BajaNomad - For a Greater Glory

For a Greater Glory

Pescador - 5-3-2013 at 05:54 PM

A good friend loaned me a DVD of the movie "A Greater Glory" which captured my attention from the very beginning and held it there for the entire movie. I am a student of history but must admit I had heard nothing of this conflict where Calles, President of Mexico, basically outlawed the Catholic Church and tried through Military action to close down and stop the influence of Catholicism in Mexico around the 1925 period. If you want to enlighten yourself about Mexico history and reflect on what lengths the government might go to to influence thought and culture, then this is a must see.

Many people of faith today are asking, “What is the price of religious liberty?” In the 1920’s many Catholics in Mexico answered this crucial question at the cost of their very lives. The new major motion picture, For Greater Glory: The True Story of Cristiada tells the epic tale of Mexico’s heroic struggle for religious freedom in a little-known conflict called the Cristero War – but many questions still remain. Now you’ll go much deeper into the exciting history behind the movie with this fact-filled companion book – and gain important insight into the on-going fight for religious freedom today. This is the Official Companion Book to the epic film. Lavishly illustrated with photos from the film and with historical photos.

The Catholics are the Good Guys ?

MrBillM - 5-3-2013 at 06:22 PM

HM !

THAT would be difficult to accept.

DENNIS - 5-3-2013 at 06:56 PM

One of the few Graham Greene novels I've read, "The Power and The Glory" concerns this time in Mexico. An excellent read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_and_the_Glory

As a result of the separation of church and state brought on by the Cristero movement, there were many restrictions for the church that are still evidenced today. You don't see priests in public wearing Roman Collars or any other vestiges of the church. In fact, around thirty years back, when the Pope made a visit to Mexico, there had to be special considerations from congress given so he could wear his robes and stuff in public.

DENNIS - 5-3-2013 at 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM

The Catholics are the Good Guys ?

HM !

THAT would be difficult to accept.

No No...they weren't. The priests were hunted like dogs and killed on sight.
All devotional gatherings were illegal and clandestine.

Pescador - 5-4-2013 at 07:09 AM

The part I found the most interesting was that hardly anybody knows about this war. It has been definately played down or surpressed from the general population. It was very common knowledge how the former USSR shut down the Christian churches when they came to power and equally obvious in N-zi Germany, but this seems to be a little known fact and is even a little difficult to find much information when googled or followed on the internet.
I have downloaded the book and it looks to very informative, but the movie is nothing short of fantastic and I enjoyed it both times I watched it.

Skipjack Joe - 5-4-2013 at 09:11 AM

The naazis suppressed religion?

Dad told me that every German soldiers belt buckle said "Gott mit uns".

Why was it well known that the Soviets were atheists? It served a purpose. To demonize your political adversary.

capt. mike - 5-4-2013 at 09:20 AM

i saw it when it came to netflix. Andy Garcia was great. the movie got poor reviews but for history it is an important work.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-4-2013 at 10:56 AM

Pescador;\

Very good Information about mexico.

If you really want to get into the Revolution go into the History of who Started it.
You will find that Freemasonry had a lot to do with it. For the Internet Goggle up'FreeMasonry and the Mexican Revolution:;

FreeMasonry is very strong in Baja Sur and La Paz and constitution.
There is a 32nd Degree Temple in La Paz and several Lodges.

Benito Juarez was a Mason also.

Up until Salinas Gatoria came in as president all of the churchs had a sign on them stating"Federal Property."

When Constitution was formed the Mexican Govt. Brought over complete Lodges from the mainland to get the Farming started.While I was in Loreto there were 7 new lodges formed around Constitution.

It makes for some good reading about the "silent" Power of Free masonry in Mexico/

vgabndo - 5-4-2013 at 01:38 PM

Skipjack, you are absolutely correct. Pescador has fallen victim to the pervasive lie, created by Christians, that the German Republic was in some way non-Christian after 1934. Such an argument shows no grasp of history or any evidence of a study of German demographics at that time.

