BajaNomad - Going Vegan....

Going Vegan....

Pages: 1 2

EnsenadaDr - 9-22-2012 at 09:15 AM

Vegan is the new craze hitting the world by storm. The ideas sound promising. No fat, no cholesterol. Which means eliminating most meat, fish, chicken, etc. But there are some dangerous ideas with going vegan. One of these is to eat 2000-3000 calories a day. For most of the aging generation, eating that amount of calories without vigorous exercise would cause weight gain. Another mantra: Eat 30 bananas a day. For patients with kidney problems, this would cause serious problems. For Diabetics, it would be enough to send you to the hospital.

Yes, certainly, eating salads, and cutting down on animal fats is a good thing. But most vegans need to take some serious classes in biochemistry. What happens if you overload the body with carbohydrates and calories? If the carbs and calories are not metabolized and burned off, they will convert inside your body to the word most dreaded by vegans: FAT. So, instead of lumping everyone in one category, each person needs to use their scale and glucose meter, if diabetic. If your insulin needs go up with your diet, or weight increases, then changes must be made. Yes certainly a salad in place of a carb-laden meal is a good thing, or eating one or two pieces of fruit in place of a greasy omelette and stack of pancakes with butter and syrup would be wise. An early morning walk or exercise that challenges the individual's cardiovascular system will help build collateral circulation. Exercise is extremely beneficial, and if you have joint or arthritic problems, keep moving any way you can, and lift small weights to increase muscle strength and bone density (2.5 to 5 lbs). As Benjamin Franklin said, "Do all things in moderation, including moderation."

SFandH - 9-22-2012 at 09:42 AM

There are no calorie requirements associated with veganism. The only dietary rule is that you only eat plants and food products made from plants. No animals or animal products, including dairy, zero, zilch, nada. That includes leather/fur clothing, leather furniture, etc.

The idea is to extend what we call human rights to all animals. Therefore don't kill and eat them. There are other behaviors that vegans avoid or want stopped, but eating animals is the main one.

Eating 30 bananas a day, like you said, is a very stupid thing to do.

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by SFandH]

DavidE - 9-22-2012 at 09:47 AM

I love to read so-called "compelling" articles about what the human body "must have". Most articles are linked to promotions for massive doses of everything from mega vitamins to weird fungi.

(You buy something and use it according to label directions and it does nothing) This is what you're going to hear from the fanatics...

Didn't take enough
Have to take it longer
What! You can't take it in powder form, it has to be liquid
Yuk the stuff you took is artificial, you have to get the real stuff from the ranch in Mozambique.
If they don't pick the berries when they're fully ripe it's next to useless.

Don't listen to stupid people it has to be kept (a) In the refrigerator (b) freezer (c) in the cupboard (d) only in it's original container (d) they're all nuts, it has to be kept wrapped in the leaves of the plant

You cannot prepare it with a machine mixer it destroys the molecules, use bamboo ideally
Extract of Krabofabbum has to be distilled only on nights of the full moon in autumn. No wonder it didn't work for you.

Early hominids had access to Feebum Rastofranitz in Africa. They gorged on it. That's why the human body cries out for Feebum Rastorfanitz, and everyone is sick these days. 30 day supply $129.95 + shipping and handling.

It has to be taken with the juice of 6 lemons.

Didn't they tell you about the chant you have to use?

Now for some serious information. Many so-called natural remedies sold in Mexico are anything but natural. One such "natural" supplement contains the prescription medication Voltaren, a steriod, and a prescription muscle relaxer. The USA FDA just banned its importation into the USA and pressured Mexico to treat it as an SSA class IV medication. I "trust" natural herbs, but I realize that many of them do not get along with many types of prescription medications. Grapefruit and grapefruit juice is strictly contraindicated with many types of prescription medications sold in the USA. Unfortunately many HMO doctors are rushed these days and scribble out an Rx without discussing it with a patient. This leaves only a pharmacist as the sole "safety net" to inform a person a medication may have side effects and drug interactions.

Mexican MD's are not yet clued into the fact that many people from north of the border swallow enormous amounts of vitamins, minerals and supplements. Therefore it seldom dawns on them to breach the subject when prescribing a medication.

"I take lots and lots of vitamin C. I guarantee you, that when I catch a cold, it stands little chance of developing scurvy"

bajaguy - 9-22-2012 at 09:52 AM

If humans were ment to be vegans, they would have a digestive system like bovines and not have Canine/Cuspid teeth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tviyAIS9c_U

mes1952 - 9-22-2012 at 09:52 AM

Actually the vegan movement has been going on for several years...and the new movement is paleo.
As a strict vegetarian for 20+ years, I've observed many times that many time both vegans and vegetarians substitute high calorie foods such as breads and sugars for a more balanced diet and consequently they are overweight. It's shocking to me to see someone who says they are one of the above and they are overweight.
Calories are calories and if you eat the right balance of calories regardless of your diet you will be healthy. And I've had NO problem eating both vegan and vegetarian meal shere in Mexico...you just need to be more creative. Since Mexican food is so diverse there are endless ways to eat a non-meat/no flesh diet.

SFandH - 9-22-2012 at 09:57 AM

Not just in Mexico, anywhere. Go into a US supermarket and take a good look at the produce section, they're huge and beautiful. The colors, shapes, sizes, and of course the flavors.

Then go to the meat section and look at the dead animal parts, quite gross actually, especially in Mexico.

EnsenadaDr - 9-22-2012 at 10:00 AM

Great feedback, love the comments, maybe some low fat, vegetable Mexican recipes could be shared?

DENNIS - 9-22-2012 at 10:01 AM

This may be the most non-Baja topic I've ever seen here in the land of lard cooked fish tacos.

SFandH - 9-22-2012 at 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Great feedback, love the comments, maybe some low fat, vegetable Mexican recipes could be shared?

Sabritas with Tecate Light!! My favorite Mexican vegan snack. :tumble:

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by SFandH]

ncampion - 9-22-2012 at 10:05 AM

Nothing better than a good steak........and a Lipitor chaser.

Beef Tip Fajitas

bajaguy - 9-22-2012 at 10:05 AM

This is a hoot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3qHZ-vxoVo

(OK, it has tortillas and fajitas - Baja related)

SFandH - 9-22-2012 at 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
This may be the most non-Baja topic I've ever seen here in the land of lard cooked fish tacos.

