BajaNomad - Generator question

Solar panels are very cheap, and with the sun we have you might want to consider adding about another 800-1000 watts of panels to augment your system, considering the number of batteries you have. I am assuming that you have 1350 watts of panels not 1350 KW.

[Edited on 3-12-2015 by monoloco]

Yes 1350w of panels. I could do this but doesn't matter how many panels you have if it is cloudy which is what I'm trying to solve. On sunny days my solar is fine (except no air conditioning or washer/dryer).

pacside - 3-12-2015 at 01:10 PM

Thanks monoloco for your feedback. Are the diesel generators the continuous operating ones mentioned by bigwoo?

Also thanks bigwoo.

55steve - 3-12-2015 at 01:21 PM

For part time use I would consider a Honda EU7000is. They are a bit pricey but are super quiet & dependable. I power air conditioning in the summer BoLA heat 24/7 with an EU3000is

http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu7000is

pacside - 3-12-2015 at 01:23 PM

Look into getting a diesel generator, they are much more reliable, more economical, and have a much longer service life. The most important thing is to match the generator with your anticipated loads, both for economy and efficiency. Diesel generators can have their life shortened by not having enough load put on them. (wet stacking) I have used gas, propane, and diesel generators at our off-grid home just over the hill from you, and diesel is by far the best option for off-grid,. Most of the Kohlers I've seen installed here are propane, and not very economical due to the high price of propane. I use a 6 KW diesel generator that burns about a liter per hour under load. I would think that a 6-8 kw generator would be more than enough for any energy efficient off grid house.Your Outback system will easily interface with a generator. Here's a link with some typical diesel setups: http://www.hardydiesel.com A good diesel generator can last for tens of thousands of hours.
As for AC units, look into mini-split types with inverter technology. They are much more efficient and do not have a high draw on startup.

So glad I asked these questions. I think based on my needs the standby kohler's may not be the solution. I didn't realize they were for back up occasional hours of use. In my case, I may need to use the generator for several hours at a time for multiple days in a row. Not all the time but high impact times. Are they quiet enough to have near your home? Looking at the one you linked to. Thanks again for your feedback.

monoloco - 3-12-2015 at 01:49 PM

The quietest diesel generators have sound attenuating enclosures that get them dow to about 65db. I have a 30 year old air cooled Onan that is very loud, so I built a generator shed with insulated doors and baffled vents, that get it down to an acceptable level. I believe that most of the units on the Hardy site are rated for prime power (constant use). The nicest thing about diesel, is that you will never have to worry about gunked up carburetors or other fuel issues if the generator sits without use for a period of time. Here's a link to another good site for info: http://advanced-power-systems.com

[Edited on 3-12-2015 by monoloco]

larryC - 3-12-2015 at 03:02 PM

I use a Kubota 6500 diesel and it is very reliable and economical. Interfaces with the Outback equipment very easily. Just run the gen AC output to the inverters AC input, start the generator and the inverter will do the rest automatically. You'll need to set the generator parameters in the mate so the inverter doesn't try to draw too much from the generator. Very easy to do with Outback stuff.

Bob and Susan - 3-12-2015 at 06:36 PM

geezz....generators///

think NOISE..the manufacturers lie...you need to listen to one work

think FUEL use...$$$ per night...propane is cleaner but way more expensive...diesel stinks...unless the wind blows the other way
when its hot its easy to run the generator 18 hours...do the math at 4 bucks an hour $$$

think size...you need a rating double what you need to run it all
...but don't get too big...bigger is not better all the time

think REPAIR parts...can you get them here in Baja

mr bill once posted something that really made "cents"
he said if you do use a portable generator... no matter what size the unit generates you are limited to the size of the plug amperage and fuse...so a 15a plug limits you to about 1500w of power...even if the unit is a 7500watter

there are 2 generators...a 3600rpm and a 1800rpm
if you drive your car at 50mpg you are doing 1800rpm imagine if you were driving and doing 3600rpm...fast!!!
3600rpm units wear out twice as fast or faster

think about the GENERATOR part...not just the engine...how long will it last...it has to have 60hz and put out 110v to 120v all the time...under load...the more load...voltage drops...the lower the voltage the hotter the electric appliance gets...too low and it fries stuff

if you want 220v be sure to buy a 2 wire 220v generator...most ac units use 2 wires...mine is a one wire 220v...mistake

last ...think NOISE!!!...I have neighbors 1/2 mile away and I hear their generator...horrible neighbors

weebray - 3-12-2015 at 06:48 PM

I once built a 40hp vw engine for a guy to power a generator for his remote cabin in the Sierra. He dug about a 10' deep pit and put it in the bottom. He installed a vertical plywood baffle to divide the pit in two. Intake/cooling air came down one side of the baffle and exhause/heat exited the other side. The engine sipped fuel and could not be heard about 20 - 30 steps away. He used it daily and, since it ran at a constant speed, lasted for years.