I have found that in 1934 as many as 94% of Germans were Christians. They were divided approximately 60% Catholic, and 40% Lutheran. Like the un-constitutional "one nation under God" pledge that the Christians have insinuated into the US culture, The Germans had TWO such pledges, but they were legal! Here's the first:

The Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty to Adolf Hitler, 2 August 1934
"I swear by God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath."

Here is the second:

Service oath for public servants
I swear: I will be faithful and obedient to the leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, to observe the law, and to conscientiously fulfill my official duties, so help me God!

Given that the clear majority of Germans were then delusional about a Christian god, I can only assume that the "God" referred to in these government approved, universal, pledges is in fact the god of Abraham. The same one currently responsible for Global Holy War.

Perhaps, Pescador, you can suggest another theory which explains how a government committed to wiping out Christianity was TOTALLY under the control of the same delusion when it came time to swear a sacred oath to die in the name of Hitler?

Christianity has a history of unbridled violence, and they seem to take great pride in it. Just read the Old Testiment! What more hideous kind of society, what more inhuman history, could the iron age authors of the Bible have invented?

That Mexico has put the religious delusion of Hernan Cortez and his murdering Christians in its proper place is a triumph of the oppressed people over the priests of the invaders. I have heard of tours of Mexican churches where the visits are like one to a museum of a bygone era of ignorance and superstition.

I think that is progress. Allowing a lie about the history of the genocidal Germans of the 1930's and 40's to stand unchallenged is NOT progress.

The Voltaire quote below STILL speaks volumes and pure truth!

edit to place a missing article.

[Edited on 5-4-2013 by vgabndo]

Ateo - 5-4-2013 at 02:12 PM

well said vgabndo and ALL OF IT is supported by evidence.

Adolf and the Christians

MrBillM - 5-4-2013 at 07:21 PM

It's pretty misleading to note that the vast majority of Germans were Christian and equate THAT with Reich support of Christianity.

The opposite was the case. The*N-zis were faced with the PROBLEM of a Christian nation and USED Christianity as needed to maintain the loyalty of the populace while viewing the Church with hostility. Adolf was THEIR God. Jesus was a competitor.

There have been myriad books and documentaries examining the tension between the Reich and the Church.

From Wikipedia:

" Unlike some other Fascist movements of the era, N-zi ideology was essentially hostile to Christianity and clashed with Christian beliefs in many respects.

N-zism saw the Christian ideals of meekness and conscience as obstacles to the violent instincts required to defeat other races. According to Blainey, Hitler was an atheist who, while seeing some political advantage in temporary allegiances with Christians, ultimately believed "one is either a Christian or a German" - to be both was impossible. According to Bullock, Hitler "believed neither in God nor in conscience ('a Jewish invention, a blemish like circumcission')". Bullock wrote that "once the war was over, [Hitler] promised himself, he would root out and destroy the influence of the Christian churches, but until then he would be circumspect..........."

vgabndo - 5-4-2013 at 08:27 PM

Pescador's claim, one step removed from the Russians, was that Germany "closed down the churches". That is not true. That the fascist government took advantage of the gullibility of their Christian population is true. A contemporary example of this is easy to find.

A predominantly Christian population put on the uniforms, and spoke the HOLY oaths, and went forth as the master race to slay 20 million Russians, and a good portion of the Jews. See: Voltaire

The only German Christians that I've heard of to take a hit from Hitler were the Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't know why.

Ateo - 5-4-2013 at 08:57 PM

From Mein Kampf:

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." - Adolf Hitler

And in 1938, Hitler declared, "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

Also, the N-zi belt buckle had "God with us" etched on it.

This was taken from Iron Chariots.org

I know that this thread isn't all about Adolf the a hole, I'm just responding to the above posts.

Love you all.