That's true, she started it in the off-topic section too. Being a vegan, I'm interested in sharing what I know about it.

I'm all for moving it to off-topic.

Ateo - 9-22-2012 at 10:08 AM

I prefer 70 bananas per day.

DENNIS - 9-22-2012 at 10:11 AM

Can you deep fry a banana? Are they good with cheese sauce?

willardguy - 9-22-2012 at 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
I prefer 70 bananas per day.

thats alot of daiquiris, but count me in! :bounce:

Lard fried tacos...

EnsenadaDr - 9-22-2012 at 10:19 AM

Why don't we just let Americans continue to go out in Baja everyday and eat huevos, refried beans all cooked in Manteca and then wonder why the incidence of heart disease and stroke is so prevalent in Mexico. Diabetes is #1 in Mexico as well. This subject is very pertinent to Americans and others living in Mexico. Prevention is more important than the treatment after the fact.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
This may be the most non-Baja topic I've ever seen here in the land of lard cooked fish tacos.

bajaguy - 9-22-2012 at 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Why don't we just let Americans continue to go out in Baja everyday and eat huevos, refried beans all cooked in Manteca and then wonder why the incidence of heart disease and stroke is so prevalent in Mexico. Diabetes is #1 in Mexico as well. This subject is very pertinent to Americans and others living in Mexico. Prevention is more important than the treatment after the fact.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
This may be the most non-Baja topic I've ever seen here in the land of lard cooked fish tacos.

Diabetes is also a big problem in Hawaii........is it diet or heredity???

Platanos Machos Fritos And Gravy

DavidE - 9-22-2012 at 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Can you deep fry a banana? Are they good with cheese sauce?

Fry the macho bananas in lard until they're a nice golden brown. Whip up some gravy with lots of bacon bits just like you would with grits. Pour it all over the banana slices.

Handy accessories...

Sea salt
Pepper
Onion salt
kechup
A-1 Sauce
Defibrillator

EnsenadaDr - 9-22-2012 at 10:35 AM

As far as the Hawaiians go, their diet is very similar to the Mexicans. They eat alot of rice and beans, and alot of fat. I like foods as well that aren't good for you, and they do taste good. But we can try everyday to find alternative ways of eating good in Mexico. There is, as S and F wrote, a huge produce section in most supermarkets, and you can make beans without adding bacon fat and manteca, which are animal proteins. We are in Mexico to have fun, and eat and enjoy ourselves, but we all want to live to enjoy it.

EnsenadaDr - 9-22-2012 at 10:39 AM

I say if you can post about San Diego Chargers Games in On Topic, then tips about eating good in Mexico can be posted here as well. Yes I did start off with my topic in Off Topic, but it certainly can be applied to eating in Mexico as well. And Dennis, why are you of all people, making fun of me here? You should be the last one.

SFandH - 9-22-2012 at 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
I have friends that are vegan... certainly takes discipline to achieve a proper diet.
I just can't give up fish, though... not happening.

Achieving a "proper diet" is much more difficult when you eat dead animal flesh, salivary glands, lymph nodes, the remnants of hen periods, and drink secretions from cow udders.

Fish might be less toxic, but stay away from farmed fish and consider mercury levels and the quality of the water they lived in.

Eating just plants is a very easy thing to do. When I'm tempted by a cheeseburger, they taste great, I think of the cruelty, the suffering, the crying, the screaming, the SLAUGHTER. The desire goes away.

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by SFandH]

DENNIS - 9-22-2012 at 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
And Dennis, why are you of all people, making fun of me here? You should be the last one.

Hypersensitive boolcrap from one who would kill for a steak dinner at Sano's.

EnsenadaDr - 9-22-2012 at 10:52 AM

I don't think I would kill for a steak at Sano's, I can afford my own steaks because certain people were too cheap to ever take me there. Putting that aside, I have eaten one steak in the past three weeks, and I am trying to change my eating habits. No one is perfect. I would like to get ideas from people here on healthy eating with an emphasis on Mexican cooking. Maybe you don't care, but I do. In fact, I wanted others' opinions of the vegan diet.

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
And Dennis, why are you of all people, making fun of me here? You should be the last one.

Hypersensitive boolcrap from one who would kill for a steak dinner at Sano's.

DavidE - 9-22-2012 at 10:54 AM

Nurse a gator back to health and what does he do......

:lol:

:lol

EXACTLY DAVID...you hit the nail on the head!!

EnsenadaDr - 9-22-2012 at 11:00 AM

NUFF SAID!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Nurse a gator back to health and what does he do......

:lol:

:lol

DavidT - 9-22-2012 at 11:05 AM

30 bananas a day, that's a lot of peeling. This might help.

http://www.austriantimes.at/news/General_News/2012-09-19/442...

Skipjack Joe - 9-22-2012 at 11:07 AM

As someone who just had his gallbladder removed I'm interested in this subject. I would think ceviche is one of the best and easily available meals in baja. You get lots of protein from fish and vitamins and minerals from vegetables. And virtually no fat. Trouble is it's too acidic as everyday food.

Most baja restaurant food is really high in fat but that's true up here as well. Fat just tastes good.

EnsenadaDr - 9-22-2012 at 11:12 AM

Ceviche is wonderful. Some people put oil in it, which would be the only source of empty calories. I was wondering if anyone had some variations of some Mexican meals that were low fat. For instance, I love Chile rellenos, I try to avoid the cheese and take most of the breading off when eating them.

SFandH - 9-22-2012 at 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
I have friends that are vegan... certainly takes discipline to achieve a proper diet.
I just can't give up fish, though... not happening.

Easy for most. My family has some serious nut and fruit allergies as well as soy.

We eat meat, fish and tons of fruit and vegetables.
We also strive to eat as close to 100% organic as possible.... meats, everything....
Sheesh, tonight we'll be eating wild caught jurel and albacore tacos in an all organic, homemade mayonnaise/Italian dressing marinade with homemade organic beans and the same with an all organic Spanish rice...
I think that beats the hell out of GMO soy turkey.
I have these same vegan friends that don't even know the sources of all their soy protein, they have no idea if what they is is GMO, clueless in other words... they've switched one poison for another.
:cool:

Yes, but like I said, the main objective of veganism is animal rights, not diet. You achieve being a vegan, mainly, by not eating animals. I would be a vegan even if there were no health benefits. The real debate is the extension of human rights to all animals, which has been going on for a long time. See my quotes below.

