BajaNomad

The latest on Visas and Citizenship

oxxo - 9-3-2012 at 08:44 AM

I applied for renewal of my FM2 visa last week. I use and pay for an expediter to process my paperwork. By day, he is a manager in the San Lucas Immigration office. I use him because it is nice to have friends in high places. Here is the latest from his office. Your experience and local office may vary!

There is no more FM2 and FM3 visa. The FM2 visa has been replaced by the "Inmigrante" visa and the FM3 has been replaced by the "Noninmigrante" visa. Expatriates continue to call them FM2 and FM3 and Mexican Immigration humors them since gringos are reluctant to use the new nomenclature.

The Noninmigrante (FM3) is a non-resident visa. The holder has unlimited entry and exit privileges throughout the year. It provides some additional privileges under Mexican law such as obtaining a Senior Card. Requires annual renewal.

The Inmigrante (FM2) is a resident visa. The holder is limited to a maximum 180 days out of Mexico over a 5 year period. If you exceed 180 days in 5 years, you are issued a Noninmigrante (FM3) visa at your next renewal. An Inmigrante visa is the statement by the holder that he intends to become a legal permanent resident of Mexico (not necessarily a citizen). There are even more privileges allowed under Mexican law. Requires annual renewal.

After 4 renewals (in other words 5 years) of the Inmigrante (FM2) visa with less than 180 days out of country during that period, the holder is permitted to apply for an Inmigrado visa. This is the permanent resident visa. Once obtained, it is a lifetime visa with no annual renewals required. It is similar to citizenship except the holder cannot vote in Mexico and you cannot hold land in the "restricted zone", you still have to get a fideicomiso on your property.

You cannot submit an application for visa renewal more than 30 days prior to expiration of current visa. You must pick up your renewal within 90 days after it has been issued.

Citizenship is a different ballgame. Citizenship is not processed by the Immigration office. Citizenship is processed by a different Secritariat in Mexico City. You must hold a Inmigrante (FM2) visa for a minimum of two renewals! Six months after your second renewal (in other words two and a half years after initial application for Inmigrante (FM2) status) the holder can apply for citizenship. There is no restriction on days out of country.

(At this point, I said to my friend that this doesn't make sense! I said you are limited to 180 days in 5 years if you want to become a permanent resident but there are no restrictions for time out of country if you want to become a citizen! My friend smiled at me and said "do you want me to explain the rules or do you want me to explain logic? It is two different departments with two different sets of rules!")

Citizenship gives full privileges in Mexico including the right to own land in the "restricted zone" (no more fideicomisos), tax benefits when buying or selling property, voting, and all kinds of other things.

This is the way it was explained to me. I am sure other Nomads have received other and different explanations from other Immigration offices. I can't explain why. Take what I was told for what it is worth. Buena suerte.

SFandH - 9-3-2012 at 08:57 AM

Thanks for the info. I'm interested in what the requirements to become a citizen are, besides the previous visa requirements. Anybody have a good link to a Spanish or English website that spells it out?

oxxo - 9-3-2012 at 09:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SFandH
I'm interested in what the requirements to become a citizen are, besides the previous visa requirements. Anybody have a good link to a Spanish or English website that spells it out?


As it was explained to me.....the requirements are two and a half years with an Inmgrante visa and fill out the paperwork and pay fees in Mexico City. If you are over 60, tests for Spanish literacy and history are waived. I have a friend who was a permanent resident for 25 years and over 70 who received citizenship two years ago. She said she had to take no tests. Which was good for her because she speaks almost no Spanish after 25 years.

?pero, quien sabe?

I have a local friend who is a Mexican national who has walked other gringos through the citizenship process. She says she will fly to Mexico City with me and walk me through the process (visiting about 6 different government offices over a two day period) when and if I am ready to apply.

dtbushpilot - 9-3-2012 at 09:16 AM

Thanks for the update oxxo, check your u2u

David K - 9-3-2012 at 09:46 AM

Yes, well done oxxo!

shari - 9-3-2012 at 09:53 AM

SF&H...there is an excellent agent in DF who helped me with my citizenship after twice trying to get it...he has also helped everyone I know who became citizens and is a great guy and makes it very easy. He picks you up at the airport, you can stay in a nice suite he has in his house if you want for no extra charge, he does all the running around and you just go sign the papers and he takes you everywhere and gets your passport in a 2 day period...you have to go once to file the paperwork, and again to pick up your documents and passport. He is highly recommended....here is is contact info...

Gilberto Pineula
dialing from mexico... 045-555-529-8701 maybe bajablanca has his email or contact Alonso Lopez in La Paz who works with him here in baja sur and can set it all up for you too.

RnR - 9-3-2012 at 11:32 AM

Great Info! Thanks, Oxxo.

I was on track for citizenship on the five year program. (Four renewals on the FM2/Inmigrante visa) Oxxo's info just knocked two years+ off of this timeline. WoooHooo.

Let's take this one step further to what happens at the fideicomiso/citizenship interface. If property ownership is transferred to the "new" Mexican citizen and the fideicomiso is terminated, are capital gains taxes due on the property at the time of transfer??

