BajaNomad

Quinceañeras In Mexico (15th Birthdays)

Bajatripper - 12-22-2012 at 09:04 AM

My daughter celebrated her 15th birthday last summer. Had she been staying the summer at her mother’s place in Washington, she would have had a get-together with ten or fifteen of her friends at either the youth center at the local military base or at the city’s bowling alley. It would have been a low-key informal affair and they’d have eaten pizza and perhaps some lumpia (a filipino party favorite) made by her mother.

If my ex-wife had succeeded in convincing me to let her take my daughter with her to visit family in the Philippines over the summer, the celebration—if there was one—would have been a small affair and my daughter would have spent the occasion surrounded by people she couldn’t understand, sweltering in some first-rate tropical heat.

But my daughter, who spent most of her formative years living with Bajalera and me in Mexico, celebrated her Quinceañera (15th birthday) in La Paz.

For those who don’t know it, the Quinceañera has traditionally been the Big Birthday Event for young ladies in Mexico. Interestingly, no such coming-of-age party is held for young men. By tradition fourteen-year-old Mexican girls magically become señoritas on their 15th birthday. On that day, they’re transformed from little kids not to be taken too seriously into young ladies who are allowed to dance at social gatherings and go on dates with young suitors, under the watchful eye of a chaperon, of course. Families of means were expected to throw a huge formal affair full of ritual and symbolism to officially present their eligible bachelorettes to society. Such occasions have often been used by families to create new political ties or resurrect old ones with prominent local families and the guest lists frequently included more friends of the celebrant’s parents than of her own. The young lady’s padrinos (godparents) were often selected with an eye to social or political connections. To pay for the affair, it wasn’t (and still isn’t) unusual for less well-off families to assume loans that could take years to repay. But if all went well, the celebration could be seen as an investment in the family’s future.

Although the Quinceañera is no longer what it once was (what is?), the party can still be a heavy economic burden for many families. Often, middle class folks begin saving and planning for the event a couple of years in advance—or, at least the girl’s mother does. With three months to go, the family has reserved the salon de eventos (social hall) where the affair is to be held and made an appointment at the family church for a Quinceañera mass to be held on or near the birthdate. A person with dancing experience is hired to choreograph a vals (waltz) and perhaps a baile sorpresa (surprise dance) to be performed for the guests by the birthday girl and a few of her closest male friends (for the waltz). The music and choreography for the two dances is a carefully guarded secret in the weeks leading up to the event. Often, a video production company is contacted to make a video collage of images of the young lady as she grew up and to take video at the event itself. A Quinceañera dress is bought or ordered from a trusted seamstress and a pair of high-heeded shoes—traditionally the young lady’s first—are bought. In the week before her birthday, the birthday girl poses for a formal portrait in full regalia. In the past, these pictures were for el recuerdo (the memory), but in more recent times such photographs are enlarged, framed and mounted at the entrance to the salon de eventos for the guests’ viewing as they arrive. These days, many Quinceañeras have a theme, my daughter's was "Carnaval" so masks were provided to the guests.

On the day of the Big Event, the Quinceañera is taken to a beautician to have her hair and nails done and makeup applied before putting on her quinceañera dress and going to mass at a local church. The celebrant can be taken to church in the family sedan (although it will usually be treated to a good detailing and adorned with flowers) or a car may be hired for the occasion. The celebration of the mass, known as an action de gracia (giving thanks), marks the official beginning of the day’s festivities. At the mass, the young lady gains another padrino and madrina in her life (Mexicans typically acquire godparents when they are baptized and when they do their First Communion). While guests are encouraged to attend the mass, many don’t bother, especially men.

After the mass, the young lady is loaded up in the car and taken away while the people begin arriving at the salon de eventos for the party, which is by invitation only with controlled access. The event is usually a formal affair with fine line, chair slip covers and perhaps a floral arrangement. Music can be live or provided by a contracted DJ de luz y sonido (light and sound DJ) and is often a combination of both. Guests are usually seated as they arrive and offered a drink while they wait for the Quinceañera to make her grand entrance. Each table includes a centerpiece that is meant to be taken by one of those seated at the table as a remembrance of the event. This can vary from something made at home with the girl’s name on it to a lavish crystal piece. Women or young girls are the ones who usually take them home.

