BajaNomad - immigration presentation in Loreto today

immigration presentation in Loreto today

rhintransit - 11-20-2012 at 06:28 PM

attended a presentation today on the new immigration law given by Lic J.E. Beaulne, LLB of Can-Am-Mex law firm out of La Paz. my head is still hurting from all the data covered in the two hour presentation, but I thought I'd share one important factoid:
every foreigner in Mexico, regardless of whatever other document he/she possessed...such as the old FM 2/3 or the new Temporary or Permanent Resident card...must have a valid FMM. (on entry, when the latter documents are presented along with the filled out FMM form, the immigration officer does not put # of days allowed in country)
get at point of entry. only. surrender at point of exit, whether by air, land or sea. repeat for subsequent in's and out's. must also be presented, with copy, when applying for whatever resident status.
don't shoot the messenger. am just repeating the lawyer's reading of the law.

DENNIS - 11-20-2012 at 06:42 PM

My next door neighbor went to his agent yesterday to start the process for his eighth year and the agent said no one in Imm has any idea what's happening.
Bottom line...the neighbor paid 600 bucks and six months of bank statements to end his relationship with Imm....forever. [that's what they told him anyway]
His monthly income is less than the published requirement.

I think Mexico has reached new heights of confusion with this one and local interpretation will be available....for a price.

Udo - 11-20-2012 at 06:49 PM

:light:

rhintransit - 11-20-2012 at 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
My next door neighbor went to his agent yesterday to start the process for his eighth year and the agent said no one in Imm has any idea what's happening.
Bottom line...the neighbor paid 600 bucks and six months of bank statements to end his relationship with Imm....forever. [that's what they told him anyway]
His monthly income is less than the published requirement.

I think Mexico has reached new heights of confusion with this one and local interpretation will be available....for a price.

sounds like he applied for a Permanent Resident Card. which is the only way to end the INM relationship. but published price for that is about 3800 pesos. bank statements required, published income requirement about 28k US/yr. owning property valued above 250k also counts. although the exact amount has yet to be set.
the lawyer presented the law as written. local INM will interpret but all the supporting documents/requests/bank statements are sent to Mexico (City) for processing and they can be approved, kicked back for more info, or denied. until the card is in hand, you've got nothing.
confusion always reigns...we'll have to give it time to sort out.

[Edited on 11-21-2012 by rhintransit]

DENNIS - 11-20-2012 at 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rhintransit

owning property valued above 250k also counts. although the exact amount has yet to be set.

Now that you mention it, he did say something about owning property, which he does......an eight thousand dollar mobile home on leased land, but I suppose that can be embellished a bit.

gnukid - 11-20-2012 at 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rhintransit
attended a presentation today on the new immigration law given by Lic J.E. Beaulne, LLB of Can-Am-Mex law firm out of La Paz. my head is still hurting from all the data covered in the two hour presentation, but I thought I'd share one important factoid:
every foreigner in Mexico, regardless of whatever other document he/she possessed...such as the old FM 2/3 or the new Temporary or Permanent Resident card...must have a valid FMM. (on entry, when the latter documents are presented along with the filled out FMM form, the immigration officer does not put # of days allowed in country)
get at point of entry. only. surrender at point of exit, whether by air, land or sea. repeat for subsequent in's and out's. must also be presented, with copy, when applying for whatever resident status.
don't shoot the messenger. am just repeating the lawyer's reading of the law.

THe new law states that no person may be in posession of two forms of visa at the same time, just as always. I would say this is wrong or a misunderstanding. Call the 800 number to check before you risk such a big mistake. My understanding is that the application for temporal or permanente is a valid FMM for up to 180 days. Of course I am no expert like your pal the lawyer. I'll check and report back with some hot chicks from INM in DF!

bajalinda - 11-20-2012 at 08:29 PM

hhhmmm, well, according to what this lawyer told you, the FMM thing sounds like the reverse from what FM2 & 3 holders were supposed to do under the old rules, which was that you had to fill out a form when leaving Mexico and surrender it on return. So all of us with an FM2 or 3 who came back to Mexico after a trip to the States or Canada (or wherever) before implementation of the new regs.....we are in violation of the new law because we don't have an FMM? Seems a bit much to me - I'm taking this all with a big grain of salt - yes, give it time to sort out.

DENNIS - 11-20-2012 at 09:44 PM

This is getting completely crazy.

monoloco - 11-20-2012 at 10:15 PM

I flew out of Mexico City on Saturday and when I cleared immigration they had me fill out an FMM form and anotar my FM2 number in box # 10.

[Edited on 11-21-2012 by monoloco]

Riom - 11-21-2012 at 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
The new law states that no person may be in posession of two forms of visa at the same time, just as always.

The FMM isn't a visa, it's an record of entry/exit (like an I-94 for the US).

See question 10 on the front of the FMM: "If you are a resident foreigner write down the number of [your] FM2 or FM3 or immigrant photocard". Which matches what monoloco said.

