro" subjects, where precise composition is mandatory, but ok for wide angle stuff like landscapes, portraits, etc where parallax is not a big problem.


Don't all these cameras have a big bright LCD screen? Why would parallax be and issue if peviewing the actual digital photo on the screen? just curious:?:

tripledigitken - 7-5-2012 at 10:06 PM

Diana,

I recommend you consider this point and shoot for your research.

Lumix DMC-LX5

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Panasonic_Lumix_DMC_LX5/ve...

Ken

tripledigitken - 7-5-2012 at 10:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stickers

Don't all these cameras have a big bright LCD screen? Why would parallax be and issue if peviewing the actual digital photo on the screen? just curious:?:


Stickers,

Focusing and even composition can be challenging with the LCD screens in bright light.

Ken

DianaT - 7-5-2012 at 10:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Diana,

I recommend you consider this point and shoot for your research.

Lumix DMC-LX5

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Panasonic_Lumix_DMC_LX5/ve...

Ken


Thanks and I will do so

Johannes - 7-5-2012 at 10:31 PM

I have a Canon Powershot SX230 and love it (upgraded from an older PowerShot) , carry it around with me all times in a pouch on my belt. It is great to have a 14x optical zoom with you and when you need to go to 56x zoom with digital zoom. Use it more often than my binoculars to figure out what's on the horizon. Am tempted to upgrade to the new SX260 with a 20x optical zoom. If that is not enough look at the PowerShot SX40 or get the older PowerShot SX20. There is a good review at
http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Canon_PowerShot_SX40_HS/

Russ - 7-6-2012 at 05:56 AM

Hi Diana, As you know by now I have the Nikon P510. I have put the D60 on the shelf. For sure the optics aren't in the same class but pretty good considering the price. It's is slower to focus and turn on but the convenience of not hauling lenses around make it a good camera with a 42x zoom (1000mm). I'm really happy with it. I never was in your class or others here so the higher resolution of a bigger camera is not as much an issue for me. Cnet has a review on it and youtube some videos.
http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cameras/nikon-coolpix-p510-b...

DianaT - 7-6-2012 at 07:09 AM

Johannes and Russ----thanks, I will keep those in mind and I will check out those links! THANKS

Ken Bondy - 7-6-2012 at 07:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stickers
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Diane
I don't know much about them but from what I have read they are simply viewfinder cameras with interchangeable lenses. For me the lack of TTL viewing would be a big drawback for "macro" subjects, where precise composition is mandatory, but ok for wide angle stuff like landscapes, portraits, etc where parallax is not a big problem.


Don't all these cameras have a big bright LCD screen? Why would parallax be and issue if peviewing the actual digital photo on the screen? just curious:?:


Stickers to my knowledge the image on the screen is not what you see through the lens (TTL) so parallax would be a problem in composing very close subjects.

mtgoat666 - 7-6-2012 at 07:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
For all of you Baja photographers, I have a question. What do know about the relatively new mirror less cameras?

I am happy with my Cannon outfit, but sometimes a smaller, lighter camera would be nice and I have been looking at the possibility of a mirror less camera --- from what I read, they are far superior to a point and shoot???

Thanks

[Edited on 7-6-2012 by DianaT]


the micro 4/3 cameras are really nice. i just bought an olympus omd em5 (it seems to be popular, 1 month back order at all the usual online dealers). if it works as well as the hype suggests, going to sell my canon slr and lenses. the bulk of canon slr and lenses really got to be a drag for hiking and traveling. these days it's all got to fit in an airplane carry-on and slr gathers dust only getting used on car trips that don't involve hiking.

the olympus has a ttl electronic viewfinder so you can do macro with confidence.

4x4abc - 7-6-2012 at 07:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
For all of you Baja photographers, I have a question. What do know about the relatively new mirror less cameras?


Diana,

mirror less cameras are not new at all - before the invention of SLR cameras in 1949 cameras had no mirror
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-lens_reflex_camera

though SLR cameras were a big step forward in photography viewfinder cameras have become much better over time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viewfinder

as good as SLR cameras are - they are big and bulky
add extra lenses and taking pictures becomes a physical excercise - and why would you want to schlepp around a brick to just snap some family pictures or capture memorable moments of your vacation

so, viewfinder cameras have been rediscovered as an alternative to big SLR's

I have recently switched after decades with Nikon and Leica to a small Fujifilm X-Pro which produces stunning images.