The guests clap when the young lady is finally ushered in and begins to perform her personalized waltz accompanied by her chamberlanes. The waltz is a sort of “coming of age” ritualized affair that involves her passing amongst the boys until she settles with one. After the waltz, the Quinceañera takes a seat at center stage and her father comes out and kneels before her, taking off the shoes she has been wearing up until now (usually casual shoes), and replacing them with her first pair of high heels, symbolizing her coming of age. Once the shoes are in place, the two of them will share a dance together, her first official dance in the adult world. At some point, the padrino will butt in to take over the dance and he will often be followed by the girl’s uncles, cousins and brothers. After this song is over, if she has chosen to, the celebrant will dance the “baile sorpresa,” which is usually a modern, heavily-choreographed dance. After this, the floor is open to dancing before dinner is served.

At least, that is how quinceañeras have traditionally been celebrated in Mexico (with the exception of the baile sorpresa, which seems to be a recent addition). Since we have three kids that are in the age group, we have attended several quinceañeras in the last couple of years and have noted how they are changing since I attended them in my younger days. As many of the city’s salon de eventos now have pools, pool parties—previously unheard of—are becoming more popular. At a couple of the recent quinceañeras we attended it was painfully obvious that the party was really something the mother wanted for herself, which left the birthday girl feeling like she hadn’t even celebrated her own birthday. Instead of hosting the traditional party, some families we know have offered their daughters the choice of a car or travel abroad (one went to Disneyland with her family)—likely to avoid all of the headaches that go with putting on such an affair.

For my own daughter’s Quinceañera, we had an amalgam of the traditional Mexican celebration with liberal gringo leanings, which included the omitting of several of the traditional aspects of the affair. Since we aren’t particularly religious in our family, we opted out of the mass and passed up the chance to add to the godparent list (she only has one set). Because our place is quite large and has a pool, we decided to host the event at home, although we did rent tables and chairs and accompanying accoutrements for the occasion. My mother-in-law and sister-in-law are excellent professional seamstresses, so each made a part of my daughter’s dress and my wife added her own touches to it. With the advent of MP3 technology, my daughter had no problem burning several CDs of her favorite music and we used the family stereo for sound. I cooked lasagna salad and garlic bread for seventy people and a good friend provided the cake, which was beautiful and simply delicious.

The guests all seemed to enjoy the party, many leaving only after I turned off the music at 2 a.m. (I turned it down at 11 p.m.). Most important to me, my daughter had a great time and was much appreciative of the family effort it took to host the event.

But I’m sure glad I only have one daughter.

My Proud Quinceañera


With her "chamberlans" two of whom are her brothers


The Grand Entrance


Dancing the Waltz


Her first Official Dance with the Old Man. That was a touching moment for me since she knew just what to say


Dancing the Baile Sorpresa


The Birthday cake, complements of a good friend


The center pieces for the table, given away

DENNIS - 12-22-2012 at 09:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajatripper
For those who don’t know it, the Quinceañera has traditionally been the Big Birthday Event for young ladies in Mexico. Interestingly, no such coming-of-age party is held for young men. By tradition fourteen-year-old Mexican girls magically become señoritas on their 15th birthday. On that day, they’re transformed from little kids not to be taken too seriously into young ladies who are allowed to dance at social gatherings and go on dates with young suitors, under the watchful eye of a chaperon, of course. Families of means were expected to throw a huge formal affair full of ritual and symbolism to officially present their eligible bachelorettes to society.



A more indelicate term for the event is "Puberty Rites." Our culture has a similar celebration called a "Debutante Ball," but, again, in our case, passage into womanhood seems to be reserved for the well-to-do, and blue collar candidates need not apply. One girl's country club is another's drive-in movie.



.

[Edited on 12-22-2012 by DENNIS]

watizname - 12-22-2012 at 09:39 AM

Oh,-- STUFFIT Dennis.

Congrats Tripper. You have every right to be proud.

Ateo - 12-22-2012 at 10:20 AM

Very cool and unique post. Thanks Bajatripper.

willardguy - 12-22-2012 at 10:38 AM

so up until they're 15 they are chica's is that correct? and when does a senorita become a senora? :?:

jbcoug - 12-22-2012 at 10:47 AM

Tripper,

Thanks for sharing a once in a lifetime event. Very impressive! Beautiful daughter and proud dad make for a pretty awesome day.

