BajaNomad - Border Agent Kills Man Who Threw Rock at Him

Border Agent Kills Man Who Threw Rock at Him

Cisco - 2-19-2014 at 01:48 PM

Posted Feb 19, 2014 10:23 AM CST

"A US Border Patrol agent who claims he feared for his life after a rock hit his head reacted by shooting and killing the man who hurled the stone. It marks the ninth fatal shooting involving rock throwing since 2010. The unnamed agent was patrolling a smuggling trail east of San Diego early Tuesday when he came upon men suspected of crossing the border illegally; rocks were thrown at him, with one hitting his head. The San Diego Union-Tribune describes one of them as being as large as a basketball, and many of the rest fist-sized. The AP reports that the incident fuels an ongoing debate over whether lethal force is justified as a response to rock attacks. The Border Patrol has long maintained that rocks are deadly weapons, and has rejected proposals that would prevent it from responding to them with deadly force.

Under current policy, agents can use deadly force if they have a reasonable belief that their lives or the lives of others are in danger. Agents were attacked with rocks 185 times in the 2012 fiscal year, making it the No. 2 type of assault, according to the Department of Homeland Security inspector general. They responded with gunfire 22 times and with less-than-lethal force—such as pepper spray and batons—42 times. The rock-thrower was pronounced dead at the scene; it's unclear how many times he was shot, but the agent fired at least twice."

Bajaboy - 2-19-2014 at 02:16 PM

Darwin award? Throw a rock at a guy with a gun :?:

jbcoug - 2-19-2014 at 02:42 PM

This isn't a political issue, it's an intelligence issue. The rock thrower didn't have any.

DENNIS - 2-19-2014 at 02:49 PM

So???? What's the problem?

mtgoat666 - 2-19-2014 at 03:28 PM

whenever i hear about border patrol agents gunning down rock throwers, something that happens much too frequently, i am reminded of the david and goliath story and the opening scene of 2001 space odyssey,...

someone needs to warn mexican citizens in the border regions that border patrol agents are not too bright, shoot first and ask qs later, and are a protected class of citizens that cannot be indicted for their incompetence or flagrant civil rights violations.

what is really needed is for ALL law enforcement to wear video cameras so the REAL story is documented. the non-video-ed stories told by LE are always half-truths, filled with bald faced lies or lies of omission.

wessongroup - 2-19-2014 at 03:42 PM

Well, I'm sure you have "factual evidence" to support that statement :lol:

I do like the camera idea through ... certainly could help in disputes over who said what .. and if the "camera" isn't damaged by a rock ... one WOULD have a record

Must say, a rock the size of a basketball would be pretty hard to "throw" ... in most cases :biggrin:

When young we were taught NOT to throw rocks at people ... go figure

Hook - 2-19-2014 at 03:45 PM

You're right, Goat, it happens too frequently.

Maybe after this incident, word will get around that you don't throw rocks at border patrol agents. No, make that ANYONE in a uni ON EITHER SIDE OF THE BORDER, toting a gun.

Many of us have said, "stupid should hurt", instead of being coddled. I guess it resulted in the ultimate hurt this time.........

[Edited on 2-19-2014 by Hook]

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Hook]

rts551 - 2-19-2014 at 03:55 PM

How do you throw a rock as big as a basketball? Thinking about it...someone that strong wouldn't need a rock.

jbcoug - 2-19-2014 at 04:51 PM

Goat,

You think the border patrol agents are not too smart, what does that make the rock thrower? Somewhere around marooon, cretin, imbecil...........

Bajahowodd - 2-19-2014 at 05:03 PM

The underlying issue here is that we have become a country controlled by by zenophobes.

In DC, there will be no action on immigration reform is even considered until "our borders are secured".

Look around the rest of the world and try to find a border between neighboring countries that is as, or more fortified than ours and Mexico. It is both sad and ridiculous.

freediverbrian - 2-19-2014 at 05:13 PM

try to find two neighboring countries that have a greater economic diversity that is the sad problem

wessongroup - 2-19-2014 at 05:16 PM

Try Switzerland ... appears they have started on the "walls"

DENNIS - 2-19-2014 at 05:19 PM

That age-old question:
What came first?? The bullet or the rock??

David K - 2-19-2014 at 05:21 PM

Should the Border Patrol have their guns and bullets replaced with boxes of rocks?

Was the Border Patrol doing its job, and inside the territory of the United States?

Did the border patrol fire first (not likely as it would have been amazing for the victim to throw a rock after he was killed)?

A rock to the head can very well be lethal.

Why are there Mexican citizens lined up along the border (or inside the United States attacking law enforcement officers)... are they declaring war?

DENNIS - 2-19-2014 at 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd

Look around the rest of the world and try to find a border between neighboring countries that is as, or more fortified than ours and Mexico. It is both sad and ridiculous.

The border between Mexico and Guatemala isn't exactly fantasyland.

David K - 2-19-2014 at 05:39 PM

North Korea shoots both invaders or it's own people getting too close to the border. Lot's of 'socialist' countries had to shoot their own people who tried to leave, otherwise nobody would stay. :rolleyes:

DENNIS - 2-19-2014 at 05:40 PM

Border Tales
By Elise Cooper

Border Security on the Mexican border does not receive the attention it should. It must be considered a national security issue. American Thinker interviewed border ranchers and law enforcement to understand their views regarding threats and solutions to America's security problem.

Many of the ranchers interviewed feel betrayed and abandoned. They cite instances of illegals using their homes and territory. Kelly Glenn-Kimbro, an Arizona rancher, told the story of a Mexican woman who had a baby in their ranch pasture and walked up to the house asking for help. Dr. Gary Thrasher relayed the story that one day after coming home he went upstairs to find illegals who had gone through the doggy door. As he was confronting them he heard his downstairs shower being used by two Mexican women. There is the horror story of Robert Krentz who was murdered by an illegal shortly after his expressed his concern over his safety at a border security meeting. A rancher from a family who were afraid to give their name concurred and told how they were threatened after putting up infra-red cameras, finding a picture of a masked man placing his gun in front of the camera.