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by SFandH]

EnsenadaDr - 9-22-2012 at 11:26 AM

Sorry but I have to disagree. Bill Clinton is doing it because he had to have another angioplasty after bypass surgery. I have seen documentaries that my son sent me on people with diabetes wanting a cure so they start eating vegan. I hear even plants scream when you cut them.

SFandH - 9-22-2012 at 11:29 AM

Well, you're new to veganism. Many people are vegan because of the healthful side-effects. The main objective of the vegan movement is animal rights.

SFandH - 9-22-2012 at 11:39 AM

Bill Clinton is on a unique diet, largely promoted by Dr Esselstyn at the Cleveland Clinic. It eliminates ALL fats, even vegetable oils. Plus he eats a protein powder. I have no idea about that stuff.

Dr. Esselstyn claims to have proved he can reverse heart disease with his diet. He first started many years ago at the Cleveland Clinic, a highly respected hospital, with patients the cardiologists had written off as hopelessly sick with heart disease. He reversed the disease and kept them alive.

deportes - 9-22-2012 at 11:41 AM

Great post but it's all wrong!

Listen to Gary Taubes or get the book Why we get fat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTUspjZG-wc

Saturated fat is not the problem is the tortillas and grains!

No disrespect to doctors, how many semesters of nutrition do they get in med school.

Pill pushing is considered medicine, lipitor, zantac, for the rest of your life, really! Any side effects.

Here is a funny comparison.

http://blisstree.com/look/nigella-lawson-karan-diwan-gillian...

GL

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by deportes]

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by deportes]

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by deportes]

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by deportes]

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by deportes]

gnukid - 9-22-2012 at 11:46 AM

Some thoughts from a non-expert:

Vegetarians need to understand where their protein and complete nutrition is coming from and build a complex diet to meet their needs. Interestingly, spirulina is a high protein algae that has a long history in Mexico City and Lake Texcoco, and is an excellent source of protein as a nutritional supplement for vegetarians. Of course supplements may be less likely to be processed efficiently by your body as whole foods, so one must manage the steps or stages of diet to increase benefits.

For example, nowadays everyone is saying you should drink lots of water, divide your body weight in lbs in half and times that by ounces, 200lbs = 100 ounces of water daily. But if you drink too much water while eating you might be changing the acidity of your stomach and are less able to process nutrition.

It's actually quite difficult to build a complete vegetarian diet from a typical grocery store, and more often requires huge effort to source the broad diet required to meet nutritional requirements.

On a similar note, candida intestinal bacteria overgrowth is apparently a problem for some people whose diet may have too much wheat, sugar, soy, beer and coffee among other things. For those with acid reflux issues, you might check into intestinal candidiasis and the candida diet, to reduce factors that create an environment for yeast to overproduce.

http://www.functionalmedicine.org/.../ifm_Can_Diet_090203.pd...

Also vegans and raw food enthusiasts need to be aware of risk of parasites with eating unwashed fresh food.

For vegetarians, vegans, or anyone, it important to keep a food diary and analyze your nutrition and look for ways to have a balanced and complete diet. One product I found for keeping a food diary is http://www.myfitnesspal.com/ which is free, and there are others, to track diet, exercise, calories and nutrition.

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by gnukid]

redmesa - 9-22-2012 at 11:58 AM

I have been a partial vegetarian for many years. It was a decision for ethical and health reasons. What I have learned is that you can not cook or eat the same foods as you did as a flesh eater. We eat organic tofu, beans, nuts, grains, veggies, fruit, fish and lots and lots of spices. I do not like eating fish or any other living creatures but it is unavoidable at times. Anyone who has been to a feed lot or an abattoir and not been seriously affected by the suffering, fear and death of the animals is lacking in human emotions.

Lindalou - 9-22-2012 at 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
If humans were ment to be vegans, they would have a digestive system like bovines and not have Canine/Cuspid teeth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tviyAIS9c_U

too funny, the salon is having beef tips for steak night this month, so this film fits and makes you laugh! :spingrin:

Paulina - 9-22-2012 at 12:12 PM

I went Paleo on May 1st and have lost 50lbs and have maintained that loss. It's not that difficult to do in Baja. Tacos Recreo in Maneadero is very understanding of my new way of eating. They see me coming with my own bowl and fork and they fix me right up. Granted, its not grass fed beef, but they do cut the grasa off for me. The guac is sin mayonesa. No beans as they are legumes. I got used to missing the tortillas as I don't miss the gut bomb feeling afterwards. Man, my mouth is watering as I type.

Here's our Paleo scallops from last summer. Fresh from the sea that day, olive oil, cilantro and lime. (more drooling)

I'm working on our Paleo Thanksgiving list for Ensenada now.

P>*)))>{

deportes - 9-22-2012 at 12:15 PM

Paulina, that looks estupendo!

Thank you Paulina.

EnsenadaDr - 9-22-2012 at 12:16 PM

Very interesting diet, never heard of it before. My son tries to emphasize the fact that first man never ate meat, which this diet disputes after I researched it. Thanks for the info!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Paulina
I went Paleo on May 1st and have lost 50lbs and have maintained that loss. It's not that difficult to do in Baja. Tacos Recreo in Maneadero is very understanding of my new way of eating. They see me coming with my own bowl and fork and they fix me right up. Granted, its not grass fed beef, but they do cut the grasa off for me. The guac is sin mayonesa. No beans as they are legumes. I got used to missing the tortillas as I don't miss the gut bomb feeling afterwards. Man, my mouth is watering as I type.

Here's our Paleo scallops from last summer. Fresh from the sea that day, olive oil, cilantro and lime. (more drooling)

I'm working on our Paleo Thanksgiving list for Ensenada now.

P>*)))>{

YEAH! ANIMAL RIGHTS!

DavidE - 9-22-2012 at 12:18 PM

MAN IS SUCH A *BEAST* USING ELECTRIC HAMMERS AND HIGH TECHNOLOGY TO SLAUGHTER POOR LITTLE DEFENSELESS, INNOCENT DOE EYED ANIMALS! THEY SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES! IN CONTRAST NATURE IS "NATURAL" THEREFORE "KINDER AND MORE GENTLE.

"PASS THE @#$%^&^%!! CARROTS PLEASE

deportes - 9-22-2012 at 12:25 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEqhar40TVw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&...

