EL NIÑO/SOUTHERN OSCILLATION (ENSO) DIAGNOSTIC DISCUSSION

Aren't these the same evil scientists that are suggesting climate change is real?

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Originally posted by Bajaboy Aren't these the same evil scientists that are suggesting climate change is real?

The SST has been warm, but no rain. That's what's been so different about this situation. Where's the water?

I hear ya. I was actually referring to the report that came out a few weeks ago (or that's when I saw it) from some large group of int'l climate scientists, that said it appeared we were in for an El Nino, or that's what their models were showing.

There is no 'normal' but for change... Nobody has been alive long enough to know what 'normal' is.

I think it is funny that just when Jerry Brown (a politician) declares a drought emergency, we next hear big wet rain is coming.

Weather cycles... some years are dry and hot and others are cool and wet. Soon after the 'Global Warming' scare was made, the world temps have been cooling each year since! Man is not more powerful than Nature, nor can change Nature (the weather). The scam is only making a few rich (including government) and by raising your taxes, energy costs will not change the weather!

One storm helps a little, but it does not end the drought conditions.

Rain totals are still way down as is the snow pack, so the emergency still exists. Brown's declaration is based on facts.

I can assure you that the people in this part of the state are not laughing. The current drought has seriously harmed the economy of this and other parts of the state and the emergency declaration was and is still needed.

Nice that you find it hilarious.

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Originally posted by David K There is no 'normal' but for change... Nobody has been alive long enough to know what 'normal' is. I think it is funny that just when Jerry Brown (a politician) declares a drought emergency, we next hear big wet rain is coming. Weather cycles... some years are dry and hot and others are cool and wet. Soon after the 'Global Warming' scare was made, the world temps have been cooling each year since! Man is not more powerful than Nature, nor can change Nature (the weather). The scam is only making a few rich (including government) and by raising your taxes, energy costs will not change the weather!

The economics of preparing for climate change (whether you believe it or not)

Speaking of oscillations ... in the oceans currents, and changes, there is also a linkage in "winds aloft" and/or "jet steams"

Evidence linking Arctic amplification to extreme weather in mid-latitudes

Bit of a read, however, the findings do provide some degree of explanation for some of the weather extremes which are being observed and documented

http://marine.rutgers.edu/~francis/pres/Francis_Vavrus_2012G...

Current's in the oceans tend to impact many environmental factors and the many "feedback" loops which are linked to same

Watch out for those "pebbles" Osprey

[Edited on 3-11-2014 by wessongroup]

jbcoug

The Idea Wouldn't Work Anyway :(

Not even with Direct Current hydroelectric generation aiding pumping stations humping over the cascades.

The politicians and speculators would get their hands on the water and agriculture would not benefit. Vast lawns and olympic size swimming pools in Malley-Boo and Hollyweird would get first dibs.

The water would have to go into narrow and deep concrete lined canals and be constitutionally mandated for agriculture.

Keep dreaming David

97% of the Climate Scientists surveyed? That survey has already been debunked. Facts aren't agreeing with the climate change model, don't guess we need any "stinking facts". Ignoring and insulting anyone that might disagree with the politically correct crowd is the usual response. As far as the water situation? Those folks in that region better get very innovative.

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Originally posted by Cypress 97% of the Climate Scientists surveyed? That survey has already been debunked. Facts aren't agreeing with the climate change model, don't guess we need any "stinking facts". Ignoring and insulting anyone that might disagree with the politically correct crowd is the usual response. As far as the water situation? Those folks in that region better get very innovative.

Please share the "facts". Debunked by whom? Please point me in the right direction so I can be better informed.

I anxiously await your response. Really.

The concept of "wasted" rarely exists in nature

I always wonder how nature is assumed to be "wasteful." Since people weren't hunting/fishing in big boats not that long ago, were all those fish in the seas "wasted" by us not eating them

Likewise, the water in Owens Valley, that has fed into Mono Lake and created those wonderful "tufa" formations, long before LA needed it, was never "wasted" by the local environment. It fed plants, animals, etc. Mark Twain marvelled at Mono Lake's productivity and wrote about it. (He hated the flies along the shore)

Maybe it didn't produce a huge agricultural boom, but the ecosystem that evolved relied on that water. When it was diverted via Muholland's aqueduct lots of bad things happened.