Bob and Susan - 3-13-2015 at 06:08 AM

that probably only ran a generator to charge batteries...
you could never keep the voltage correct to power modern equipment
especially if you put a load on the vw engine

and a vw engine never got good gas mileage it just seemed like it when the big American gas hogs got 8 miles per gallon

as for in the ground...here on the beach it would collect water as soon as it rained and be under water all the time

Mula - 3-13-2015 at 08:04 AM

And guests and renters (short termers, non owners) will always use all power available and then more.

Off the grid is impossible for vacationers to understand or care about.

They paid the money and they want it all.

larryC - 3-13-2015 at 08:11 AM

I agree with Bob on this one. Having a generator for primary power does not make any sense. I use mine to charge batteries and if necessary to run an AC unit at night. Other than that my solar system handles everything else, the welder, my metal lathe, table saw, and everything in the house including micro wave and washer and gas dryer. With solar panels so cheap it doesn't make sense to depend on a generator that uses fuel and needs repairs eventually.

pacside - 3-13-2015 at 09:11 AM

Really appreciate everyone's replies. You all get it; noise, short term vacationers 'needs', cost, etc.

95% of the time my current setup is sufficient but the 5% of the time when it isn't is unsustainable. So I need to fix it. I've been told various things like don't increase solar for the 5% but just get a generator. But this solution doesn't seem to be so easy and clearcut. I wanted to stay away from increasing solar capacity as I was put off when 4 of my 8 solar panels flew off my roof during hurricane Odile and when they don't work during cloudy days and it still isn't sufficient for when vacationers who don't conserve energy.

Also didn't think I could increase panel capacity given my battery bank. Maybe folks can weigh in here.

Current setup is 8 panels at 135w/ea which is only 1080watts of panels. Battery pack consists of 16 Trojan 390Ah batteries with Outback 3000 inverter, 48v. Wondering if I add new panels if I have to add batteries.

Also, if anyone knows someone in the area I can hire to help me on this that would be much appreciated.

pacside

[Edited on 3-13-2015 by pacside]

[Edited on 3-13-2015 by pacside]

Russ - 3-13-2015 at 09:34 AM

I think for 5% of the time you could get by just fine with a Honda 3000i.
You might have to only use one AC unit but it would keep your batteries charged if you run it thru your inverter. Anyway that is what I have and it works well. With your setup you should still get enough solar in to charge on a mostly cloudy day if you conserve your usage. I set my input amps at 15 and can run on eco mode.

Martyman - 3-13-2015 at 09:49 AM

My neighbors run their Genny all the time. Drives me batty. Get a quiet one if you get one and don't run it all the time.

pacside - 3-13-2015 at 09:50 AM

Thanks Russ. Problem is most guests do not 'conserve usage'...therein lies the problem. I do know those honda 3000 gens are popular.

Not technical so I don't understand the amps sentence.

pacside

pacside - 3-13-2015 at 09:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Martyman

My neighbors run their Genny all the time. Drives me batty. Get a quiet one if you get one and don't run it all the time.

Agree, that would drive me nuts and doesn't make for nice neighbors. Fortunately, not many neighbors and the ocean waves would drown out the sound from the casa. Will get a quiet one or at least as quiet as is possible.

monoloco - 3-13-2015 at 10:03 AM

Is sounds to me like your solar capacity is much too small for your battery capacity. I have half the battery capacity as you have but have about 1800 watts of solar, which will get our system to float on all but the most overcast days.

Russ - 3-13-2015 at 10:50 AM

The amp thing is where you customize you input to the inverter from the generator. I lower my input so the generator can run on the eco mode saving a lot of gas. Of course the inverter has to have charging capability. I don't know about the OutBack. It should have an external input feature though. Doing it this way the inverter handles the sudden (over the 15 amps) load demands.

Thanks Russ. Problem is most guests do not 'conserve usage'...therein lies the problem. I do know those honda 3000 gens are popular.