It's always been intended since those forms were launched in March 2010 that everybody should fill them in, but it's not been enforced at the land borders (and will be a real pain when it is).

Rob

[Edited on 2012-11-21 by Riom]

gnukid - 11-21-2012 at 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Riom

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
The new law states that no person may be in posession of two forms of visa at the same time, just as always.

THe tarjeta isn't a visa technically either. The tone of the statement seemed incorrect, that is that you shoudl go through the effort to get a temporal or permanente tarjeta and then you should go through the process of getting a FMM just as everyone else does anyway, implying costs and time and effort to carry one as well, whihc makes the effort to get the other form somewht redundant. So now a person who is here ona permanente must stop and fil out these forms at evry crossng like a tourists? I am sure there is some truth in what may have been said it just doesn't make sense that's all but that is mexico.

DENNIS - 11-21-2012 at 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
So now a person who is here ona permanente must stop and fil out these forms at evry crossng like a tourists? I am sure there is some truth in what may have been said it just doesn't make sense that's all but that is mexico.

That won't be happening.....especially at the San Ysidro gate. It would affect thousands of drivers every day.
Besides, how would one tell the difference between a card carrying resident and a day-tripper?

ncampion - 11-21-2012 at 08:50 AM

Here's a pretty good "plain language" description of what the new regulations say. Although, I'm still not sure what it will mean to me.

http://www.yucatanexpatriateservices.com/resident-services/new-immigration-laws-2012.html

.

bajalinda - 11-21-2012 at 09:49 AM

Thanks for that, Monoloco. The procedure you went through in Mexico City sounds pretty much like the way it worked before.

And thanks ncampion - that website is very helpful.

With all due respect to the lawyer who spoke in Loreto, I can't help but think that he got it backwards regarding the FMM requirement for holders of an FM 2 or 3 or for holders of the Temporary or Permanent Resident cards. Right, that is one lawyer's reading of the law, and I would definitely get a second opinion on that reading before taking it as the gospel truth. Just sayin.....that's my 2 cents.

Hook - 11-21-2012 at 11:35 AM

I'll be getting the mainland angle next week. At least, we're gonna head to the office and see what they say about what we can apply for.

Both of us have No Inmigrante cards; I am entering my 3rd year and my wife her 5th year. We hope to apply for Residente Permanente cards.

She SHOULD qualify by virtue of having had the FM3/No Inmigrante card for four years, according to the new regs. I am going to try the purported new method of proving sufficient income to qualify, without going through another two years of Residente Temporal.

DENNIS - 11-21-2012 at 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
I am going to try the purported new method of proving sufficient income to qualify, without going through another two years of Residente Temporal.

Property ownership is also a factor, Hook.

DENNIS - 11-21-2012 at 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ncampion
Here's a pretty good "plain language" description of what the new regulations say. Although, I'm still not sure what it will mean to me.

http://www.yucatanexpatriateservices.com/resident-services/new-immigration-laws-2012.html

.

This is from the linked site. It just has to be wrong:

"The permanent resident visa will be valid for one hundred and eighty calendar days with a single entry."

DaliDali - 11-21-2012 at 05:17 PM

There may be a whole bunch of constipated folks who live here and will now have to ditch those South Dakota plates in favor of importing their cars and obtaining BCS or BCN plates.

I hope this does not apply for the "free" zone of Baja California.

E gads....now what?

I saw chatter about that in the comments section of that website provided. It's not clear?..maybe not?

[Edited on 11-22-2012 by DaliDali]

DENNIS - 11-21-2012 at 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaliDali
There may be a whole bunch of constipated folks who live here and will now have to ditch those South Dakota plates in favor of importing their cars and obtaining BCS or BCN plates.

I hope this does not apply for the "free" zone of Baja California.

E gads....now what?

I saw chatter about that in the comments section of that website provided. It's not clear?..maybe not?

[Edited on 11-22-2012 by DaliDali]

That's the first I've heard of that. I think it would be more distressing for the locals with US plated cars, the Chocolates. [that's the cars....not the locals]

.

[Edited on 11-22-2012 by DENNIS]

Scorpimon - 11-21-2012 at 05:31 PM

The Residencia Permanente Visa is good for only 180 days, meaning you have only 180 days to apply at your INM in Mexico or it will expire.

I communicated with the Director of the BCS Tramites Migratorios INM office in Cabo San Lucas today and they documented the process that I will have to follow when I get to Loreto with my new Residencia Permanente Visa. In Loreto I must exchange the Visa in my passport for my new migratory card, which should take about 10 days because it is printed in Mexico City and mailed to Loreto via Estafeta.

I will have to get an FMM when I cross the border into Mexico. This will have to be submitted to the Loreto INM office along with the following documents.

Original and photocopy of my passport.

Formato Basico, the form filled out with my general information provided by the office in Loreto.

Payment for the Residencia Permanente card.

Photographs as usual.

Sounds easy enough but who knows. This information comes from the bosses of the Loreto INM office in Cabo.