(I know we have a Nomad who lives near Bishop- perhaps she can add some details?)

Examples:

Wildlife: birds nesting on islands in Mono Lake were nearly wiped out as the water level declined and predators were able to reach the nesting grounds. Ground nesting is common in many areas, but is also a delicate balancing act. These birds included many of the gulls that we see along the coasts. So the impacts on wildlife were felt hundreds, even thousands of miles away.

Air quality: The groundwater helped keep the alkali dust in place- when LA diverted the water, the 'dust bowl" conditions were so bad that asthma soared in the valley. It has improved, but the air quality in that region is still worse than it was before the "straw" began sucking water south.

Local groundwater supplies: as surface water is drained away, wells dry up for local households, making it more expensive and reducing its quality.

And in the end, a lawsuit forced LA to conserve water. Guess what: they managed to use much less, once they were forced to, and the levels in Mono Lake have recovered, along with the birds etc.

Finally, today on the radio I heard Gov. Brown basically say: prepare to be told to remove your lawns if these dry weather conditions continue. The "recommendations" and "suggestions" that have been used in the past may soon be replaced with mandates.

I use "duct tape" ... helps with "explosions" too ...

Lets toss in the "Delta" in CA too ...

Climax community or "Steady State Community" ... that is wasteful ... interesting thought, think the wasteful part comes in, with a "certain" species ... I won't mention any names

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climax_community

[Edited on 3-12-2014 by wessongroup]

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Originally posted by Whale-ista I always wonder how nature is assumed to be "wasteful." Since people weren't hunting/fishing in big boats not that long ago, were all those fish in the seas "wasted" by us not eating them Likewise, the water in Owens Valley, that has fed into Mono Lake and created those wonderful "tufa" formations, long before LA needed it, was never "wasted" by the local environment. It fed plants, animals, etc. Mark Twain marvelled at Mono Lake's productivity and wrote about it. (He hated the flies along the shore) Maybe it didn't produce a huge agricultural boom, but the ecosystem that evolved relied on that water. When it was diverted via Muholland's aqueduct lots of bad things happened. (I know we have a Nomad who lives near Bishop- perhaps she can add some details?) Examples: Wildlife: birds nesting on islands in Mono Lake were nearly wiped out as the water level declined and predators were able to reach the nesting grounds. Ground nesting is common in many areas, but is also a delicate balancing act. These birds included many of the gulls that we see along the coasts. So the impacts on wildlife were felt hundreds, even thousands of miles away. Air quality: The groundwater helped keep the alkali dust in place- when LA diverted the water, the 'dust bowl" conditions were so bad that asthma soared in the valley. It has improved, but the air quality in that region is still worse than it was before the "straw" began sucking water south. Local groundwater supplies: as surface water is drained away, wells dry up for local households, making it more expensive and reducing its quality. And in the end, a lawsuit forced LA to conserve water. Guess what: they managed to use much less, once they were forced to, and the levels in Mono Lake have recovered, along with the birds etc. Finally, today on the radio I heard Gov. Brown basically say: prepare to be told to remove your lawns if these dry weather conditions continue. The "recommendations" and "suggestions" that have been used in the past may soon be replaced with mandates.