Lets get the science behind it.

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by deportes]

Fascinating, thanks!!

EnsenadaDr - 9-22-2012 at 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by deportes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEqhar40TVw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&...

Lets get the science behind it.

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by deportes]

Cisco - 9-22-2012 at 12:44 PM

Janene:

Don't recall if I posted this here or not. Last week the Mamaslatinas site had a really good selection of vegetarian Mexican receipes.

Might check them out.

DavidE - 9-22-2012 at 01:07 PM

Slice chayote into 3/16" discs .Arrange on sheet of aluminum foil
Sprinkle grated cheese over the slices. Add minced garlic and diced tomato
Wrap everything in the aluminum foil
Place in deep pan. cover and light off a low fire. Also works great on a barbecue.
The cheese has cholesterol but oh well you can't have everything...

DENNIS - 9-22-2012 at 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paulina
I went Paleo on May 1st and have lost 50lbs and have maintained that loss.

WOW....you really have shed some kilos. Lookin' good.

BajaBlanca - 9-22-2012 at 01:26 PM

we have a farmer friend who stated that eating cows is OK since they only eat grass. He says they are vegan. He really isn't wrong.

Caution with fads and fats

windgrrl - 9-22-2012 at 01:37 PM

You can be a fat vegan (or vegetarian). Sources of protein for vegans include nuts and seeds and plant-based oils give the food good taste. These food are nutritious and calorie-dense. There is also good evidence that although we have that nice set of choppers, it is because we are omnivorous by nature. About 80% of the original human hunter-gather diet was plant-based. And it was gathered by women. Arriba las mujeres! Anyway - it seems that hunting was arduous, dangerous and often unsuccessful, so folks needed something to last in between. Some think today's generation is are fat because humans have the capacity to eat as much as possible to store up fat for the times of famine. Humans are pretty adaptable! As for carbohydrate, another plant-based food source, it is needed along with protein and vegetables. Anyone taller than their grandparents or parents were? It because of access to more foods of all kinds in quantity.

30 bananas seems absurd unless one is not going to see food again for a while. Everything in moderation.

[Edited on 9-22-2012 by windgrrl]

BillP - 9-22-2012 at 02:35 PM

Vegetables are what food eats!

elizabeth - 9-22-2012 at 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
we have a farmer friend who stated that eating cows is OK since they only eat grass. He says they are vegan. He really isn't wrong.

He's absolutely right! I like pasture raised grass fed beef...what I don't want to eat is feed lot, grain fed, antibiotic and hormone laced inhumanely killed beef.

SFandH - 9-22-2012 at 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
we have a farmer friend who stated that eating cows is OK since they only eat grass. He says they are vegan. He really isn't wrong.

He's absolutely right! I like pasture raised grass fed beef...what I don't want to eat is feed lot, grain fed, antibiotic and hormone laced inhumanely killed beef.

Please describe humane killing.

BillP - 9-22-2012 at 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
we have a farmer friend who stated that eating cows is OK since they only eat grass. He says they are vegan. He really isn't wrong.

He's absolutely right! I like pasture raised grass fed beef...what I don't want to eat is feed lot, grain fed, antibiotic and hormone laced inhumanely killed beef.

Please describe humane killing.

.357 flat nosed wadcutter point blank to the brain, death is instant. The Hogs get a .38.

elizabeth - 9-22-2012 at 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaBlanca
we have a farmer friend who stated that eating cows is OK since they only eat grass. He says they are vegan. He really isn't wrong.

He's absolutely right! I like pasture raised grass fed beef...what I don't want to eat is feed lot, grain fed, antibiotic and hormone laced inhumanely killed beef.

Please describe humane killing.

While I certainly respect your position, I am not there and I don't suppose that I could ever describe it in a way that would satisfy you. I can describe it in a way that satisfies me. I am an omnivore, although meat is a very small part of my diet.

While I have friends who disagree, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with raising animals for food providing that they have a life that is free of undue confinement and stress and that they are allowed to have a diet that is natural to them.

The killing of beef cattle that I have owned and eaten was done while they were peacefully grazing...one bullet to the back of the head. An instant death. No fearful stressful trips to a slaughter house.

bajaguy - 9-22-2012 at 08:20 PM

Maybe having their throat ripped out by a coyote is more humane.........

shari - 9-22-2012 at 09:29 PM

I was a vegetarian for many years and went vegan for a few years and loved it. I had alot of vegan amigos and NONE were overweight...all were the picture of health and very fit. I really loved eating vegan....lots of grains, nuts, homemade bread, fruit and veggies and of course soy products...I was homesteading with no stores close by so it was a great way to live....very healthy and I felt fantastic. But I missed fish and seafood too much to continue for long.

monoloco - 9-22-2012 at 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Can you deep fry a banana? Are they good with cheese sauce?

I am currently here in Nicaragua and you pretty much get tostones with every meal.

wiltonh - 9-23-2012 at 12:00 AM

I have read this thread with interest. My father was a doctor and he decided that a vegetarian diet was best for us. I was raised a vegetarian and we did use milk and some eggs. Again it was done for health reasons. He had high cholesterol and he controlled it with diet. It was as much about what he did eat as it was about what he did not eat. Over time he found certain things that greatly reduced his cholesterol.

I well remember hiking to the bottom of the Grand Canyon where my father had rented a room and purchased some meals. We could have hauled our meals down in our packs but he wanted to spare us the extra weight. The only option available was a steak. We ate it because after hiking 12 miles we were hungry and that was all there was to eat.

As a kid, we did use some soy products but most of them have a high fat content so I have learned to cook with out them. Over the years I have cut out most milk and eggs but they are included in many baked goods so it is hard to completely remove them from your diet.

While in Mexico, we normally cook most of our own meals. It is easy to control what you eat that way. The real issue comes when someone invites you to eat out. In the past I used to order dishes that included a lot of cheese instead of meat. After doing some research, I feel that fresh fish is probably better than all that cheese. I have found that if you ask, many places will substitute fish for the cheese in a Chile relleno.

I have found that I can loose weight if I have a salad for one meal per day. If you go light on the dressing, there are not that many calories and it does work. I happen to prefer salsa as my dressing which has lots of taste and not many calories. It then becomes a type of taco salad where you control ingredients. Mine normally include avocado, onion, lettuce and sometimes beans. If you want to make it richer, you can put a hand full of corn chips on the bottom.

