BajaNomad

Baja - 215 Million Years Ago

Ateo - 9-23-2013 at 07:13 PM

An interesting view of Baja from 215 million years ago.

Completely underwater(EDIT I WAS WRONG. BAJA WAS NOT UNDERWATER):





http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/09/what-d...

I have not verified this with any geologists or plate tectonic dudes but I thought this looked interesting.

[Edited on 9-24-2013 by Ateo]

Mexitron - 9-23-2013 at 08:05 PM

Actually it wasn't underwater---it would be attached to what would become mainland Mex....Baja didn't become a peninsula until starting around 10 million yrs ago. Interesting image---cool to see what things looked like back then.

OCEANUS - 9-23-2013 at 10:13 PM

That image is not of Baja, but rather remnant offshore islands off the coast of what is now Oregon, Washington and Vancouver. If you follow the link and study the progressive images, Baja does not rift off of Mexico until the third to the last image.

Very cool site though, especially the pre-Pangea artwork.

bajabuddha - 9-24-2013 at 04:47 AM

Sorry to burst your bubble, but completely not acceptable. First off, if you look at the overlain 'lines' of the continent to the right, it's showing the entire west coast of the U.S. and Canada, and Baja originated from the coastline of aproximately Mazatlan northward for about 1500 kliks. The faint image of present-day Baja at the bottom is fantasy. At 200 M. BC eastern Utah, Colorado and points north and south were inundated by a shallow sub-tropical sea, and the whole continental plate was situated sub-tropical, just above the equator and a living gaspacho soup of teeming sea-life and proto-dinosaurs like crocs and such, not to mention the megalodon shark. The map is total fantasy. Our continent had barely separated by a mega-continent including Africa, South America and western Europe, not to mention Australia and Antarctica. Wild stuff, huh! At 215m years my favorite formation, the Chinle, was deposited in Arizona, Utah, and surrounding areas, and gave us the Painted Desert, Petrified Forest, and the great uranium booms of the late 40's. At that time the area was an inland sub-tropical freshwater shallow lake much like central Florida today with huge Cyprus trees and lots of mud, volcanic ash and critters i'd hate to meet in person.

Baja didn't separate (much like the Great Rift Valley of Africa) until a mere 5m years ago, the Sea of Cortez is even younger, about 3 m. That's why much of Baja is covered with a basalt 'cake glaze' from all the vulcanism associated with the splitting...... it was one helluva place to roast hot dogs for a few millenia. Everywhere you look there are old volcanic cones, plugs and dykes, and some new ones. Every time i cross the Viscaino i always hope to see Tres Virgenes smoking a little... it ain't over yet. Most of Baja geology is less than 50 m.y.o., with much of it even quite a bit younger. There's a few parts of it older but not much. It's a fast moving sonofagun too, and is still scooting northward about as fast as your fingernails grow for the time being. Less than another 100m.y. and we'll get tacos at Fisherman's Wharf.

Other than that i really don't have an opinion on the matter.:spingrin

[Edited on 9-24-2013 by bajabuddha]

David K - 9-24-2013 at 08:04 AM

Thank you Ateo... very cool map... and it does show that where Baja is (and the U.S. states are) NOW. Baja now was the ocean then... As stated above, Baja broke away from Mexico much later and it and the Pacific Plate it is part of are moving north, away from the North American Plate (which the rest of Mexico is part of).

Ateo - 9-24-2013 at 08:15 AM

I stand corrected, and feel like an idiot for forgetting that Baja broke off of the Mainland.

[Edited on 9-24-2013 by Ateo]

EnsenadaDr - 9-24-2013 at 08:19 AM

What I want to know is, did the dinosaurs speak Spanish or English was back then??

Paleogeography and Geologic Evolution of North America

Bwana_John - 9-24-2013 at 08:31 AM

Here you go, this is the most comprehensive set of paleomaps of North America that I know of.
Ron Blakey, the creator is acknowledged as a leader in the field of Paleogeography
Paleogeography and Geologic Evolution of North America

elgatoloco - 9-24-2013 at 08:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
What I want to know is, did the dinosaurs speak Spanish or English was back then??


Man was working with dinosaurs to make them bilingual then that whole meteor thingy happened near Cancun and messed it up.

Ateo/bajabuddha/Bwana- thanks for the links. I have always been fascinated with tectonics and the origins of the earth, at least the theory. :saint:

Fascinating reading, all of it. :cool:

Skipjack Joe - 9-24-2013 at 08:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

What I want to know is, did the dinosaurs speak Spanish or English was back then??



You will find your answer in the Flintstones.

bajabuddha - 9-24-2013 at 11:04 AM

Here's another GREAT read for you: "Roadside Geology and Biology of Baja California" by John Minch, available at PO box 4244 Mission Viejo, CA 92690 (800)367-0117. It's a klik-by-klick of each road in Baja (16 different logs) and Mr. Minch is a geologist, so a lot of the info is waaaay over my head, but still there's plenty to glean out of it, and his wife is a biologist and talks also about flora and fauna along the way, giving kilometer-post #'s as they go... sometimes they're a little off (and sometimes a little more) on their marker-calling, and some of the highway distances have changed with the newer pavings.

