BajaNomad - Coming to a beach near you

Coming to a beach near you

woody with a view - 8-23-2013 at 10:12 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/radioactive-groundwater-under-***ushim...

TOKYO (AP) — Deep beneath ***ushima's crippled nuclear power station a massive underground reservoir of contaminated water that began spilling from the plant's reactors after the 2011 earthquake and tsunami has been creeping slowly toward the sea.

Now, 2 1/2 years later, experts fear it is about to reach the Pacific and greatly worsen what is fast becoming a new crisis at ***ushima: the inability to contain vast quantities of radioactive water.

The looming crisis is potentially far greater than the discovery earlier this week of a leak from a tank used to store contaminated water used to cool the reactor cores. That 300-ton (80,000 gallon) leak is the fifth and most serious since the disaster of March 2011, when three of the plant's reactors melted down after a huge earthquake and tsunami knocked out the plant's power and cooling functions.

But experts believe the underground seepage from the reactor and turbine building area is much bigger and possibly more radioactive, confronting the plant's operator, Tokyo Electric Power Co., with an invisible, chronic problem and few viable solutions. Many also believe it is another example of how TEPCO has repeatedly failed to acknowledge problems that it could almost certainly have foreseen — and taken action to mitigate before they got out of control.

It remains unclear what the impact of the contamination on the environment will be because the radioactivity will be diluted as it spreads further into the sea. Most fishing in the area is already banned, but fishermen in nearby Iwaki City were hoping to resume test catches next month following favorable sampling results. Those plans have been scrapped after news of the latest tank leak.

"Nobody knows when this is going to end," said Masakazu Yabuki, a veteran fisherman in Iwaki, just south of the plant where scientists say contaminants are carried by the current. "We've suspected (leaks into the ocean) from the beginning ... TEPCO is making it very difficult for us to trust them."

To keep the melted nuclear fuel from overheating, TEPCO has rigged a makeshift system of pipes and hoses to funnel water into the broken reactors. The radioactive water is then treated and stored in the aboveground tanks that have now developed leaks. But far more leaks into the reactor basements during the cooling process — then through cracks into the surrounding earth and groundwater.

Scientists, pointing to stubbornly high radioactive cesium levels in bottom-dwelling fish since the disaster, had for some time suspected the plant was leaking radioactive water into the ocean. TEPCO repeatedly denied that until last month, when it acknowledged contaminated water has been leaking into the ocean from early in the crisis. Even so, the company insists the seepage is coming from part of a network of maintenance tunnels, called trenches, near the coast, rather than underground water coming from the reactor area.

"So far, we don't have convincing data that confirm a leak from the turbine buildings. But we are open to consider any possible path of contamination," said TEPCO spokesman Yoshimi Hitosugi.

The turbine buildings at the ***ushima Dai-ichi plant are about 150 meters (500 feet) from the ocean. According to a Japan Atomic Energy Agency document, the contaminated underground water is spreading toward the sea at a rate of about 4 meters (13 feet) a month.

At that rate, "the water from that area is just about to reach the coast," if it hasn't already, said Atsunao Marui, an underground water expert at the National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology who is on a government committee studying the contaminated water problem. "We must contain the problem as quickly as possible."

TEPCO, nationalized and burdened with the astronomical cleanup costs, has been criticized for repeatedly lagging in attempts to tackle leakage problems. As a precautionary step, it has created chemical blockades in the ground along the coast to stop any possible leaks, but experts question their effectiveness. After a nearly two-year delay, construction of an offshore steel wall designed to contain contaminated water has begun.

The utility has also proposed building frozen walls — upside down comb-shaped sticks that refrigerate surrounding soil — into the ground around the reactor areas, but that still has to be tested and won't be ready until 2015 if proved successful.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe earlier this month announced the government would intervene and provide funding for key projects to deal with the contaminated water problem.

"This is a race against the clock," said Toyoshi ***eta, a commissioner on the Nuclear Regulation Authority.

Compounding TEPCO's problems is the new leak discovered this week. Most of the 300 tons is believed to have seeped into the ground, but some may have escaped into the sea through a rainwater gutter, said Zengo Aizawa, the company's executive vice president.

That, too, may be a harbinger of more problems ahead.

Some 1,000 steel tanks built across the plant complex contain nearly 300,000 tons (300 million liters, 80 million gallons) of partially treated contaminated water. About 350 of them have rubber seams intended to last for only five years. Company spokesman Masayuki Ono said it plans to build additional tanks with welded seams that are more watertight, but will have to rely on rubber seams in the meantime.

Shinji Kinjo, a regulatory official in charge of the ***ushima disaster, said the rubber-seam tanks are mostly built in a rush when the contaminated water problem started, and often lacked adequate quality tests and require close attention.

Workers have already spotted two more questionable tanks during inspection Thursday.

"It's like a haunted house, one thing happening after another," said Nuclear Regulation Authority Chairman Shunichi Tanaka, referring to the spate of problems at the plant. "But we must take any steps that would reduce risks to avoid a fatal accident."

Leaks of highly contaminated water from the aboveground tanks aggravate the groundwater problem.

"Any contamination in the groundwater would eventually flow into the ocean. That is very difficult to stop even with barriers," said Ken Buesseler, a marine chemist at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts. He found that radioactive cesium levels in most fish caught off the ***ushima coast hadn't declined in the year following the March 2011 disaster, suggesting that the contaminated water from the reactor-turbine areas is already leaking into the sea.

But TEPCO hasn't provided the details he and other scientists need to further assess the situation.

..

More good news

bajaguy - 8-23-2013 at 10:36 AM

In the following years, the tracer cloud (of contamination) continuously expands laterally, with maximum concentrations in its central part heading east.

While the northern portion is gradually invading the Bering Sea, the main tracer patch reaches the coastal waters of North America after 5–6 years, covering a broad swath of the eastern North Pacific between Vancouver Island and Baja California.

.......After 10 years the concentrations become nearly homogeneous over the whole Pacific, with higher values in the east, extending along the North American coast.......with a maximum off Baja California.......

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/07/radiation-in-west-coa...

BajaBlanca - 8-23-2013 at 05:25 PM

:no:

shari - 8-23-2013 at 05:49 PM

the fishing cooperativas are very concerned about the effects of this on the abalone fishery..life as we know it may change drastically in the next few years on the coast.

Ateo - 8-23-2013 at 08:35 PM

Denial, denial, I'm in a state of denial. Hope it turns out differently.