It all flows some place ... just that sometimes the flow and direction is changed ... with obvious impacts both positive and negative

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_lake#Conservation_efforts

And when it gets a bit short ... things really change ... fast

This has made me thirsty

[Edited on 3-12-2014 by wessongroup]

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Originally posted by Barry A. Quote: Originally posted by Whale-ista I always wonder how nature is assumed to be "wasteful." Since people weren't hunting/fishing in big boats not that long ago, were all those fish in the seas "wasted" by us not eating them Likewise, the water in Owens Valley, that has fed into Mono Lake and created those wonderful "tufa" formations, long before LA needed it, was never "wasted" by the local environment. It fed plants, animals, etc. Mark Twain marvelled at Mono Lake's productivity and wrote about it. (He hated the flies along the shore) Maybe it didn't produce a huge agricultural boom, but the ecosystem that evolved relied on that water. When it was diverted via Muholland's aqueduct lots of bad things happened. (I know we have a Nomad who lives near Bishop- perhaps she can add some details?) Examples: Wildlife: birds nesting on islands in Mono Lake were nearly wiped out as the water level declined and predators were able to reach the nesting grounds. Ground nesting is common in many areas, but is also a delicate balancing act. These birds included many of the gulls that we see along the coasts. So the impacts on wildlife were felt hundreds, even thousands of miles away. Air quality: The groundwater helped keep the alkali dust in place- when LA diverted the water, the 'dust bowl" conditions were so bad that asthma soared in the valley. It has improved, but the air quality in that region is still worse than it was before the "straw" began sucking water south. Local groundwater supplies: as surface water is drained away, wells dry up for local households, making it more expensive and reducing its quality. And in the end, a lawsuit forced LA to conserve water. Guess what: they managed to use much less, once they were forced to, and the levels in Mono Lake have recovered, along with the birds etc. Finally, today on the radio I heard Gov. Brown basically say: prepare to be told to remove your lawns if these dry weather conditions continue. The "recommendations" and "suggestions" that have been used in the past may soon be replaced with mandates. It's all in how you look at it, isn't it? ---but a few nit-picky points: (1) My Family lived in Owens Valley (near Bishop, and near Independence) from the '20's until now----none of them ever developed "asthma", thank Gawd, and the "dust bowl" statements are a tad overstated, but yes air-quality did deterioriate after Owens Lake and the Owens River bed dried up. That is now being rectified because of additional Law suits which went against the City of LA, and my Family is involved in that correction at the Lake. (2) No "Owens Valley water" flows into Mono Lake, now or in the past. But the rest of your "Mono Lake" points are correct except that the Lake is far from "recovered"-----that will take years, and some very good winter rains and snowpack, but it is rising slowly but surely. (3) The "Law suits" that you refer to required DWP (city of LA) to reduce some of their diversions from Mono Lake's watershed-----how LA coped with that was outside the scope of the Law suit, as I understand it. (4) Owens Valley water tables have fluxuated over the years, but have remained fairly stable most of the time, and few wells actually dried up. Some surface wild trees did die, however. There have been additional Law suits on this matter that mostly corrected any problems----again the City of LA lost those battles. They were sucking to much ground water at times, especially during dry years. Californians do waste a lot of water, especially SoCal residents, and they may be in for a rude awaking, you are correct. Having lived in San Diego for 30 years, Owens Valley for 10 years, and then the Imperial Valley for another 13 years, I am very familiar with SoCal water problems from a human point of view.. Barry

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup It all flows some place ... just that sometimes the flow and direction is changed ... with obvious impacts both positive and negative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_lake#Conservation_efforts And when it gets a bit short ... things really change ... fast This has made me thirsty [Edited on 3-12-2014 by wessongroup]

If you can (truthfully) not Google the term POCONIP

and know what it means, then do the same with a deceased individual by the name of DAVID GAINES, then you know about the mono basin. Pool Plant, Black, point, Paohoa and Negrit count as extra points. What kind of fish in Gibbs lake and creek, then the first names of the "Nicely's" the original owners of the restaurant put you in the "expert" category.