It's a great book to have in the hands of a co-pilot as you drive; reading the chapters and details as you come to them. I almost got to see a few of them when not white-knuckled on Hwy 1, brief glances and scenic pull-outs help when possible. Tremendous details with a glossary of technical terms in the back for reading at camp in the evenings. Takes a little figgerin' out, he's definitely one o'them book-larnin' collidge types ya know. Anyway, the more you learn about Baja the more there is to find out.

Happy trails.
bb

DavidE - 9-24-2013 at 01:44 PM

Where pray tell did all the aquifer water come from? When did it manage to find its way to underground reservoirs? Was the Baja California peninsula inundated with -that- much rain at one time or another? Or was the peninsula a ten million year old fragment broken off near Mazatlan and the winter we drink in many places stored in aquifers ten million years old?

David K - 9-24-2013 at 01:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DavidE
Where pray tell did all the aquifer water come from? When did it manage to find its way to underground reservoirs? Was the Baja California peninsula inundated with -that- much rain at one time or another? Or was the peninsula a ten million year old fragment broken off near Mazatlan and the winter we drink in many places stored in aquifers ten million years old?


The last Ice Age David... and that was like 'yesterday' in the history of the world, man was already afoot and even walked from Siberia to Alaska (to Baja) because sea levels were so much lower... this was about 13,000 and more years ago.

David K - 9-24-2013 at 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabuddha
Here's another GREAT read for you: "Roadside Geology and Biology of Baja California" by John Minch, available at PO box 4244 Mission Viejo, CA 92690 (800)367-0117. It's a klik-by-klick of each road in Baja (16 different logs) and Mr. Minch is a geologist, so a lot of the info is waaaay over my head, but still there's plenty to glean out of it, and his wife is a biologist and talks also about flora and fauna along the way, giving kilometer-post #'s as they go... sometimes they're a little off (and sometimes a little more) on their marker-calling, and some of the highway distances have changed with the newer pavings.

It's a great book to have in the hands of a co-pilot as you drive; reading the chapters and details as you come to them. I almost got to see a few of them when not white-knuckled on Hwy 1, brief glances and scenic pull-outs help when possible. Tremendous details with a glossary of technical terms in the back for reading at camp in the evenings. Takes a little figgerin' out, he's definitely one o'them book-larnin' collidge types ya know. Anyway, the more you learn about Baja the more there is to find out.

Happy trails.
bb


Indeed... great book on the subject:

8 Million Years Ago

David K - 9-24-2013 at 02:15 PM



Baja moving away and north... Cabo was once connected to the Puerto Vallarta area of Mexico.

OK I'LL BITE

DavidE - 9-24-2013 at 05:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by DavidE
Where pray tell did all the aquifer water come from? When did it manage to find its way to underground reservoirs? Was the Baja California peninsula inundated with -that- much rain at one time or another? Or was the peninsula a ten million year old fragment broken off near Mazatlan and the winter we drink in many places stored in aquifers ten million years old?


The last Ice Age David... and that was like 'yesterday' in the history of the world, man was already afoot and even walked from Siberia to Alaska (to Baja) because sea levels were so much lower... this was about 13,000 and more years ago.


Ice age. Ice?. Moraine valleys?, Glaciers? 13,000 years ago was not that long ago and I will be damned if I see evidence of glacial action anywhere on the peninsula. Did rivers flow uphill from Nayarit and Colima and flood the peninsula? Fresh water. Aquifers with the amount that San Quintin had and what Cd. Constitucion and Vizcaino has did not form with piddlyassed yearly rainfall. What rainfall? Some parts of the jigsaw don't jibe.

David K - 9-24-2013 at 05:52 PM

The area was wetter.. and the vast underground supplies once benief the Vizcaino Desert (and Magdalena Plain?) were attributed to the Ice Age weather... I will try and find my source for that, if you like. I do believe I read it in the '70's?

bajabuddha - 9-24-2013 at 05:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by DavidE
Where pray tell did all the aquifer water come from? When did it manage to find its way to underground reservoirs? Was the Baja California peninsula inundated with -that- much rain at one time or another? Or was the peninsula a ten million year old fragment broken off near Mazatlan and the winter we drink in many places stored in aquifers ten million years old?


The last Ice Age David... and that was like 'yesterday' in the history of the world, man was already afoot and even walked from Siberia to Alaska (to Baja) because sea levels were so much lower... this was about 13,000 and more years ago.