Mulegena - 8-23-2013 at 08:44 PM

This is a tragedy of world-wide proportions.
It seems an inter-national/trans-Pacific collective effort at handling this would be in order, PDQ.

I've seen the graphs showing the flow of the contamination and I'm unclear if its moved that far, or is a projected trajectory or if its malarky. Anyone?

bajaguy - 8-23-2013 at 08:59 PM

If I had anything to do with the ocean and ocean products (fishing, diving, sailing, restaurants, tourism....) I would be looking for a back-up plan. Remember how the press went nuts with the "swine flu epidemic" in Baja several years ago. This will be about a zillion times worse.........even if it doesn't happen.

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
the fishing cooperativas are very concerned about the effects of this on the abalone fishery..life as we know it may change drastically in the next few years on the coast.

vgabndo - 8-23-2013 at 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mulegena
This is a tragedy of world-wide proportions.
It seems an inter-national/trans-Pacific collective effort at handling this would be in order, PDQ.

I've seen the graphs showing the flow of the contamination and I'm unclear if its moved that far, or is a projected trajectory or if its malarky. Anyone?

Seems like we had an international trans-pacific collective effort based on climate change evidence. Look how far that got. If there is evidence that the giant multinational corporations stand to lose any money because of this radiation, THEN, there may be some action. I recall two other big radiation spills in Japan, in the 40's. Now, this one threatens the USA. Karma? :lol:

Bajaboy - 8-23-2013 at 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo

Quote:

I was thinking the same thing.....

Mexitron - 8-24-2013 at 07:31 AM

So there will be higher levels of radioactivity but what does that translate to in terms of toxicity? What levels are considered dangerous? We get a dose of what, 5 millirems(?) a year just from being in the path of the sun. X-rays, security scans, cellphones, power lines, etc. also emit radiation.

REALITY CHECK

David K - 8-24-2013 at 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo

Quote:

I was thinking the same thing.....

bajaguy - 8-24-2013 at 08:46 AM

Quit eating lobster, shrimp, clams, oysters, abalone and mussels.

If the fish you caught glows, throw it back

Do not swim or dive in the ocean, do not let you dog swim in the ocean

Have another Pacifico

DianaT - 8-24-2013 at 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo

Quote:

I was thinking the same thing.....

Very true and well said. Science be damned, profit rules.

DK --- those pictures are quite sick and not a reality check as they make it look like we did Japan a favor and tells nothing about why Detroit is in such bad shape. :barf:

rts551 - 8-24-2013 at 09:00 AM

Diana, it looks like a normal DK lame/ignorant attempt at a political statement. Just ignore it

bajaguy - 8-24-2013 at 10:05 AM

Correct, learned in Rad 101 and HazMat tng

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
Time, distance, shielding, right?

Barry A. - 8-24-2013 at 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Diana, it looks like a normal DK lame/ignorant attempt at a political statement. Just ignore it

It seems to me that DK's post is only "political" if that is what you CHOOSE to interpret it as. (if the shoe fits, and all that). To me it is a snapshot into reality, and VERY appropriate, and illustrates the question of why the city fathers etc. let Detroit decay, and the Japanese made a choice to rebuild their cities into something bigger and more grand than before... The "politics" of it all is secondary, and may just be coincidental :rolleyes:

Barry

rts551 - 8-24-2013 at 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Diana, it looks like a normal DK lame/ignorant attempt at a political statement. Just ignore it

Barry

And just what does that have to do with the subject of the post? Lame Barry!

Barry A. - 8-24-2013 at 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Diana, it looks like a normal DK lame/ignorant attempt at a political statement. Just ignore it

Barry

And just what does that have to do with the subject of the post? Lame Barry!

The Japanese have a pretty good history of cleaning up their messes, no matter the cause-----------that's how it relates to this thread, but I was specifically replying to your caustic comment concerning DK, and as always wondering why a few folks DO that? Differences of opinions are normal and healthy-----why get nasty about it? (tho I admit your post was not THAT nasty). :spingrin:

Barry

sancho - 8-24-2013 at 01:40 PM

I worked at the San Onofre Nuke Plant, 5 mi. so. of
San Clemente for parts of 25 yrs., the major owners of the plant, Edison, recently deceided to shut down the plant
for good 3 months back, after replacing major components
that cost 750 mil $, that have not preformed as expected.
When I was there, or now, I would never believe the Company propaganda they put out

DavidE - 8-24-2013 at 02:55 PM

Japan has no natural resources for energy production so they chose nuclear. But it is dead center on the Pacific Rim of Fire. Earthquakes go back in Japanese recorded history for more than a thousand years. Nuclear in Kansas or Nevada makes sense, on top of a major fault? With all their sophisticated wisdom where is the massive solar voltaic effort in Japan? This is curious.

bajaguy - 8-24-2013 at 03:28 PM

Nevada has plenty of earthquake faults (just look at it's basin & range topography), including the Little Skull Fault and the Rock Valley Fault which run through and near the Nevada Test Site

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidE
Japan has no natural resources for energy production so they chose nuclear. But it is dead center on the Pacific Rim of Fire. Earthquakes go back in Japanese recorded history for more than a thousand years. Nuclear in Kansas or Nevada makes sense, on top of a major fault? With all their sophisticated wisdom where is the massive solar voltaic effort in Japan? This is curious.

monoloco - 8-24-2013 at 04:27 PM

Quote:

The Japanese have a pretty good history of cleaning up their messes, no matter the cause------

Barry

It doesn't appear that they have a clue as to how to clean up this mess. After two years it just keeps getting worse, they have made less than zero progress.

woody with a view - 8-24-2013 at 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho
I worked at the San Onofre Nuke Plant, 5 mi. so. of
San Clemente for parts of 25 yrs., the major owners of the plant, Edison, recently deceided to shut down the plant
for good 3 months back, after replacing major components
that cost 750 mil $, that have not preformed as expected.
When I was there, or now, I would never believe the Company propaganda they put out

and us rate payers are stuck with the bill! the bill to build it and pay for the energy it created. now we are gonna get bent over for the cost of dismantling it, and paying for the energy to come from somewhere else!!!!

the corps have us by the short AND curlies.....