I happily gave up my $10,000 Leica M9 for an absolutely delightful relationship with Fuji X-Pro (an up version of the X100 described below):
http://www.kenrockwell.com/fuji/x100/compared.htm

sample images:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/trips/2011-06-san-diego/index.htm

here is a comparison of good SLR with 4 good viewfinders (the last 4):
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/2012-04-dslrs.ht...

mtgoat666 - 7-6-2012 at 08:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 4x4abc
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
For all of you Baja photographers, I have a question. What do know about the relatively new mirror less cameras?


mirror less cameras are not new at all - before the invention of SLR cameras in 1949 cameras had no mirror
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-lens_reflex_camera


the fuji camera you cited has a viewfinder that does not show TTL image. i suspect that diana was asking about mirror-less cameras with electronic through-the-lens viewfinders.

4x4abc - 7-6-2012 at 09:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666

the fuji camera you cited has a viewfinder that does not show TTL image. i suspect that diana was asking about mirror-less cameras with electronic through-the-lens viewfinders.


Both, Fujifilm X100 and X-Pro, show TTL images (in the viewfinder and on the rear display) - an optical viewfinder is also available

here is a helpful guide to select the camera you need/want:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/recommended-cameras.htm

DianaT - 7-6-2012 at 04:03 PM

Goat---please let me know what you think about your new camera after using it for a while --- thanks, I will check that one out. At this point, I am not sure for what I am looking --- I am still in the questioning and research stage.

4x4abc --- Many thanks for all the information and I will definitely look at those links.

Yes, there are times I just don't want to lug around the equipment I have. I can't imagine getting rid of it at this point because I use it, but who knows.

rts551 - 7-6-2012 at 04:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Goat---please let me know what you think about your new camera after using it for a while --- thanks, I will check that one out. At this point, I am not sure for what I am looking --- I am still in the questioning and research stage.

4x4abc --- Many thanks for all the information and I will definitely look at those links.

Yes, there are times I just don't want to lug around the equipment I have. I can't imagine getting rid of it at this point because I use it, but who knows.


Ypu can give it to me. Kevin says muchas gracias

DianaT - 7-6-2012 at 04:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Ypu can give it to me. Kevin says muchas gracias


You are becoming an internet beggar. First you just want information, and now you want the goods. :lol::lol:

[Edited on 7-7-2012 by DianaT]

Neal Johns - 7-6-2012 at 06:00 PM

One of the most respected (and thorough) sites for digital camera tests and analysis is:
http://www.dpreview.com/

A review of 2011 mirrorless digital cameras is at:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8986630048/mirrorless-round...

[Edited on 7-7-2012 by Neal Johns]

Skipjack Joe - 7-7-2012 at 09:53 AM

There have been many good suggestions made. I just want to add mine. I went from a film SLR to a digital point-and-shoot camera primarily due to cost. I couldn't see paying $4000 for what I had been paying $300 just 15 years ago.

Diane, the point-and-shoot camera just isn't for a serious photographer. It's for snapshots. And regardless what features they add it remains so.

The worst thing is the viewfinder in these small cameras. You will be so disapointed after working with a DSLR. When you compose a picture you look through that thing carefully so that your frame contains the objects in space just the way you want them. Then you shoot. This is virtually inpossible in these small cameras. A viewfinder needs to be large enough so that it looks like a movie theater screen. There should be darkness all around the image. Most people don't even use the viewfinder and resort to using the display screen instead. In fact the cheap models don't even have viewfinder. They hold the camera at arms length and look at a 2" screen while composing.

And that brings up the next biggest problem - it's size. Size is supposed to be it's asset, right? Yes and no. The camera is so small that it becomes difficult to hold it steady. When you shoot a DSLR you lock your elbows close to bode and push the camera into face. I've shot at speeds down to 1/60 of a second and still gotten sharp images. The smaller camera is now steadied by fingers rather than hands and you just have to shoot at higher speeds to get good sharpness. If you don't have manual mode you don't know what you will be getting because the display screen is too small to show blur.