Ateo

DianaT - 5-4-2013 at 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Pescador's claim, one step removed from the Russians, was that Germany "closed down the churches". That is not true. That the fascist government took advantage of the gullibility of their Christian population is true. A contemporary example of this is easy to find.

A predominantly Christian population put on the uniforms, and spoke the HOLY oaths, and went forth as the master race to slay 20 million Russians, and a good portion of the Jews. See: Voltaire

The only German Christians that I've heard of to take a hit from Hitler were the Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't know why.

From the history I have read, many of the local nuns and priests were persecuted for their protection of local Jewish and other populations and paid the price -- but the "CHURCH" was quite silent and therefore quite guilty in what happened. There is always a difference between the "official church" and the local ministers of faith. It was also quite the case in places like Guatemala.

Gees, every country goes to war with "GOD" on their side. Even in our Civil War, there were churches that split over the issue of slavery --- some saying it was wrong and some saying the bible supported slavery.

Hitler played the churches for everything and only persecuted the individuals who saw things differently.

[Edited on 5-5-2013 by DianaT]

CortezBlue - 5-5-2013 at 08:42 AM

I also liked the movie, from an historical perspective, but to see a Cubano play a Mexicano, was worth an Emmy! :lol:

PS is one of the scenes you can see Andy Garcias putter in the background! :biggrin:

[Edited on 5-5-2013 by CortezBlue]

DENNIS - 5-5-2013 at 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
From the history I have read, many of the local nuns and priests

Did they even have nuns around then? Today, they seem to be immune to the restrictions on dress that the priests are held to.
Penguins in the super markets.

Bajatripper - 5-5-2013 at 09:02 PM

Haven't seen the movie yet, but will. What many Americans (and even some Mexicans) don't realize is that, historically speaking, the Catholic Church had been one of the most powerful and dominant forces in Mexico in all areas of national life. In addition to holding vast tracts of lands that had been taken from indigenous communities and which were used to keep people subservient to Church interests, much of the nation's banking was controlled by the Church. It was a time when whoever ruled Mexico did so at the pleasure of the Military and the Catholic Church.
That was one of the things that President Juarez sought to change in the mid-1800s when he tried to make Mexico a secular state with public education available to all (as a child, he had studied in a seminary as the only recourse available for a poor kid in Mexico).

Although I don't care much for President Plutarco Elias Calles (he was nothing more than a ruthless dictator who continued to rule through proxy presidents until President Card##as, on assuming the presidency, had him arrested in his bedroom during the middle of the night and taken to the airport and exiled to the US for the remainder of his life), he was only trying to institute the reforms of the new Constitution and break the hold the Catholic Church held on the nation's policies. Members of the Church responded with the continuation of armed conflict after the Revolution known as the Cristero Revolt.

An offshoot of this revolt was felt in Baja California, with the founding of the Sinarquista colony of Maria Auxiliadora in the Valle de Santo Domingo north of La Paz in the 1940s. After the main Cristero Revolt had been squashed, smaller revolts continued. One of these, centered in Michoacán, was known as the Sinarquista Revolt. President Card##as, who was from Michoacán and reluctant to use force on his own people, instead gathered some twenty Sinarquista families and, with government support, sent them to Baja California to form one of the first agricultural colonies in "El Valle," as the region around Ciudad Constitucion is known. These people blazed the first trail from Santo Domingo to San Javier to connect them to Loreto. Although many of the agricultural colonies founded in El Valle were successful, Maria Auxiliadora was not one of them and most of the families--who couldn't adapt to the harsh desert environment--returned to Michoacán within the first few years. Today, one can still visit the church the Sinarquistas built in Maria Auxiliadora, the bricks have a special marking they put into them. If there's any interest expressed here, I'll go through my photos to find pictures of the church and bricks to post.

[Edited on 5-8-2013 by Bajatripper]

Skipjack Joe - 5-5-2013 at 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

FreeMasonry is very strong in Baja Sur and La Paz and constitution.
There is a 32nd Degree Temple in La Paz and several Lodges.

