BajaNomad

San Juanico in Danger again.....

StraighouttaOside - 11-3-2014 at 06:13 PM

Just thought that I should share this. I wish that I could make it to the meeting this Wednesday but just can't swing it. Bajanomads show up in force if you can!!

http://www.savethewaves.org/news/update-phosphate-mining-thr...

rts551 - 11-3-2014 at 06:22 PM

good luck. Its an uphill battle..and some feel that Mother Nature can take care of herself.

Ateo - 11-3-2014 at 06:30 PM

Love the name StraightouttaOside!

Thanks for the link. Not sure where I stand.

[Edited on 11-4-2014 by Ateo]

DaliDali - 11-3-2014 at 07:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
good luck. Its an uphill battle..and some feel that Mother Nature can take care of herself.


She will....in the form of another hurricane running up the west coast of Baja..laying waste to an offshore rig.

Wait for her. She is coming. All good things take time.

805gregg - 11-3-2014 at 07:37 PM

It's Mexico money talks, talk to the rich surfers?

rts551 - 11-3-2014 at 07:59 PM

Straight

I live in Abreojos and have not heard any about this. To help me along, what evidence (factual studies) do you have that this dredging will impact the ecosystem...especially to your North...the Estuaries for the whales and the coast lines of lobster and Abalone.

Sweetwater - 11-3-2014 at 08:18 PM

Quote:

The project proposes using marine dredges to a) dredge phosphatic sand from the ocean floor and b) prepare it for transport using a desalination barge. The work area is located 12 miles from the nearest point to the coast and adjacent to the fishing area called San Juanico.


All things being equal, I see this as an alarmist posting that doesn't deal with the reality of a dredging/barge operation. And as this type of operation is weather sensitive, it certainly won't be conducted 24/7. Let's focus on reality rather than reactionism.....

wilderone - 11-4-2014 at 09:43 AM

I emailed josecarlos.cota@semarnat.gob.mx to express my views.

Their EIA states, among other points:
No testing to remote coastal areas has been determined. Due to the water depth and environmental considerations, there is minimal vegetation in this area.
[So too are the flats of Florida. Barracuda, shark, rays, crabs, halibut, etc, etc. require minimal vegetation.]
Seabed sediments are removed by a process similar to a vacuum cleaner . . and removed sediments to a depth of 30-60 cm. repeated dredging . . . can result in a lowering of the seabed by 5 m or more.
The direct impacts of dredging on the seabed include potential impacts on seabed organisms. Few if any of the seabed organisms that are removed in the path of the draghead are likely to survive the dredging process. 60-80% of the benthic fauna are removed.
[How can this be a good thing?]
Once the cargo hold is filled, overflow from spillways enters the water, in a dispersing plume below the surface where plankton occurs.
[And flows where? Into what current? Taking deposits where? To settle on what distant ecosystem?]

I only read a few pages. By any interpretation, it is a drastic disturbance to a BAY - most of the bay - which is a special geographic consideration on its own.

woody with a view - 11-4-2014 at 09:50 AM

but it is 12 miles from land! I highly doubt that the currents flow right into 3rd point from 12 miles out.

mtgoat666 - 11-4-2014 at 10:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwater
Quote:

The project proposes using marine dredges to a) dredge phosphatic sand from the ocean floor and b) prepare it for transport using a desalination barge. The work area is located 12 miles from the nearest point to the coast and adjacent to the fishing area called San Juanico.


All things being equal, I see this as an alarmist posting that doesn't deal with the reality of a dredging/barge operation. And as this type of operation is weather sensitive, it certainly won't be conducted 24/7. Let's focus on reality rather than reactionism.....


actually, these large dredges do operate 24/7/365 without a care for weather. only a hurricane or maintenance would cause them to stop for a few days.

full scale seabed mining of phosphate has not been done. people have proposed this in namibia and new zealand, and got shut out by local opposition. now they are trying to trick mexico into allowing their environment to be guinea pig.

the miners will tell you the sea floor is dead zone. it's actually an ecosystem with sparse macroscopic fauna and flora, it is still an ecosystem, despite the apparent sparseness of flora and fauna.

the dredging will in fact destroy the seabed ecology at the dredging locations. the plume of sediment from dredge output will make local water column hostile to pelagic sea life. the effects on the environment are very large. one has to really consider if the economic benefits of mining outweigh the ecosystem destruction. the miners are hoping that being far offshore at depth makes their ruins "invisible." they are right, out of sight, out of mind.
i hope the fishermen are vocal and powerful enough to win against the power brokers in DF.