Barry A. - 8-24-2013 at 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view

Quote:

Woody-------I am thinking you would not even have electricity if it weren't for the "corps". :lol:

Barry

monoloco - 8-24-2013 at 05:12 PM

Quote:

The rate payers are only shouldering a fraction of the ultimate cost, the rest is paid for by the taxpayer courtesy of corporate welfare. If you back out the government subsidies (designing, building, uranium mining remediation, waste management, indemnification of risk, etc.) nuke plants have never been, and will never be, cost effective.

woody with a view - 8-24-2013 at 05:58 PM

MAYBE, but SDG&E is advertising a 30% rate increase in Sept of this year. convenient, eh?

Barry A. - 8-24-2013 at 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
MAYBE, but SDG&E is advertising a 30% rate increase in Sept of this year. convenient, eh?

Ouch!!!! 30% IS outragious. Surely the San Onofre shut-down did not alone spark this???? (did it???) That is a 'Revolution-sparking' percentage increase whatever the cause!!!

Barry

SFandH - 8-25-2013 at 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
So there will be higher levels of radioactivity but what does that translate to in terms of toxicity?

That's a good question, the answer is complicated. The debate about whether or not there is a threshold dose of ionizing radiation continues. That is, is there a dose that can be considered safe, a threshold dose, or is any dose harmful.

Everybody gets a natural background dose from cosmic radiation and naturally radioactive elements in the soil. And, don't forget, atmospheric testing of nukes was banned because of the fallout adding to the natural background dose. At least they had enough sense to do that, but not until substantial fallout added to the accumulated dose.

Is the natural dose of ionizing radiation a contributor to the cancer rate? I would assume so.

Also, ingesting radioactive materials has quite a different effect than being externally exposed to them. It can be very dangerous especially if a radioactive particle gets lodged in your lungs. Also, some fission products, such as Cesium-137, chemically behave in a similar fashion as other elements, I think in this case like potassium, and therefore Cs-137 accumulates in your body, irradiating it 24/7. The same with I-131, also a fission product, in your thyroid gland.

Tiny amounts of ionizing radiation are easily detectable with the right equipment. I bet ***ushima will end up contaminating a large portion of the Pacific with measurable amounts. The result will be an increased probability you'll get cancer if you ingest the contamination.

It will be interesting to see if governments allow the sale of contaminated sea food by claiming the resulting dose is too small to do damage, using the threshold dose theory. There will certainly be pressure from the seafood industry to do that.

Eating seafood caught in contaminated areas will be hazardous, especially for children because growing cells are the most susceptible to damage. Plus they have more time to accumulate the stuff in their bodies.

Us old farts, chow down!

But stay away from tunas with three eyes.

[Edited on 8-25-2013 by SFandH]

wessongroup - 8-25-2013 at 07:30 AM

"But stay away from tunas with three eyes." :lol:

Radiation, genetics, adaptive radiation = Evolution of a species

Make mine a "Strontium 90" .... a new beer from Japan, its the water

Appears "old age" for once, has its advantages

say, anyone remember the "spot energy" scam that was run on CA a few years back .... think Enron

Must say, it's not ALL bad .... appears some are accepting and understanding there are in fact "limits" on most systems

"This week on his back-to-school tour of New York and Pennsylvania colleges, Mr. Obama presented a new plan to make college more affordable. "If the federal government keeps on putting more and more money in the system," he noted at the State University of New York at Buffalo on Thursday, and "if the cost is going up by 250%" and "tax revenues aren't going up 250%," at "some point, the government will run out of money." :biggrin:

Been a while, but, as I recall .... it is a "straight line" on genetic mutations and exposure to radiation .... and only time will tell if the mutations are beneficial to the species survival in its "environmental niche" on the planet and/or planets

Welcome to the "New Age" .... radioactive

Strange how SciFi is always a jump ahead on things

[Edited on 8-25-2013 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 8-25-2013 by wessongroup]

monoloco - 8-25-2013 at 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
MAYBE, but SDG&E is advertising a 30% rate increase in Sept of this year. convenient, eh?

Ouch!!!! 30% IS outragious. Surely the San Onofre shut-down did not alone spark this???? (did it???) That is a 'Revolution-sparking' percentage increase whatever the cause!!!

Barry

If not the consumers who benefited from the plant, who do you think should pay for the decommissioning?

bajaguy - 8-25-2013 at 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco

Barry

If not the consumers who benefited from the plant, who do you think should pay for the decommissioning?

Maybe the people who decided to spend $750 million replacing major components that have not preformed as expected........I wonder how much $$$ was spent on salaries and perks for the top tier administration who decided to spend the $$ then shut the plant down

Skipjack Joe - 8-25-2013 at 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

A Crude and tasteless statement.

Barry A. - 8-25-2013 at 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

A Crude and tasteless statement.

"crude and tasteless statement" be dam-ed------it's REALITY, and we need constant doses of REALITY less we continue on destructive paths, IMO. What happened in Detroit is inexcusable in my mind-----what happened in Hiroshima & Nagasaki was a planned-event to end a war, and the Japanese made the best of it, and prospered doing so ------THAT is the point.

On the SDG&E rate increases---------my comments that they were "outrageous" was again REALITY in peoples minds, not a comment on "who" should pay for it--------we ALL will end up paying for it, as has been stated, and in this case I think appropriate. We as a Nation embarked on Nuclear Energy because the powers making decisions believed it was beneficial to man---------that is NOT a crime, even if they are possibly wrong. Bad stuff happens. So far, nuclear works just fine in Navy ships, and has for many years. To me the jury is still out.

Barry

rts551 - 8-25-2013 at 09:29 AM

Barry, if you want to talk about Detroit then take it to off-topic.

wessongroup - 8-25-2013 at 09:33 AM

Must say, I like "radiation" .... :lol:

sorry, couldn't resist :biggrin:

[Edited on 8-25-2013 by wessongroup]

Barry A. - 8-25-2013 at 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Barry, if you want to talk about Detroit then take it to off-topic.

I think it is relevant, RTS. If my comments make you uncomfortable then I have accomplished something, perhaps.

I did not bring the subject up----------but I do sometimes comment when somebody else makes statements that I think are off-base, or just plain wrong.

Barry

woody with a view - 8-25-2013 at 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
MAYBE, but SDG&E is advertising a 30% rate increase in Sept of this year. convenient, eh?

Ouch!!!! 30% IS outragious. Surely the San Onofre shut-down did not alone spark this???? (did it???) That is a 'Revolution-sparking' percentage increase whatever the cause!!!

Barry

If not the consumers who benefited from the plant, who do you think should pay for the decommissioning?

oh, i don't know, maybe the business plan that said if we build a plant then we can sell the power. that's like Chevy charging a fee foe the building of the plant, for the product the plant produces and then when nobody wants a Chevy they add on a fee to tear down the plant.