Give them the original passport?

akshadow - 11-21-2012 at 06:55 PM

I cannot imagine this is a requirement. you need to give up your US passport? for how long? Like most government rules and regulations they are written by someone in the federal capital, Mexico City or Wash. DC without real knowledge of how the world operates out in the field.
we often have this problem in Alaska with DC regulations

Quote:

Originally posted by Scorpimon

I will have to get an FMM when I cross the border into Mexico. This will have to be submitted to the Loreto INM office along with the following documents.

Original and photocopy of my passport.

Formato Basico, the form filled out with my general information provided by the office in Loreto.

Payment for the Residencia Permanente card.

Photographs as usual.

Sounds easy enough but who knows. This information comes from the bosses of the Loreto INM office in Cabo.

DianaT - 11-21-2012 at 07:28 PM

And I have heard, right here on this forum, that one of the attractions of Mexico is the lack of over-regulation and more freedom for the individual. :lol:

I have always laughed at that one because if one thinks that there is a lack of regulation in Mexico, they don't have any friends, both Mexican and Gringo who own businesses.

This immigration thing will all be straightened out at some time in the future---- well probably just before they change the laws again. Meantime, we will just do what our local office requires for our FM3 or whatever it will be.

redmesa - 11-21-2012 at 07:52 PM

I have no idea what the new types of cards and visas are now.
I have never even been asked in 4 years by anyone to see my FM3. I know it could happen so I am always ready but so far no one has been the least bit interested except for renewal. So I plan to just go along as usual until renewal and then do whatever the local office tells me to do. The more I read about it all the more confusing it all seems.

The only thing that is 100% absolute clear on this is

Howard - 11-21-2012 at 08:13 PM

NOBODY knows what is going on or how to do it including immigration at least at the local levels.

Just have to wait it out until it becomes a lot clearer.

Right now it's as clear as mud.

Is anyone surprised?

rhintransit - 11-21-2012 at 08:44 PM

here is a follow up email from the presenter of the meeting:

"I would like to inform the ones who did not get an FMM on entry to Mexico but do have either an NO MIGRANTE OR INMIGRANTE card:

According to immigration officer in Loreto: You are legal in Mexico and they will not fine anyone who does not have one regarding the fact that some did not get an FMM at point of entry. This been said I will check with the immigration legal dept. and will let you know if there is an other opinion regarding this because if one wants to fly out you normally must remit the FMM to the Immigration officer on exit.

On the subject of one who had to pay a fine in the pass:

This is a black mark on your Immigration record and the system rejects any request for change of status...in other words, one who has a"black mark on record" must start over under the new system..."

DENNIS - 11-21-2012 at 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by akshadow
I cannot imagine this is a requirement. you need to give up your US passport?

It used to be worse. You had to let IMM have your passport and they would dismantle it....take out the binding staples, and copy every page....even the blank ones.
That would take about a week.

redmesa - 11-21-2012 at 09:47 PM

A year ago coming in to the airport we got in the tourist visa line instead of the FM3 liine and the inspector was surprised and told us we never needed to line up with an FM3. Nothing for sure except change.

Scorpimon - 11-23-2012 at 08:13 AM

When I said you need to provide the original and copy of your passport I read this as only presenting them your US passport and then they keep the copy of it for their files.

Marc - 11-23-2012 at 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Udo
:light:

Ditto

MsTerieus - 11-25-2012 at 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scorpimon
The Residencia Permanente Visa is good for only 180 days, meaning you have only 180 days to apply at your INM in Mexico or it will expire.

I communicated with the Director of the BCS Tramites Migratorios INM office in Cabo San Lucas today and they documented the process that I will have to follow when I get to Loreto with my new Residencia Permanente Visa. In Loreto I must exchange the Visa in my passport for my new migratory card, which should take about 10 days because it is printed in Mexico City and mailed to Loreto via Estafeta.

I will have to get an FMM when I cross the border into Mexico. This will have to be submitted to the Loreto INM office along with the following documents.

Original and photocopy of my passport.

Formato Basico, the form filled out with my general information provided by the office in Loreto.

Payment for the Residencia Permanente card.

Photographs as usual.

Sounds easy enough but who knows. This information comes from the bosses of the Loreto INM office in Cabo.

One thing that surprises me (well sort of, not really): I just went to the local INM Office, in Ensenada, with my FMM (issued in August) and application for a Non-Imigrante visa. I was told the INM Office would NOT accept my application - that I had to go to San Diego to apply for the visa. Maybe my situation is different; I was applying for a visa for the first time.

Also, didn't you forget to mention, in your list of what will be required to be submitted when you apply for your visa, documentation showing you qualify, financially, for the visa, plus a Spanish translation of that documentation (if it is not in Spanish)?

[Edited on 11-25-2012 by MsTerieus]

[Edited on 11-25-2012 by MsTerieus]

Hook - 11-25-2012 at 03:07 PM

It depends on how many prior FM3s Scorpimon had. Under the new regs, if one has had an FM3 for four years, no income verification is needed to move on to the Permanente.