And if so, at what rate?? And, which country is going to be standing in line with their hand out? (The USA, or Mexico, or BOTH????)

This seems to be the one of (if not) the primary reason for pursuing full Mexican citzenship. Anybody actually go through this process to full ownership of property as a Mexican citizen?

If not, maybe I'll have a definitive answer in about three years .....

Lee - 9-3-2012 at 11:35 AM

Maybe Gilberto has changed his attitude or policy, you have to speak at a conversational Spanish level with Gilberto in person, by phone, or he won't do business with you. Shari, has that changed?
Quote:
Originally posted by shari
SF&H...there is an excellent agent in DF who helped me with my citizenship after twice trying to get it...he has also helped everyone I know who became citizens and is a great guy and makes it very easy. He picks you up at the airport, you can stay in a nice suite he has in his house if you want for no extra charge, he does all the running around and you just go sign the papers and he takes you everywhere and gets your passport in a 2 day period...you have to go once to file the paperwork, and again to pick up your documents and passport. He is highly recommended....here is is contact info...

Gilberto Pineula
dialing from mexico... 045-555-529-8701 maybe bajablanca has his email or contact Alonso Lopez in La Paz who works with him here in baja sur and can set it all up for you too.

oxxo - 9-3-2012 at 12:28 PM

Evidently, the requirement is that to obtain citizenship, you must hold Inmigrante (FM2) status for 5 years (which means less than 180 days out of country).

But.......look what I just found in a Google search!

two years of residency if to the judgment of the Secretariat, she or he has performed or created outstanding works in a cultural, social, scientific, technical, artistic, sports or business area that benefit the nation, in which case, the foreigner is not required to have resided in the country for the number of years prescribed in the law;

Now this gets interesting! If an expediter can prove you provided "outstanding works" it looks like a two and a half window of opportunity does exist! I appears that a creative expediter can put together a package with some recommendations from local nationals about your "outstanding works" in Mexico and fast track your citizenship!

Again.......it is nice to have friends in high places!

Bill Collector - 9-3-2012 at 12:57 PM

We became Mexican Citizens 5 years ago. We removed our fideicomiso without any capital gains due on our property. The process took about 6 months to complete, it was easy. Our property taxes didn't increase, we thought it might but it didn't happen.

bajaguy - 9-3-2012 at 01:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by soulpatch
Great news.
My wife, the Spanish teacher, would be the logical choice to get her citizenship first.
Me, the Spanish learner, may be a bit behind her......
I wonder how THAT"s gonna work out.
Of course, we'll be living in Nayarit and there is probably a whole 'nother set of rules and regulations there but we will see once we are living there in December.





Frank............

two years of residency if to the judgment of the Secretariat, she or he has performed or created outstanding works in a cultural, social, scientific, technical, artistic, sports or business area that benefit the nation, in which case, the foreigner is not required to have resided in the country for the number of years prescribed in the law...........

I think you have the requsite skills, knowledge and ability (former employment history) to contribute significantly to your new home.......just get in good with the local FD's and the Jefes..........a little updated and ongoing training goes a long way!!!

elskel - 9-3-2012 at 01:56 PM

When working with Senior Gilberto Pineula as an agent, what type of costs are we talking about to get through the citizenship process.
Thanks Brian

bajajudy - 9-3-2012 at 02:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
SF&H...there is an excellent agent in DF who helped me with my citizenship after twice trying to get it...he has also helped everyone I know who became citizens and is a great guy and makes it very easy. He picks you up at the airport, you can stay in a nice suite he has in his house if you want for no extra charge, he does all the running around and you just go sign the papers and he takes you everywhere and gets your passport in a 2 day period...you have to go once to file the paperwork, and again to pick up your documents and passport. He is highly recommended....here is is contact info...

Gilberto Pineula
dialing from mexico... 045-555-529-8701 maybe bajablanca has his email or contact Alonso Lopez in La Paz who works with him here in baja sur and can set it all up for you too.


I have called this guy about 10 times, sent him at least as many emails and have never heard one word from him.

RnR - 9-3-2012 at 02:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Collector
We became Mexican Citizens 5 years ago. We removed our fideicomiso without any capital gains due on our property. The process took about 6 months to complete, it was easy. Our property taxes didn't increase, we thought it might but it didn't happen.


This is EXACTLY what I was hoping to hear!

A first hand account that debunks a persistent myth...

Thank you. :bounce:

BajaBlanca - 9-3-2012 at 02:37 PM

Gilberto will respond if you speak Spanish to him. He got in trouble for taking gringos to become CITIZENS and having them not at least communicate the very basics in English.

He takes 24 hours to answer emails but he does answer them. I had a wonderful experience with him - two days to start process. Six months later, another 2 days to finish the process. The passport is gotten as soon as you become a citizen and is charged separately and picked up the next day.

gpcpineda@hotmail.com

tel: 55 5529-8701
cel: 045 55 5419-6812

He is 100% on the up and up. The people in immigration told me that he is one of their preferred attorneys because he is so organized. I did take the history test - one can get the questions and study beforehand and if you are 60 plus, no test, but you must understand basic Spanish.