Sorry to burst another bubble, but the water in the synclines of lower and middle Baja were deposited in the CRETACEOUS period 65 to 75 MILLION years ago back before Baja was a gleam in its' father's eye, even 50 m.y. before Baja decided to cecede from the continent. Synclines are filled-in geologic depressions, anticlines are lifts or 'bubbles' in the strata. When you have both, the water falls into the synclines forcing oil into anticlines (oil floats on water) known as "hydrostatic pressure". The synclines of the Viscaino and the Insurgentes areas hold water literally over 60 million years old, trapped there by impermiable layers underneath that don't let them go anywhere, hence a 'static' reservoir or huge underground lake. Then over the millenia it got filled in with sand and sediment. Cool, huh. Problem is, they mine the water for the huge agricultural areas, great soils, very clean waters, but when it's gone, IT'S GONE FOREVER and the whole area will return to its' desert-past-state, and never to return again. No replenishment. San Quintin has El Picacho Del Diabalo mountains to call upon, the rest of the current southern Baja ag. is doomed, and not too far into the future either. It's all in that book you posted. Great read.
bb

[Edited on 9-25-2013 by bajabuddha]

David K - 9-24-2013 at 05:59 PM

If you are correct, you aren't bursting any bubble... I welcome facts on the past!

I am just recalling a memory... I think maybe it is DavidE who you want to address with the pre-historic water idea...

Thank you for details... Hard to imagine that the location of water below today's ground level, was there for that long... is still below the ground at an accessible depth...?

dtbushpilot - 9-24-2013 at 06:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DavidE
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by DavidE
Where pray tell did all the aquifer water come from? When did it manage to find its way to underground reservoirs? Was the Baja California peninsula inundated with -that- much rain at one time or another? Or was the peninsula a ten million year old fragment broken off near Mazatlan and the winter we drink in many places stored in aquifers ten million years old?


The last Ice Age David... and that was like 'yesterday' in the history of the world, man was already afoot and even walked from Siberia to Alaska (to Baja) because sea levels were so much lower... this was about 13,000 and more years ago.


Ice age. Ice?. Moraine valleys?, Glaciers? 13,000 years ago was not that long ago and I will be damned if I see evidence of glacial action anywhere on the peninsula. Did rivers flow uphill from Nayarit and Colima and flood the peninsula? Fresh water. Aquifers with the amount that San Quintin had and what Cd. Constitucion and Vizcaino has did not form with piddlyassed yearly rainfall. What rainfall? Some parts of the jigsaw don't jibe.


I can show you evidence of glacial action down here in the east cape, can't tell you when it happened but it is apparent.

monoloco - 9-24-2013 at 06:46 PM

The maximum extent of the last period of glaciation only reached the approximate latitude of Denver.

dtbushpilot - 9-24-2013 at 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
The maximum extent of the last period of glaciation only reached the approximate latitude of Denver.



The glaciation I see in the east cape probably happened when Baja was still part of the mainland. It would be interesting to see if the same evidence was over there too. How long ago was the last period of glaciation mono?

monoloco - 9-24-2013 at 08:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dtbushpilot
Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
The maximum extent of the last period of glaciation only reached the approximate latitude of Denver.



The glaciation I see in the east cape probably happened when Baja was still part of the mainland. It would be interesting to see if the same evidence was over there too. How long ago was the last period of glaciation mono?
The last period was from 26000 and 19000 years ago.

EnsenadaDr - 9-24-2013 at 09:18 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yudgKLs88mo

Skipjack Joe - 9-24-2013 at 10:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco

The maximum extent of the last period of glaciation only reached the approximate latitude of Denver.



That's probably true of the Canadian Ice Shield but there are/were high elevation glaciers at lower latitudes. There are glaciers on Mt Kiliminjaro today. Perhaps that section of baja was once part of a mountain range? Seems unlikely though.

bajabuddha - 9-25-2013 at 02:01 PM

I suggest if y'all have a yen for finding out time-periods, geology, glaciation (ice ages) and the 'twinkling' it took to make Baja get hold of that book... i just (re)read the first few pages of it, and alone in the first chapter will answer a bunch of your questions. Amazing stuff.

BTW, the last ice age (Pleistocene) lasted about a million years, the FULL ice sheet from the arctic came down into the Colorado area, and the MELTING lasted from about 30,000 to 10,000 years ago. While the great sheets receded left the Beringian Land Bridge due to low sea levels (which were then rising) and a shallow shoreline from Asia to this continent, allowing the Paleo-hunter-gatherers a pathway to the west, and megafauna to hunt, which brought them even to here. Baja was an entirely different place even then. 10,000 years ago Lakes like Laguna Chapala and an even larger one in the El Marmol area were big shallow lakes with fish and turtles, the land was savannahed with grasses and light forests, plenty to hunt, gather and eat; not the desert you see now. All the canyons you see now were cut by running water, and not just from monsoonal storms like now.

As an eminent geologist i used to work with said, "if you want to really THINK geology, you have to think very, very BIG or very, very SMALL (meaning microscopic slide studies of the sediment/deposition you're curious of)".

Once again, great read, i highly suggest it.