DaliDali - 11-4-2014 at 10:18 AM

NEVER EVER take the word of a radical extremist on either side of an issue.

wilderone - 11-4-2014 at 11:30 AM

Facts are facts.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2550065-local-government-fis...

DaliDali - 11-4-2014 at 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
Facts are facts.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2550065-local-government-fis...


Could be, but when it wants me to register to keep reading....see ya!!

Sand Wars

motoged - 11-4-2014 at 11:56 AM

Watch this:

https://www.knowledge.ca/program/sand-wars

woody with a view - 11-4-2014 at 12:06 PM

52 minutes?

can you summarize, Ged?

motoged - 11-4-2014 at 01:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
52 minutes?

can you summarize, Ged?


Okay, Woody.....since you haven't taken your Ritalin this morning....:lol:

The planet has a limited storage of resources. Unlike Walmart, when the shelf is empty, there is no resupply truck around the corner !

Sand is being dredged around the planet for various reasons (e. g. tourist beaches and mineral extraction). It is causing significant damage to the ecology around the planet. Some folks see the inherent dangers in this short-sighted and "greedy" practice.

Get a 6-pack of some nice Indian Pale Ale and watch the video with some friends.....it's worth an hour of your collective time.

A well-made documentary that tells us stuff that we likely were unaware of.

P.S. The T-shirts fit and are way cool :cool:

BajaBlanca - 11-4-2014 at 03:11 PM

WECOME to the club, straight.

bajaspuds - 11-4-2014 at 06:34 PM

Don Diego sounds like a bad idea in any language

this story link goes to the la paz news site:

http://www.bcsnoticias.mx/don-diego-un-proyecto-de-mineria-m...

merlin - 11-4-2014 at 07:11 PM

I'm going. At the very least, I'm hoping to learn something.

12 miles out is way too close!

dtbushpilot - 11-4-2014 at 07:36 PM

Looks like Oside threw a pork chop in the middle of a pack of poodles and split..:lol::lol::lol:

mtgoat666 - 11-4-2014 at 07:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali
NEVER EVER take the word of a radical extremist on either side of an issue.


"The question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be... The nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists" Martin Luther King Jr.

And radicals make the world more interesting...

Sweetwater - 11-4-2014 at 08:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by motoged
Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
52 minutes?

can you summarize, Ged?


Okay, Woody.....since you haven't taken your Ritalin this morning....:lol:

The planet has a limited storage of resources. Unlike Walmart, when the shelf is empty, there is no resupply truck around the corner !

Sand is being dredged around the planet for various reasons (e. g. tourist beaches and mineral extraction). It is causing significant damage to the ecology around the planet. Some folks see the inherent dangers in this short-sighted and "greedy" practice.

Get a 6-pack of some nice Indian Pale Ale and watch the video with some friends.....it's worth an hour of your collective time.

A well-made documentary that tells us stuff that we likely were unaware of.

P.S. The T-shirts fit and are way cool :cool:


OK, unlike many ..... not pointing fingers at anyone....I'm open to edjumaction....didn't think that it might be a significant issue so I need to watch the video and find out what the other vision is.....

Do you have a referral to the pro side of this?

I'm somewhat skeptical that the "resources" are as finite as stated, that's mostly a marketing tactic designed to inflate pricing of whatever commodity.....:?:

bajaspuds - 11-4-2014 at 08:39 PM

The Baja Sur State Congress has come out against this mining project, saying that it threatens BCS fisheries and other natural resources:

http://www.cbcs.gob.mx/index.php?option=com_content&view...

[Edited on 11-5-2014 by bajaspuds]

motoged - 11-4-2014 at 09:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwater
.....Do you have a referral to the pro side of this?

I'm somewhat skeptical that the "resources" are as finite as stated, that's mostly a marketing tactic designed to inflate pricing of whatever commodity.....:?:


SW,
No I am not aware of a pro-side link....let me know when you find one.