But even if you do everything right and get the best image that camera is capable of you won't get the quality you're now getting. The best mirrorless cameras still have much smaller sensors than the average DSLR. And the average DSLR have sensors that are too small to take good images. The canon you are now using, although not a full frame sensor, is the closest thing to it and much better than the average DSLR. There was a major step forward in your photography when you got your current equipment so now you would be stepping back to the frustration you dealt with earlier (I remember). For example, there are no gradations of white in the sky (that's my pictures look).

So, if you have your heart set on these small cameras then the newer ones with the bigger sensor is the way to go. I would wait about a year though.

I guess I feel that your photography will not improve with the small camera - it will regress.

tripledigitken - 7-7-2012 at 11:06 AM

Most professional photographers have a smaller camera of some type in their quiver. Are they replacements for a full sized DSLR's? Up until the current mirrorless models most would say no.

Thom Hogan one of the Nikon guru's and widely read for his reviews and opinions carries around this arsenal.

Compact: Canon G1x, or Nikon V1 instead of compact

Mirrorless: Olympus E-P3 (primary lenses: 9-18mm, 12mm, 14-42mm, 45mm, 100-300mm)

Nikon DX DSLR: D7000 (primary lenses: Tokina 11-16mm, Sigma 17-50mm, Nikon 70-200mm or 70-300mm)

Nikon FX DSLR: D4 and D800 (primary lenses: 14-24mm, 24-70mm, 70-200mm, 200-400mm, 400mm Nikkors)

(SB-700/900 flashes with PocketWizards)
Video: Canon XA10, Sony FS100u, GoPro HD

I use a Leica D-Lux 4 and have posted many images with it. Unless you are enlarging beyond 8x10, and are careful in low light it gives very good results. These images had minimal post processing.

this was taken indoors iso 400, f/2, 1/25 sec.





iso 400, f 3.2, 1/250 sec.




This is BW right out of the camera,
iso 100, f 2, 1/400 sec.




Everything in photography is a compromise. Like Hogan's inventory above, for instance, arguably the best camera he has is the D4, but it's bulk makes it a second or third choice depending on what and where he is shooting.

just my 2 cents.

Diana,

My D-Lux 4 is essentially the same camera as the point and shoot I recommended to you (Lumix DMC Lx5).

Here is a good article on what PS cameras 13 professionals use and why.

http://blog.photoshelter.com/2011/11/digital-point-and-shoot...





[Edited on 7-7-2012 by tripledigitken]

DianaT - 7-7-2012 at 11:30 AM

Igor and Ken, I really appreciate the input. Lots of things to consider, but at least if I buy one, it won't be the investment that a full frame camera would be!

And Neal, before I buy anything, I will read a review of same at dpreview!

Off to read the blog Ken suggested.

When a question like this is asked, it is really quite nice that people take their time to tell their own personal experiences, give their opinion, nicely disagree with other opinions, and put links to places with more information. :yes: :yes:

THANKS

Skipjack Joe - 7-7-2012 at 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken

Thom Hogan one of the Nikon guru's and widely read for his reviews and opinions carries around this arsenal.

Compact: Canon G1x, or Nikon V1 instead of compact

Mirrorless: Olympus E-P3 (primary lenses: 9-18mm, 12mm, 14-42mm, 45mm, 100-300mm)



Isn't the Canon G1x a mirrorless camera rather than a compact?

Is it because it has a fixed lens that you put it into the compact category.

Canon, as I understand it, has decided to feature the larger sensor that the mirrorless cameras use, but still have the single 4X fixed lens.

tripledigitken - 7-7-2012 at 12:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken

Thom Hogan one of the Nikon guru's and widely read for his reviews and opinions carries around this arsenal.

Compact: Canon G1x, or Nikon V1 instead of compact

Mirrorless: Olympus E-P3 (primary lenses: 9-18mm, 12mm, 14-42mm, 45mm, 100-300mm)



....Is it because it has a fixed lens that you put it into the compact category.



The list of his camera's were copied and pasted off his website, his definitions not mine. My guess it is there because of size.