David K - 9-25-2013 at 02:12 PM

Great... I had a feeling it was closer to 10,000 years ago (as you state) when it was still much wetter and cooler (not the 19,000 years that monoloco posted. The last Ice Age ended about 13,300 years ago per the Internet... and I am sure it took several hundred to a few thousand years for the climate to convert to desert with the global warming that began 13,300 years ago!

Mexitron - 9-25-2013 at 02:18 PM

As I recall, some paleobotanists analyzing pollen grains in rat middens wrote that the Catavina area 15,000 yrs ago was similar to the Central CA coast today---ie--chaparral, Cypress type environs. I imagine the desert flora had migrated to Southern Baja and/or the Gulf side.

bajabuddha - 9-25-2013 at 02:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron
As I recall, some paleobotanists analyzing pollen grains in rat middens wrote that the Catavina area 15,000 yrs ago was similar to the Central CA coast today---ie--chaparral, Cypress type environs. I imagine the desert flora had migrated to Southern Baja and/or the Gulf side.


Exactly. The 2nd find of 'Clovis Point' hunter/gatherers (11,400 BC) excavated was on a (now barren bluff top in southeastern Utah about 40 miles WNW of Monument Valley. It's now a totally barren desert. Then was grassed, forested, and the guys that left their spear points behind were hunting little game like mastodon, camel, giant sloth, etc.... all gone now in a twinkling of an eye, along with the flora.

As my old friend used to say, ''EARTH HAPPENS".

Sucker Musta Snuck Up From The South...

DavidE - 9-25-2013 at 05:36 PM

Geology is not my strong suit. But I was sort of under the impression that lots of water softens razor sharp landscapes creates drainage contours, you know like large river beds. and other signs of large amounts of water. A twelve inch rainfall can make Chapala look like the Salton Sea. It takes prolonged inundation of prodigious amounts of water to create the aquifers we see today. So what geologists are claiming is that the water we are using today in the storage aquifers we are tapping was there when the peninsula broke away from the mainland tens of millions of years ago? When I wash dishes it is -the- water that Stegosauri and tyrannosaurs frolicked in? Agua de Sinaloa vintage 70,000,000 BC?

bajabuddha - 9-25-2013 at 05:51 PM

Pretty much, Dave. At least the syncline was there; whether or not there were frolicing ferociates ferreting their fun there is a good poser for the imaginiation. The layer under the present syncline (western Baja from Mag Bay to just about El Rosario) is impermeable; stops any waters from going deeper. The water that's tapped in the Constitution area has been dated at Cretaceous, which is mas o meno 70m back. It's a sealed aquifer, been there since then, and as mentioned when gone is gone-gone for good.

Seings as how the whole split-away started 10m ago, the Sierra Gigantes above Loreto all the way to El Picacho above San Felipe (at well over 11,000 ft!!) are only a mere 3m to 5m years old, there's been a lot of changes going on. All the basaltic caprock you see all the way up and down the Baja was spewing because of all the movement during those 'short' periods too. And me without marshmallows.

During and at the end of the Pleistocene Age and possibly even more recently, the climates were much more temperate leading to all the water and life there; much more rainfall, which would create the deep canyons and gorges we see today. Hard to believe a merre 10k ago there were freakin' ELEPHANTS walking where we arre now, and very tanned surfers trying to poke em with sticks.

It's a wonderful world. Hard to believe some think it's only 4800 years old and we drowned all the dinosaurs. :rolleyes:

Mexitron - 9-25-2013 at 07:58 PM

Bajabuddha---While the basaltic rock/lava flows resulting from the splitting of Baja off the mainland are generally only between 2 and 10 mil yrs old, the San Pedro Martir and other plutons were formed mid-cretaceous...they may have been lifted and exposed more recently however....not clear on that part---though I think the Sierra Nevada has only risen in the last few million yrs (while being formed underground for 200 mil yrs!). I have a copy of Minch's book (signed---I worked for him for a couple months way back when helping with some botanizing) but I left it at my folks house in Oregon...oops.

Mexitron - 9-25-2013 at 08:02 PM

BTW, you might be interested in these fossils found mid-peninsula at around 400 feet elev. The rocks have been "cooked" it seems, after the fossils were formed....there is a nearby pluton at Punta Cono so perhaps that's the stove...??? Another geologist thought they were brachiopods, which could go back well over 100 mil yrs.

bajabuddha - 9-25-2013 at 09:38 PM

Very true, Mexitron. San Pedro Martyr is only a sliver of the gigantic California Batholith, which includes the Sierra Nevadas, Cataviña w/ El Pedregoso, etc. Granite IS basalt that never touched air, as basalt is granite that did make it to the atmosphere. It formed way back when (tens of millions of years ago, acutally more) but only emerged to be eroded recently. It was the recent collision of the Pacific plate with the Continental plate that started the tilting and uplifiting of the Baja ranges, hence the gradual western slopes and the sharp precipitous cliffs of the eastern sides. Lots to be learned from the large scapes.