A second version of the salad uses cabbage cut up fine, avocado, tomato, cilantro, salt and lime. My wife speaks Spanish and she got this from a cook in a taco stand in Los Barriles. They were using it as a taco filling but it works as a salad also.

The term Vegan has been used in many ways and trying to define it now is hard. I much prefer to say that I live mostly on a plant based diet. That cuts the confusion.

I always include the “mostly” because a little ice cream seems to slips in once in a while.

[Edited on 9-23-2012 by wiltonh]

acadist - 9-23-2012 at 06:35 AM

I am a member of PETA: PEOPLE who EAT TASTY ANIMALS :tumble:

mes1952 - 9-23-2012 at 08:56 AM

Produce including vegetable and fruits are much cheaper here in Mexico than in the U.S. and do not have chemicals. If you have ever read a produce box which has been shipped from anywhere in the world including Mexico and Chile to the U.S. you will find that most contain a wax substance and other chemicals for preservation; I discovered this when working at SeaWorld in the kitchen and was somewhat shocked although I knew this was the case.
I find recipes on the web rather than in books. Two sites I use often including www.tastespotting.com and www.foodbuzz.com
I make all of my dogs food from scratch (yes they eat meat) and use the web for recipes for them as well. Sometimes I use a human recipe and adjust it for a dog. Also the meat here is much better as it does not contain the multitude of preservatives and chemicals as in the U.S. The only meat I buy (for my dogs) in the U.S. is turkey and lamb which are difficult to find at times here in Rosarito and Tijuana.

EnsenadaDr - 9-23-2012 at 09:11 AM

then what are those planes that fly over the vegetable fields in Maneadero spraying on the crops?

DavidE - 9-23-2012 at 09:26 AM

Whoa Hoss, serious depressing news for you about chemicals and México.

Unless you are fortunate enough to shop organic tiendas or have a neighbor with an organic garden, most agrarian businesses in México use lots and lots and lots of insecticides, herbicides and fungicides, some of which are not approved for use in or by the USA or Canada.

Decades ago when the "Mexican farmers cannot afford to use pesticides" story was created, it was somewhat true. Not Any More.

Everything from corn, to mangoes are sprayed, repeatedly during each crop. My mango orchard has to get treated twice with fungicide or I would have about 3% of the crop and not be able to pay the water never mind the labor to take care of the trees. Next time you pass through an ag area like San Quintín or Cd. Constitución, look out the side window of your vehicle and you will see trailered plastic reservoirs pulled by tractors, that hold as much as a thousand gallons of chemical mix.

I suspect many commercial dairies in México use:

Recombinant bovine growth hormone. Monsanto obtained approval to market rBGH (known by the trade name Posilac), and the hormone is shipped to México by the truck load. It is administered by injection to each cow.

Contrary to what many Americans believe the term organico is known to many Méxicanos. Many shoppers much prefer organic produce and will choose it over treated produce if they can afford to do so.

Eli - 9-23-2012 at 11:21 AM

Thanks for this post Paulina, after I read it I googled Paleo, and as I am very interested in different forms of eating, I found what I read very intriguing.
I have not delved to deep into the subject, just skimmed it a bit, but am assuming that honey is not included in this diet? What about salt? Cacao? Coffee? What about teas? Only thing you eat is veges, fruit, nuts and meat, fish, poultry and eggs, correct?
Although I have not completly eliminated them from my diet, honey, salt, coffee, (although I did cut coffee out for 3 months this summer), minimal whole grains, corn tortillas, soy, rice, oats and goat cheese & yogurt still play a small part in my diet.
On the other hand, I have pretty much cut out beef & pork, (have had 3 servings in the last 4 months), and eat minimal eggs as I find them difficult to digest. Chicken, turkey and fish, I consume a few times a week. At least 70% of my diet is just veges and fruit, and I feel much better for it.
Anyway, after what I read, I am considering the Paleo diet for a month when I go home to Baja, it would easier to do this at home as it is pretty much how my daughter eats anyway and we share our main meal often. It would be interesting to see if I could digest meat if I don't consume grains and dairy.
No way while I am in Oaxaca, although I am still pretty careful, (digestion issues have me on a short chain), I have stepped off my diet a bit I while I am here; last chance at really good corn tortillas, and a few other goodies like at least one tlayuda with acento and tasajo. Hot chocolate with pan de llema, I had my Chili in Nogada fix.

Anyway, as I like to eat so much, I always find it a very interesting subject.

Quote:

Here's our Paleo scallops from last summer. Fresh from the sea that day, olive oil, cilantro and lime. (more drooling)

I'm working on our Paleo Thanksgiving list for Ensenada now.

P>*)))>{

Paulina - 9-23-2012 at 11:48 AM

Eli, check your u2u.

P>*)))>{

DavidE - 9-23-2012 at 12:06 PM

In My Most Humble Opinion

Probably the most "healthful" thing a person can do is research your family tree and find out for certain what hereditary health problems are common on one or both sides of your family. Diabetes, autoimmune diseases, cardiovascular diseases are passed on to far too many descendants to ignore. One of the responsibilities of being a parent is to clearly (meaning without fail) educate adult children about the importance of knowing and understanding pervasive hereditary disease in your family.

Do you know those questionnaires doctors have you fill out on your first appointment? They are looking for a whole host of family oriented health problems that are hereditary. If seemingly "everyone" in your family tree had type 2 diabetes, it is crucial to not gain weight. Hypertension? Be aware of it as you keep dumping loads of salt on a mashed potato. Even the incidence of Alzheimer's Disease seems to have deep roots in hereditary passage. If I had used my intelligence better when I was younger I would NOT HAVE relied on doctors to keep me healthy. Too many MD's treat symptoms and not causes.

Is a vegan diet "more healthy" than a "3-squares*" diet using organic pesticide free foods? I believe hereditary factors are the key. Some folks (myself included thankfully) are cholesterol problem free. Others cannot look at a package of butter or flat of eggs without having their LDL soar to high heaven. It is hereditary.

*A sensible diet, not a 32 oz T-Bone topped with eggs and french fries, and pie a-la-mode. A sensible diet includes lots of fruit and vegetables. If I want sweet I turn to "Stevia" not sugar.