They are telling their stories because of the belief that most Americans have no idea what is really happening at the border. One solution would be having the Border Patrol and the ranchers work as a cohesive unit. Instead of being told not to detain or hold the illegals, they want to be able to capture them once they trespass on their ranch until the Border Patrol can arrive. It can take Border Patrol agents up to an hour depending on their location. One rancher summarized everyone's feelings that "as American citizens we should have the right of self defense."

Other solutions include having more "boots on the ground," which should include the redeployment of the National Guard, more operating bases directly on the border, and a change of the mentality from a law enforcement philosophy to a military one. According to the ranchers, the border should be viewed as an enemy line which at this time is not being protected. Another rancher, John Ladd, would like to see the reinstatement of portable towers directly on the border. He explained that they were removed because the Mexicans started shooting at them and they were not bulletproof.

All the ranchers interviewed agree that the number of illegals crossing the border has diminished, but view this as a misleading statistic. They feel Border Patrol is trying to protect the border but is handicapped by the bureaucracy who want to show that the border is exponentially more secure. For example, an area is secured, allowing the ranchers to see improvement, and then the manpower is pulled out for another area. Anna, whose ranch is just a few miles from the border stated "of course things get better, people are there, but as the manpower leaves, the security actually gets worse over time."

Tim Sullivan, in charge of the Douglas, Arizona Border Patrol station, defends the philosophy, "We are making a dent since there are less people illegally entering the country which means there will be fewer apprehensions; yet, those entering the country are always looking for ways to beat us." He also sees the border security problem as a national security threat but unfortunately does not think "the sense of urgency among the American people is there yet."

It is a war zone between Border Patrol agents and the drug runners/smugglers. Rocks the size of softballs are used against the agents as well as lethal weapons. Many of the Border Patrol SUV's have been re-constructed with rod iron fencing around the windows and windshield to protect these officers. Sullivan wants Americans to understand that the agents have a personal desire to secure the border since they are part of the community, raising their families in the area. His solution is to build taller, heavier, double layered fences with ditches between them. He is glad that there is now funding for a permanent eastern base as well as two temporary camps in the remote areas. The best way to secure the border is using an "all of the above approach" that includes more agents, better fencing, video surveillance cameras, radar trucks, handheld detectors, ground sensors, lights, helicopters, UAV's, and specialty units on horses and bicycles. A Border Patrol official wants the National Guard to remain at the border (their deployment is up this June) because "the guard is good at spotting aliens crossing the border. We don't have to be where they are observing. They are the additional eyes for us. Boots on the ground is what will lead to success."

Homeland Security always cites that apprehensions are down as proof that the border is becoming secure. However, Douglas, Arizona Chief of Police Alberto Melis estimates that the statistics of those caught entering America illegally range from four in ten to one in 2.6. He compares the apprehension statistics to fishing for salmon in the river: you can count the fish caught, not the ones that got away. What is needed is a baseline statistic. Cochise County Sheriff Larry Deaver agrees and argues that "you can't catch what you don't see. Who are the people that got away? For me, secure needs to mean safe. The border is less safe than it has ever been because the illegals are more determined and more dangerous." Both the Sheriff and Police Chief want to see more boots on the ground and technology including ground level fiberoptic cables.

Michael Braun, the former U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration Chief of Operations, explains that the drug cartels became a very formidable threat over the last seven decades, because high level government and security officials cut deals with them to keep them in check, and in many cases, to line their pockets. The cartels, driven by an insatiable greed, consistently broke all of these deals, evolved, and simply became more emboldened, stronger, and more efficient. He would like to see the use of UAV's that have look down capability, and the significant increase in personnel necessary to monitor what is being collected by the platforms. With this combination of technology and human assets a target area can be determined to allow patrol agents to helicopter in, make arrests and seize valuable and deadly contraband.

Border security is an issue which has not been on the forefront of America's consciousness. The goal has to be to stop people illegally entering the country. Homeland Security needs to quit quoting a useless statistic, those apprehended. Besides improving and increasing technology as well as having a stronger presence on the border, baseline numbers must be established to see the successes and failures. These statistics should include those illegally entering the country, those apprehended, and those that escaped. The numbers game as well as a "do little attitude" by Homeland Security has to change. There must be a need to confront the problem or it will be to the detriment of America's national security.

Page Printed from: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/04/border_tales.html at February 19, 2014 - 06:38:14 PM CST

Bajahowodd - 2-19-2014 at 05:58 PM

Just wonder if there was free and unfettered passage between the three North American Nations. Just think about it.

There was a time when the Mexican economy was so awful that people wanted to leave in droves. I really don't think it's the same today.

Major international manufacturers have built plants in Mexico. There are many more jobs today than there were 20 years ago.

Does anyone have any idea as to how many illegal Canadians are in the US? Simply because they are of similar complection and speak English, they pass.

I know it won't happen in my lifetime, but if unfettered border crossing was allowed, I'm certain that it would achieve a homeostasis resulting in many Mexicans opting to cross back to their homeland, simply because there is simply not enough jobs.

And I want to reiterate the idea that while no one appears to be upset by illegal Canadians, when it comes to Mexicans, we need to build walls, fences and shoot the folks.

Does that happen between Germany and Hungary? They do speak different languages.

Barry A. - 2-19-2014 at 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
whenever i hear about border patrol agents gunning down rock throwers, something that happens much too frequently, i am reminded of the david and goliath story and the opening scene of 2001 space odyssey,...

someone needs to warn mexican citizens in the border regions that border patrol agents are not too bright, shoot first and ask qs later, and are a protected class of citizens that cannot be indicted for their incompetence or flagrant civil rights violations.

what is really needed is for ALL law enforcement to wear video cameras so the REAL story is documented. the non-video-ed stories told by LE are always half-truths, filled with bald faced lies or lies of omission.