John

Terry28 - 12-22-2012 at 10:49 AM

That is one beautiful young lady..You have every right to be proud!!

DENNIS - 12-22-2012 at 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by watizname
Oh,-- STUFFIT Dennis.



I guess you never took an Anthropology class in college. Look up that big word if it leaves you confused. It's spelled C-o-l-l-e-g-e.

capt. mike - 12-22-2012 at 11:10 AM

biggest one i ever saw was at Serenidad. Dad was a rico contractor. Spent thousands - good for Johnson.
Band played till 4:00 am.....no sleep that night.

David K - 12-22-2012 at 11:11 AM

Thank you Steve (BajaTripper) for the look at the event... happened just several days after we were there at your beautiful La Paz home.

How fortunate that your daughter could have her birthday in La Paz and be with her friends and most of her family.

watizname - 12-22-2012 at 11:23 AM

I guess I should have written STUFF IT. Your remark just sounded a little
S-N-I-D-E to me. :P

Udo - 12-22-2012 at 11:51 AM

Thanks for the history background, Steve.

We are invited to a Quinceañera this afternoon (as well as the night).

Shari explained what the story is behind the celebration, but your written explanation is quite detailed.

Mil Gracias!

TMW - 12-22-2012 at 11:59 AM

Great, thanks for sharing. A proud young lady and a very proud dad.

DENNIS - 12-22-2012 at 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by watizname
I guess I should have written STUFF IT. Your remark just sounded a little
S-N-I-D-E to me. :P


Nothing snide intended....only background on one tradition as practiced in different cultures.
Tripper is an Anthropologist and I'm sure he took no offense. I would hope not, anyway.

Modern Rites

EnsenadaDr - 12-22-2012 at 12:25 PM

What a beautiful girl and what a wonderful dad to do that for her. It looks like you went all out!! I plan on giving my daughter her Quinceanera in Mexico. She as well grew up in Mexico. And the only rites that I will observe is the right to keep my daughter's mind occupied with education and other interests till she so she has a fighting chance to support herself in this world. Puberty may be a physical readiness to bear children, but a parent with any brains wouldn't allow their young adolescent to get herself in a situation that would make that a reality. So I agree with DENNIS that rite is ancient and hopefully in our day and age, stays in the history books of anthropology. If other parents allow their girls to get precocious, then they are not fulfilling their obligations as parents. It happens, and when it does, it is heartbreaking.
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by watizname
I guess I should have written STUFF IT. Your remark just sounded a little
S-N-I-D-E to me. :P


Nothing snide intended....only background on one tradition as practiced in different cultures.
Tripper is an Anthropologist and I'm sure he took no offense. I would hope not, anyway.

EnsenadaDr - 12-22-2012 at 12:29 PM

A senora is generally a married woman. I did ask that question to some local Mexicans, and generally it doesn't depend on age, it is more when they are actually married. If you see an older woman you would say Senora because in the Mexican culture you would assume they are married. Chica is a slang word, mostly the corrrect word for girl is muchacha. Like Steve, I am sure, our daughters are precious to us and our little princesses, and we want the best for them.
Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
so up until they're 15 they are chica's is that correct? and when does a senorita become a senora? :?:

Bajatripper - 12-22-2012 at 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
so up until they're 15 they are chica's is that correct? and when does a senorita become a senora? :?:


Officially, when they get married. But "señorita" is also reserved, informally, for use with virgins. On ranches in the interior I've heard people say of young unmarried ladies "ya no es señorita" (she is no longer a señorita) in reference to women who had "relaciones" already.

shari - 12-22-2012 at 12:36 PM

wonderful detailed post on a very important cultural event...and what a lovely daughter...I bet she loved the ritual. It is most girls dream party and even poor folks save for a long long time and can spend thousands on the 2 day event.

One other thing they do here is the girl/woman stands up on a chair and it blindfolded or covers her eyes as the damitas and little girls dance around her in a cirlce...she waves a Barbie doll over her head and throws it back....kind of like throwing the bouquet in a wedding. The lucky girl who catches it gets a beautiful big fancy Barbie to keep...this signifies the throwing away of her childhood dolls.