NOBODY would buy the Chevy's for sure at that point but since we need the electricity, the corps and the regulators just giggle while they increase our rates to pay for their bad business decision.

rts551 - 8-25-2013 at 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Barry, if you want to talk about Detroit then take it to off-topic.

monoloco - 8-25-2013 at 09:49 AM

Quote:

On the SDG&E rate increases---------my comments that they were "outrageous" was again REALITY in peoples minds, not a comment on "who" should pay for it--------we ALL will end up paying for it, as has been stated, and in this case I think appropriate. We as a Nation embarked on Nuclear Energy because the powers making decisions believed it was beneficial to man---------that is NOT a crime, even if they are possibly wrong. Bad stuff happens. So far, nuclear works just fine in Navy ships, and has for many years. To me the jury is still out.

Barry

I thought you were a free market guy Barry? This is just more privatize the profit, socialize the risk type thinking. Many states and cities made the choice to not use nuclear power, why should those taxpayers be saddled with paying for SDG&E's mistakes? If you don't want to be saddled with rate increases, use less power, or put a grid tied solar system on your roof to offset your power bill.

DianaT - 8-25-2013 at 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Barry, if you want to talk about Detroit then take it to off-topic.

Yes, the discussion of Detroit and the dropping of the A-bombs should be in off-topic as the failure of Detroit is very controversial as to what happened and what the current state government is doing to Detroit. And the dropping of the A-bombs is also controversial as it was not a necessary act to end the war, especially the dropping of the second one. So, they are off-topic subjects that have nothing to do with Baja.

Barry, the photo DK posted is NOT reality. It is a tasteless distortion of reality. Right-wing revisionist crap and if it belongs anywhere, it belongs in off-topic. The idea that DK did not see it as tasteless, well, enough said. And I am surprised that you don't see how crude and tasteless it is!

woody with a view - 8-25-2013 at 09:55 AM

SORRY, it's only 20%!!!

http://www.cbs8.com/story/22217402/sdge-rates-will-increase-...

Barry A. - 8-25-2013 at 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by monoloco
On the SDG&E rate increases---------my comments that they were "outrageous" was again REALITY in peoples minds, not a comment on "who" should pay for it--------we ALL will end up paying for it, as has been stated, and in this case I think appropriate. We as a Nation embarked on Nuclear Energy because the powers making decisions believed it was beneficial to man---------that is NOT a crime, even if they are possibly wrong. Bad stuff happens. So far, nuclear works just fine in Navy ships, and has for many years. To me the jury is still out.

Barry

I AM a free-market guy, Mono, but in some cases it just is not practical because of the size of the project and the problems.

-----but, you make a very good point here, and I mostly agree with you.

barry

Barry A. - 8-25-2013 at 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Barry, if you want to talk about Detroit then take it to off-topic.

Well, as you know, Diane, we Republican's don't see things the way you appear to, and we don't think our opinions are "crap". :rolleyes:

By the way, I don't think that your opinions are "crap" either, just mis-lead and emotional, but mostly well-intentioned.

As for the A-bombs, they may be "controversial" to some but not to me. I AM prejudiced, tho, as it was my Uncle that dropped the bomb on Nagasaki as the "weaponeer" aboard. Without the 2 bombs millions more would have died----of that I have NO doubt!

----and Woody, thanks for the correction, but it is still a horrendous increase in rates-------not good, and hurts many, on that we agree.

Barry

On Edit------perhaps my statement of "-----millions more would have died----" is somewhat exagerated, but surely 100's of thousands on both sides would have died had the 2 bombs not been dropped-------the Japanese were determined to defend to the death the Homeland, even after the Hiroshima drop, and that was well known and documented at the time.

[Edited on 8-25-2013 by Barry A.]

[Edited on 8-25-2013 by Barry A.]

David K - 8-25-2013 at 10:28 AM

Wow, some of you like to really take it to the limits here. So, here is my reply since you are so bothered by a photo:

1) The thread was about radiation coming from Japan and the possible bad results.

2) Two cities in Japan were blown off the face of the earth by two atomic bombs and tens of thousands or more were killed by the radiation that followed the blasts.

3) The radiation obviously is a temporary issue since (as the photo showed) the cities have been rebuilt and are thriving examples of what free enterprise and hard work can do for prosperity... on Ground Zero of an atom bomb blast! So, instead of panic, there is hope. Just like when it was shown that the statistics on climate change were altered to create a desired panic.

4) In a once thriving city in America, where no bombing (nuclear or conventional) has been done to it, liberal policies alone have destroyed any prosperity and ruined the city...

The rage a few of you have is that the photos make it so clear that you will now resort to mud flinging and cries of outrage to mask the obvious. Face it, Freedom of the people from big government and allowing private business to supply the market makes jobs, makes wealth, makes sense!

Now, have a nice day... and smile, the world is not going to end from this or anything else man has done... it is FAR more powerful than us! :light:

wessongroup - 8-25-2013 at 10:28 AM

Perhaps one could use Germany as a reference point .... appears the "people" will pay for NOT having nuclear power .... and the potential "risks" which are associated using this method of energy production

Interesting, we pay for it whether we use it or not .... how much ya think storage will be on the San Onofre site ... cuz, ya can't take it anyplace ... Hey, they done a EIR on "Old Man's"

Won't help with what we already "have" hitting us .... but, may reduce the long term potential for future "additions" to our daily "dose" ....

Say, think there will be a "BullFrog" with R factor rating ... :lol:

woody with a view - 8-25-2013 at 11:01 AM

Say, think there will be a "BullFrog" with R factor rating ... :lol:

perhaps!

SFandH - 8-25-2013 at 11:40 AM

Just to keep things in perspective, ***ushima is releasing several hundred tons per day of water contaiminated with fission products. The bombs dropped on Japan contained about 150 pounds of fissionable material and less than a kilogram actually fissioned before it blew apart. It was all over in a few shakes of a lamb's tail.

In terms of contamination, ***ushima is MUCH worse, especially since the release is uncontrolled and into the ocean. It doesn't make much sense to compare the two except perhaps to demonstrate that contamination from bombs is tiny compared to events like Chernobyl and ***ushima.

[Edited on 8-25-2013 by SFandH]

bajaguy - 8-25-2013 at 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
.......And the dropping of the A-bombs is also controversial as it was not a necessary act to end the war, especially the dropping of the second one.