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Originally posted by Barry A. Quote: Originally posted by Whale-ista I always wonder how nature is assumed to be "wasteful." Since people weren't hunting/fishing in big boats not that long ago, were all those fish in the seas "wasted" by us not eating them Likewise, the water in Owens Valley, that has fed into Mono Lake and created those wonderful "tufa" formations, long before LA needed it, was never "wasted" by the local environment. It fed plants, animals, etc. Mark Twain marvelled at Mono Lake's productivity and wrote about it. (He hated the flies along the shore) Maybe it didn't produce a huge agricultural boom, but the ecosystem that evolved relied on that water. When it was diverted via Muholland's aqueduct lots of bad things happened. (I know we have a Nomad who lives near Bishop- perhaps she can add some details?) Examples: Wildlife: birds nesting on islands in Mono Lake were nearly wiped out as the water level declined and predators were able to reach the nesting grounds. Ground nesting is common in many areas, but is also a delicate balancing act. These birds included many of the gulls that we see along the coasts. So the impacts on wildlife were felt hundreds, even thousands of miles away. Air quality: The groundwater helped keep the alkali dust in place- when LA diverted the water, the 'dust bowl" conditions were so bad that asthma soared in the valley. It has improved, but the air quality in that region is still worse than it was before the "straw" began sucking water south. Local groundwater supplies: as surface water is drained away, wells dry up for local households, making it more expensive and reducing its quality. And in the end, a lawsuit forced LA to conserve water. Guess what: they managed to use much less, once they were forced to, and the levels in Mono Lake have recovered, along with the birds etc. Finally, today on the radio I heard Gov. Brown basically say: prepare to be told to remove your lawns if these dry weather conditions continue. The "recommendations" and "suggestions" that have been used in the past may soon be replaced with mandates. It's all in how you look at it, isn't it? ---but a few nit-picky points: (1) My Family lived in Owens Valley (near Bishop, and near Independence) from the '20's until now----none of them ever developed "asthma", thank Gawd, and the "dust bowl" statements are a tad overstated, but yes air-quality did deterioriate after Owens Lake and the Owens River bed dried up. That is now being rectified because of additional Law suits which went against the City of LA, and my Family is involved in that correction at the Lake. (2) No "Owens Valley water" flows into Mono Lake, now or in the past. But the rest of your "Mono Lake" points are correct except that the Lake is far from "recovered"-----that will take years, and some very good winter rains and snowpack, but it is rising slowly but surely. (3) The "Law suits" that you refer to required DWP (city of LA) to reduce some of their diversions from Mono Lake's watershed-----how LA coped with that was outside the scope of the Law suit, as I understand it. (4) Owens Valley water tables have fluxuated over the years, but have remained fairly stable most of the time, and few wells actually dried up. Some surface wild trees did die, however. There have been additional Law suits on this matter that mostly corrected any problems----again the City of LA lost those battles. They were sucking to much ground water at times, especially during dry years. Californians do waste a lot of water, especially SoCal residents, and they may be in for a rude awaking, you are correct. Having lived in San Diego for 30 years, Owens Valley for 10 years, and then the Imperial Valley for another 13 years, I am very familiar with SoCal water problems from a human point of view.. Barry

thanks to everyone for an interesting discussion on water, drought, climate change etc.

Barry,
Yes San Francisco gets their water from Hetch Hetchy which I understand was a magnificent place before the dam. Mulholland wanted to dam up the Yosemite Valley and he was serious! Again, I guess one could argue that all that water is wasted ---- not me, however.

Of course the DWP is saying they are doing all they can on the dust abatement, and they are also trying to stop much of it! And of course, LA wants more and more water --- got to water all those golf courses,

The planting of trees is the result of another law suit. One place they are planting them all neatly in a row like a tree farm is the corner on 395 on the other side of 168 from the Big Pine.

And please, I am NOT misquoting DK. I did not say he thought the drought was hilarious, I was referring to his thinking the declaration of the drought emergency was hilarious. Sorry, but knowing how badly many people are hurting because of the drought and the declaration can help, I find nothing "hilarious" about it. There was nothing for effect as you asked, I was seriously curious if you also think the declaration of a drought emergency was hilarious.

First quote

Barry, that is exactly what I said and how I meant it... but you read from left to right... instead of starting right, and always going LEFT!