Many vegetarians choose that diet because the thought of eating meat is repulsive to them. But then all vegetarians are not alike. Some even go so far as to abhor the very thought of drinking milk. Maybe their infant formula was warmed soy milk with a nipple.

windgrrl - 9-23-2012 at 12:17 PM

Became a vegetarian after touring a state of the art slaughterhouse with humane killing procedures. My impression was that the place was not very humane for man or beast. Those curious about the dynamics of food supply my find interesting reading in "Diet for a Small Planet" and "Fast Food Nation."

luv2fish - 9-23-2012 at 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by windgrrl
Became a vegetarian after touring a state of the art slaughterhouse with humane killing procedures. My impression was that the place was not very humane for man or beast. Those curious about the dynamics of food supply my find interesting reading in "Diet for a Small Planet" and "Fast Food Nation."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMhuXdS0e3I

[Edited on 9-23-2012 by luv2fish]

DavidE - 9-23-2012 at 12:36 PM

Out of curiosity, por favor windgrrl, I am wondering why you would go tour a slaughterhouse? Surely it was not for curiosity¿?¿?

willardguy - 9-23-2012 at 12:48 PM

out of curiosity, how do you type an upside down question mark?

DENNIS - 9-23-2012 at 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by willardguy
out of curiosity, how do you type an upside down question mark?

I bought a new computer from Office Depot in Ensenada and it came with a Mexican keyboard and had tildes...ñ...and everything else.
I'm sure you can find one in ALT CODES. Google that if necessary.

SFandH - 9-23-2012 at 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Some even go so far as to abhor the very thought of drinking milk. Maybe their infant formula was warmed soy milk with a nipple.

From a vegan's point of view milk is probably the worst when considering animal rights. First the cows are raped, usually by a machine, to make them pregnant. Then they are milked endlessly by another machine. They are also fed all sorts of chemicals to boost milk production. Antibiotics too because the constant milking very often causes infections. There are federal limits for the amount of puss milk can contain. It all does.

When the cows give birth their babies are taken from them. They wail for days when this happens, as any mother would. A friend of mine visited a dairy farm in Michigan and listened to the crys. He said it was horrible and heartbreaking.

Then when the milk production stops they are raped again and the cycle repeats. When they get too old after years of this torture they are killed and eaten.

And no other animal drinks milk after it is weaned. It is totally unnecessary.

The dairy industry is brutal.

[Edited on 9-23-2012 by SFandH]

windgrrl - 9-23-2012 at 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Out of curiosity, por favor windgrrl, I am wondering why you would go tour a slaughterhouse? Surely it was not for curiosity¿?¿?

Went twice. First was in the 70s for our Grade 8 Ag class a trip to a small local plant. Got hit in the head with a bone chip from the skull of the next cow in the chute that was plugged by a pistol. It looked like hard work, then. My relative was a "shrouder".

Next time was in the 90s for college - a community health experience with an occupational health nurse at a large multi-national plant. She had worked very hard to reduce employee injury. The kill floor was pretty much the same as the first, except it look more like the loading bay from Aliens. Cattle went up 2 stories on a converor belt, automatic air gun to the head, the hide is whipped off by some kind of rolling winch, then electrification of the carcass and off to the folks with electric knives flying through the room on hydraulic platforms. 10,000 workers/year recruited from around the world. Takes about 3 months to strip a person's spirit away at 4,700 cattle per day. The beef is then distributed world-wide.

It's interesting to see how stuff we eat gets from the field to the shelf.

[Edited on 9-23-2012 by windgrrl]

wiltonh - 9-23-2012 at 01:22 PM

My father who was a doctor was interviewing a patient some years ago. The guy volunteered that he was a vegetarian. My dad asked why? His answer was, "I am a meat plant inspector".

DavidE - 9-23-2012 at 01:56 PM

Myself, one too many trips down I-5 past the Harris Ranch feed lot and slaughterhouse, really reduced my beef (all kinds of other meat as well) intake. I do like the byproduct of hamburger and steak creation on my garden though! The last time I had cantaloupe grow this fast, I end up with 8 pound melons that a person could smell from a hundred feet away as they ripened.

I have been feeding (possibly a family of) chipmunks from a small bag of Purina hi-protein dog food. They are no longer scrawny and scroungy looking. I just hope I am not promulgating population explosion 101.

McRV6A - 9-23-2012 at 02:04 PM

I have been a vegan for over 20 years, although not a good one. During this time I have eaten fish & chicken. I love fish. I have also eaten too much processed foods. Within the last year I have lost 30 pounds bringing my weight down to 165. At 6ft tall I have now quit taking my statin drug as my cholesterol is down to 127. The reason I became a vegan is because my younger brother died of a heart attack at age 42, my dad at 52, my mother at 69, and my sister had a quadruple heart bypass at 65. So I decided to go another route and have exercised either running on a treadmill or riding my bike everyday for the past 40 years. I have educated myself in nutrition by reading the following books by experts in the field of nutrition.

The China Study--------- Dr Colin Campbell
Reversing heart disease--- Dr Dean Ornish
Prevent & reverse Heart disease Dr Caldwell Esselstyn
Breaking the food seduction Dr Neal Barnard
The starch solution Dr John McDougall
Eat to live Dr Joel Fuhrman

These are only a few of the important titles. Also below are some good movies to watch many of which are on youtube

Forks over knives
Eating
Fat sick & nearly dead
Simply raw
Supercharge me
Brendan Brazier Tri-athlete
Make yourself Heart attack proof
The last heart attack (about Clinton)
Processed People
Food Inc.
The world according to Monsanto.
Earthlings

SFandH - 9-23-2012 at 02:55 PM

The China Study is relatively new and being widely read. It's probably one of the bigger reasons for the increase in the popularity of plant-based diets.

From the author:

"I don’t use the word “vegan” or “vegetarian.” I don’t like those words. People who chose to eat that way chose to because of ideological reasons. I don’t want to denigrate their reasons for doing so, but I want people to talk about plant-based nutrition and to think about these ideas in a very empirical scientific sense, and not with an ideological bent to it.

The idea is that we should be consuming whole foods. We should not be relying on the idea that genes are determinants of our health. We should not be relying on the idea that nutrient supplementation is the way to get nutrition, because it’s not. I’m talking about whole, plant-based foods. The effect it produces is broad for treatment and prevention of a wide variety of ailments, from cancer to heart disease to diabetes."