It's possible that the Ensenada office is technically correct, MsT. To INITIATE a new Temporal card must be done at a Mexican Embassy in your country of citizenship, according to most interpretations of the new regs. Those of us who currently possess a valid FM2 or FM3 can go directly to the INM office in our area w/o going through a Mexican consulate.

MsTerieus - 11-25-2012 at 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook

It's possible that the Ensenada office is technically correct, MsT. To INITIATE a new Temporal card must be done at a Mexican Embassy in your country of citizenship, according to most interpretations of the new regs. Those of us who currently possess a valid FM2 or FM3 can go directly to the INM office in our area w/o going through a Mexican consulate.

Thanks for the input, Hook. Since I guess I am supposed to surrender my current FMM before applying, I guess I wasted my time and $ getting the last one (which I got ONLY in order to apply for a visa). Hmmm, maybe I'll forget about the whole thing for now! Nothing like "rules" that discourage people from complying with them.

[Edited on 11-25-2012 by MsTerieus]

Scorpimon - 11-25-2012 at 07:04 PM

MsTerieus

I applied in the USA at my local Mexican Consulate and did not have a current Mexican Visa of any type. The rules are different North and South of the border.

The form I filled out and supporting documentation provided to the Mexican Consulate in Denver for the Visa were in English. The Spanish forms all pertain to my Menaje de Casa. I provided documents showing pension income, IRA account and Fideicomiso which shows the appraisal of my casa in Loreto. In addition I had to provide a letter from my local police showing we were of good moral character.

MsTerieus - 11-25-2012 at 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scorpimon
MsTerieus

I applied in the USA at my local Mexican Consulate and did not have a current Mexican Visa of any type. The rules are different North and South of the border.

The form I filled out and supporting documentation provided to the Mexican Consulate in Denver for the Visa were in English. The Spanish forms all pertain to my Menaje de Casa. I provided documents showing pension income, IRA account and Fideicomiso which shows the appraisal of my casa in Loreto. In addition I had to provide a letter from my local police showing we were of good moral character.

Thanks for the input, Scorpimon. Was this since the rules changed? If so, do you know what (else) is required in order to get your "real" residency permit (or whatever it's called) -- i.e., the thing I gather you need to apply for, in MX, w/in 30 days (?) of obtaining the visa in the US? It WILL be good news if I don't have to get a ton of pages of financial statements translated. As to a letter from the police: SHEESH! I hope I can request/get one by phone, 'cause I'm a long way from Northern California, where I used to live.

fourninerpapa - 11-26-2012 at 09:09 AM

We usually walk across the border at Algodones to get our fnm. We then drive across the border heading south at Tecate. Is this still possible to do under the new regulations? Once we are south of the border how would anyone know that the fnm was purchased in Algodones but we crossed at Tecate?

Norm

bajaguy - 11-26-2012 at 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MsTerieus

Quote:

Why don't you just pay Carlos to do it for you???

MsTerieus - 11-26-2012 at 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy

Why don't you just pay Carlos to do it for you???

What do you mean by "do it for you"? I don't think he or anyone else can go to the US and apply for me.

In any case, I WAS about ready to pay a consultant for help and have the names of a couple from whom I'd choose. But considering that I already did most of the work (other than translating my financials) - to the point where Carlos had advised me NOT to pay for his services and just to get a friend to help me with the translation - and that, possibly, I won't need to translate my financials if I apply now (in the US), I might as well wait until I have a better understanding of whether I actually need help.

[Edited on 11-26-2012 by MsTerieus]

bajaguy - 11-26-2012 at 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MsTerieus

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy

Why don't you just pay Carlos to do it for you???

Yeah, I guess you are correct......no use rushing into things now..........

rhintransit - 11-26-2012 at 07:09 PM

here you go...just got an email from the lawyer who gave the talk, he must be checking things out and he emailed all who attended. clear as mud is right!:

"Comming in the country by ground transportation:
a) One who does not have an immigration card MUST get an FMM.

b) One who has an INMIGRANTE or NO INMIGRANTE card do not require to stop at the border for an FMM.

Comming in the country by air or sea transportation:
One with an INMIGRANTE or NO INMIGRANTE card do not require to fill in an FMM, at point of entry must show the card.

Going out of the country by ground transportation: One does not stop at border.

Going out of the country by air or sea transportation:
One with an INMIGRANTE or NO INMIGRANTE the airline or the sea carrier will issue an FMM , it must be filled in, at point of exit must show the FMM to the immigration officer at point of exit, the officer will keep the big part and return the small part; said part must be keep and remitted to the immigration officer at point of entry next time coming in.

ONE WHO IS IN THE COUNTRY WITHOUT ANY IMMIGRATION DOCUMENT WISHING TO EXIT VIA AIR OR SEA:

Must present at local immigration office a request for regularization: This request will be denied and he or she will get a letter which says he or she has 30 days to leave the country. This letter must be remitted to the officer at point of exit (airport or seaport).

Hope this is not as clear as mud and if it is ask me for precisions,

I will be giving a second conference on Dec. 11th.