Diane....My fsther was a US Marine in WWII and a surviving veteran of Okinawa and Iwo Jima. He was one of many thousands of US servicemen in the Pacific Theater who were scheduled for Operation Olympic and were grateful for the decision to drop the Bomb(s).

Maybe you should talk to the Pacific campaign survivors who are still around from "The Greatest Generation" and do some research on WWII, especially the plans for Operation Downfall and casualty estimates of US military and Japanese military and civilians, and the Japanese military and civilian mindset, even after dropping the first bomb.

Dropping the Bomb(s) saved lives. Not only military and civilian at the time, but those of future generations on both sides.

Now back to the current discussion on radioactive water pollution...................

DianaT - 8-25-2013 at 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
.......And the dropping of the A-bombs is also controversial as it was not a necessary act to end the war, especially the dropping of the second one.

I had lots of relatives who fought in WW II --- doesn't matter. The dropping of the bombs is one of the great historical debates. Lots of evidence that it was not necessary. And evidence that supports the other idea --- neither are absolute which is true of most history. That is why it belongs in off topic. And the idea of the "Greatest Generation" is also quite debatable. Great in some ways, maybe, and any thing but great in other areas.

Just as that crude and tasteless picture and any discussion of Detroit belongs in off topic.

Following this current problem will be interesting and it could affect Baja---- the other topics are off-topic debates.

Barry A. - 8-25-2013 at 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
.......And the dropping of the A-bombs is also controversial as it was not a necessary act to end the war, especially the dropping of the second one.

On the bombs---------those in the "know" made the decisions, and I am fortunate enough to be in a position to have direct contact with one of them over many years---------that trumps the second-guessers, in my book. (there are ALWAYS second-guessers). My Uncle wrote an unpublished book on the subject, which I am lucky enough to own.

Hmmmmm, It seems to me that folks most often want things to be relegated to "Off Topic" when they don't agree with the points being made, regardless of relativity or interest.

Barry

woody with a view - 8-25-2013 at 12:11 PM

my grandpa was a crew chief on one of the bombers while training in the Marianna's after the fact. he had some crazy stories of radiation detectors aka human guinnea pigs.

DianaT - 8-25-2013 at 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

On the bombs---------those in the "know" made the decisions, and I am fortunate enough to be in a position to have direct contact with one of them over many years---------that trumps the second-guessers, in my book. (there are ALWAYS second-guessers). My Uncle wrote an unpublished book on the subject, which I am lucky enough to own.

Barry

One man's opinion is all it is. There are lots of people who were in the"know" who disagreed then and wrote about it. Also there is lots of documentation that supports the other view.

It is not a matter of second guessers ---- most of it is the interpretation of the facts which are few and far between in history.

Now that is the last I will say on the subject. It is nice that you have book your uncle wrote, but it can not be the absolute definitive interpretation of what happened because no book ever is.

And since both sides of a few things have been expressed here, it is not a matter of disagreeing with anything which screams take it to off-topic, it IS off-topic opinions. That is of course if anyone is willing to jump in that sewer.

Barry A. - 8-25-2013 at 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
my grandpa was a crew chief on one of the bombers while training in the Marianna's after the fact. he had some crazy stories of radiation detectors aka human guinnea pigs.

Just for some possible background on "radiation" damage-------my Uncle, tho on the Nagasaki bomb run, and involved with the "Manhattan Project" for several years, lived to be almost 94, dying in 2005 of multiple organ failure directly after having a heart operation. No known radiation damage.

Barry

SFandH - 8-25-2013 at 12:34 PM

OK, back to the topic at hand, ocean contamination by fission reactors gone awry or generating undisposible waste. In addition to ***ushima, read about what's happening at Hanford WA. Nine very old and now shut down primitive plutonium breeder reactors that have produced waste for about 40 years, much of it liquid. It's getting into the water table and the Columbia. Lots of leaks. It is a huge mess.

woody with a view - 8-25-2013 at 12:36 PM

now we can all have sweet dreams tonight!

Barry A. - 8-25-2013 at 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

It is not a matter of second guessers ---- most of it is the interpretation of the facts which are few and far between in history.

To the contrary-----Fortunately "the facts" are VERY well documented, and are VERY well known. What one makes of "the facts" is, of course, up to them. An appropriate number of opinions were sought from the apparently best-qualified, and the qualified decision-makers made there choices. I don't know of a better way of doing it in a Republic, do you?

There are always those that have their agenda that question everything (many which make their living doing it)---------and that is ok---------but it ain't necessarily the gospel, on any subject.

Peace!!

Barry

rts551 - 8-25-2013 at 12:51 PM

Wow...Barry I am impressed. You knew those people in the Know who made the decisions? President, Sec of State, Sec of Defense. Wow/

:lol:

Barry A. - 8-25-2013 at 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
Wow...Barry I am impressed. You knew those people in the Know who made the decisions? President, Sec of State, Sec of Defense. Wow/

:lol:

Well, out of modesty I did not want to claim that (and I didn't, of course). You are now muddying the water, which is what people do when they want to discredit someone dishonestly, even in presumed humor.

The fact that it was my Uncle who "I knew", and what I claimed, apparently is just insignificant----------to discredit someone is now the aim, apparently---------and I am not surprised.

Barry

wessongroup - 8-25-2013 at 02:26 PM

Not to worry, we® have made "plans" :biggrin:

sancho - 8-25-2013 at 03:51 PM

Quote:

If not the consumers who benefited from the plant, who do you think should pay for the decommissioning?

In the long run, I don't know if the consumers benefited
from San Onofre, some time ago during one of the
scheduled refuelings, I was told by a Manager there
that Edison could buy replacement elec cheaper than they
could produce at San Onofre, the stockholders of Edison
should pay for the decommissioning, Edison made a
mistake by going with unproven Mitsubishi to build the
replacement steam generators, it cost many people their
jobs

willardguy - 8-25-2013 at 04:09 PM

Everywhere I look something reminds me of her........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldhUQLXaVrs

DianaT - 8-25-2013 at 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Not to worry, we® have made "plans" :biggrin:

One of my favorite movies! :yes:

elgatoloco - 8-25-2013 at 05:33 PM

We were at our casa on the north coast of Baja last night. After dark the breaking waves were glowing! Hopefully just Dinoflagellates and not radiation. :saint:

Family friends owned the company who got the first concrete pumping contract for Units 2 & 3 at San O. After about a year or two they sold the contract and literally sailed off into the sunset. They pumped concrete 24/7 for 7 or 8 years there as I recall.