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/nutrition-advice-fr...

[Edited on 9-23-2012 by SFandH]

elizabeth - 9-23-2012 at 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Some even go so far as to abhor the very thought of drinking milk. Maybe their infant formula was warmed soy milk with a nipple.

A little anthropomorphism here?

I understand your ethical stance, and I know I get enough eye rolling for my desire to maintain an ethical diet to know you probably get a lot more, but let's keep it real and factual.

Artificial insemination is not rape. By calling it that you belittle the experiences of real human women who have suffered from horrifying rapes.

While some dairy ranches may be run as you say, not all are. I am familiar with dairy ranches that are run organically and humanely. Cows are not milked endlessly. They spend a good part of their time grazing on pasture. They are not given hormones, chemicals, gmo feeds, animal byproduct feed, or routine antibiotics. The pasture that they graze and the silage that they eat is grown without herbicides, pesticides or artificial fertilizers. They have stalls with adequate bedding for comfort in inclement weather that allow them sufficient space for comfort.

I suggest you check out dairy ranches like the Strauss Family Creamery in Marin County. There are others, smaller, not so famous, that don't have web sites but raise their animals in the same fashion.

I realize, that for you, anything short of no animal use is not sufficient, but there are others of us who I believe have just as valid an ethical position who try to eat only from farmers and ranches who respect their animals, so at least post factual information.

LET THERE BE NO COW RAPING!

DavidE - 9-23-2012 at 03:48 PM

willardguy - 9-23-2012 at 03:54 PM

what do think this is a joke! :lol:

SFandH - 9-23-2012 at 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Some even go so far as to abhor the very thought of drinking milk. Maybe their infant formula was warmed soy milk with a nipple.

The organic dairy industry is 6% of the total US dairy industry (1). I'll accept that it does try to be more humane. But by doing so even it acknowledges the inhumanity of 94% the industry, about which everything I said is true. And even the organic industry is killing animals. I think that is immoral and inhumane.

Therefore I also think the animal welfare movement, followed by organic dairy farmers is misguided. Sort of like putting lipstick on a pig. It doesn't work for me. But it certainly is a step in the right direction. A tepid thanks to those folks.

(1) http://www.organicnewsroom.com/2011/04/us_organic_industry_v...

[Edited on 9-24-2012 by SFandH]

Lindalou - 9-23-2012 at 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by elizabeth

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Some even go so far as to abhor the very thought of drinking milk. Maybe their infant formula was warmed soy milk with a nipple.

Thank you for a breath of fresh air on this subject. There are always 2 sides to every story, the meat eaters and the fanatics

DavidE - 9-23-2012 at 04:41 PM

Ever see what a calf does to it's mother when it isn't satisfied with what's happening, or is bored, or whatever? Very few farmers I've seen, chomp down and try to run out the door of the milk barn with a mouth full.

Nature is not all fuzzy-wuzzy cuddle-poo life of luxury for any animal. A little puppy with needle teeth can torture its mother, never mind half a dozen snapping little crocs chasing her around.

I remember years ago helping to release a sea otter that had been injured, nursed back to health and then taken out to be released. The animal was about four years of age, a male. When the door was opened the little guy swam out, turned around and hauled burrito back into the cage.

I am dead against animal cruelty, especially elective cruelty that is not unintentional. My hens in Michoacán have the run of the barnyard. At night they get locked up away from marauding possums. Spoiled? Yeah you can say that. They scratch, they get corn and rice in their diet. They also have a rooster they follow around everywhere. If you look at a pasture it is the cows that always migrate to the bull. This is nature.

If you should compare what man eats now compared to what he ate in 3,000 BC, or 1492, or 1776, according to the pundits, we should have gone extinct. No fruit, no vegetables during the winter. Salt pork and flour flatcakes. Boil it down to three modern day enemies, excessive sugars, salt and fat. Greatly reduce the three of them and weight shall be shed. A person does not need to resort to gobbling tree moss to be healthy. It is sugars, salt and fat that does most of the damage. Yes carbohydrates create sugar. One of the absolute worst things I can eat is rice, in tandem with corn, followed by potatoes. It takes common sense to makes things work right, not just some fad diet.

luv2fish - 9-23-2012 at 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Ever see what a calf does to it's mother when it isn't satisfied with what's happening, or is bored, or whatever? Very few farmers I've seen, chomp down and try to run out the door of the milk barn with a mouth full.

Nature is not all fuzzy-wuzzy cuddle-poo life of luxury for any animal. A little puppy with needle teeth can torture its mother, never mind half a dozen snapping little crocs chasing her around.

I remember years ago helping to release a sea otter that had been injured, nursed back to health and then taken out to be released. The animal was about four years of age, a male. When the door was opened the little guy swam out, turned around and hauled burrito back into the cage.

I am dead against animal cruelty, especially elective cruelty that is not unintentional. My hens in Michoacán have the run of the barnyard. At night they get locked up away from marauding possums. Spoiled? Yeah you can say that. They scratch, they get corn and rice in their diet. They also have a rooster they follow around everywhere. If you look at a pasture it is the cows that always migrate to the bull. This is nature.

If you should compare what man eats now compared to what he ate in 3,000 BC, or 1492, or 1776, according to the pundits, we should have gone extinct. No fruit, no vegetables during the winter. Salt pork and flour flatcakes. Boil it down to three modern day enemies, excessive sugars, salt and fat. Greatly reduce the three of them and weight shall be shed. A person does not need to resort to gobbling tree moss to be healthy. It is sugars, salt and fat that does most of the damage. Yes carbohydrates create sugar. One of the absolute worst things I can eat is rice, in tandem with corn, followed by potatoes. It takes common sense to makes things work right, not just some fad diet.

Paulina - 9-23-2012 at 06:21 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI

We will fight for bovine freedom, we will hold our large heads high. We will run free with the buffalo or die....cows with guns.

(I love this song, I hope the link works)

P>*)))>{

[Edited on 24-9-2012 by Paulina]

bajalinda - 9-24-2012 at 08:19 AM

More recommended reading - "The Omnivore's Dilemma" (about the food supply and where our food comes from) and "In Defense of Food". Both by Michael Pollan.

SFandH - 9-24-2012 at 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paulina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI

We will fight for bovine freedom, we will hold our large heads high. We will run free with the buffalo or die....cows with guns.