I cannot remember the cost and my husband (who remembers in detail) is not here at the moment....but we paid half upon starting the process and the balance at the end.

you need a CURP number
your immigration card or FM2
A letter saying you have commited no crimes (from your local delegado's office)
photographs
passport
original birth certificate - no exceptions
and if you have your husband's name added as your married name, a letter that states your married name is the same person as your single name. I had my Brazilian passport with my single name and went with that.

as a latin american citizen (CHile,Bolivia etc.) one only waits 2 years with FM2

If you are married to a Mexican or have Mexican kids, there is NO wait time.

[Edited on 9-3-2012 by BajaBlanca]

bajajudy - 9-3-2012 at 03:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaBlanca
Gilberto will respond if you speak Spanish to him. He got in trouble for taking gringos to become CITIZENS and having them not at least communicate the very basics in English.


All my communications have been in Spanish

shari - 9-3-2012 at 03:32 PM

You have to be married to a mexican for 2 years to qualify for citizenship.

the test consists of just a few questions...I think it was 5 and you had to get 3 right...the test questions are taken out of a list of 100 questions....I remember one of my questions wasnt on the cheat sheet...dang.

I dont know if gilberto speaks english...I only spoke spanish to him and at that time he didnt answer emails nor will he call you back...ever...you have to call him. It's a common mexican thing....never expect to get called back even if they say they will...you have to call them back.

elskel - 9-3-2012 at 10:26 PM

approximately, how much money are we talking about?
thanks brian

SDRonni - 9-4-2012 at 07:29 AM

Bill Collector: Was there a fee (and how much) to dissolve the fideicomiso and change title to you as an individual rather than through the trust?

Bill Collector - 9-4-2012 at 08:40 AM

The total cost to drop the fideicomiso was around $3,000 US dollars, that was having someone do all the work. We were told as Mexican Citizens we couldn't have a fideicomiso on our property.
Barb

Mula - 9-4-2012 at 08:59 AM

Wow, I am getting a fideicomison on our Lopez place and it is costing about $5,700 USD to set up and activate. I thought that was high. Another $3,000 to deactivate. Costly!

oxxo - 9-4-2012 at 09:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mula
Wow, I am getting a fideicomison on our Lopez place and it is costing about $5,700 USD to set up and activate. I thought that was high.


That sounds very reasonable to me compared to what others are paying.

BajaBlanca - 9-4-2012 at 09:27 AM

Gilberto answered all my emails - but it took 24 hours. I never called him as far as I can remember. He is slow about answering, no doubt about it.

oladulce - 9-4-2012 at 09:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaBlanca

original birth certificate - no exceptions
and if you have your husband's name added as your married name, a letter that states your married name is the same person as your single name.



Ohhhh, that sounds much more do-able. I misunderstood the last time this subject came up and I thought I'd have to change my US passport back to my maiden name to apply for Mexican citizenship which would have been a nightmare when all other forms of ID were in my married name- nothing would match.

Our goal has been Inmigrado status because we thought you were relieved of Mex capital gains taxes at that level. If citizenship is required, we'll have to rethink our goals after a few more Inmigrante renewals.

RnR - 9-4-2012 at 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Collector
The total cost to drop the fideicomiso was around $3,000 US dollars, that was having someone do all the work. We were told as Mexican Citizens we couldn't have a fideicomiso on our property.
Barb


Sounds about right.

$500 to the bank as a termination fee. Most fideicomisos contain this clause.

$1,500 to a notary to prepare and record a new deed, (escritura)

Some transfer fees to the government (2%) because this is an actual property transfer from one owner (the bank) to another (you).

Miscellaneous costs/fees, especially if you have an agent do all the legwork for you.

Looks like it would pay off in about six years by not having to pay the annual fideicomiso fees to the bank.

And, minimal (or none) capital gains taxes when the property is actually sold.

P.S. - Just guessing at the fee structure, every situation will probably be different..... :?:

Bill Collector - 9-4-2012 at 05:14 PM

Interesting we didn't need birth certifccates, nor was there a problem with being married. We did apply in La Paz for citizenship. We sold property when we had Inmigrado and was charged capital gains.
Guess its just who you talk with.

bajalorena - 9-4-2012 at 05:56 PM

When we went from fideicomiso to escritura, the notario wanted to charge us the 2% transfer fee (or acquisition fee), and we objected. The tranfer was not from bank to us, it was us to us. This was the first he had done, so he looked into it and we were correct.
I also can recommend Gilberto, he was great when I became a citizen in 2005.

oladulce - 9-4-2012 at 06:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Collector
... We sold property when we had Inmigrado and was charged capital gains.
Guess its just who you talk with.


Thanks for sharing that firsthand experience Bill Collector. It makes more sense that you'd have to have citizenship to be free from capital gains tax I guess. But I was sure hoping the Inmigrado information was correct, dang! Looks like there's going to be a big change in our future immigration plans cause our focus is the capital gains tax issue.