I came across that program when channel surfing....and found it interesting.

Thinking some resources may be finite is not necessarily an "economic angle"....

Bob H - 11-4-2014 at 10:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali
NEVER EVER take the word of a radical extremist on either side of an issue.


"The question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be... The nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists" Martin Luther King Jr.

And radicals make the world more interesting...



Looks like Joe Willie Namath on a good day.... jeje

DaliDali - 11-5-2014 at 06:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali
NEVER EVER take the word of a radical extremist on either side of an issue.


"The question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be... The nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists" Martin Luther King Jr.

And radicals make the world more interesting...



There is NO question what kind of radical extremist Goat is.
And it sure isn't "creative"

DaliDali - 11-5-2014 at 07:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaspuds
The Baja Sur State Congress has come out against this mining project, saying that it threatens BCS fisheries and other natural resources:

http://www.cbcs.gob.mx/index.php?option=com_content&view...

[Edited on 11-5-2014 by bajaspuds]


There is another element that is threatening the fisheries along that part of the coast.
And that is the constant, never ending netting of inshore fish species by pangueros.

I have been on the beach at San Juanico and have seen the MASSES of fish brought back daily by pangueros and their nets.

Barred sandbass, stacked to the gunnels, hundreds of halibut, corvina and corbina.
Women, standing side by side, at gutting tables right beside the pangas doing their knife tricks.

And this goes on daily.....
A large truck trailer is parked there near the take out of the boats and they stack the whole fish inside like cordwood.

That truck trailer pulls out and takes the north road out to MX 1, bound for Tijuana and the fish markets.
The weigh master there told me that truck pulls out about twice a week loaded with fish.
By the time that truck is full and ready to head north, those fish are 3-4 days old. Then more time before they reach TJ.
By the time the consumer buys his fish, it's nearly a week old.

Is it any wonder I never got a bite over 3 days while surf fishing there?

The Corvina fetches a higher price than the halibut, which are sorted by size.....bigger size gets the best price.
The individual panguero gets paid on quantity and size of his catch....the bigger the fish, the more he makes.

woody with a view - 11-5-2014 at 07:14 AM

there is little fish inside the bay at SJ, hasn't been forever. you need to head north a ways, but you prolly know that already.

DaliDali - 11-5-2014 at 07:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
there is little fish inside the bay at SJ, hasn't been forever. you need to head north a ways, but you prolly know that already.


Been there done that Woody. If your talking about the rock outcropping just above the first point.

I rode the quad up there from the beach palapas one morning.
And here was a guy in a pickup, dragging up his hand placed net that had been out all night.
He scored some HUGE CorBina right there.

I had hotdogs for supper!!

pappy - 11-6-2014 at 10:49 AM

this is most likely a very bad thing for the fisheries which should be the focus-not the surf. as for the surf, well, it takes care of itself one way or another.

joel - 11-9-2014 at 02:31 PM

One area of significant concern - and this is from the mining company's website - "the 'Don Diego' concession area stretches to the shoreline...."

Now they say they don't intend to mine anywhere near the shoreline, but I'm a little concerned about the awarding of a mining concession up the beach.

Here's the mining company's website:
http://ir.odysseymarine.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=8698...

rts551 - 11-9-2014 at 03:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaspuds
The Baja Sur State Congress has come out against this mining project, saying that it threatens BCS fisheries and other natural resources:

http://www.cbcs.gob.mx/index.php?option=com_content&view...

[Edited on 11-5-2014 by bajaspuds]


There is another element that is threatening the fisheries along that part of the coast.
And that is the constant, never ending netting of inshore fish species by pangueros.

I have been on the beach at San Juanico and have seen the MASSES of fish brought back daily by pangueros and their nets.

Barred sandbass, stacked to the gunnels, hundreds of halibut, corvina and corbina.
Women, standing side by side, at gutting tables right beside the pangas doing their knife tricks.

And this goes on daily.....
A large truck trailer is parked there near the take out of the boats and they stack the whole fish inside like cordwood.