I was surprised to read that 14 of our presidents were Free Masons. Although it seems that it was more common during the 19th century. Their influence seems to be dwindling.

Don't know much about them actually.

--------------------

The N-zis were more into genetics than organized religion. If your religion coincided with an ethnic type you were in trouble. Muslims would not have fared well in N-zi Germany.

N-zi Germany embraced the concept of the overman (ubermensch). This was conceived by Nietzsche in "Thus Spake Zarathustra" (to my knowledge) and misinterpreted by Hitler for his own purposes. Nietzsche looked down on organized religion but considered Jesus Christ as an overman. He saw Christ as a bold and powerful figure. The meek who followed Christ he considered to be sheep, the opposite of what his ideal, the overman, was supposed to be.

Hitler adopted this philosophy and replaced personal merit with genetics and proceeded to annihilate the undermen (untermenschen) of Europe.

Why was there a great deal of public support. Sadly, I don't think the ideas of Mein Kampf were very original. Hitler just put into words what many Germans already thought. He just told them what many had thought for years behind closed doors. It's just his solution that was so brutal and inhumane.

------------------------

There's a big difference in the way the church was treated when separating the church and state vs what the soviets did. They tried to squelch spirituality in any form. The church and state issue was simply a refusal to share political power. I recall a history teacher of mine once telling us that wars over ideas were far more brutal than those over property. I suppose that's still true today.

Pescador - 5-6-2013 at 12:17 PM

After doing a lot more research, I sadly concede to Vagabundo that the N-zi government did not actually set out to shut down the Protestant and Catholic Religions of Germany. They did arrest and raise hell with about 700 people when they tried protesting the treatment of Jews and that pretty much shut down that protest, but officially, Hitler pretty much kept a very tight fisted control over the religious institutions and when they went in line with the concept of Arayan superiority, everyone got along just fine.

vgabndo - 5-6-2013 at 12:18 PM

Prior to studying this period of history (not in the REGULAR books) I was unaware that there was no Vatican City; no seat/home of the Catholic belief system until it became clear to Benito Mussolini that he needed the Catholic sheep to fill the uniforms of his fascist military. Mussolini gave part of Italy to the Catholics in exchange for support for his efforts to out-Hitler the Catholic mad man himself.

I don't have any information about when institutional protection of rump-wrangling Catholic priests began. I can only remember a couple of holy men in modern times that went to prison for their Catholic sex crimes of violence. Paying-off the victims, to keep their hideous crimes against humanity out of open court, DID virtually bankrupt the dioceses of Boston and LA.

You last few practicing Catholics certainly deserve to have your motives questioned in light of 21st. century revelations.

I'm just blown away that an independent nation like the Vatican can continue to preach their nonsense about heaven when the
majority of their 20th century Popes would have to be merrily roasting forever in hell based on their mythology/conduct.

Now, let me tell you about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the only real god, and the only one who boiled for your sins. There is exactly the same evidence for the existence of FSM, but virtually NO evidence that FSM's followers have ever gone on any genocidal binges. That's a better kind of god, I think.

(also tastier to eat with watered-down wine. :lol:

On legislating religion

Skipjack Joe - 5-6-2013 at 01:47 PM

The zenith of soviet stupidity had to be when national hero, Yuri Gagarin, stepped out of his space capsule and reassured everyone the he had not seen a grey haired old man while up there.

How embarassing! How foolish to represent a nation with a dimwit statement like that. That had to bring more people to the church than anything the soviets could have come up with.

David K - 5-7-2013 at 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper
Haven't seen the movie yet, but will. What many of Americans (and even some Mexicans) don't realize is that, historically speaking, the Catholic Church had been one of the most powerful and dominant forces in Mexico in all areas of national life. In addition to holding vast tracts of lands that had been taken from indigenous communities and which were used to keep people subservient to Church interests, much of the nation's banking was controlled by the Church. It was a time when whoever ruled Mexico did so at the pleasure of the Military and the Catholic Church.
That was one of the things that President Juarez sought to change in the mid-1800s when he tried to make Mexico a secular state with public education available to all (as a child, he had studied in a seminary as the only recourse available for a poor kid in Mexico).