Brother-in-law went scuba diving 4 days a week for 6 years on the "kelp ecology project" that studied the effect of the outfall pipes at San O. To this day he sometimes glows in the dark. :lol:

http://nextcity.org/equityfactor/entry/here-is-foreign-every...

Bajaboy - 8-25-2013 at 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Wow, some of you like to really take it to the limits here. So, here is my reply since you are so bothered by a photo:

1) The thread was about radiation coming from Japan and the possible bad results.

2) Two cities in Japan were blown off the face of the earth by two atomic bombs and tens of thousands or more were killed by the radiation that followed the blasts.

3) The radiation obviously is a temporary issue since (as the photo showed) the cities have been rebuilt and are thriving examples of what free enterprise and hard work can do for prosperity... on Ground Zero of an atom bomb blast! So, instead of panic, there is hope. Just like when it was shown that the statistics on climate change were altered to create a desired panic.

4) In a once thriving city in America, where no bombing (nuclear or conventional) has been done to it, liberal policies alone have destroyed any prosperity and ruined the city...

The rage a few of you have is that the photos make it so clear that you will now resort to mud flinging and cries of outrage to mask the obvious. Face it, Freedom of the people from big government and allowing private business to supply the market makes jobs, makes wealth, makes sense!

Now, have a nice day... and smile, the world is not going to end from this or anything else man has done... it is FAR more powerful than us! :light:

David, just curious if you blame Obama and liberals for everything...like when you hit your hand trying to pound a nail or miss a traffic signal :?:

SFandH - 8-26-2013 at 07:16 AM

This thread has has got me interested (again) in the ongoing ***ushima disaster. I had a google news alert when it first happened and closely followed the news. There are many articles on the Internet about the spent fuel tank in the damaged reactor 4 building. The integrity of the building is unknown and the radiation fields are high.

There are 1,300 spent fuel rods weighing 40 tons in the tank. They have to keep adding water otherwise the heat from the decay of the highly radioactive fuel rods filled with fission products, uranium, and plutonium will cause the rods to melt and catch fire. The fuel cladding actually burns when it gets too hot and is exposed to air. The tank is on the top floor of the building and because of the damage they can't remove the fuel rods using the normal highly automated remote procedure. They need to remove the fuel rods using a dangerous manual method. Which, it appears, they haven't designed yet.

There is concern that the fission chain reaction could restart causing the fuel assembly to superheat, evaporate the cooling water, and then catch fire and melt. I don't know how realistic this concern is.

This incident is far from over.

SFandH - 8-26-2013 at 07:37 AM

I also read yesterday that scientists are now saying seafood gathered 100 miles or more away from ***ushima is safe to eat.

That may change depending upon future releases into the ocean and it may not be true. Things like this are determined by sampling and there is always the problem of using representative samples for the measurements. Plus, what is safe and unsafe is debatable.

wessongroup - 8-26-2013 at 08:02 AM

"representative samples" ........ a very important aspect of "sampling"

monoloco - 8-26-2013 at 11:32 AM

More bad news:
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2013-08-26/***ushima-ra...

SFandH - 8-26-2013 at 02:29 PM

***ushima Frenzy

MrBillM - 8-26-2013 at 03:56 PM

Setting aside the WWII Nippon-Nuking, in the postwar period there were numerous Nuclear tests performed in the Pacific with no significant widespread or Global Ill effects.

Despite far more Hysteria than we're seeing now.

BTW, although describing the two Big Boom Days of Fat Man and Little Boy as a Favor to the Imperial Empire is considered a stretch, there is the argument that ending the war that way benefited them when faced with the alternatives of an invasion or LeMay's plan for continued scorched-earth fire-bombing.

[Edited on 8-26-2013 by MrBillM]

SFandH - 8-26-2013 at 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Setting aside the WWII Nippon-Nuking, in the postwar period there were numerous Nuclear tests performed in the Pacific with no significant widespread or Global Ill effects.

Despite far more Hysteria than we're seeing now.

BTW, although describing the two Big Boom Days of Fat Man and Little Boy as a Favor to the Imperial Empire is considered a stretch, there is the argument that ending the war that way benefited them when faced with the alternatives of an invasion or LeMay's plan for continued scorched-earth fire-bombing.

[Edited on 8-26-2013 by MrBillM]

The weight of the material that fissions in a nuclear bomb is several pounds. Since the bombs convert mass to energy in a rather dramatic way, there is even less, in terms of weight, radioactive material after the explosion. There are 40 TONS of uranium/plutonium/fission products in reactor 4's spent fuel tank alone.

There have been self-sustaining nuclear fission chain reactions going on in those 6 reactors for decades. Nuclear reactions in a bomb are finished in an instant.

Predicting the effects of ***ushima based upon the radiological effects of nuclear explosions doesn't make sense.

And there certainly has been global effects due to atmospheric testing. Why do you think they stopped it and went underground? Before the bombs I-131, Cs-137, and Sr-90 didn't exist, not one single atom, anywhere. The stuff is all over the globe now. Granted, in small amounts but no level of radioactivity is safe, that's a fact.

There are too many variables to know, but to think that the increase in cancer isn't in part due to atmospheric testing would be illogical.

Keep your fingers crossed that another earthquake or tsunami doesn't hit ***ushima.

[Edited on 8-27-2013 by SFandH]

David K - 8-26-2013 at 04:21 PM

Good point Bill, we blew up many hydrogen bombs in the Pacific before testing them under Nevada... and the French continue to do so! A hydrogen (fusion) bomb is MANY times more powerful than the Atom (fission) bombs dropped on Japan. The earth is powerful indeed... oil spills, nuclear radiation, etc. and in a relative short time, life resumes.

monoloco - 8-26-2013 at 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
The earth is powerful indeed... oil spills, nuclear radiation, etc. and in a relative short time, life resumes.

Until it doesn't. Nobody knows where that tipping point is.

SFandH - 8-26-2013 at 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Good point Bill, we blew up many hydrogen bombs in the Pacific before testing them under Nevada... and the French continue to do so! A hydrogen (fusion) bomb is MANY times more powerful than the Atom (fission) bombs dropped on Japan. The earth is powerful indeed... oil spills, nuclear radiation, etc. and in a relative short time, life resumes.

Read what I wrote above your post. And the fusion reaction produces comparatively small amounts of radioactive fallout, especially air bursts.