The tradition here is to have a big feast the following day to feed everyone...all the hung over folks who danced till 3-4 in the morning...so it is a 2 day event.

We are thrilled that Udo & Jana will join us tonight and see it in person...it will be good to dance a cumbia with Iflyfish too!

Bajatripper - 12-22-2012 at 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by watizname
I guess I should have written STUFF IT. Your remark just sounded a little
S-N-I-D-E to me. :P


Nothing snide intended....only background on one tradition as practiced in different cultures.
Tripper is an Anthropologist and I'm sure he took no offense. I would hope not, anyway.


None whatsoever, Dennis. Finding out how little a degree in anthropology is actually worth now that I'm job searching. I'm thinking of taking up truck driving, that seems to pay pretty well:lol:

Bajatripper - 12-22-2012 at 12:44 PM

Thank you all for your positive comments, my daughter will enjoy reading them later today. I figured this would be another of my "three-comment" posts, but wanted to do it anyway.

shari - 12-22-2012 at 12:46 PM

my daughter opted for a car by the way although we did throw her a fun party at the beach in San Roque too....just not the fancy dancey deal...although I think sometimes she regrets her choice.

willardguy - 12-22-2012 at 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
wonderful detailed post on a very important cultural event...and what a lovely daughter...I bet she loved the ritual. It is most girls dream party and even poor folks save for a long long time and can spend thousands on the 2 day event.

One other thing they do here is the girl/woman stands up on a chair and it blindfolded or covers her eyes as the damitas and little girls dance around her in a cirlce...she waves a Barbie doll over her head and throws it back....kind of like throwing the bouquet in a wedding. The lucky girl who catches it gets a beautiful big fancy Barbie to keep...this signifies the throwing away of her childhood dolls.

The tradition here is to have a big feast the following day to feed everyone...all the hung over folks who danced till 3-4 in the morning...so it is a 2 day event.

We are thrilled that Udo & Jana will join us tonight and see it in person...it will be good to dance a cumbia with Iflyfish too!
will there be a jug of ricea at the celebration?:coolup:

DENNIS - 12-22-2012 at 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
A senora is generally a married woman. I did ask that question to some local Mexicans, and generally it doesn't depend on age, it is more when they are actually married.


Age can be a factor as well. One wouldn't address a middle age, unmarried woman as señorita [although some may whisper it among themselves]. It would be worse than rude, alluding to her inability to attain a certain station in life expected of one her age.
In Mexico, respect for tradition is everything.





.


[Edited on 12-22-2012 by DENNIS]

DENNIS - 12-22-2012 at 01:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajatripper
I'm thinking of taking up truck driving, that seems to pay pretty well:lol:


Sounds good, Steve. Eric Hoffer drove a forklift.........proudly.

oladulce - 12-23-2012 at 05:05 AM

Please keep your great Mexican culture posts coming Bajatripper.

We were surprised yesterday when the Father came to our house and invited us to his daughter's 2-day Quinceañera next week since we don't know them extremely well. Never been to one before. Understanding some of the traditions you mention in your post will make the event more enjoyable.

Do guests bring a gift to a Quinceañera?

monoloco - 12-23-2012 at 07:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oladulce
Please keep your great Mexican culture posts coming Bajatripper.

We were surprised yesterday when the Father came to our house and invited us to his daughter's 2-day Quinceañera next week since we don't know them extremely well. Never been to one before. Understanding some of the traditions you mention in your post will make the event more enjoyable.

Do guests bring a gift to a Quinceañera?
Just be careful if someone asks you to be Madrina, suddenly you will find yourself expected to buy the cake or the dress.

DianaT - 12-23-2012 at 09:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
Quote:
Originally posted by oladulce
Please keep your great Mexican culture posts coming Bajatripper.

We were surprised yesterday when the Father came to our house and invited us to his daughter's 2-day Quinceañera next week since we don't know them extremely well. Never been to one before. Understanding some of the traditions you mention in your post will make the event more enjoyable.

Do guests bring a gift to a Quinceañera?
Just be careful if someone asks you to be Madrina, suddenly you will find yourself expected to buy the cake or the dress.