Although I don't care much for President Plutarco Elias Calles (he was nothing more than a ruthless dictator who continued to rule through proxy presidents until President Card##as basically had him arrested in his bedroom during the middle of the night, had him taken to the airport and exiled him to the US for the remainder of his life. Seems to me he died in La Jolla, CA), he was only trying to institute the reforms of the new Constitution and break the hold the Catholic Church held on the nation's policies. Members of the Church responded with the continuation of armed conflict after the Revolution known as the Cristero Revolt.

An offshoot of this revolt was felt in Baja California, with the founding of the Sinarquista colony of Maria Auxiliadora in the Valle de Santo Domingo north of La Paz in the 1940s. After the main Cristero Revolt had been squashed, smaller revolts continued. One of these, centered in Michoacán, was known as the Sinarquista Revolt. President Card##as, who was from Michoacán and reluctant to use force on his own people, instead gathered some twenty Sinarquista families and, with government support, sent them to Baja California to form one of the first agricultural colonies in "El Valle," as the region around Ciudad Constitucion is known. These people blazed the first trail from Santo Domingo to San Javier to connect them to Loreto. Although many of the agricultural colonies founded in El Valle were successful, Maria Auxiliadora was not one of them and most of the families--who couldn't adapt to the harsh desert environment--returned to Michoacán within the first few years. Today, one can still visit the church the Sinarquistas built in Maria Auxiliadora, the bricks have a special marking they put into them. If there's any interest expressed here, I'll go through my photos to find pictures of the church and bricks to post.

[Edited on 5-6-2013 by Bajatripper]

More great stuff from you Steve! Thank you... I only know of Maria Auxiliadora from the Lower California Guidebook's interesting mention of it (page 162, 4th edition). Photos have been posted on Baja Nomad of it, as well...

Here is a post I made in 2004 (quoting the Guidebook on Maria Auxiliadora):

Baja Places 47 Years Ago: SANTO DOMINGO (BCS)

From the 1958 Lower California Guidebook describing the town between La Purisima and (today's) Ciudad Constitucion, as observed in 1957, 47 years ago.

Santo Domingo (del Pacifico). Pop. 165. Communications: Air mail once a week to La Paz; Army radio. A dusty, windswept, bleak collection of shacks, Santo Domingo is at the northern edge of an important farming area developed since 1940. Several thousand acres are irrigated from wells and planted to wheat, alfalfa, cotton, and other crops. In 1942 the colony of Maria Auxiliadora was established at Santo Domingo by the Sinarquistas, a militant religious (Roman Catholic) group allied with the Spanish Falange. Some 400 destitute peasants from central Mexico were brought here, but only a few families remain. Later other groups of colonists were brought over by the Government and a number of cooperative farming colonies have been formed, extending about 60 mi. south along the Magdalena Plain. The colonists are given land, water, farming implements, and government loans.

There is a small army detachment at Santo Domingo and a military checkpoint where cars are examined. Intoxicating beverages are confiscated. Meals and gasoline are usually available.

Tehag had posted photos in 2008, but the link to his flickr pics is not good... http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=31941

[Edited on 5-7-2013 by David K]

philodog - 5-11-2013 at 04:43 PM

I love getting my history lessons from movies. It`s so much easier than reading boring books. I let the script writers in Hollywood do all that tedious research for me. That old English priest in the movie sure liked to touch and kiss that sweet young boy a lot! What was up with that?

DENNIS - 5-11-2013 at 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by philodog
I love getting my history lessons from movies. It`s so much easier than reading boring books.