Not technical so I don't understand the amps sentence.

pacside

[Edited on 3-13-2015 by Russ]

Bob and Susan - 3-13-2015 at 11:35 AM

the outback 48v charger is bigger than you'll ever need...

the mate can reduce the amount of current the charger uses...you really don't need it all

a split ac unit is way better than the wall units but is more $$$
the splits are quieter too
the wall units are NOISY!!! I have wall units

the largest 115v ac unit is one ton =12000 btu
I need 2 ac units in each 800 sq foot casita to cool it in the summer

each unit uses 11amps

I think a 3000w generator is too small
you will overload it and repairing it all the time

larryC - 3-14-2015 at 10:15 AM

Really appreciate everyone's replies. You all get it; noise, short term vacationers 'needs', cost, etc.

95% of the time my current setup is sufficient but the 5% of the time when it isn't is unsustainable. So I need to fix it. I've been told various things like don't increase solar for the 5% but just get a generator. But this solution doesn't seem to be so easy and clearcut. I wanted to stay away from increasing solar capacity as I was put off when 4 of my 8 solar panels flew off my roof during hurricane Odile and when they don't work during cloudy days and it still isn't sufficient for when vacationers who don't conserve energy.

Also didn't think I could increase panel capacity given my battery bank. Maybe folks can weigh in here.

Current setup is 8 panels at 135w/ea which is only 1080watts of panels. Battery pack consists of 16 Trojan 390Ah batteries with Outback 3000 inverter, 48v. Wondering if I add new panels if I have to add batteries.

Also, if anyone knows someone in the area I can hire to help me on this that would be much appreciated.

pacside

Pacside
As Mono said in an earlier post you are actually under paneled for the size of your battery bank. Trojan recommends that you charge their batteries at between 10 and 13% of their rated capacity. Your capacity is 780 amp hours and with the type of tall batteries you have you should probably strive to charge it as close to the 13% as possible so you should have panels capable of putting out 101 amps at 48v. to get that many amps you would need at least 2 of the FM60 charge controllers. I am guessing that with your current setup that your panels are putting out somewhere near 17 amps. Not near enough to fully charge your bank. One thing you could do is to put a marine battery switch between the 2 banks and charge one bank at a time, but you would still need more panels. I would also switch to AGM batteries which will never need water and which will be happy being charged with 5% of their capacity which would cut your panels expenses in half.
Good luck with your system, Outback is good stuff.
Larry

pacside - 3-19-2015 at 11:01 AM

Something like this would give many years of reliable service:
http://www.hardydiesel.com/lister-petter-generators/lister-7...

I agree with you (and others) to add 800-1000kw of panels to my 16 batteries bank given I only have only about 1050kw of panels.

Regarding the generator you refer to above, does it need a cover or can it sit on it's own? Just trying to figure out what is needed to set this up properly. I'm still wondering if I need such a generator given it will only be needed for cloudy days or when guests drain the batteries and hot months of summer when an air conditioner is desirable.

Still looking for someone down there who could advise me and help handle installing solar panels and generator. Do you know of anyone?

Thanks,
pacside

monoloco - 3-19-2015 at 03:53 PM

Something like this would give many years of reliable service:
http://www.hardydiesel.com/lister-petter-generators/lister-7...

It is in a weatherproof enclosure, but, if you live anywhere near the beach, you will have less problems and a longer service life with it in a building. Salt is the enemy of electronics.

Alm - 3-19-2015 at 07:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Russ

I think for 5% of the time you could get by just fine with a Honda 3000i.

Yes.

Quote: Originally posted by Russ

With your setup you should still get enough solar in to charge on a mostly cloudy day if you conserve your usage.

Yes.

When somebody says that his solar "doesn't charge" on cloudy day, or that he is "losing power" - whatever it means - to me this simply doesn't make sense. Solar harvest on a cloudy day can be 3-4 times less than on a perfectly sunny day, but if system is properly balanced, solar should be able to handle all your loads other than AC. If solar can't bring the batts to Absorb stage on some day (80% charge, to put it simply), what's the big deal? This is Baja, tomorrow there will be sun and solar will bring it up to 100%.

Battery bank should be of the "right" size to let you hang on for a few cloudy days. Some people are getting 4 pairs of L16 when they only live there in winter, no AC, no jacuzzi, and all they want is to watch sat TV and burn a few lights. This is 4 times more battery than they need. Self-discharge current is 4 times higher than it would've been if they bought only 1 pair of L16. Then they get a monstrous inverter-charger with high stand-by current guzzling the charge like there is no tomorrow, and their batts are in a bad shape after jsut a year. And then the guy is scratching his head, wandering - what the heck, I've got 900W solar, tons of batts, and yet have to run a generator every night

)

Alm - 3-19-2015 at 07:34 PM

Regarding the generator you refer to above, does it need a cover or can it sit on it's own?