I remain,

LIC. JACQUES-EDOUARD BEAULNE, LL.B.

DENNIS - 11-26-2012 at 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rhintransit

b) One who has an INMIGRANTE or NO INMIGRANTE card do not require to stop at the border for an FMM.

Well....WTF is an Inmigrante card? Is that what is issued for Residente Perminente?

And this: NO INMIGRANTE. Are they really going to issue a card that says you arn't this: INMIGRANTE?

Scorpimon - 11-26-2012 at 07:42 PM

MsTerieus

I applied 11/13 just after the new regulations went into effect. The Visa issued by the Mexican Consulate is good for 180 days and not 30 days. All the financial documents were in English.

The other documents they wanted were the generic application form (?) explaining who you are and what you want and documents the other documents. Passport and copy were needed as were two mug photos.

Riom - 11-26-2012 at 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Well....WTF is an Inmigrante card? Is that what is issued for Residente Perminente?

And this: NO INMIGRANTE. Are they really going to issue a card that says you arn't this: INMIGRANTE?

The NO INMIGRANTE is what replaced the FM3 a couple of years ago, the INMIGRANTE was the FM2 (INMIGRADO was the next stage).

Since that FMM advice quotes terms which are no longer current (both have been replaced with Residente Temporal, and Inmigrado with Resident Permanente), it does make you wonder how up-to-date it is.

Rob

DENNIS - 11-26-2012 at 07:51 PM

Thanks, Rob. I'm just confused andhave a feeling it's going to get worse before it gets better.
I have to do something quickly since my ninth year of FM3/FM2 is due to expire mid December.
These new regs, whatever they really are, are seeming more harsh as time goes on.

Riom - 11-26-2012 at 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I have to do something quickly since my ninth year of FM3/FM2 is due to expire mid December.

I have similar timing and 7 years of FM3. My understanding is my choices are:

1. apply for a 2-year temporary resident permit to replace the FM3. (2 years because I already have 2 years on the CURRENT document, so that takes it up to 4 years when I can trade it for a permanent resident permit, under the current rules). This looks totally straightforward and is unlikely to need income proof (for non-working). Seems low risk.

2. apply for permanent residence, on the basis I have been here more than 4 years. This requires both FM3's to be continuous with no gaps and no fines ever. I'll have to double-check whether there was a gap due to delays in processing, I can't remember. Some will still say current document only counts, but the very latest rules (and the law) do allow more than one document if no breaks. This, as you can see, is fluid and a bit more uncertain.

3. there are also the income, assets and property ownership routes to permanent, which don't take into account any previous residence. I doubt I could pull the right paperwork together this year, my stuff is scattered across a lot more countries and currencies than most.

So my first choice is #2, if the FM3's work together, else #1 and maybe do #3 next year or just wait another year and then convert the temporary to permanent.

For you, I assume you have 4 years on your current FM2? That should be directly exchangeable for permanent residence with no income proof, which would really be the way to go if at all possible, no more renewals "ever" (until the next type of card comes out).

Whatever you do, apply in good time, DON'T let the current card expire. It does give grandfathered rights.

Rob

DENNIS - 11-27-2012 at 08:37 AM

Thanks again, Rob. Income requirments arn't an issue for me. I'll try for some clarrification today.

MsTerieus - 11-28-2012 at 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scorpimon
MsTerieus

I applied 11/13 just after the new regulations went into effect. The Visa issued by the Mexican Consulate is good for 180 days and not 30 days. All the financial documents were in English.

The other documents they wanted were the generic application form (?) explaining who you are and what you want and documents the other documents. Passport and copy were needed as were two mug photos.

Thanks, Scorpioman. I have a friend who did something similar in Seattle and had no problem.

Ironically, the Mexican Consulate in San Diego has a web site that is not helpful at all. Furthermore, it actually says "for information about an FM3, click here." (Now WHY do they still call it an FM3?) When you "click here," it says, "Mexican Consulates in the USA no longer issue nor renew FM3s. For FM3 and Visa petitions please contact INAMI (Mexico's National Migration Institute)." (No mention anywhere of the current visas' names.)

http://consulmex.sre.gob.mx/sandiego/index.php/fm-3

On first read, I thought maybe they just meant that they did not issue "FM3s" because no FM3s are being issued anywhere (they have been replaced with visas by other names). However, I don't think that was the point - I think they are saying that one cannot obtain or renew any visa in the USA. And yet, just 2 weeks ago, I was personally turned away from the Immigration Office in Ensenada, when I tried to apply for a no-inmigrante visa there, and told I had to do this in San Diego!

Go figure. It's better than Kafka could have dreamed.

So, I think I will be taking the advice of the wise Nomads who advised me just to sit tight and wait until somebody here figures out where and how visas will be issued.

[Edited on 11-28-2012 by MsTerieus]

DENNIS - 11-28-2012 at 04:12 PM

OK....here's how it went for me yesterday with my independent agent.
I had an FM3 for five years and an FM2 for four years.
I now give him six months of bank statements, a copy of my passport. my FM2 along with 600 dollars for the Residente Permanente card, and it's over for me.
The price will vary from agent to agent, but the government gets around $275 of the 600.