Our experience in BA has been that everyone in the town, and all visitors are invited to the weddings, wakes, quinceañeras and weddings. Notices are posted around town of the events. With the quinceañera, few seem to attend the church ceremony which is beautiful and quite moving and I am not a Catholic. The fiesta is different--- lots of people attend. :-) We have had family come to our home to make sure we understand that EVERYONE is invited.

With quinceañeras we handle the gift giving the same as we handle it for any birthday parties we attend. We usually have a gift, but we keep it in the car to see what is happening. If there are lots of gifts, we add ours, or if not, we wait and give it in private. For many birthdays, people invite others to share the cake and friendship, but gifts are not expected as many really cannot afford them and just being there is what is important.

One thing we have found that is always appreciated is photos. Lots of people take lots of photos, but prints are different. So we will take lots of photos, put them on a DVD and print out several for the family if you can. If we know a family well, we will offer other assistance; if not, the photos are still very appreciated. In offering assistance, even things like filling a propane tank, giving them toilet paper, coffee, etc., can be important when they have a house full of family from out of town!

If you were invited to the second day of festivities, that is different. That is reserved for family and those they consider good friends; again, at least from what we have experienced in our area. It is a time to get to know everyone better even though by that time most everyone is exhausted. We once did not attend the second day of a wedding celebration to which we were invited as we thought they had enough on their hands with the family, and that was a big mistake on our part. The Doña of the family was a bit hurt.

Bajatripper, your daughter is beautiful and what a beautiful celebration. I used to be a bit cynical about the purpose of these celebrations, but now I just really enjoy them. Even with lots of help from friends and families, these celebrations can really wipe out the family financially for a while. But it is also a great time for big family reunions and all being together is what is really important to most of them. Today, I see these celebrations as more about family, friends; the really important things in life.

Again, this is just our experience in one small area of Baja.

[Edited on 12-23-2012 by DianaT]

EnsenadaDr - 12-23-2012 at 09:59 AM

I guess you missed the word generally. Actually, Dennis I have seen professionals address women as "senorita" in middle age, and they quite like it and are flattered. What station in life are you talking about that Senora signifies?
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
A senora is generally a married woman. I did ask that question to some local Mexicans, and generally it doesn't depend on age, it is more when they are actually married.


Age can be a factor as well. One wouldn't address a middle age, unmarried woman as señorita [although some may whisper it among themselves]. It would be worse than rude, alluding to her inability to attain a certain station in life expected of one her age.
In Mexico, respect for tradition is everything.





.


[Edited on 12-22-2012 by DENNIS]

capt. mike - 12-23-2012 at 10:01 AM

wonders if this tradition has to do with in earlier times many girls married early like 16 or 17??

Bajatripper - 12-23-2012 at 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oladulce
Please keep your great Mexican culture posts coming Bajatripper.

We were surprised yesterday when the Father came to our house and invited us to his daughter's 2-day Quinceañera next week since we don't know them extremely well. Never been to one before. Understanding some of the traditions you mention in your post will make the event more enjoyable.

Do guests bring a gift to a Quinceañera?


It is an honor to be invited to a Quinceañera, since in most of them seating and food is limited. An Aside, I've noticed many Mexicans like to have a gringo friend, it can up the family's status. I've also noticed how many of my countrymen like to be "adopted" by a Mexican family, so I guess that's a two-way street.

An yes, you should take a present.

Bajatripper - 12-23-2012 at 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
Just be careful if someone asks you to be Madrina, suddenly you will find yourself expected to buy the cake or the dress.


Truer words have seldom been spoken. Using the "compadrazco" (Madrinas and Padrinos) is one way many families make such occasions more affordable--by splitting up the expenses among them.

805gregg - 12-23-2012 at 10:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
wonders if this tradition has to do with in earlier times many girls married early like 16 or 17??


That's it exactly, and old tradition that is no longer needed. Anouncing that your daughter is of age to marry. My daughter did not come out at 15, more like 18.

DENNIS - 12-23-2012 at 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I guess you missed the word generally. Actually, Dennis I have seen professionals address women as "senorita" in middle age, and they quite like it and are flattered.


Those are men dressed as women. Of course they like it. Their disguise for the day was well appointed.

DENNIS - 12-23-2012 at 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
wonders if this tradition has to do with in earlier times many girls married early like 16 or 17??


Isn't the tradition imported from Spain?