Your fossils are wonderful too... just the fluctuation of sea levels due to ice age(S) of just the last few million years leaves all kinds of young fossils not too far inland from the coastlines; one good dig is just west of San Ignacio, at the base of the road up to the nearest Microonda tower. There's a large white quarry to the northwest of the highway, lots of stuff there. It's a bed of 'turtilleras (small spiral mollusk shells) dating 11myo, covered by a 'tuff' layer (volcanic ash). That would be about the time Baja was starting its' separation, looooong before the current volcanoes around the area now... but still, a hotbox. The Mexican coastline then was covered with a shallow sea, rich in life, but a big blowout caused a mass-destruction like St. Helens, and all were covered and entombed. Page 87 of Minch's book.

Another great hunting ground are the bluffs west and coastal from El Rosario. More, south of San Bruno are bluffs with megalodon teeth. I have a necklace made from one, it's as long as my thumb.

Your 'cooked' pics are great. The coloring is not from heat, but when buried in what looks like red sands (which would be shallow iron-rich, meaning fresh water-mixing) the original materials dissolved away and were replaced with minerals, hence the different colors. I've dug many an ancient fossil in western Utah deserts, some dating back almost 400k, and the older they were the blacker they were too. I wore a 400myo cucaracha (trilobite) hanging from my ear for over 20 years until finally it got lost. Also, climbers on the top of the Himalayas are marvelled at all the sea fossils embedded at over 25,000 feet up. They used to be shallow sea bed sediments now thrusted over 4 miles into the air, and the Himalayas aren't any older than Baja... India struck Asia and pushed up the Hindu Kush ranges in a geologic heartbeat, less than 10my. Mind-boggling.

I just luv this chit, can't get enough of it. Glad it made me pull out the book and read more again, will be driving through it shortly. So much more to learn, so little time. Just an hour ago i watched a special on a graveyard found in the central Sahara desert dating back almost 10,000 years, finally abandoned less than 5,000y. Two totally different cultures and physical types of peoples buried there with a thousand year hiatus between each culture. Also, remnants of an ancient lake (like Chapala??? Same time period!!!) filled with 6-foot fish, turtles and hippos, etc. They said the earth has an eliptical orbit around the sun, not just year by year, and 10k ago the area was less bombarded by UV rays from the sun and more temperate, like the current savannahs of central Africa today. Baja same latitude? Possible. Same cause and effect? You tell me. Eventually, all dried up and the dunes blew in. Wwwweeeeeeeee !! The rollercoaster goes on.

bajabuddha - 9-25-2013 at 09:55 PM

Mexitron,
Just looked it up in the back of his book, you're right on with the formation of the batholith and plutonic bubbles, Mesozoic era which puts it mas o meno 100-200myo, and as i mentioned, it's huge 'bubbles' of magma rising upwards through crust but never breaking it... then cooling, forming granite, and waiting to finally push up and briefly see the sun... granite is soft and erodes fairly quickly. That's why all the boulders of Cataviña are so rounded; the original matrix got lots of cracks from all the ground movement, and broke into 'blocks' that are now 'balls' due to rain/wind. El Pedregoso is a classic example. Cool looking volcanic plugs around it that as you said are only a few myo, creating the basalt crusting around it. Sheesh. I need another toddy.

bajabuddha - 9-25-2013 at 09:59 PM

OMA!!!!! (oh my allah) That just made me a Junior Nomad !!!

I'LL MAKE A BIGGER TODDY !!!! :light: :bounce: :spingrin:

DavidE - 9-26-2013 at 10:15 AM

" It's a wonderful world. Hard to believe some think it's only 4800 years old and we drowned all the dinosaurs. :rolleyes: "


Whaaaaaaat? Dont'cha know dinosaurs and such nonsense are TRICKS of da debil to sort out the troo bleevers from the folks destined to take the final elevator that has only one button (Going Down?)

BTW bet-cha nickel Las Tres Virgenes get snow on them this winter.

elbeau - 9-26-2013 at 12:00 PM

What about the aquifer feeding the Rio San Ignacio? There's certainly not enough precipitation to feed the springs there. Is the water feeding the springs from millions of years ago too?

Barry A. - 9-26-2013 at 12:09 PM

This "aquafir" business and "Fossel Water"-------------I have always wondered what it actually takes to re-charge the aquafirs under desert regions, if it's happening at all. I realize that the occasional deluge mosty runs off into the sea in many places----ok, I get that. But what about tiny fossel aquafirs like in the Borrego Springs area of Anza-Borrego which have no outlets to the sea normally--------folks have been pumping that aquafir for 75 plus years, and yes it has gone down significantly, but surely there must be some recharge going on from the occasional deluge, winter rains, or from the constant flow of the two tiny streams that flow into it or it would have been exhausted by man years ago?!?!?!?!. I wonder if there are any successful and conclusive studies on this subject, and what are the results? When I hear or read "----never to be replenished-----" about Fossel water aquafirs I wonder????