Hook - 11-28-2012 at 05:00 PM

Jesus Cristo, Dennis, that's worse than a mordida!!! SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS!!!!

And you'll STILL have to go down there at least once for fingerprinting. :no:

Edit: Not only that, you should qualify for the Permanente with NO FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE, by virtue of having been on an FM2 and FM3 for at least four years.

[Edited on 11-29-2012 by Hook]

DENNIS - 11-28-2012 at 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
Jesus Cristo, Dennis, that's worse than a mordida!!! SIX HUNDRED DOLLARS!!!!

And you'll STILL have to go down there at least once for fingerprinting. :no:

Edit: Not only that, you should qualify for the Permanente with NO FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE, by virtue of having been on an FM2 and FM3 for at least four years.

I'm beyond caring, Hook. It just serves to illustrate the autonomy of these IMN offices. No two are the same and I know this agent charges too much, but I'll take the one last hit.
I just want it over so I can wander into the dessert and die.....legally.

rhintransit - 11-28-2012 at 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
OK....here's how it went for me yesterday with my independent agent.
I had an FM3 for five years and an FM2 for four years.
I now give him six months of bank statements, a copy of my passport. my FM2 along with 600 dollars for the Residente Permanente card, and it's over for me.
The price will vary from agent to agent, but the government gets around $275 of the 600.

you know, I'm almost ready to throw money at someone to fix it. but...but...I've done it by myself now for 8 years and I guess I'm stubborn enough to want to finish that way. I plan DIY one more time, whatever it takes. one Permanent Resident card, please, sir or madam, and I never ever every have to see INM again?
PRICELESS

DENNIS - 11-28-2012 at 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rhintransit
you know, I'm almost ready to throw money at someone to fix it. but...but...I've done it by myself now for 8 years and I guess I'm stubborn enough to want to finish that way. I plan DIY one more time, whatever it takes. one Permanent Resident card, please, sir or madam, and I never ever every have to see INM again?
PRICELESS

Over time, the Ensenada office has installed so many hurdles [uncrossed Ts and undotted Is] in their efforts to force the use of an agent that most are afraid to try the solo route.
The agent I use can probably foresee a drop in repeat business so he's going for the final hurrah.

MsTerieus - 11-28-2012 at 05:45 PM

Quote:

That's awful, Dennis! $600?! If the government gets only $275, does that mean the agent is taking the rest? If so, either agents charge a LOT MORE for the permanent residency card than they do for a no-imnigrante visa/card, or rates have gone way up over the past few months, or your agent is just more expensive than the one I had checked with (Carlos V.)! But I totally understand your resignation -- I'm getting close to it, myself.

bajaguy - 11-28-2012 at 05:58 PM

I have used Carlos V for many years.....smooth and seamless. This year should be the last time. I'll pay whatever just to get it over with.

Riom - 11-28-2012 at 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
The price will vary from agent to agent, but the government gets around $275 of the 600.

To be fair to the agent, the government will get at least 1000+3815=4815 pesos ($370) of that. And as you say, he'll be losing all that repeat business if successful. Seems reasonable. This isn't really something where it's worth spending time shopping around for somebody cheap, might as well do the whole process yourself if you have the time for that.

Rob

DENNIS - 11-28-2012 at 06:29 PM

I thought the govt. fee was around 3000 Ps. I lost track of most posted details a long time ago I suppose.

rhintransit - 11-28-2012 at 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
I thought the govt. fee was around 3000 Ps. I lost track of most posted details a long time ago I suppose.

agree, Perm. Resident fee is 3200 +/- a few pesos. not sure where Riom came up with another 1000??? am I missing something?

[Edited on 11-29-2012 by rhintransit]

Riom - 11-28-2012 at 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rhintransit
agree, Perm. Resident fee is 3200 +/- a few pesos. not sure where Riom came up with another 1000??? am I missing something?

There's first of all a change of status application fee of 1000 pesos (at the time of application), and a fee of 3815 pesos when the permanent card is issued. Total 4815 pesos ($370) just in government fees, currently.

Full list of the temporary and permanent fees and a link to the original DOF (government) source: New Immigration Fees

Rob

Hook - 11-29-2012 at 07:12 AM

It's possible there's some page translation fees in there, by the agent. Some "official" translators charge 100 pesos per page.

We did not go in to our local office last Monday as expected. The very painful death of our oldest dog just left us unwilling. Next Monday, for sure.

I'd say the Ensenada office is the reigning PITA king of all the INM offices. Maybe that is money well spent, Dennis.

rhintransit - 11-29-2012 at 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Riom

Quote:

Originally posted by rhintransit
agree, Perm. Resident fee is 3200 +/- a few pesos. not sure where Riom came up with another 1000??? am I missing something?

all is so clear as mud. the link does say 1000 fee 'change of status' indeed, but with a note, such as when changing from temporary to permanent. going from an expired status, as we all are, to the newly created categories would not qualify as a 'change of status' to me, but, hey, I'm not INM...