[Edited on 8-26-2013 by SFandH]

David K - 8-26-2013 at 04:53 PM

Yes, I posted my reply to Bill before I saw yours. Thank you!

Interesting article on ***ushima

bajaguy - 8-26-2013 at 06:20 PM

From CBS news:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57600173/area-near-***...

woody with a view - 8-26-2013 at 06:48 PM

i saw that. notice how the big story gets glossed over about a heart strings issue? journalism at its worst....

Looking on the Bright Side ..................

MrBillM - 8-27-2013 at 02:12 PM

IF the Beaches start to GLOW ..............

Surfing at night will be energized.

So to speak.

wessongroup - 8-27-2013 at 02:37 PM

I'd be more worried about "barrels" and/or "storage tanks" that might show up on the beach .... from, you know where :biggrin:

As would imagine finding enough room for them is going to become "problematic" after a few decades of "pumping" groundwater ...... not to mention those 15 ton "filters" which are piling up a bit, already ....

But, not to worry ... they are "clear cutting" an entire forest adjacent to the "site" for additional storage ..... for now

Door stops, scratch that, aaahhhh ... ok, leave in place ... got it :lol:

Not sure how they will build the lead and concrete "coffin" which the Russians are encasing their "nuclear accident" in ..... glad they don't have "earthquakes" in Russia ... but they do seem to attract stuff from "outer spaces" a bit ....

No up side to animal species being exposed to increasing levels of radiation, I'm aware of, at this time ...... its a straright line, more radiation ... greater mutations to the "genome" ..... more exposure it becomes acutley toxic to organisms's ability to function and/or live ....... the genetics takes time, at least 9 months, normally ... the rest is a "coin toss"

Think it's important to remember "it" doesn't go AWAY .... think DDT ... and it builds up, like its "additive" 1 + 1= 2

“The U.S. Department of Energy has testified that there is no level of radiation that is so low that it is without health risks,” Jacqueline Cabasso, the Executive Director of the Western States Legal Foundation, told Al Jazeera.

Her foundation monitors and analyzes U.S. nuclear weapons programs and policies and related high technology energy, with a focus on the national nuclear weapons laboratories.

Cabasso explained that natural background radiation exists, “But more than 2,000 nuclear tests have enhanced this background radiation level, so we are already living in an artificially radiated environment due to all the nuclear tests.”

'No safe levels' of radiation in Japan
Experts warn that any detectable level of radiation is "too much".

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/04/2011421925...

appears one has to get off the major wave lengths to get a "glimpse"

I'll pass on MORE radiation, but, still .... Have a nice weekend ... and a beer or two :biggrin:

[Edited on 8-27-2013 by wessongroup]

The Germans are turning out to be pretty smart ... on some things ... don't know how they are able to go solar with their weather

[Edited on 8-27-2013 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 8-27-2013 by wessongroup]

SFandH - 8-27-2013 at 05:19 PM

***ushima has changed from an electricity producer to a radioactive water producer.

One suggestion is to store the water in oil tankers. Begs the question, then what?

Some scientists are suggesting cooling the mess with high volumes of air.

Best to stand upwind.

I was reading more today. It bugged me that they are saying 300 tons of radioactive water a day. Who measures water by weight?

So....

(300 * 2000)/8.3 = about 72,300 gallons per day

That's the volume of the leaks, not the amount of "hot" water produced.

I like the tanker idea. Just so they don't sink, say in the Persian Gulf.

[Edited on 8-28-2013 by SFandH]

DavidE - 8-27-2013 at 05:32 PM

I think studying the effects of Chernobyl are worthwhile and for a fact even after decades some zones outside the plant are so hot, even heavily shielded personnel can stay only minutes. For a lifetime.

Building or storing radioactive material within striking distance of a fault is folly. Properly placed and operated plants are perhaps acceptable but it seems to be impossible to keep politics out of decisions.

A woldwide decision and agreement needs to be reached about proper storage, handling and transport of spent uranium. Like a nuclear Geneva agreement. I sure do not see anything being done in that department. It's rather discouraging.

Building tens of billions of solar voltaic panels is not at crazy sounding as it once was.

I completed a Nuclear Emergency Response Team course (it was intense) in the late seventies. It taught me to be humble about things radioactive.

wessongroup - 8-27-2013 at 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
I guess what I really want to know is what are the fisher-persons going to do?
From the recreational one to the one in it for the money... big or small, what is the plan, if any?

Tolerances established ... perhaps ...

Not sure what the RDA (Recommended DailyAllowance) is for bacon with say 15 rads or Swordfish with 17 et al

Lower levels .. higher price ... :biggrin:

Better stock up on PFB ... (Pre ***ushima Beer) ... before it hits here

SFandH - 8-27-2013 at 06:07 PM

In a Japanese food market:

"Cesium readings are posted right beside the price."

Protein, carbs, fats, and cesium-137.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june12/***ushimap...

The more cesium, the lower the price???

[Edited on 8-28-2013 by SFandH]

Economic Possibilities ?

MrBillM - 8-27-2013 at 07:12 PM

History has shown that EVERY crisis presents challenges AND opportunities.

"Personal" Radioactivity detection devices for Beach-goers could become a HOT item ?

Sounds Rad, doesn't it ?

Maybe, Lead-Lined Wetsuits ?

OK, THAT could be a weighty problem.

[Edited on 8-28-2013 by MrBillM]

woody with a view - 8-27-2013 at 07:25 PM

it's the end of the world as we know it!

wessongroup - 8-27-2013 at 07:49 PM

Naw .....we just need more beer and/or beverage of choice ... its all good

SFandH - 8-28-2013 at 07:09 AM

For those curious about consuming seafood containing low levels of radioactivity.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/08/are-the-levels-of-***...

I wonder if any US consumer protection agencies are testing the catch........yet.

wessongroup - 8-28-2013 at 07:49 AM

"***ushima Daiichi: The Battle for Containment

More than two years after suffering one of the world's worst nuclear accidents, the ***ushima Daiichi compound remains a menacing challenge for the operator and regulators. Although the immediate danger of further meltdowns is past, ***ushima Daiichi continues to leak radiation—particularly through water—and the damaged reactors are still too heavily contaminated to enter. When three of the plant's six reactors spun out of control following the earthquake and tsunami of March 2011, the resulting explosions and radioactive releases contaminated a broad swath of the surrounding region, rendering nearby towns uninhabitable for decades. Operator Tokyo Electric Power Co., or Tepco, estimates it could take up to 40 years and trillions of yen to clean up the mess.