Barry

David K - 9-26-2013 at 12:16 PM

Water pouring out near the top of a mountain (as opposed to the base of one) has fascinated me... Case in point, the streams that pour out of the rocks just above (west of) Mission Santa Maria. I mean, where does it come from (near the top of the range... and a desert too)? I understand granite is porous and stores water from the infrequent rains... but, it is still amazing to me.





Another place is the white slope spring just past the Arroyo el Volcán crossing on the road to La Olvidada from El Mármol. It is near the top of a small hill... nothing (gravity-wise) feeds it. So, I think it must be a fault line or underground pressure forces it up there?

Mexitron - 9-26-2013 at 01:14 PM

Bajabuddha---yah, good stuff!!!

Barry---actually I'm working for a client, a professor at UCI, who is putting together a study concerning exactly that issue in Borrego Springs. She is working with the farmers, geologists, and water department to try and figure out what's going on. Of course they could solve any water problems out there by putting the kibosh on the citrus farms....
....I would imagine each replenishment scenario is different for each geo-locale so hard to give a blanket answer. In Borrego the wettest years spill water into Clark Dry Lake bed and I don't think any water travels out of the "sink" area. Still, having spent a bit of time out there its hard to imagine the infrequent wet years can keep up with the replenishment---the place is an oven for 5 months a year (my client has said that some folks recommend cutting down all the native trees like Palo Verdes that pull water out of Coyote Creek, the main constant source of water out there).

Osprey - 9-26-2013 at 02:31 PM

How much trouble is it to age date fossil water? We are going to have to do that in Baja Sur soon enough. Maybe it would shake things up a little when hydro pros see how long it would take to recharge what we are stealing every hour of every day.

We only have 45 Cm available per person, per year. The village uses 120 and my wife and I use twice that much. They have about 4500 Cm in Mexico and 22,000 Cm in Central America.

[Edited on 9-26-2013 by Osprey]

Skipjack Joe - 9-26-2013 at 03:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron

my client has said that some folks recommend cutting down all the native trees like Palo Verdes that pull water out of Coyote Creek



Or ...

We could get rid of those lawns around that central area.

Er ... I mean the Rams Hill Country club and it's golf course.

[Edited on 9-26-2013 by Skipjack Joe]

bajabuddha - 9-26-2013 at 03:31 PM

OK, here goes again. The 'fossil' water is in the huge synclines of southwest Baja, from the Viscaino desert down to Mag Bay. Those underground lakes are 'trapped', and not replenishable. The huge agricultural growth of the Constitution / Insurgentes areas are the result of mining that aquifer.

San Ignacio springs are fed from the very large expanses of the Sierra San Fransiscos to the north, fed through lots of porous basalt (which comprises most of the northern ranges there) and once up in those canyons, as well as the canyons above Mulege and Loreto on the EAST side of the Peninsular Divide are all kinds of springs, pools, blue fan palms (the only indigenous palm tree to Baja) and lots and LOTS of archaeology dating back also thousands of years. Where there's good water, there's good breweries... er, berries and such.

Dave K, we had a skiff of 'karfunda' (i hate the 'S' word) on the top of Tres Virgenes just this last January. Only lasted a day, but ..... SKI BAJA !!!!!

Barry A. - 9-26-2013 at 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron

my client has said that some folks recommend cutting down all the native trees like Palo Verdes that pull water out of Coyote Creek



Or ...

We could get rid of those lawns around that central area.

Er ... I mean the Rams Hill Country club and it's golf course.

[Edited on 9-26-2013 by Skipjack Joe]


"Rams Hill Golf Course" in Borrego Springs has been defunct for several years now, I believe. Casa Zorro also has been closed down for several years. Casa Zorro has been bought, and may have already opened back up, but I don't believe the Rams Hill Golf course will reopen any time soon. I could be wrong here. The housing area associated with Rams Hill is still viable and functioning.

However, your point, Skipjack, is still valid as there are at least 3 other Golf Country Clubs still operating, with no intention of closing down and they have full historical water rights I believe, so not much you can do without their cooperation. Of course much of the water used to water the 'greens' goes back into the ground, but a significant amount also evaporates, and is lost forever to that aquafir.

Thanks to the others for more explanations of Aquafirs, and on-going studies. I still believe that there is some replenishment to the Borrego Springs aquafir as it does fluxuate some from year to year according to the Water District meetings I have attended. The trend is "down" however which is very worriesome.

The aquafirs in Baja are even more worriesome as we are talking about serious depletion by farming, and not much planning for the future from that standpoint as I understand it. The outlook is grim!!!

Barry

bajabuddha - 9-26-2013 at 05:51 PM

Alas, Barry... so it goes with literally most of the world.

I do have an alternative suggestion:

CONSERVE WATER. Drink more cerveza, and chower with your steady. :wow:

Ateo - 9-26-2013 at 05:53 PM

Lots of good info in this thread. Thanks all.