It's not a game, Goat. "Fair" does not inter into it. Intelligence of the Agent is also not an issue----------the ISSUE is self-defence, and Officer's have been legally able to defend themselves FOREVER, as far as I know. Officers are not payed to put up with life-threatening or crazy dangerous situations without taking proper and sanctioned efforts to protect themselves. It is as simple as that.

Yes, Darwin in action, with predictable results. Thank Zeus the Agent was not injured worse than he was.

Barry

DianaT - 2-19-2014 at 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
North Korea shoots both invaders or it's own people getting too close to the border. Lot's of 'socialist' countries had to shoot their own people who tried to leave, otherwise nobody would stay. :rolleyes:

Can you please name one "socialist" country who has done this? Some dictatorships, yes, but socialist?

Maybe Denmark, Sweden, Finland, who?????

The report in the paper lost all credibility when they mentioned a rock as big as a basketball ---

Bajahowodd - 2-19-2014 at 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompano
Too easy. The most heavily militarized border in the world is in fact the 'Demilitarized Zone' between North and South Korea. It's title is somewhat of a familiar joke.

Very bad analogy. North Korea is being considered by the UN to be brought up on charges of crimes against humanity, similar to the N-zis.

Our brothers and sister South of the Border should not even be close to being considered in the same breathe as North Korea.

Not to mention that most of you Nomads are forced to sit through hours of border wait for what is no appropriate reason.

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajahowodd]

toneart - 2-19-2014 at 06:44 PM

The exact same issue happened a couple of years ago and it was hashed over and over and over right here. Many of the same people who jumped in here were posting in the string a couple of years ago. Barry was the most vocal and vehement in favor of the shooting of a rock thrower by a border patrol agent. We went back and forth and it was a total waste of time.

So...why is this new incident surprising or even discussed here? Nothing has or will change in attitudes. The responses are absolute! They are 180 degrees apart. You can count on the responses being given according to their political ideologies.

For Dennis to quote the attitudes of The American Thinker, a Right Wing Rag, as credible, is typical. That publication still makes sure that Obama's middle name, Hussain, is inserted. They are obsessed by "Communists" and the Liberals enabling poor people with "handouts".

Those who are saying that the rock throwers, or the Border Patrol Agents are stupid does not address the issue. All that does is define what ideology you subscribe to.

I do not beat around the bush with such distracting drivel.I think the shooting incidences are deplorable! They are inhumane. It is no different than when Dick Cheney goes hunting in a deer ranch where the deer are trapped by a surrounding fence. The threat to Cheney and his buddies is that a cornered deer could lash out with their hooves... (or maybe getting shot in the face).

I feel sorry for the families of the deceased. He was some mother's child. (Sound familiar? Hmmm?) I would feel the same for the family of a Border Patrol Agent who might be killed by an unarmed rock thrower (he was some mother's Oaf), but we all know that hypothetical will never happen. So, cut the crap in trying to justify this murder. You guys love it. We hate it. You Wingers make me sick! :fire:

DENNIS - 2-19-2014 at 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

For Dennis to quote the attitudes of The American Thinker, a Right Wing Rag, as credible, is typical. That publication still makes sure that Obama's middle name, Hussain, is inserted. They are obsessed by "Communists" and the Liberals enabling poor people with "handouts".

Why, thank you, Tony. Nice to see you drop in occasionally.
Anyway.......please keep in mind, one man's bible is another man's bathroom book. :biggrin:

Ateo - 2-19-2014 at 06:52 PM

We do many things wrong in the USA (drug war, regular war, tax codes, restricting gay marriage, euthanasia, immigration-- to name a few).

I think we are on the road to rectifying some of the above injustices. As the newer generations come in, the old die off, and as access to information becomes readily available I believe we will see public opinion shift on multiple issues (see above mentioned). We are seeing that with Gay Marriage and Marijuana Laws, as I write this. Euthanasia? Really? We don't have the right to end our own friggen lives in a humane way, if need be?

Our immigration system needs to be fixed. Maybe this tragedy wouldn't have happened if we had a smarter system. I bet in 100 years we will look back at this event and think, "that didn't have to happen."

Many people have lost their lives trying to cross the border to make a better life for themselves. We spend BILLIONS and BILLIONS to keep people out of the USA.

Ya know what? They find a way in! Just like they find a way to get drugs here. We are wasting $$$$.

I did inspections at 5 gas stations today. Every one of them had an "illegal alien" working there. Come on, where there is a will, there is away.

Let's be smarter than this.

Added on edit: We do many things RIGHT here in the USA. I'm not bashing. Try being an atheist in Saudi Arabia, or a woman. We are starting to get some things right here, like allowing gays to marry who they love.

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Ateo]

DENNIS - 2-19-2014 at 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
We spend BILLIONS and BILLIONS to keep people out of the USA.

WOW...that's a bunch of fun tickets, for sure.
I guess it's meaningless that our economy says goodbye to 21 billion dlls [average estimate] in southbound remittances each year.

Quote:

I did inspections at 5 gas stations today. Every one of them had an "illegal alien" working there.

Really????
Did they have the telltale "IA" tattooed on their foreheads? :?:

DENNIS - 2-19-2014 at 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
like allowing gays to marry who they love.

As long as gays are lobbying for equal rights or whatever, I think they should be entitled to marry for money just like all us hets do. :lol:

Ateo - 2-19-2014 at 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
We spend BILLIONS and BILLIONS to keep people out of the USA.

WOW...that's a bunch of fun tickets, for sure.
I guess it's meaningless that our economy says goodbye to 21 billion dlls [average estimate] in southbound remittances each year.

Quote:

I did inspections at 5 gas stations today. Every one of them had an "illegal alien" working there.

Really????
Did they have the telltale "IA" tattooed on their foreheads? :?:

Speaking of Billions down the drain, let's tax the Churches. That's about $80,000,000,000/YEAR.

As for the illegal alien statement, ask the owners, once you get to know them. Straight to my face, one told me, "Jon, you know most of them don't have papers right?"