DENNIS - 11-29-2012 at 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
I'd say the Ensenada office is the reigning PITA king of all the INM offices. Maybe that is money well spent, Dennis.

Well spent for me.

Really sorry about the loss of your dog, Hook.

LaTijereta - 11-29-2012 at 07:57 AM

Quote:

I would be interested what experience other Nomads have at the Loreto INM office about using thier FM3 years as part of their process to get to "Residente Permanente"..
My talk with them last week, they stated that they were only allowing years under a FM2 to count towards "RP" status?

MsTerieus - 11-29-2012 at 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hook
It's possible there's some page translation fees in there, by the agent. Some "official" translators charge 100 pesos per page.

We did not go in to our local office last Monday as expected. The very painful death of our oldest dog just left us unwilling. Next Monday, for sure.

I'd say the Ensenada office is the reigning PITA king of all the INM offices. Maybe that is money well spent, Dennis.

Maybe so, but the agent I spoke to (the one Dennis uses) includes that with his fee. Great to know I'm dealing with the biggest PITA.

DENNIS - 11-29-2012 at 11:16 AM

What's to translate on a bank statement? It's all numbers. Imn doesn't care where it comes from.....only that it arrives on a regular basis.
If fees are charged for that, it's a pure and simple ripoff.

rhintransit - 11-29-2012 at 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LaTijereta

Quote:

I got the same story (about a month ago) and they are wrong. not that that helps. I figure I'll have to go to La Paz or hire a lawyer if they persist in this belief.

Article 162, secto VI states that Permanent Resident status (from Article 52 sect VII) conditions for Permanent Residents include (among others, most of which aren't applicable to the average gringo) (II) pensioned or retired with sufficient income to live in the country or (III0 qualify under a points system to be defined (mainly for highly qualified skilled workers similar to the pints-based immigration to Australia, Canada, New Zealand). also included is owning property in Mexico, amount to be determined but currently thought to be about 250K.

[Edited on 11-29-2012 by rhintransit]

Lee - 11-29-2012 at 02:00 PM

I'm wondering what drives someone to get a Permanent Resident status vs. naturalization? I've read the benefits of both along with not having to renew either.

Are there benefits that ''fit'' someone wanting Permanent Resident status other than no more renewals? I know the costs are less, don't have to show up in DF for the test, etc.

What else is there?

DENNIS - 11-29-2012 at 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee
What else is there?

Naturalization is a grueling process, Lee. First....a working knowledge of Spanish is required as well as taking a test. There are questions about the national anthem as well as other areas that good citizens should be aware of.
On top of that, one must travel to Mexico City to do all of it.

Shari went through this a while back and perhaps, if she sees this, she'll add some info.

I think Blanca did as well.

.

[Edited on 11-29-2012 by DENNIS]

MsTerieus - 11-29-2012 at 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
What's to translate on a bank statement? It's all numbers. Imn doesn't care where it comes from.....only that it arrives on a regular basis.
If fees are charged for that, it's a pure and simple ripoff.

Maybe not a savings account statement from a bank. However, have you never seen a statement from a brokerage house? (Mine are ~20 pages). There are many, many terms and phrases to translate. The biggest problem is not translating but FORMATTING the translation pages (which have many columns of numbers, under many different headings) to resemble the originals and to be legible.

DENNIS - 11-29-2012 at 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MsTerieus
The biggest problem is not translating but FORMATTING the translation pages (which have many columns of numbers, under many different headings) to resemble the originals and to be legible.

By the way....I think I recall your mention that Carlos may be doing some translating. I'm pretty sure he isn't as translators are trained and licensed. Translations from unlicensed sources are ignored by the government.

Readers' Digest Condensed version is OkeyDokey

Mulegena - 11-29-2012 at 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MsTerieus

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
What's to translate on a bank statement? It's all numbers. Imn doesn't care where it comes from.....only that it arrives on a regular basis.
...

Maybe not a savings account statement from a bank. However, have you never seen a statement from a brokerage house? (Mine are ~20 pages). ...

Its been my experience that Immigration does not want 20 pages translated to clutter your file.
They just want 3 consecutive months' one-page statements which contains your name, a current date and a balance which meets their qualifications. They don't need this translated.

Be sure to ink-out the account number(s) and your stateside address, btw-- t'aint nobody's biznezz but yours and it protects you from identity theft.

shari - 11-29-2012 at 05:24 PM

regarding becoming a citizen....the test is only 5 questions...it's the study sheet of the possible 100 questions that is grueling to learn as well as the anthem not to mention having to go to DF twice....but it was worth it for me!

I believe the test is not given to applicants over 60.

I love to vote and I can have land in my name and just like being a citizen in the country I live in.

willardguy - 11-29-2012 at 05:26 PM

how many can you miss out of five? :?:

DENNIS - 11-29-2012 at 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I believe the test is not given to applicants over 60.