Once read that 70% of conjugal unions in Mexico are Common Law. This is a nation of Shacker-Upers.
I guess it's OK with the Catholic Church.

EnsenadaDr - 12-23-2012 at 02:08 PM

There are men that age dressed up as women as well, and they like it when the women call them "hermosa",
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I guess you missed the word generally. Actually, Dennis I have seen professionals address women as "senorita" in middle age, and they quite like it and are flattered.


Those are men dressed as women. Of course they like it. Their disguise for the day was well appointed.

greengoes - 12-23-2012 at 02:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
so up until they're 15 they are chica's is that correct? and when does a senorita become a senora? :?:


When she is casado (married).

DENNIS - 12-23-2012 at 02:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by greengoes
When she is casado (married).



More gender confusion. Better use an "A" at the end of "casada" if it belongs to a she. :lol:
Jes Kiddin'. I'm not the spelling cop around here.

willardguy - 12-23-2012 at 02:32 PM

okay, so you meet a lady thats, say 20 to 40 years old. you have no idea if she's married or not, how is she addressed?

[Edited on 12-23-2012 by willardguy]

Iflyfish - 12-23-2012 at 03:05 PM

Great thread. Went to my first last night, very moving. I thought about your reflections on what your daughters right of passage might have been like had she gone to the Philippines or had a traditional American Birthday Party. Very lucky girl to have this sort of affirmation and experience of a lifetime.

I am a father of a daughter and grandfather to a granddaughter and parts of the ceremony moved me deeply. A profound rite of passage, pageantry, linked to ancient history, bonding families and communities as well as acknowledging the transition from childhood to adulthood. I am glad I experienced this in a small village where tradition still reins. Time and tradition move on as the word culture becomes homogenized. We are blessed to be able to be part of a ancient living tradition when we participate in these events.

Iflyfishwithdreamsofbarbiedollshighheelsandoompabands

willardguy - 12-23-2012 at 03:11 PM

now thats my idea of fly fishing!

Iflyfishwithdreamsofbarbiedollshighheelsandoompabands

Iflyfish - 12-23-2012 at 03:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
now thats my idea of fly fishing!

Iflyfishwithdreamsofbarbiedollshighheelsandoompabands


I left out the tiara, you can add that if you wish.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 12-23-2012 at 03:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
okay, so you meet a lady thats, say 20 to 40 years old. you have no idea if she's married or not, how is she addressed?



Twenty may be close to the line and depend on the individual.....as well as her intentions, but thirty to forty.......Señora. If she feels you should be corrected, she'll do just that.

EnsenadaDr - 12-23-2012 at 03:27 PM

Dennis how all of a sudden are you an expert on Mexican women??
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by greengoes
When she is casado (married).



More gender confusion. Better use an "A" at the end of "casada" if it belongs to a she. :lol:
Jes Kiddin'. I'm not the spelling cop around here.

Iflyfish - 12-23-2012 at 03:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
There are men that age dressed up as women as well, and they like it when the women call them "hermosa",
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I guess you missed the word generally. Actually, Dennis I have seen professionals address women as "senorita" in middle age, and they quite like it and are flattered.


Those are men dressed as women. Of course they like it. Their disguise for the day was well appointed.


Sex is assigned at birth, doc looks and says "this one is closer to female/male lets call him/her a girl or boy". There are lots of anatomical anomalies. There are people born with both sets of sex organs and are called Hermaphrodite. There are lots of different anatomical structures as it is all the same tissue in males and females, just depends upon how it migrates.

Then there are children born who feel they are in the wrong bodies and their sexual identity does not fit their assigned identity as girl/boy. These folks feel throughout their lives that they are trapped in the wrong body. These folks are called Transexuals.

Gender is a different matter. That has to do with how one identifies themselves. For some men there is a "knowing" that they have a female identity or Gender with in themselves, at the same time having a male Gender identity. These are heterosexual men who at times dress in female garb consistent with their female gender identity. These folks have historically been called Transvestite. They are actually better named BiGendered.

There are also gay men who dress in female clothing and these folks refer to themselves as Drag Queens.

It is not easy for most folks to get their heads around these gender differences because most of us are in the dominant sexes and genders and it is hard to imagine another way of being in the world since or sexual and gender identity are so fundamental to our sense of self.