Do you realize how loud diesel generator is? No offense, but unless your hearing is already badly damaged, you will appreciate a good cover. Your neighbors will probably appreciate it too. Cement blocks and labor will cost few hundred bucks total, this is a no-brainer.

Paulclark - 3-19-2015 at 10:57 PM

Diesel---I have 3.5 kw of solar and AC from it during the daytime in my office which is 350 sq. ft.--nice and cool and no strain on the batteries.

Night and high usage times I use a diesel generator --- 12 KW, Mitsubishi generator which just passed 50,000 hours and was sadly sent down the road last week after 19 years.

It is being replaced with a 10 Kw Kubota from www.generatorsales.com which is costing $5,600.00 plus freight etc., for an additional $1,600 it can be purchased in a sound box, however we have a generator room which is 1/2 in the ground and 2 mufflers to minimize the sound so neighbours 100 meters away can barely hear it. Further sound suppression can be obtained by putting a muffler (suppressor on the intake). Additionally we set the generator on rubber mounts.

Cheers---diesel plus solar

Bob and Susan - 3-20-2015 at 06:44 AM

dont put a muffler on the intake...a diesel needs AIR...lots of AIR

that's why they put "turbos" on them now days

the sound box I have doesn't really work that well...a sound room would be better...

I put my generator on 4x4's...that did work too...but I only did it to be able to move later

whatever you do DONT put a fuel tank under the engine...makes it really hard to change the oil...

monoloco - 3-20-2015 at 07:28 AM

dont put a muffler on the intake...a diesel needs AIR...lots of AIR

that's why they put "turbos" on them now days

the sound box I have doesn't really work that well...a sound room would be better...

I put my generator on 4x4's...that did work too...but I only did it to be able to move later

whatever you do DONT put a fuel tank under the engine...makes it really hard to change the oil...

I use a pump to change my oil. Easy and clean.

pacside - 3-20-2015 at 12:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 55steve

For part time use I would consider a Honda EU7000is. They are a bit pricey but are super quiet & dependable. I power air conditioning in the summer BoLA heat 24/7 with an EU3000is

http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu7000is

Thanks for everyones replies. Can someone please explain to me why one of these Honda portable generators (7000is or 3000is) or the standby Kohler 20kw generator wouldn't suffice to power my air conditioner during summer months.

Current setup:
1035 kw solar panels
16 Trojan L16E 6v Batteries
Outback 3000 Inverter
No generator

I will increase panels as batteries can handle more but it still won't be enough for air conditioner and other peak usage times (i.e. guests).

I understand the benefit of the continous running diesel generators but I'm getting concerned about the noise, ease of use, maintenance as I'm a remote owner.

Thanks,
pacside

willardguy - 3-20-2015 at 12:39 PM

are looking to AC the whole house, or just one room at night? if its the latter, the honda eu2000 will nicely power a window unit, in eco mode!~

monoloco - 3-20-2015 at 01:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 55steve

Those generators will power your home, you will just spend more in fuel and maintenance, and they will have a much shorter lifespan. A good diesel generator with proper service will run for 50,000 hours, you will be lucky to get a couple of thousand out of a portable gas generator. Check the db ratings of generators, there are enclosed diesel models below 65db, and if you put them in a properly designed shed, which you will also need for a gas or propane generator, you will barely hear it running.

[Edited on 3-20-2015 by monoloco]

BigWooo - 3-20-2015 at 01:19 PM

I think 20kw would be overkill. I have a 14kw Genarac propane generator, which is similar to the Kohler. I went with the 14 in order to run larger tools with power leftover to run the house and charge batteries. On a cloudy day I can charge the batteries while I'm welding with a fridge and freezer going at the same time with plenty of power to spare.

The BIG downside to the Kohler and Generac is fuel use and noise. I have a pretty large solar power system so I rarely run the generator and my fuel costs are about 500 pesos a month. . That's not that much, but for as little as I use it, that seems excessive.

The Kohler and Generac are both pretty loud. I have mine in an insulated housing, inside sound walls, sitting on gravel to absorb more sound, and I can still hear it 100 yards away. I never run it in the morning or evening so I don't bug my neighbors.