Trust me, their illegal status gets used against them.

"Oh......you're gonna make a claim because you hurt your back?"

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Ateo]

toneart - 2-19-2014 at 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Why, thank you, Tony. Nice to see you drop in occasionally.
Anyway.......please keep in mind, one man's bible is another man's bathroom book. :biggrin:

...A very civil post, Dennis! I commend you. I hope you are continuing to recover and wish you the best.

DENNIS - 2-19-2014 at 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

:biggrin:

...A very civil post, Dennis! I commend you. I hope you are continuing to recover and wish you the best.

Thanks, Tony. All is well.

DENNIS - 2-19-2014 at 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo

"Oh......you're gonna make a claim because you hurt your back?"

That would be hitting the jackpot for an illegal these days. Attorney's would beat down his hovel door to represent him in a suit.

Ateo - 2-19-2014 at 07:26 PM

All I will say is debating this stuff on Baja Nomad, is a waste of time. Or.......maybe not. The lurkers are watching. =)

Glad to see you posting Dennis, even though I disagree with you.

And yeah, gays have every right to be as screwed in a marriage as us straights.

=)

:biggrin:

Barry A. - 2-19-2014 at 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
The exact same issue happened a couple of years ago and it was hashed over and over and over right here. Many of the same people who jumped in here were posting in the string a couple of years ago. Barry was the most vocal and vehement in favor of the shooting of a rock thrower by a border patrol agent. We went back and forth and it was a total waste of time.

So...why is this new incident surprising or even discussed here? Nothing has or will change in attitudes. The responses are absolute! They are 180 degrees apart. You can count on the responses being given according to their political ideologies.

For Dennis to quote the attitudes of The American Thinker, a Right Wing Rag, as credible, is typical. That publication still makes sure that Obama's middle name, Hussain, is inserted. They are obsessed by "Communists" and the Liberals enabling poor people with "handouts".

Those who are saying that the rock throwers, or the Border Patrol Agents are stupid does not address the issue. All that does is define what ideology you subscribe to.

I do not beat around the bush with such distracting drivel.I think the shooting incidences are deplorable! They are inhumane. It is no different than when Dick Cheney goes hunting in a deer ranch where the deer are trapped by a surrounding fence. The threat to Cheney and his buddies is that a cornered deer could lash out with their hooves... (or maybe getting shot in the face).

I feel sorry for the families of the deceased. He was some mother's child. (Sound familiar? Hmmm?) I would feel the same for the family of a Border Patrol Agent who might be killed by an unarmed rock thrower (he was some mother's Oaf), but we all know that hypothetical will never happen. So, cut the crap in trying to justify this murder. You guys love it. We hate it. You Wingers make me sick! :fire:

Tony----------about my rants------it is not a "ideological" rant, it is a legal rant. How can one "waste time" discussing and correcting legal matters? What these BP agents are doing is legal, and there are good reasons why it is legal. It is not a moral or political subject-------both liberal and conservative Agents are in the same legal boat, so to speak---------self defense--------and they would be sanctioned (and worse) if they did not generally follow policy, and for good reason----they would be endangering other agents if they did not follow policy.

I am sorry if you can't see it that way, but if you don't you simply are wrong. (from a legal standpoint)

Barry

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Barry A.]

Cisco - 2-19-2014 at 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

How about just stepping out of rock-throwing range instead of shooting another human being Barry?

Or do you not consider them human beings as many on this forum dehumanize someone who is not 'just like them'.

DaliDali - 2-19-2014 at 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jbcoug
Goat,

You think the border patrol agents are not too smart, what does that make the rock thrower? Somewhere around marooon, cretin, imbecil...........

What does that make the goat?..the defender of all who throw objects with the express intent of causing great bodily harm at ANYONE........jerk comes to mind.

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by DaliDali]

Bajaboy - 2-19-2014 at 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

So the shooting never occurred :?:

woody with a view - 2-19-2014 at 08:13 PM

perhaps the chuckers were on a bluff above the BP and maybe a basketball was rolled in the direction of the BP. when he looked up an Indian baseball hit him in the face?

if he turned and ran he should be fired. think how that would enbolden the chuckers until the cows came home..... instead, a lesson was learned. hopefully.... stupidity should be painful!

DianaT - 2-19-2014 at 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

So the shooting never occurred :?:

I should have clarified --- the report of the circumstances that led to the shooting lost all credibility.

liknbaja127 - 2-19-2014 at 08:26 PM

These guys are taught how to protect themselves from day one of training. We can all comment, on there actions, But until you walk in there shoes, I feel it's hard to make judgment. I was also taught not to throw rocks!

Barry A. - 2-19-2014 at 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

So, you would have police hang back "out of range" or worse, retreat "out of range" so as not have to "shoot another human being"? Interesting!!! And how would you have the Agents do their job? Lets suppose that the bad guys were suspected of having guns------should they just remain "out of range", like 2 or 3 etc. miles away? What you are proposing is simply absurd, and renders the Agents as useless and totally ineffective. Like another said above, these Agents did what they have been TRAINED do do from the git-go-------meet lethel force with whatever force is deemed necessary to eliminate or neutralize the threat. Police work IS para-military, you know?!?!?!?!?!?

Barry

Cisco - 2-19-2014 at 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

"So, you would have police hang back "out of range" or worse, retreat "out of range" so as not have to "shoot another human being"

YES! (interesting you use 'retreat') out of rock-throwing range.

"And how would you have the Agents do their job?"

Outside of rock-throwing range certainly is not far enough away for them to "do their job" which I assume is observe.

"Lets suppose that the bad guys were suspected of having guns------should they just remain "out of range", like 2 or 3 etc. miles away?"

My comment regarding stepping out of rock-throwing range had no suppositions attached to it regarding firearms being used by the "other" side and is not a part of this conversation.

"What you are proposing is simply absurd, and renders the Agents as useless and totally ineffective."

How does stepping out of rock-throwing range render the agent ineffective and useless? It seems you are just building on a higher and higher supposition which is just BS.