Remember "Classics Illustrated?" The world's finest literature in a funnybook format.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classics_Illustrated

DavidE - 5-11-2013 at 05:12 PM

My great uncle Erwin was Lutheran as were my grandparents, my grandfather Erwin Rommel XXXX, changed to Episcopalian to try and soothe anti-german sentiment in the northwest USA.

But SOME of the padres and most of the Gauchupines were freakin' BRUTAL to the indigenous, nasty and racist to Mestizos and very unpleasant and condescending to peninsulares. Mexico was rife with lethal racism back then.

2013, can you imagine someone in the USA looking at someone obviously indigenous and opening a sentence by saying "Hey Indian"? It happens in 2013 Mexico all the time.

Some of the catholics were OK like father Serra. Others were N-zis of religion. The church tried to take over Mexico and loot it for the Vatican. Things weren't always as pleasant as they are now.

Brenda, jesus, and las nietas know better than to use INDIO as a title of address for someone when they are in my presence.

DENNIS - 5-11-2013 at 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Some of the catholics were OK like father Serra.

Not according to the San Juan Capistrano locals with Indian blood, Juaneños. They accuse Junipero of enslavement.

Bajatripper - 5-12-2013 at 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
But SOME of the padres and most of the Gauchupines were freakin' BRUTAL to the indigenous, nasty and racist to Mestizos and very unpleasant and condescending to peninsulares. Mexico was rife with lethal racism back then.

I'm going to assume that you meant "Criollos" (people of Spanish parents born in the Americas) instead of "Peninsulares," since Peninsulares were the Gachupines (both terms referring to people born in Spain).

Another point of yours I'd take issue with is one of context. What you say is true, BUT Spaniards at least had--and continue to have-- an "Indegenous Problem" precisely because they didn't go out and try to exterminate them to take their lands--as was done in our own country (they didn't have the old saying about the "only good Indian being a dead one" since they valued them for the work they performed). And Spaniards were free to marry indigenous people whereas in Colonial British North America such a union would have been a major scandal (Pocahontis comes to mind).

I've always been fascinated by how US history books make a big deal about Cortes's claim that Spaniards suffered from "gold fever" to induce the natives to produce more of the precious metal--as if the British wouldn't have felt the same way had they have been the ones to stumble on gold-laden Aztec or the Inca empires first. No, the British and later Americans, of course, would have been above all of that and just been content with butchering all of the Indigenous people that crossed their paths. Can't get more racist than to try to exterminate a people, IMO.

J.P. - 5-12-2013 at 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by philodog
I love getting my history lessons from movies. It`s so much easier than reading boring books. I let the script writers in Hollywood do all that tedious research for me. That old English priest in the movie sure liked to touch and kiss that sweet young boy a lot! What was up with that?

I use to be a avid reader I loved books that wove Historic Events in their Story. as you said much better than reading History Books or Pure Fiction.

DENNIS - 5-12-2013 at 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper
No, the British and later Americans, of course, would have been above all of that and just been content with butchering all of the Indigenous people that crossed their paths. Can't get more racist than to try to exterminate a people, IMO.

Even the invaders wouldn't be so impractical as to get rid of all the worker bees....would they? I mean....the church found something to keep them busy.

.

[Edited on 5-12-2013 by DENNIS]

Bajatripper - 5-12-2013 at 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Even the invaders wouldn't be so impractical as to get rid of all the worker bees....would they? I mean....the church found something to keep them busy.

I'll be the first to admit that I know a great deal more about Mexican history than I do of my own, so bear with me, Dennis, when I ask which church that was? Although Father Serra worked in California, he was operating on behalf of the Spaniards before it came under American dominance.

In some class or other I remember reading about the Cherokee Nation, one of the few Indigenous communities to buy into the White Man's world, only to be included in President Jackson's massive Indigenous uprooting of all nations to West of the Mississippi and having to leave what they had accumulated.

But you are right in that I should have said "most" instead of "all." We do have those pesky reservations as evidence of that (in case it isn't obvious to some, I say that with a great deal of sarcasm).