That truck trailer pulls out and takes the north road out to MX 1, bound for Tijuana and the fish markets.
The weigh master there told me that truck pulls out about twice a week loaded with fish.
By the time that truck is full and ready to head north, those fish are 3-4 days old. Then more time before they reach TJ.
By the time the consumer buys his fish, it's nearly a week old.

Is it any wonder I never got a bite over 3 days while surf fishing there?

The Corvina fetches a higher price than the halibut, which are sorted by size.....bigger size gets the best price.
The individual panguero gets paid on quantity and size of his catch....the bigger the fish, the more he makes.


I guess you could take your concern to the COOP. You did provide an operative phrase.."panguero gets paid". I would address that while you lodge your complaint.

DaliDali - 11-9-2014 at 05:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaspuds
The Baja Sur State Congress has come out against this mining project, saying that it threatens BCS fisheries and other natural resources:

http://www.cbcs.gob.mx/index.php?option=com_content&view...

[Edited on 11-5-2014 by bajaspuds]


There is another element that is threatening the fisheries along that part of the coast.
And that is the constant, never ending netting of inshore fish species by pangueros.

I have been on the beach at San Juanico and have seen the MASSES of fish brought back daily by pangueros and their nets.

Barred sandbass, stacked to the gunnels, hundreds of halibut, corvina and corbina.
Women, standing side by side, at gutting tables right beside the pangas doing their knife tricks.

And this goes on daily.....
A large truck trailer is parked there near the take out of the boats and they stack the whole fish inside like cordwood.

That truck trailer pulls out and takes the north road out to MX 1, bound for Tijuana and the fish markets.
The weigh master there told me that truck pulls out about twice a week loaded with fish.
By the time that truck is full and ready to head north, those fish are 3-4 days old. Then more time before they reach TJ.
By the time the consumer buys his fish, it's nearly a week old.

Is it any wonder I never got a bite over 3 days while surf fishing there?

The Corvina fetches a higher price than the halibut, which are sorted by size.....bigger size gets the best price.
The individual panguero gets paid on quantity and size of his catch....the bigger the fish, the more he makes.


I guess you could take your concern to the COOP. You did provide an operative phrase.."panguero gets paid". I would address that while you lodge your complaint.


Far be it from me to tell some pangueros how to provide for their families.
It's none of my business. Period. If I have to eat hotdogs for supper is fine by me.
Snarkyness on your part duly noted.

The comparison was made to show there ARE other pitfalls to a declining fishery, other than a dredging operation 12 miles off shore.

Or there could be an endless supply of near shore market fish. I just don't know.

rts551 - 11-10-2014 at 07:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali
Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaspuds
The Baja Sur State Congress has come out against this mining project, saying that it threatens BCS fisheries and other natural resources:

http://www.cbcs.gob.mx/index.php?option=com_content&view...

[Edited on 11-5-2014 by bajaspuds]


There is another element that is threatening the fisheries along that part of the coast.
And that is the constant, never ending netting of inshore fish species by pangueros.

I have been on the beach at San Juanico and have seen the MASSES of fish brought back daily by pangueros and their nets.

Barred sandbass, stacked to the gunnels, hundreds of halibut, corvina and corbina.
Women, standing side by side, at gutting tables right beside the pangas doing their knife tricks.

And this goes on daily.....
A large truck trailer is parked there near the take out of the boats and they stack the whole fish inside like cordwood.

That truck trailer pulls out and takes the north road out to MX 1, bound for Tijuana and the fish markets.
The weigh master there told me that truck pulls out about twice a week loaded with fish.
By the time that truck is full and ready to head north, those fish are 3-4 days old. Then more time before they reach TJ.
By the time the consumer buys his fish, it's nearly a week old.

Is it any wonder I never got a bite over 3 days while surf fishing there?

The Corvina fetches a higher price than the halibut, which are sorted by size.....bigger size gets the best price.
The individual panguero gets paid on quantity and size of his catch....the bigger the fish, the more he makes.


I guess you could take your concern to the COOP. You did provide an operative phrase.."panguero gets paid". I would address that while you lodge your complaint.


Far be it from me to tell some pangueros how to provide for their families.
It's none of my business. Period. If I have to eat hotdogs for supper is fine by me.
Snarkyness on your part duly noted.