You mean we get a pass? Hard to imagine.

DENNIS - 11-29-2012 at 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by willardguy
how many can you miss out of five? :?:

None, but you can buy the answers from Shari. :lol:

Lee - 11-29-2012 at 05:39 PM

Granted the naturalization process isn't easy. It is doable, though. And I think those who went that route shared much like Shari wrote -- it was worth it.

I don't think those getting Residential status do it because it was easier. Or do they?

Dennis is over 60 so the test doesn't apply.

Hook - 11-29-2012 at 06:01 PM

Based on info gotten off a Mazatlan discussion board, the issue of whether a person with a Residente Permanente can drive a foreign plated vehicle was discussed at the immigration forum in Mazatlan this morning. Representatives of INM stated that person's with a Permanente RENTISTA card ARE allowed to drive a foreign plated vehicle. The reasoning given was because all their income was from OUTSIDE of Mexico.

If this holds true, that pretty much makes it a slam dunk in favor of getting a Residente Permanente RENTISTA card, IMO. For one lump sum, you would be able to drive your foreign plated vehicle, not have any restrictions on entering or exiting the country, not have to check in or out when entering or exiting by land and SUPPOSEDLY never have to apply for any type of INM card again.

Can this really be true? Hey, it's Mexico..................who knows?

MsTerieus - 11-29-2012 at 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mulegena

Quote:

Originally posted by MsTerieus

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
What's to translate on a bank statement? It's all numbers. Imn doesn't care where it comes from.....only that it arrives on a regular basis.
...

Maybe not a savings account statement from a bank. However, have you never seen a statement from a brokerage house? (Mine are ~20 pages). ...

Who knows what the !$#@$ they want, now, but when I tried to apply a few months ago, the representative (who seemed to know what she was doing) quickly segregated from the numerous pages of statements I'd brought with me, three statements of about 20 pages each, and she advised me to get them translated and re-submit them and the translation with my application.

I might add: a lot of people who invest in stocks, bonds and/or mutual funds don't keep that much money in savings accounts or other accounts that are summarized in short statements. I don't THINK that even the Mexican government would be so stupid as to exclude lengthier statements of account as evidence of financial eligibility to obtain a visa.

[Edited on 11-30-2012 by MsTerieus]

MsTerieus - 11-29-2012 at 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Well, you are mistaken, Dennis. He was perfectly willing to have his assistants translate my financials - which was what they were in the middle of doing for someone else when I went to his office. INM does not require certified translations; anyone can do them. And as you said, it's mostly numbers (though lots of standard banking/brokerage phrases, as well).

[Edited on 11-30-2012 by MsTerieus]

DENNIS - 11-29-2012 at 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MsTerieus
Well, you are mistaken, Dennis. He was perfectly willing to have his assistants translate my financials - which was what they were in the middle of doing for someone else when I went to his office. INM does not require certified translations; anyone can do them. And as you said, it's mostly numbers (though lots of standard banking/brokerage phrases, as well).

OK......I think most of what IMM requires is a bunch of arbitrary boolsht anyway, given the differences in local requirements, but if you are ever in dealings with a notary, don't ask Carlos' daughter to translate for you. It won't fly.
What I mean is, some things require an "Official Translation." Those are only done by Official Translators, college trained and licensed as well as proudly displaying the title of Licenciado in front of their name.
Evidently, the forms being filled out at IMM arn't among those because, to my knowledge, neither Carlos or his daughter is an official translator.

[Edited on 11-30-2012 by DENNIS]

DENNIS - 11-29-2012 at 07:10 PM

Let me just clear up a point before someone wants to say "Licenciado" is a title denoting an attorney. That is a common misconception:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate#Mexico

.

[Edited on 11-30-2012 by DENNIS]

MsTerieus - 11-29-2012 at 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
OK......I think most of what IMM requires is a bunch of arbitrary boolsht anyway, given the differences in local requirements, but if you are ever in dealings with a notary, don't ask Carlos' daughter to translate for you. It won't fly.
What I mean is, some things require an "Official Translation." Those are only done by Official Translators, college trained and licensed as well as proudly displaying the title of Licenciado in front of their name.
Evidently, the forms being filled out at IMM arn't among those because, to my knowledge, neither Carlos or his daughter is an official translator.

[Edited on 11-30-2012 by DENNIS]

I agree with you about the BS. And I am not aware of any "forms" at INM that require translation - official or no. Just bank statements, and the like, showing financial eligibility need to be translated. As I think I said at some point, Carlos actually had advised me to translate them MYSELF and/or get a friend to help (because he would only do it in connection with handling the entire application process for me, and I'd done everything else). I do find the requirement a bit odd: you'd think even educated people in Mexico could figure out what a Charles Schwab or Smith Barney statement (in English) says.

DENNIS - 11-29-2012 at 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MsTerieus
you'd think even educated people in Mexico could figure out what a Charles Schwab or Smith Barney statement (in English) says.

That's a joke. Right??

DENNIS - 11-30-2012 at 02:25 PM

Anything new out there?