" Like another said above, these Agents did what they have been TRAINED do do from the git-go-------meet lethel force with whatever force is deemed necessary to eliminate or neutralize the threat."

Seems like getting out of rock-throwing range pretty much neutralizes the threat. Are they taught to do that?

Barry A. - 2-19-2014 at 09:34 PM

Cisco---------Since I was not there, I am talking in generalities and policy and legality. You are talking in specifics, and since neither you nor I was there, all we can say is speculation, it seems to me. I get where you are coming from, but I don't believe you can micro-guess what the Agents did, or were feeling at the time, and this is especially true since it happened presumably in the "heat of battle" at the risk of being overly dramatic. But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on the receiving end.

Barry

Cisco - 2-19-2014 at 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Cisco---------Since I was not there, I am talking in generalities and policy and legality. You are talking in specifics, and since neither you nor I was there, all we can say is speculation, it seems to me. I get where you are coming from, but I don't believe you can micro-guess what the Agents did, or were feeling at the time, and this is especially true since it happened presumably in the "heat of battle" at the risk of being overly dramatic. But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on the receiving end.

Barry

"But I can tell you (I have been there) that having rocks thrown at you with vigor and anger is a very intense situation for the one's on the receiving end."

As I have also. Move away from the threat in the case of a rock fight.

I am not speculating at all Barry. I am responding to an article that said a Border Patrol Officer shot and killed a man who hit him with a thrown rock.

If I were to micro-guess or presume to "feel" what another person was feeling then I would be speculating.

Barry it occurs to me that the type of specious rebuttal you are using here is the type that gets people shot over a parking space dispute, texting in a movie theater or playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station.

By golly those armed citizens were not going to “retreat” from what they perceived as a personal attack even though there was nothing physical about it. Head trippin...

Bajaboy - 2-19-2014 at 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

Quote:

Cisco, comparing a Border Patrol agent on patrol to Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch. Are you suggesting those throwing rocks are not trying to hurt the Border Patrol guards? No the guys throwing the rocks know exactly what they are doing.... :fire:

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy]

Cisco - 2-19-2014 at 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

Quote:

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy]

I was referring to Barry's method of presenting the issue as being erroneous and using examples. That is not the point of this conversation.

My point is to move away from the threat. The threat being rocks thrown not guns.

When he or anyone wanders from that we are wandering from the initial posting.

Cisco - 2-19-2014 at 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

Quote:

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy]

"Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch."

I need an explanation from you as to WTF you are talking about.

I made NO reference to any minority.

David K - 2-19-2014 at 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, The Democratic Socialist Republic of Germany, and other East European socialist nations before the fall of the iron curtain.

Bajaboy - 2-19-2014 at 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

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[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy]

"Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch."

I need an explanation from you as to WTF you are talking about.

I made NO reference to any minority.

Of course you didn't but you did mention "playing loud music in public while driving away from a gas station"...the primary argument in this case is Stand Your Ground. What do you suppose would have happened if the boys in the car being shot at would have returned fire? Well if they were white they would have walked...Stand Your Ground is about as racist as it comes...not saying you are a supporter...just that you referenced it...

Cisco - 2-19-2014 at 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

Quote:

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy]

"Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch."

I need an explanation from you as to WTF you are talking about.

I made NO reference to any minority.

I prefaced his specious rebuttal with: "If I were to micro-guess or presume to "feel" what another person was feeling then I would be speculating."

Then I gave an example AFTER POINTING OUT that that would be speculation and outside of this discussion.

"What do you suppose would have happened if the boys in the car being shot at would have returned fire? Well if they were white they would have walked...Stand Your Ground is about as racist as it comes...not saying you are a supporter...just that you referenced it..."

"What do you suppose" has nothing to do with my statements. They're your fantasy statements and utilizing the same premise that Barry used.

Your statement is absurd and nonsensical.

Bajaboy - 2-19-2014 at 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco

Quote:

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Bajaboy]

"Stand Your Ground laws (aka it's okay to kill a minority law) is a stretch."

I need an explanation from you as to WTF you are talking about.

I made NO reference to any minority.

I stand by my statement....if you look at the facts/statistics...Stand Your Ground supports the majority...

Barry A. - 2-19-2014 at 11:34 PM

For Cisco-----

Wow, --------I now don't have a clue where you are going--------but it was NOT where I was going.

There are no hidden meanings in what I am trying to get across-------my points are very simple.

I am thru with this.

Barry

edited to say: "For Cisco------"

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Barry A.]

Cisco - 2-19-2014 at 11:34 PM

BajaBoy:

As I recall, we had a discussion much like this.

It regarded the fact that a Border Patrol Agent would not be charged for killing two Mexican men as they had died on the Mexican, not American side of the border.

He was not charged.

Same in El Paso where a young (teenage) Mexican male was shot six times IN THE BACK from the U.S. side by a Border Patrolman who had rocks thrown at him. That was a revenge killing, the Mexican posed no threat at that time.

He was not charged.

This is a heavy, deadly, emotional issue and something we all need to think about and address.

There in truth is no reason to shoot someone for throwing rocks. Just move the hell out of the way.

Not charged because they died in another country...ludicrous and an example of the condition of our border and how it affects all of us.

Bajaboy - 2-19-2014 at 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cisco
BajaBoy:

As I recall, we had a discussion much like this.

It regarded the fact that a Border Patrol Agent would not be charged for killing two Mexican men as they had died on the Mexican, not American side of the border.

He was not charged.

Same in El Paso where a young (teenage) Mexican male was shot six times IN THE BACK from the U.S. side by a Border Patrolman who had rocks thrown at him. That was a revenge killing, the Mexican posed no threat at that time.

He was not charged.

This is a heavy, deadly, emotional issue and something we all need to think about and address.

There in truth is no reason to shoot someone for throwing rocks. Just move the hell out of the way.