My generator runs good and is very dependable, but due to fuel consumption and noise, I'd never buy it again. I think you would be better off staying away from propane generators.

ncampion - 3-20-2015 at 01:31 PM

One of the big advantages of propane generators is that the fuel is stable. For generators that don't run often propane is not a bad choice over gas or diesel. Both gas and diesel fuel will go bad over time where as propane can sit there indefinitely without going bad. If you're going to use the generator often, the fuel problem is not usually an issue and then diesel would be the best choice.

monoloco - 3-20-2015 at 01:36 PM

Current setup:
1035 kw solar panels
16 Trojan L16E 6v Batteries
Outback 3000 Inverter
No generator

I will increase panels as batteries can handle more

It's not so much that they will handle more, it's that they REQUIRE a higher charging rate than you can give them with that array. Otherwise you will greatly reduce their lifespan.

Alm - 3-21-2015 at 11:26 PM

Can someone please explain to me why one of these Honda portable generators (7000is or 3000is) or the standby Kohler 20kw generator wouldn't suffice to power my air conditioner during summer months.

Who told you it wouldn't? 3KW genny will run a window-size or RV-size AC easily. 7kW genny will run 3 of them, if you start one and then another, not all 3 at once.

Current setup:
1035 kw solar panels
16 Trojan L16E 6v Batteries
Outback 3000 Inverter
No generator

I will increase panels as batteries can handle more but it still won't be enough for air conditioner and other peak usage times (i.e. guests).

I don't understand about batteries that "can handle more". In terms of maximum charging current that battery can take, considering "recommended" 1/3C charging current, your 3,000 AH bank of L16 can take about 100A total. This is roughly 1,500-1,800W solar. You can try and pump more than 100A into these batts, but this would be raping them.

Rule of thumb is 1W of solar per 1 AH @12V bank, so your solar is indeed undersized for your battery bank - or your bank is way too big. Probably - both, i.e. too many batts and too little solar.

In terms of AC needs, you need to increase panels at least 2 times, to be able to run a small AC directly from solar. In the night, however, you will have to run AC from batteries, and your 3,000 AH bank is barely enough to run small AC for 9-10 hours.

The bottom line is - if you need AC, run a grid power to your house or get a generator. And, if you get a generator, plan for some enclosure because as others noted, manufacturers lie and there is no such thing as "quiet generator". Even the quietest 2KW-3KW Honda you will hear from 100 meters away if somebody will place it out in the open. The owner might not hear it 'cause his windows are on the other side (this is why they put it where they put it), but you will, if you windows are towards it. And vice versa - you won't hear your genny but your neighbors will. And, if you get a diesel, plan not only for enclosure, but for distance from your house and your neigbor's and for wind, because, as others noted, diesel fumes stink.

Inverter-chargers like yours, btw, have very high idle draw. Together with high self-discharge current (caused by keeping too many batteries), it sucks the charge out of the bank faster than solar can put it in there on a cloudy day.

[Edited on 3-22-2015 by Alm]

monoloco - 3-22-2015 at 07:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ncampion

One of the big advantages of propane generators is that the fuel is stable. For generators that don't run often propane is not a bad choice over gas or diesel. Both gas and diesel fuel will go bad over time where as propane can sit there indefinitely without going bad. If you're going to use the generator often, the fuel problem is not usually an issue and then diesel would be the best choice.

Diesel fuel is much more stabile than gasoline, it can get algae growth but unless it sits for a very long time and gets condensation in the fuel, it's unlikely. My diesel generator was in storage for 6 years and fired right up on the fuel that was in the tank. I also have an Onan propane generator and have had nothing but problems with the fuel system on it, not to mention the fact that it costs over twice as much to run than the diesel, even though it is only 3.6kw vs. 6kw for the diesel. If you decide to use a propane generator, be prepared for some very high fuel costs.

Bob and Susan - 3-22-2015 at 01:15 PM

I have a little portable 5500 watt generator

the reality with portables is you're limited to the plug on wht you can do...load wise

each double receptacle can only handle 15amps or 1650w...then it blows

the BIG plug is 20amps or 2200w then that blows

overloading a generator is common here in Baja...we expect them to work as advertised...they don't

you should never run more than 60% of the total volume of power thru the generator or it will fail early

also if you over load a generator the voltage drops the amps rise and you burn electrical motors and circuit boards

remember the 2 types of generators...the 3600rpm units and the 1800rpm units...the second uses a lot less fuel for the same power

gene.jpg - 44kB

Alm - 3-22-2015 at 05:18 PM

Long-term fuel storage isn't much of an issue, considering their regular (=annual) and very sporadic use of 5% of total time. They only need the genny for AC. All other loads are taken care of by solar - it does need some tune-up, I would increase the panels up to 1,500-2,000 and get rid of one pair of L16, donate or sell to somebody. But solar is a separate topic.