Desalinization will probably come to Baja on a larger scale someday.

Better hope those gas tanks at Pemex Vizcaino are double walled and properly monitored! They don't need ground water contamination!

I'm just riffing here............Ha ha.

David K - 9-26-2013 at 10:17 PM

Good answer for the San Ignacio River source... Now, how about that leaky white hillside near Arroyo El Volcán or the Santa María creek source? Many thanks... I love geology and Baja has it all!

Skipjack Joe - 9-26-2013 at 11:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabuddha

I do have an alternative suggestion:

CONSERVE WATER. Drink more cerveza, and chower with your steady. :wow:


Actually when you think about it we use much more water than we need to. During my baja trips we often just freshen up with baby wipes for days and take full showers much less frequently than we would have back home. And we don't seem to be very much worse off.

elbeau - 9-27-2013 at 09:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Good answer for the San Ignacio River source... Now, how about that leaky white hillside near Arroyo El Volcán or the Santa María creek source? Many thanks... I love geology and Baja has it all!


El Volcán is a soda spring from what I understand. The water mixes with something deep down which causes upward pressure. A geologist could certainly explain it better than me, but my understanding is that this is what causes the El Volcán pools, springs, and geysers.

Barry A. - 9-27-2013 at 09:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Actually when you think about it we use much more water than we need to. During my baja trips we often just freshen up with baby wipes for days and take full showers much less frequently than we would have back home. And we don't seem to be very much worse off.


Yep, you are right, skipJack. My wife and I use a 3-gal. RAIN SHOWER bag (much easier to handle than a 5-gal one) mounted on the side of our small camper shell, which is good for both of us, even washing our hair. I use about 1 gal., and my wife the remaining 2 gal., using "navy-shower" techniques (shut shower off after getting wet, soap up, and use the bulk of the water to rinse off). Our camper's tank only holds 13 gal. so you get use to being 'water-thrifty', and we always fill the RAIN SHOWER with water from pools and streams, when possible.

Yes, this is a great thread!!!

Barry

David K - 9-27-2013 at 09:57 AM

Right you are elbeau... In my photo of the white slope, you can see the top of the hill (high point of the area) is just above the springs, so pressure must be pushing the water up, against gravity! The water is not hot, it is cool, and it bubbles from the soda (CaCO3) action. In Minch's Roadside Geology book, it is the only error I found (page 60) where he says they are hot springs making the onyx there. The famous cold water geyser dome is located about a half mile to the south of this white slope/hill, in the Arroyo el Vocán. On my visits in 1974 and 2000, I did not know to walk down the arroyo and thought this set of springs was El Volcán! I have been to the real Volcán in 2003, 2006, 2011, but have yet to witness the monthly eruption of the geyser!

bajabuddha - 9-27-2013 at 10:10 AM

I went to look for that 'hot spring' back about 199(7?) and found the springs, and the very beautiful travertine formations, which indicate all the 'soda' there. Now i'm just guessing on this, but when i was a kid (yes, i really was one once) we had tub-toys you'd fill with baking soda, and they'd splutter around the tub for a while when the water hit the soda. Now, if there is (and obviously is) a large deposit that helped create El Marmol mine material as well as the spring and guyser, and if underground water seeps to it and creates pressure when contacting the 'soda', eventually KA-BLOOEY! Which is how many cold-water guysers erupt. There are two very near Green River Utah, both man-made from oil exploration when drill pipes tapped soda deposits and water entered. One still erupts twice a day (right on the banks of Green River, gorgeous travertine from it) and the other is boarded up behind an old gas station. The second was touted as a 'natural wonder' and fenced, with admission sold to show the eruptions.... once people were in, the owner would open a hidden water valve to the well shaft, and the rest is history.

Rubber Ducky, you're the one...... you make bathtime lots of fun!

David K - 9-27-2013 at 10:15 AM

Cool story! :wow:

Barry A. - 9-27-2013 at 10:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Cool story! :wow:


I'll say!!! "Cool" indeed, and I think correct. When my son and I and another couple canoed the Green River 26 years ago we stopped to see that Geyser in the boonies by the river -----it was amazing, and yes it did erupt while we were there. Fun, fun!!!! Was not aware of the one in town.

Barry

vgabndo - 9-27-2013 at 10:22 AM

I've broached this subject before here, and I still think the idea has enormous applicability to Baja. Sea water greenhouses are working all over the world. The temperature differential between sea water and the sea water saturated hot desert air passing through a greenhouse is used to condense distilled water out of the air. The system can operate on solar or wind power. The down side is that extra salty water is returned to the ocean, and if this isn't diluted adequately, can have a negative effect on sea life directly adjacent to the outflow. As much as 20 times more water is being generated than is needed to grow the flourishing crops of hydroponic tomatoes in the greenhouses. (Australia)

bajabuddha - 9-27-2013 at 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Cool story! :wow:


I'll say!!! "Cool" indeed, and I think correct. When my son and I and another couple canoed the Green River 26 years ago we stopped to see that Geyser in the boonies by the river -----it was amazing, and yes it did erupt while we were there. Fun, fun!!!! Was not aware of the one in town.