Not charged because they died in another country...ludicrous and an example of the condition of our border and how it affects all of us.

so you are supporting/condoning throwing rocks at Border Patrol agents? I'm sure these kids were just hanging out before the next church service... :light:

wessongroup - 2-19-2014 at 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

The report in the paper lost all credibility when they mentioned a rock as big as a basketball ---

The guy could have taken a .45 to the chest, if he threw basketball sized rocks ... so, think that rules out basketball size rocks for now :biggrin:

Thanks guys ... a fun one

Cisco ..

"Homicide detectives with the San Diego Sheriff’s Department used fingerprint comparison to identify Jesus Flores-Cruz as the suspect shot to death. The fingerprints of the 41-year-old man matched the records from a 1996 arrest by the US Drug Enforcement Agency, according to detectives.

Flores-Cruz was a suspected illegal immigrant who threw several large rocks at a U.S. Border Patrol agent striking him in the head and prompting him to open fire with his service pistol, fatally wounding him, authorities said.

The identity of the agent involved in the shooting has not been released."

Read more: http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/02/19/man-killed-near-us-mexico...

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by wessongroup]

Cisco - 2-19-2014 at 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

The report in the paper lost all credibility when they mentioned a rock as big as a basketball ---

The guy could have taken a .45 to the chest, if he threw basketball sized rocks ... so, think that rules out basketball size rocks for now :biggrin:

Thanks guys ... a fun one

Cisco ..

Wiley I don't know who you are talking about. I don't know names of the TWO that were shot at San Ysidro. There was also a man killed there, videoed, I don't know what happened there or anything further on the El Paso shooting.

It will be interesting in line if an American is killed by cross border fire while waiting to cross, no adjudication as they died in another country???

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by Cisco]

Cisco - 2-20-2014 at 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

so you are supporting/condoning throwing rocks at Border Patrol agents? I'm sure these kids were just hanging out before the next church service... :light:

Man, you are just full of assumptions.

Of course I do not support or condone throwing rocks at Border Patrol Agents.

I also do not support or condone killing anyone for throwing rocks at Border Patrol agents. MOVE THE *** OUT OF THE WAY!

We are talking about human life here. SIX shots in THE BACK of an unarmed man and no process. Shet!

wessongroup - 2-20-2014 at 04:39 AM

Sorry ... thought the stories were related, appears getting shot throwing rocks is pretty common in San Diego County, at this time

Nye - 2-20-2014 at 07:40 AM

I normally just read here but on this Id like 2 post-(Im a US Army veteran so I hope my loyalties dont come into question). I re; when the border patrol shot the raft out from under some guys and they drowned, also Ive read about the rampant overtime abuses at the border patrol. If the officers fear for their lives then by all means protect yourself,however I firmly believe that this gov agency strongly needs an independent review board. Thank you and have a great day.

Border agents

akshadow - 2-20-2014 at 07:53 AM

Border agents should be concerned about rocks being thrown. (think Goliath and David) If I threw rocks at a local police officer and disobeyed their commands I would not be surprise to be shot. Why should we expect border agents to give people options cause them injury while they are doing their jobs?

DENNIS - 2-20-2014 at 08:02 AM

Welcome to BajaNomad, Nye

Quote:

Originally posted by Nye
(Im a US Army veteran so I hope my loyalties dont come into question).

NEVER.

Quote:

I firmly believe that this gov agency strongly needs an independent review board.

I agree, but that probably won't happen as long as it's in the hands of Homeland Security.

BeemerDan - 2-20-2014 at 10:11 AM

The BP agent in question wasn't threatened, He was ASSAULTED, and responded appropriately.
Ever see a pitcher at a baseball game hit a player with 95+MPH fastball?
Kind of hard to move away from eh? And I bet hurts like hell.
Especially a hit to the head. Last time I checked rocks are a hell of alot harder than baseballs.

DENNIS - 2-20-2014 at 10:43 AM

It's unconscionable that anyone, on either side of the border, would give tacit approval to this vandals actions. I just don't get it.

Bajajorge - 2-20-2014 at 10:50 AM

A person illegally crossing the border is committing a felony. While crossing that border he batters a federal officer with an object which is considered to be a deadly weapon, also a felony.
The federal officer kills the FELON, so what's the problem?

Ateo - 2-20-2014 at 11:00 AM

I wonder why he thought throwing rocks would be a good idea? Just an honest question. Does this normally help them escape the BP?

bajaguy - 2-20-2014 at 11:06 AM

He was a convicted felon due to drug charges and probably didn't want to go back to prison.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
I wonder why he thought throwing rocks would be a good idea? Just an honest question. Does this normally help them escape the BP?

Barry A. - 2-20-2014 at 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
He was a convicted felon due to drug charges and probably didn't want to go back to prison.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
I wonder why he thought throwing rocks would be a good idea? Just an honest question. Does this normally help them escape the BP?

Possibly--------but did he think throwing rocks would somehow help him to avoid that? (Criminal minds do work in strange ways)

As said before, Darwinism in action!?!?!?

Barry

mtgoat666 - 2-20-2014 at 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
It's unconscionable that anyone, on either side of the border, would give tacit approval to this vandals actions. I just don't get it.

well, we have only heard one side of the story. Past history has shown that LEOs frequently lie... so awaiting the INDEPENDENT investigation results (no, i won't trust results of internal investigation)

mtgoat666 - 2-20-2014 at 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajorge
A person illegally crossing the border is committing a felony. While crossing that border he batters a federal officer with an object which is considered to be a deadly weapon, also a felony.
The federal officer kills the FELON, so what's the problem?

the officers story is just a story until proven true. never trust the initial spin from govt,... takes time for truth to float to the top of the BS

Cypress - 2-20-2014 at 11:31 AM

The guy was breaking the law, he assaulted the boarder patrol agent. Actions have consequences, in this case they were fatal. He won't be breaking any more laws.

mtgoat666 - 2-20-2014 at 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
I wonder why he thought throwing rocks would be a good idea? Just an honest question. Does this normally help them escape the BP?

so far, there is no independent proof the guy threw rocks. has an unbiased source verified the rock throwing story?