It is helpful for everyone to understand these differences and to accept that we are indeed a vary diverse organism.

Iflyfishwithwonderatthediversityofhumanbeings

EnsenadaDr - 12-23-2012 at 03:37 PM

I think Dennis was implying that most older women resemble men. It's true that post-menopausal women have less estrogen, but still manufacture testosterone. (Yes, women manufacture 1/10 the amount of testosterone of men) in their bodies.

DENNIS - 12-23-2012 at 03:43 PM

The town of Juchitán, Mexico is a role reversal delegación:

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-03-31/news/mn-49349_1_econo...

http://shop.getty.edu/products/graciela-iturbide-juchitan-97...

http://insidemex.com/people/lifestyle/the-women-juchitan

DENNIS - 12-23-2012 at 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I think Dennis was implying that most older women resemble men.


Stop it. :fire:

Iflyfish - 12-23-2012 at 04:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
The town of Juchitán, Mexico is a role reversal delegación:

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-03-31/news/mn-49349_1_econo...

http://shop.getty.edu/products/graciela-iturbide-juchitan-97...

http://insidemex.com/people/lifestyle/the-women-juchitan


Great links Dennis. I really appreciated the third one where the BiGendered invite the writer to their party.

Diversity enriches us, bigotry and ignorance impoverish us.

Social norms powerfully affect how accepting we are of our diversity and this is why there are so many suicides among transgendered youth in the US, social ostracism and abuse. The more people understand the better off we all become. We need our tribe. This thread is about a cultural ritual that supports a young person adapting their adult social role in society. Unfortunately this sort of process is not available to many youth who do not fit the gender stereotypes. It is heartening to read of at least one village in Mexico where the transgendered are given honor and respect.

Iflyfishinaweofourdiversity

DENNIS - 12-23-2012 at 04:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
It is heartening to read of at least one village in Mexico where the transgendered are given honor and respect.

Iflyfishinaweofourdiversity


I guess they run the place, Rick. It's either their way or the highway.

Iflyfish - 12-23-2012 at 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I think Dennis was implying that most older women resemble men. It's true that post-menopausal women have less estrogen, but still manufacture testosterone. (Yes, women manufacture 1/10 the amount of testosterone of men) in their bodies.


Indeed men and women do more and more resemble each other as the hormonal continuum shifts with age and for men decrease in testosterone and therefore increased ratios of estrogen/testosterone and women who have decreased estrogen and therefore increased testosterone/estrogen ratios. Many people do not understand the men and women have BOTH male and female hormones and it is the proportions that affect secondary sexual characteristics.

I don't mean to hijack this very interesting and fascinating thread about a very ancient Mexican Cultural tradition, but sex ROLE differentiation often stimulates thinking about sex and gender. After all this event is a social dramatization of a sexual role differentiation, from girl to marriageable woman. The dancing with first her father then subsequent male family members and then potential suitors marks this transition from child to woman to wife/mother.

Iflyfishfascinatedbyculturaldifferences

Iflyfish - 12-23-2012 at 04:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
It is heartening to read of at least one village in Mexico where the transgendered are given honor and respect.

Iflyfishinaweofourdiversity


I guess they run the place, Rick. It's either their way or the highway.


Cooperation is what got us out of the caves Dennis.

Iflyfishalonesomedays

Bajatripper - 12-23-2012 at 05:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by willardguy
okay, so you meet a lady thats, say 20 to 40 years old. you have no idea if she's married or not, how is she addressed?

[Edited on 12-23-2012 by willardguy]


If in doubt, go with señorita, if she isn't, she'll still likely take it as a complement. To err in the other direction can be insulting to some.

DENNIS - 12-23-2012 at 05:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajatripper
If in doubt, go with señorita, if she isn't, she'll still likely take it as a complement. To err in the other direction can be insulting to some.



Well....there's always the time honored, "Hey....you."

Bajatripper - 12-24-2012 at 07:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS

Well....there's always the time honored, "Hey....you."


Would that be "hey...tú" or "oiga...usted"?:lol:

capt. mike - 12-24-2012 at 10:38 AM

are not the Spanish words for married and handcuffs closely the same?

DENNIS - 12-24-2012 at 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
are not the Spanish words for married and handcuffs closely the same?


Close.
Handcuffs====Esposas [wives]