(I love this song, I hope the link works)

P>*)))>{

[Edited on 24-9-2012 by Paulina]

Thanks Paulina - "That was fun." Anthropomorphism aside. Now I have an earbug - probably to Elizabeth's delight.

[Edited on 9-24-2012 by SFandH]

ALL I can say is .....................

MrBillM - 9-24-2012 at 09:37 AM

THANK GOD for Cows to KILL.

Along with Pigs, Chickens, Lambs and Fish.

And whatever mysterious combination of (formerly living) ingredients were in today's Spam.

Life without Meat would be less enjoyable.

Probably why Vegans tend to be such a Pain-in-the-Rear to be around.

Get Happy. Have a Whopper.

Animal-based meat is sooo last millenium

windgrrl - 9-24-2012 at 11:33 AM

Cultured tissue is already used for a variety of medical applications such as skin grafting. Soon cultured leather will be available, then test tube burgers and steaks (about 10 years away) for your guilt-free dining pleasure.

Game changer: 3D printed meat

elizabeth - 9-24-2012 at 12:11 PM

Quote:

Viva la Revolución...Support your right to arm cows!!!!!
Loved it!

DavidE - 9-24-2012 at 02:14 PM

A few years ago I had some vegetarian burger patties that were awesome. So awesome in fact that my friend would not touch them after trying one. "Ugh too much like the real thing", she complained. I ate hers.

jbcoug - 9-24-2012 at 02:32 PM

DavidE,

I guess it just shows that you can't please some people.

John

Guilt-Free Meat ?

MrBillM - 9-24-2012 at 02:59 PM

Is already here.

I feel no guilt at all.

Admittedly, one of the most disagreeable things I did as a youth was participating in slaughtering a cow.

While hoping never to do so again, I didn't have any problem consuming the product.

And still don't, but it comes out of the case at the market.

monoloco - 9-24-2012 at 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
A few years ago I had some vegetarian burger patties that were awesome. So awesome in fact that my friend would not touch them after trying one. "Ugh too much like the real thing", she complained. I ate hers.

My wife bought some rather bland veggie burgers from Costco but we found they were really good with bacon.

Skipjack Joe - 9-24-2012 at 11:06 PM

Quote:

Bravo! Absolutely hilarious. Well done and the animation is just as good as the song.

SFandH - 9-25-2012 at 05:31 AM

Just heard on the morning news the wholesale price of dead animal parts, including blood, blood vessels, skin, fat, flesh, tendons, and ligaments, in this case in the form of chicken extremities, has doubled.

Excellent!

Cows with guns!

[Edited on 9-25-2012 by SFandH]

Mexitron - 9-25-2012 at 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by windgrrl
Cultured tissue is already used for a variety of medical applications such as skin grafting. Soon cultured leather will be available, then test tube burgers and steaks (about 10 years away) for your guilt-free dining pleasure.

Game changer: 3D printed meat [/quote

Knew about the research for cultured meats for some time but this is the first I've heard of using 3D printing for meat...wow, Scotty replicate me a T-bone!

Speaking from Experience

MrBillM - 9-25-2012 at 10:06 AM

I seriously doubt that the "Guilt" angle has ANY chance of EVER making serious inroads in meat consumption.

It NEVER has.

For ANYBODY I've ever met.

BTW, in addition to my youthful Slaughtering experience, there was a period when my father worked for Baker Rendering Co. in Cudahy as a driver picking up Fat and Tallow from Markets and Butcher shops each day for rendering down as soap base.

On a number of occasions I accompanied him on his route. It was one of the foulest experiences possible. Given that the stench from the rendering plants would often waft for 20 miles or more, actually being inside the building was almost overpowering.

That said, the Filet Mignon, Prime Rib, Roast and Hamburgers those nights TASTED GREAT.

People have a facility for easily compartmentalizing and setting aside.

MEAT IS NEAT.

YUM

wessongroup - 9-25-2012 at 10:29 AM

They are still operation, as they still serve a purpose ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5-XFdGl0Vc

[Edited on 9-26-2012 by wessongroup]

TASTE DEPRIVATION ALERT

MrBillM - 9-26-2012 at 09:46 AM

DANGER - DANGER - DANGER.

Forget the Mid-East trivia.

Set aside Gas Prices.

Ignore the Electoral nonsense.

The B in BLT is endangered ?

There are WARNINGS that PORK could soon be in short supply due to the ongoing worldwide drought conditions.

OH NO, B.O., Say it ain't SO.

BUT, THANK GOD, the followup said that it is unlikely there will be a shortfall of supply in God's Blessed Provision in the USA. Simply an increase in cost.

WHEW !

As the news commentator said "Bacon is a REAL good friend of mine."

More to pay OK. Pork to go AWAY ?

NAY !

Skipjack Joe - 9-26-2012 at 10:25 AM

If you are concerned about the inhumaness of eating meat. IMO that pales to the inhumanity that laboratory animals are subjected to during the development and testing of all of our miracle drugs. Pathogens are directly injected into them to see how much a drug will help. At least animal food is killed mercifully quickly. Here you measure success by how long an animal survives.

SFandH - 9-26-2012 at 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
If you are concerned about the inhumaness of eating meat. IMO that pales to the inhumanity that laboratory animals are subjected to during the development and testing of all of our miracle drugs. Pathogens are directly injected into them to see how much a drug will help. At least animal food is killed mercifully quickly. Here you measure success by how long an animal survives.

Yes there is a big debate about experimenting with live animals for medical purposes. It's a complicated issue because many believe the benefits justify the action. There's a very practical aspect to it. Researchers using live animals are aware of the ethical issues as are the organizations that govern their research. A rigorous ethical vegan would be against it.

Meat eating involves orders of magnitude more animals and most importantly in my opinion, individuals can make the decision to not eat meat or use animal products without causing others who disagree with animal rights any problems and without the requirement to make/change laws. The only reason to eat meat is that it tastes good. There are very practical reasons to not eat meat in addition to the ethical consideration.

It's fundamentally the same issue, but with significantly different aspects.

[Edited on 9-26-2012 by SFandH]

Skipjack Joe - 9-26-2012 at 12:53 PM

Yes, they are a similar issue but the cruelty of testing on living things is magnitudes higher than simply slaughtering one.

Yet I don't think any vegan would refuse a pill to make him well on the basis of the suffering that had gone into making that pill.

Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

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