Barry A. - 2-20-2014 at 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

the officers story is just a story until proven true. never trust the initial spin from govt,... takes time for truth to float to the top of the BS

Goat------you seem to be saying that you are more than willing to support and champion the Felon's side of this incident and condemn the officer as a murderer, until proven otherwise-------do I have that right???

Barry

DENNIS - 2-20-2014 at 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
I wonder why he thought throwing rocks would be a good idea? Just an honest question. Does this normally help them escape the BP?

It's a "border game", taunting the BP, and these mow-rons get their heads into their macho "Bullfighter Syndrome," pushing the envelope. You regularly see this behavior at the car races....seeing how close they can get to a maneating trophy truck. Mexicans have this cultural affinity to death which they think is admired by their peers. Sometimes, it goes bad for their image.
It's also used as a diversion. It's common, and many BP do back away out of range. If not, we'd hear these shooting stories every day.
Have you ever seen the vehicles the BP use to drive along the fence? Heavily armored against flying rocks.

We need an "irrigation moat" a half mile wide from the Gulf to the Pacific posted with "No Lifeguards On Duty" signs.

.

[Edited on 2-21-2014 by DENNIS]

DENNIS - 2-20-2014 at 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

the officers story is just a story until proven true.

How very uhhhh...Mexican. Just like their justice system.

aguachico - 2-20-2014 at 12:27 PM

Discussing this incident with a few locals here in TJ last night over beers. The words used were PNCHE CULRO Y P-nche ESTUPIDO. These words were for the rock thrower. The discussion turned to how pollos have more rights with the EEUU immigration. Over the 18 pack it was agreed that there's no reason to throw rocks at the agent as some in the group have been in the scenario running both north and south.

One in particular is from Salvador. He spoke about how bad the Mexican migra is to central and south Americans.

I hope the CBP agent is OK. One less rata to deal with. If that rata was voilent enough to throw rockas at an armed LEO, imagine what he would do to your unarmed family...

Cisco - 2-20-2014 at 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by aguachico
Discussing this incident with a few locals here in TJ last night over beers. The words used were PNCHE CULRO Y P-nche ESTUPIDO. These words were for the rock thrower. The discussion turned to how pollos have more rights with the EEUU immigration. Over the 18 pack it was agreed that there's no reason to throw rocks at the agent as some in the group have been in the scenario running both north and south.

One in particular is from Salvador. He spoke about how bad the Mexican migra is to central and south Americans.

I hope the CBP agent is OK. One less rata to deal with. If that rata was voilent enough to throw rockas at an armed LEO, imagine what he would do to your unarmed family...

"JOHN CARLOS FREY: The most recent report that I’ve read and the report that comes out of those that are investigating in the sheriff’s department in the area say that a Border Patrol agent was in pursuit of a migrant, separated from his partner. He was by himself. The suspected migrant started throwing rocks. There’s even an allegation that he threw a basketball-sized rock towards the agent—I’m not quite sure how you can do that. And the agent opened fire, fired twice, striking the migrant and killing him. And this seems to be a pattern. Obviously, the migrant’s not going to be able to speak up for himself as to what happened. But agents are allowed to use deadly force when being confronted with rock throwing. And that seems to be what happened here.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And how is the Border Patrol justifying its rejection of a recommendation of its own inspector general on its policies for shootings of unarmed migrants?

JOHN CARLOS FREY: If you take a look at the recommendations, they’re actually quite sane. PERF, which is the think tank, the Police Executive Research Forum, it’s a group of law enforcement officers, professionals, who recommended to U.S. Border Patrol agents not necessarily to take away any sort of use of force when confronted with rock throwers, but to tamp it down, to de-escalate the situation, to move from the area, to actually physically move from the region where rocks are being thrown, or to take cover or to use nonlethal force. Those were the recommendations by PERF, and Border Patrol decided to deny all of those. They would like to still be able to use deadly force.

They claim in the past 10 years there have been about 6,000 confrontations with rock throwers. But there never has been an agent killed by rock throwers, so the use of deadly force seems a bit excessive, if agents themselves have never been killed by rocks. If you go to any major law enforcement agency in the country, in the United States, killing or shooting rock throwers, using guns to shoot rock throwers, would be forbidden by police agencies across the country. So it’s interesting that Border Patrol claim that it’s a necessity for them."

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/excessive_force_migran...

wessongroup - 2-20-2014 at 03:21 PM

Thanks aguachico .. for the input over a few beers with the guys ... sounds spot on .. IMHO

toneart - 2-20-2014 at 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
I wonder why he thought throwing rocks would be a good idea? Just an honest question. Does this normally help them escape the BP?

It's a "border game", taunting the BP, and these mow-rons get their heads into their macho "Bullfighter Syndrome," pushing the envelope. You regularly see this behavior at the car races....seeing how close they can get to a maneating trophy truck. Mexicans have this cultural affinity to death which they think is admired by their peers. Sometimes, it goes bad for their image.
It's also used as a diversion. It's common, and many BP do back away out of range. If not, we'd hear these shooting stories every day.
Have you ever seen the vehicles the BP uses to drive along the fence? Heavily armored against flying rocks.

We need an "irrigation moat" a half mile wide from the Gulf to the Pacific posted with "No Lifeguards On Duty" signs.

Very good, Dennis! That is a pretty good understanding of their cultural dance with death..."The macho Bullfighter's Syndrome". That does explain a typical Mexican (male's) motivation.

People keep bringing up how stupid it was for the victim (my word) to throw the rock. I doubt whether anyone would refute that. But that is not the issue. The issue is that an armed BP agent shot and killed an unarmed man. To a man, what you think about the incident falls clearly within one polemic or the other. We ARE different. That always amazes me but it is so predictable.

We are a nation of Law. However, just because a law exists doesn't always make it morally right or just. There are a lot of variables within that philosophy; religion, Humanism, compassion, childhood circumstance, etc.