—Phred Dvorak, Moeko Fujii, Eleanor Warnock and Rosa de Acosta

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732351440457865...

I'm accepting the "higher" dose ... not much one can do, but, find a hobby :biggrin:

[Edited on 8-28-2013 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 8-28-2013 by wessongroup]

Just saying

durrelllrobert - 8-28-2013 at 10:05 AM

I HAD a friend that was one of 7 Navy divers that helped recover the 70 -kiloton H Bomb that fell into the Mediterranean off the cost of Spain in Jan. 1966 when the B-52 carrying it collide with a KC-135 jet tanker during a refueling operation. He died of cancer in 1986, just like the other six that died before him.

Barry A. - 8-28-2013 at 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by durrelllrobert
I HAD a friend that was one of 7 Navy divers that helped recover the 70 -kiloton H Bomb that fell into the Mediterranean off the cost of Spain in Jan. 1966 when the B-52 carrying it collide with a KC-135 jet tanker during a refueling operation. He died of cancer in 1986, just like the other six that died before him.

I wonder what their ages were-------that would be very telling, I am thinking.

Barry

durrelllrobert - 8-28-2013 at 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

I wonder what their ages were-------that would be very telling, I am thinking.

Barry

My friend was 55. Don't know about the others but I'm sure their ages were +/- 5-8 years

SFandH - 8-28-2013 at 11:37 AM

"Of the four Mk28 type hydrogen bombs the B-52G carried,[2] three were found on land near the small fishing village of Palomares in the municipality of Cuevas del Almanzora, Almería, Spain. The non-nuclear explosives in two of the weapons detonated upon impact with the ground, resulting in the contamination of a 2-square-kilometer (490-acre) (0.78 square mile) area by plutonium. The fourth, which fell into the Mediterranean Sea, was recovered intact after a 2½-month-long search."

Cleaning up plutonium on the ground is nasty business. A spec of that stuff lodged in your lungs is a serious situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_Palomares_B-52_crash

Mk-28:

BTW, reactor fuel elements, which have been damaged at ***ushima and are contaminating the water contain plutonium. Some of it from U-238 absorbing a neutron and also, at ***ushima, some of the fresh fuel contained plutonium because they were using a fuel type that was made from both uranium and plutonium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOX_fuel

[Edited on 8-28-2013 by SFandH]

Mexitron - 8-29-2013 at 12:57 PM

Another scientist's take on things:

http://www.surfingmagazine.com/blogs/the-scoop-radioactive-p...

Ken Buesseler:The meltdown at ***ushima happened in 2011 and the waves from the tsunami brought radioactive material into the ocean. There were various other sources from the event which caused even more contamination. It was an unprecedented event for the ocean, so there is every right to be worried. It’s good to have a healthy amount of concern about radioactivity in the Pacific, but the effects from ***ushima on our coast have been exaggerated. Certainly, there was an extremely high level of radioactivity right at the site of the disaster. However, the further away you go, the lower those levels become and they reach a point of insignificance.

When you put milk in your coffee cup and start stirring, you see streaks at first and eventually it all becomes that light color. The ocean behaves in a similar fashion and the mixing is very well understood. The radioactive isotopes mix with the currents. Those currents slowly move across the Pacific and they will reach our shores. But the levels will be tens of thousands of times lower that what we found in Japan. They’re already low enough off the coast of Japan to be safe, but they’re going to be even lower off our coast.

There is no way that the water that you’re surfing in could give you a radioactive dose that would be of any concern. There are already radioactive atoms in the ocean, but they aren’t dangerous. We have naturally-occurring radionuclides and there are still radionuclides from nuclear weapon testings in the ‘60s in there. It can be hard for people to understand that it’s already been there, but it has been for decades. And the radioactivity from ***ushima will cause no significant difference.

The consumption of seafood has raised significant interest. If you eat a contaminated fish, that is a direct dose of radiation and it is of more concern than external exposure. Japan had to close down a large number of fisheries for this reason. And yes, fish can move out of those contaminated zones but they rarely do — besides for tuna. And if a tuna was to swim away, the concentration of these cesium isotopes would drastically decrease. They lose it as they get into cleaner water. In 50 days, a fish will lose half of the cesium it may have picked up off Japan. We must watch out from thinking that every radioactive atom will kill us. We’re regularly exposed to a number of detrimental things and this one does not create a hazardous situation.

I don’t work for the power companies. I don’t work for any special groups. We just analyze what we measure and how it compares to other sources and try to put it into context. We don’t believe that the Pacific Ocean is safe in the sense of being able to ignore what is an unprecedented release of radioactivity. But I think it’s all been very alarmist and you can blame that on the fear of cancer or bad sci-fi movies from the past.

SFandH - 8-29-2013 at 02:38 PM

It's a fluid situation. :rolleyes:

Sorry. Buesseler's solution to pollution is dilution explanation is correct for us, probably. ***u could slowly get better or quickly get worse. Another earthquake could dramatically worsen the situation.

I'm amazed that somebody way back when didn't say "Hey that's up-side-down!" when they placed the back-up generators at or below ground level and the spent fuel tanks on the top floor.

I've lost a lot of confidence in the nuclear industry because of what looks to me to be a giant, fundamental mistake.

wessongroup - 8-29-2013 at 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by soulpatch
We'll see where Ken Buesseler stands on this in a few years.

But, hey, at least they're getting announcements out quickly now!

Level 3 incident

[Edited on 8-29-2013 by soulpatch]

Dittos

And excuse me if I have a little concern over something which is a: carcinogen, mutagen and teratogen ... and is persistent in OUR environment for a very long while and is additive to our daily exposure or background levels of ionizing radiation .... think DDT, it was diluted too ...

Don't believe the FDA will register a product which has anyone of these three properties and to a very large extent all "products" which were and/or are found to have these abilities are removed from products used to "make" what we "want" and "need"

Never thought for a minute this was acutely toxic to anything, other than those entities in the "immediate" area of the "site"
(with exceptions noted)

But, I've not ruled out Godzilla, at this time :biggrin:

woody with a view - 9-3-2013 at 11:49 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/japan-fund-ice-wall-stop-reactor-leaks...

:lol:

we're in trouble now....

wessongroup - 9-3-2013 at 01:19 PM

Not sure the "ice wall" will help with the Olympics in 2020 .... this should prove interesting