Barry


The other guyser isn't in Green River, but behind the old gas station at Woodside, Ut. which is about 20 miles north of Green River heading towards Price, Ut. The old 'fence' wall is still visible behind the station. All private property, no trespassing. It's where the Price River Gorge starts its' junction through the Book Cliffs to the Green River, which i've been blessed to have 'duckied' through many, many years ago. Fantastic region.

I have camped at the guyser by the river many times also, and been woken up in the middle of the night on full moons by the 'big whoosh' and man, what a rush. Makes you wanna dance in the spray, but i don't suggest it... people just seem to have a need to drop rocks down the hole; bad medicine.

David K - 9-27-2013 at 02:24 PM

GEYSER (unless the cool ones are spelled different?)

bajabuddha - 9-27-2013 at 05:51 PM

Ah, David, you're absolutely correct, except for most on this site spelled........
.........
.........................
.......................................
...................................................... wait for it...............



GEEZER.:lol:

David K - 9-28-2013 at 12:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabuddha
Ah, David, you're absolutely correct, except for most on this site spelled........
.........
.........................
.......................................
...................................................... wait for it...............



GEEZER.:lol:


:lol::lol::lol::light: Yup, why not... I just turned 56, so I am over the hill!

DENNIS - 9-28-2013 at 07:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron
Actually it wasn't underwater---


It would seem that some of what we see today was. The hill behind my house is 6 or 700 feet high and I find small Abalone shells in the hillsides up there.

Sandlefoot - 9-28-2013 at 08:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Mexitron
Actually it wasn't underwater---


It would seem that some of what we see today was. The hill behind my house is 6 or 700 feet high and I find small Abalone shells in the hillsides up there.


Wondering, myself, why anyone would want to store Abalone shells up there? :light: :light:

bajabuddha - 9-28-2013 at 09:45 AM

If you're talking western shoreline of Baja, i suggest you go to the CONANP thread in General Discussions and watch the 12 minute video at the top of their home page. They have a good section in it showing areas around San Quintin and El Rosario, going quite a ways inland too, and it will explain the different shorelines over the last few thousand- to few million years. There's been ice ages coming and going, and rise and fall of sea levels as well as lifting and moving of shorelines. Those abalone shells are not uncommon.

Also, if it's a hilltop, it could have been a nice place to dine and watch the sunset. On the top of Isla Requeson in Bahia Conception are ancient middens of early inhabitants thousands of years ago feasting on oysters, clams and scallops. Might want to look for worked pieces of chert (gray to red to black) that may have been chipped into sharp edges...... could be an archaeological site.

David K - 9-28-2013 at 09:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajabuddha
If you're talking western shoreline of Baja, i suggest you go to the CONANP thread in General Discussions and watch the 12 minute video at the top of their home page. They have a good section in it showing areas around San Quintin and El Rosario, going quite a ways inland too, and it will explain the different shorelines over the last few thousand- to few million years. There's been ice ages coming and going, and rise and fall of sea levels as well as lifting and moving of shorelines. Those abalone shells are not uncommon.

Also, if it's a hilltop, it could have been a nice place to dine and watch the sunset. On the top of Isla Requeson in Bahia Conception are ancient middens of early inhabitants thousands of years ago feasting on oysters, clams and scallops. Might want to look for worked pieces of chert (gray to red to black) that may have been chipped into sharp edges...... could be an archaeological site.


On top of the mesa, near Bahia las Animas are plenty of shells from Indian's (and Spaniards'?) meals... Sleeping circles and shells... and those strange walls: http://vivabaja.com/109

Barry A. - 9-28-2013 at 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by bajabuddha
If you're talking western shoreline of Baja, i suggest you go to the CONANP thread in General Discussions and watch the 12 minute video at the top of their home page. They have a good section in it showing areas around San Quintin and El Rosario, going quite a ways inland too, and it will explain the different shorelines over the last few thousand- to few million years. There's been ice ages coming and going, and rise and fall of sea levels as well as lifting and moving of shorelines. Those abalone shells are not uncommon.

Also, if it's a hilltop, it could have been a nice place to dine and watch the sunset. On the top of Isla Requeson in Bahia Conception are ancient middens of early inhabitants thousands of years ago feasting on oysters, clams and scallops. Might want to look for worked pieces of chert (gray to red to black) that may have been chipped into sharp edges...... could be an archaeological site.


On top of the mesa, near Bahia las Animas are plenty of shells from Indian's (and Spaniards'?) meals... Sleeping circles and shells... and those strange walls: http://vivabaja.com/109


Also some sleeping-circles (etc.) along the shoreline of BOLA on hill sides and tops of hills, both north and south of BOLA, and within the south part of the bay.

Barry