To be a free society we must question authority. legally; not by acts of violence. Remember, Adolph Eichmann's defense said that he "was just following orders". I guess poor ol' Adolf dared not to question anyone with his first name.

When a preventable act of violence is committed by LE and then condoned by his peers, then the law he stands behind needs to be questioned, taken to court and challenged. A rogue cop is NOT the ultimate authority.

DENNIS - 2-20-2014 at 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
The issue is that an armed BP agent shot and killed an unarmed man.

Tony....he wasn't unarmed. His weapon was only, briefly empty. Had he fired a pistol at the agent...shot until the clip was empty.......would he at that moment be unarmed?
Certainly not.
The guy was standing on his arsenal....rocks/ammo everywhere. Do you think that was the first rock he ever threw at the BP? Most likely not, but I, for one, am glad it will be his last.

.

[Edited on 2-20-2014 by DENNIS]

toneart - 2-20-2014 at 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
The issue is that an armed BP agent shot and killed an unarmed man.

Tony....he wasn't unarmed. His weapon was only empty. Had he fired a pistol at the agent...shot until the clip was empty.......would he at that moment be unarmed?
Certainly not.
The guy was standing on his arsenal....rocks/ammo everywhere. Do you think that was the first rock he ever threw at the BP? Most likely not, but I, for one, am glad it will be his last.

OH! I hadn't read that he had fired a pistol at the agent. Was that revealed anywhere in this string?

Then, if true, it would appear the BP agent's action was justified. What's fair is fair. I am a fair man.

But what I said applies to the other 20 or so incidences within recent years of lethal BP killing of Mojados.

DENNIS - 2-20-2014 at 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

OH! I hadn't read that he had fired a pistol at the agent. Was that revealed anywhere in this string?

" Had he fired a pistol at the agent...shot until the clip was empty....."

It was a question.

Quote:

But what I said applies to the other 20 or so incidences within recent years of lethal BP killing of Mojados.

"Mojados/wets" aren't combative, Tony. They don't look for trouble. They know the game and go peacefully when apprehended. They aren't being gunned down by the BP.
Gang bangers, cartel employees and other marginalized scum are in it to break the law.

aguachico - 2-20-2014 at 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Thanks aguachico .. for the input over a few beers with the guys ... sounds spot on .. IMHO

You are quite welcome. As there is no better opinion then from those who have experienced it - as I'm sure this board doesn't contain many if any pollos o polloleros.

Bajahowodd - 2-20-2014 at 06:03 PM

For me, the bottom line here is that we have over controlled a border between us and fundamentally decent folks. And what further stuns me is that there are factions in our government seeking greater control.

Our friends to the South are not committing crimes against humanity. They are not developing technology to launch nuclear missiles.

The Mexican culture is deeply embedded in our Southwest and can be found just about everywhere throughout the states.

You folks on this forum have regular interchange with the folks in Mexico. How do they feel about draconian measures to keep them out?

Life is short. The US is a very wealthy and well armed nation. The idea of taking these draconian measures to exclude our neighbors to the South simply does not make any rational sense to me.

And for all of you who can recall almost no delays at the border heading North, have fun sitting in line for hours.

DENNIS - 2-20-2014 at 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
You folks on this forum have regular interchange with the folks in Mexico. How do they feel about draconian measures to keep them out?

Mexico has two borders, Howard. They are worlds apart in more ways than one, and draconian measures are in place at both.
Most Nationals I know don't go out of their way to discuss either place, but they're aware of all of it.

Bajaboy - 2-20-2014 at 11:27 PM

Every time I watch COPS on tv and see some idiot run from the police....I tell my wife it should be "all bets off" on the assailant....yes there are abuses on the side of police but when put in perspective, I am amazed at the bs they put up with on a daily basis....this extends to border patrol agents as well.

For those of you that want to continue to make excuses for society's dooty....

Bajajorge - 2-21-2014 at 09:27 AM

Goat, are you a whining, bleeding heart, liberal defense attorney in real life?
Maybe the poor rock throwing felon only did it because he was traumatized as a child by his mother who forced him to eat his oatmeal every morning.
:biggrin:

Bajafun777 - 2-21-2014 at 09:37 AM

Let's see since 2002 we have had 26 Border Patrol Officers die in the line of duty and people still don't understand the amount of danger along our border? The guy that was throwing rocks they damn sure were not small and he had been arrested by DEA and deported in the past, He was being chased and ordered in Spanish and English to stop instead as they ran down the ravine and up the side of the mountain he picked up a bigger rock throwing it down upon the officer that was struck by it and fire his weapon in self defense, If the agent would have gone totally down his weapon could have been taken and he could have been killed like Border Patrol Offcer Rojas was in the backcountry, These individuals are directed by officers to stop and instead they aggressively go after these officers, Enough said these officers are defending themelves and these individuals have mean dangerous intensions towards these officers,
G a very dangerous job,

mtgoat666 - 2-21-2014 at 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajajorge
Goat, are you a whining, bleeding heart, liberal defense attorney in real life?

partly correct, just a bleeding heart liberal and proud of it!

chuckie - 2-21-2014 at 06:09 PM

So Sorry for you....keep cashing my checks....

Bajahowodd - 2-22-2014 at 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
You folks on this forum have regular interchange with the folks in Mexico. How do they feel about draconian measures to keep them out?

But my point is that there are far worse border situations around the world. Ones that involve military dictatorships, folks who are developing nuclear weapons, and folks that are violating human rights on a huge, appalling scale.

I just can't wrap my head around the idea that the Godfather of the Republican party signed an amnesty bill. Yet, today, his so-called acolytes won't touch immigration reform with a long stick.

On a different note, I am greatly encouraged to see what is happening in Ukraine. Having been there a few times, I am happy that apparently the will of the people can work. That said, please tell me the difference between the will of the people and democracy, inasmuch as a far greater number of Americans want immigration reform. It's the will of the people, but apparently not democracy.

It's kind of like the war on drugs. Once corporate and government interests are enriching themselves in the battle, no change can occur.