The comparison was made to show there ARE other pitfalls to a declining fishery, other than a dredging operation 12 miles off shore.

Or there could be an endless supply of near shore market fish. I just don't know.


not meant to be too snarky. actually I would thing the COOP would be an ally in the fight against dredging. would not the dredging disrupt the fishery in the area?

DaliDali - 11-10-2014 at 08:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali
Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Quote:
Originally posted by DaliDali
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaspuds
The Baja Sur State Congress has come out against this mining project, saying that it threatens BCS fisheries and other natural resources:

http://www.cbcs.gob.mx/index.php?option=com_content&view...

[Edited on 11-5-2014 by bajaspuds]


There is another element that is threatening the fisheries along that part of the coast.
And that is the constant, never ending netting of inshore fish species by pangueros.

I have been on the beach at San Juanico and have seen the MASSES of fish brought back daily by pangueros and their nets.

Barred sandbass, stacked to the gunnels, hundreds of halibut, corvina and corbina.
Women, standing side by side, at gutting tables right beside the pangas doing their knife tricks.

And this goes on daily.....
A large truck trailer is parked there near the take out of the boats and they stack the whole fish inside like cordwood.

That truck trailer pulls out and takes the north road out to MX 1, bound for Tijuana and the fish markets.
The weigh master there told me that truck pulls out about twice a week loaded with fish.
By the time that truck is full and ready to head north, those fish are 3-4 days old. Then more time before they reach TJ.
By the time the consumer buys his fish, it's nearly a week old.

Is it any wonder I never got a bite over 3 days while surf fishing there?

The Corvina fetches a higher price than the halibut, which are sorted by size.....bigger size gets the best price.
The individual panguero gets paid on quantity and size of his catch....the bigger the fish, the more he makes.


I guess you could take your concern to the COOP. You did provide an operative phrase.."panguero gets paid". I would address that while you lodge your complaint.


Far be it from me to tell some pangueros how to provide for their families.
It's none of my business. Period. If I have to eat hotdogs for supper is fine by me.
Snarkyness on your part duly noted.

The comparison was made to show there ARE other pitfalls to a declining fishery, other than a dredging operation 12 miles off shore.

Or there could be an endless supply of near shore market fish. I just don't know.


not meant to be too snarky. actually I would thing the COOP would be an ally in the fight against dredging. would not the dredging disrupt the fishery in the area?


I just don't know enough about that dredging operation to make the call on if it would be harmful to the fisheries or not.
I suppose it would somehow depend on what the bottom of the sea composition is at the site planned.

If it's mostly sand and mud, I have my doubts.
Mother Nature takes care of shifting sand deposits by way of the tidal flows and currents.
One year the sand is piled high on beaches and the next it's bare.
Storms move sand, currents move sand and tides move sand.

On the other hand, if that sea bed is full of vegetative life, where various sea creatures feed, hide and reproduce, that could be a cause of concern to dredge it all up.

If I were a commercial fisherman in that area, I would certainly be concerned.

In my view, the pangeros themselves, should be more concerned about the non stop netting of inshore species from one particular area, rather than some shifting sands.
From what I have seen in person, it appears there are no limits to the amount of their catch and no size limits. Maybe they do stop the netting and trapping during certain times of the year. I just don't know this.

But then again, that net/trap fishing in the area has gone on for a long time. And they still bring in sizable quantities daily. Maybe the sea in that area is immune to depletion?

I don't keep or want to keep the catch rates. But if I were a betting person, I would bet that catch rate has dwindled year after year.

I was there for a few days and I surf fished all those days, more than once a day.
I never got a bite and those same pangueros told me the best spots.
It's a good thing I had hot dogs as backup.

StraighouttaOside - 11-10-2014 at 02:19 PM

Thanks everyone for the response and concern. I feel that phosphate mining can't be great for the area but as said above Baja takes care of herself. I wish that I could have attended the meeting but couldn't due to work. Has anyone heard anything more about this?

mtgoat666 - 11-10-2014 at 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by woody with a view
there is little fish inside the bay at SJ, hasn't been forever. you need to head north a ways, but you prolly know that already.


everybody knows charlie don't surf