The effects of an EL NIÑO ... would not be limited to just Baja ... just saying

And the ramifications deserve close study, at this time ... IMHO

Good to see there is a discussion on currents, water and its impact on the human species, and/or our concept of "living" ... a very delicate balance which can change, every thing does ... it's called evolution ... good or bad

Important topic, as one can see

and that sounds like a familiar complaint, eh
.
.
p.s. it used to be that discussing the weather was polite small talk chit chat,... until the extremist wing of the GOP made weather a lightning rod issue

Yep!!!!!

Barry

What is your obsession with Al Gore?

"...high information voters........extremist wacko liberals........passionate........free and unafraid...........false science......"

You crack me up. flocking ridiculous.

Volcanoes -

Volcanoes emit around 0.3 billion tonnes of CO2 per year. This is about 1% of human CO2 emissions which is around 29 billion tonnes per year.

Scientific fact.

No there is no wasting of water....the over flowing town pila makes a wonderful stream behind my casita....we also enjoy the little ponds just before town from the leaking water pipes....nope David no one was caught "borrowing" water from neighbors either after the meters went in....

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Originally posted by elgatoloco Volcanoes - Volcanoes emit around 0.3 billion tonnes of CO2 per year. This is about 1% of human CO2 emissions which is around 29 billion tonnes per year. Scientific fact.

CO2 isn't all that volcanoes emit... why stop there?

BUT, CO2 is how plants breathe... No CO2 than no life on earth.

A massive volcano eruption doesn't happen every year, but when it does... the earth is affected for many years, putting us in climatic changes, even... A volcano (like Krakatoa) can... Americans driving cars or Ford trucks can't... Don't feel guilty and don't feed Al Gore!

Time for a Baja trip perhaps?

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Originally posted by David K Quote: Originally posted by elgatoloco Volcanoes - Volcanoes emit around 0.3 billion tonnes of CO2 per year. This is about 1% of human CO2 emissions which is around 29 billion tonnes per year. Scientific fact. CO2 isn't all that volcanoes emit... why stop there? BUT, CO2 is how plants breathe... No CO2 than no life on earth. A massive volcano eruption doesn't happen every year, but when it does... the earth is affected for many years, putting us in climatic changes, even... A volcano (like Krakatoa) can... Americans driving cars or Ford trucks can't... Don't feel guilty and don't feed Al Gore! Time for a Baja trip perhaps?

Feed Me

Quote:

Originally posted by David K Quote: Originally posted by elgatoloco Volcanoes - Volcanoes emit around 0.3 billion tonnes of CO2 per year. This is about 1% of human CO2 emissions which is around 29 billion tonnes per year. Scientific fact. CO2 isn't all that volcanoes emit... why stop there? BUT, CO2 is how plants breathe... No CO2 than no life on earth. A massive volcano eruption doesn't happen every year, but when it does... the earth is affected for many years, putting us in climatic changes, even... A volcano (like Krakatoa) can... Americans driving cars or Ford trucks can't... Don't feel guilty and don't feed Al Gore! Time for a Baja trip perhaps?

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Originally posted by Mexitron Quote: Originally posted by David K Quote: Originally posted by elgatoloco Volcanoes - Volcanoes emit around 0.3 billion tonnes of CO2 per year. This is about 1% of human CO2 emissions which is around 29 billion tonnes per year. Scientific fact. CO2 isn't all that volcanoes emit... why stop there? BUT, CO2 is how plants breathe... No CO2 than no life on earth. A massive volcano eruption doesn't happen every year, but when it does... the earth is affected for many years, putting us in climatic changes, even... A volcano (like Krakatoa) can... Americans driving cars or Ford trucks can't... Don't feel guilty and don't feed Al Gore! Time for a Baja trip perhaps? Volcanoes tend to cool the climate, at least short term---most of the outflow is sulphur compounds, not so much CO2.

climate scientists that disagree with my politics are liars

and if the facts are inconvenient truths, then declare them lies

climate scientists that disagree with my politics are obviously liars!

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Originally posted by mtgoat666 Quote: Originally posted by David K Thanks for your time Steve... facts are good. and if the facts are inconvenient truths, then declare them lies climate scientists that disagree with my politics are obviously liars!