If (IF) their AC is OK with 3KW genny, this is 6-8 gallons a day even if you run it full power and non-stop. So every other day they will make a trip to the gas station and fill a few 5-gal cans, no big deal. And, if one or two cans are left by the end of their stay, they will put it in the tank of their car or take it with them when going North. They need to decide on the AC size before considering a genny type and size.

Bob and Susan - 3-23-2015 at 06:20 AM

the only problem is this use of a portable generator
is ONLY a temporary fix

and gas really smells...I have to use paint thinner to "cut" the smell...seems like nothing else takes the smell away
I can NEVER pour it in without spilling...(old man)

I agree those 3000w Hondas are great...so quiet...
but after one summer in Baja it'll be worn out

monoloco - 3-23-2015 at 07:07 AM

the only problem is this use of a portable generator
is ONLY a temporary fix

and gas really smells...I have to use paint thinner to "cut" the smell...seems like nothing else takes the smell away
I can NEVER pour it in without spilling...(old man)

I agree those 3000w Hondas are great...so quiet...
but after one summer in Baja it'll be worn out

Yep, one diesel generator will outlast 6+ Hondas.

Alm - 3-23-2015 at 10:24 AM

Honda 3000 is not quiet if used without enclosure. On a quiet evening you can hear it 300ft away. It's "quiet" compared to diesel though.

BS

BajaRob - 3-23-2015 at 10:41 AM

I gotta call BS on a Honda 3000 EU lasting one summer in Baja. I have been running one for 8 years and it is still running strong. I also have a Honda 7000i and a Yamaha 6500 diesel which have ee running great for 12 years. Lets keep it real here.

monoloco - 3-23-2015 at 12:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaRob

I gotta call BS on a Honda 3000 EU lasting one summer in Baja. I have been running one for 8 years and it is still running strong. I also have a Honda 7000i and a Yamaha 6500 diesel which have ee running great for 12 years. Lets keep it real here.

It just depends on how much you run it. A Honda 3000 is good for about 1500-2000 hours, a good diesel generator can run 30-40,000 hours.

Alm - 3-23-2015 at 12:32 PM

It just depends on how much you run it

... and the OP will run it 5% of time only. They have 1,000W solar and don't live there all the time. A small portable should last them several years.

Yes, gas stinks - when you spill it. Diesel fuel stinks when you burn it. They all stink.

monoloco - 3-23-2015 at 01:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alm

It just depends on how much you run it

5%=438 hours a year. Expect about 3 years of use.

Timinator - 3-24-2015 at 04:19 AM

Buy a few more panels, and a Honda or Yamaha generator. A 3K will work, a bigger one would be better. I run a 110v air conditioner with a Yamaha 2K generator on it's economy setting. So, unless you're running several AC's units, a 3K Generator should keep you cool and top off the batteries.

The diesel's are better overall, especially if you're looking for the best, long term fix. You pay for it though. Personally, I went with two 2K Yamaha generators that I can tie together when I need it. If one happens to fail (which hasn't happened in 2.5 years), I still have 2K worth of power with the second generator. I use these at an off grid hunting cabin in Ohio.

Russ - 3-24-2015 at 09:29 AM

Remember to keep the fuel away from the genset. Just a safety thought. I use 3 - 15 gal containers on a roll around cart and siphon into the generator. I roll the cart to a safe location. Pretty easy and usually no mess and fewer trips to town. The spark arrestor on the Honda needs to be cleaned seasonally. If it's plugged up the generator will run lousy. When I change oil for the summer season I put in a 40 weight oil. Don't know if that is good or bad but it's still running.

monoloco - 3-24-2015 at 01:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Timinator

Buy a few more panels, and a Honda or Yamaha generator. A 3K will work, a bigger one would be better. I run a 110v air conditioner with a Yamaha 2K generator on it's economy setting. So, unless you're running several AC's units, a 3K Generator should keep you cool and top off the batteries.

The diesel's are better overall, especially if you're looking for the best, long term fix. You pay for it though. Personally, I went with two 2K Yamaha generators that I can tie together when I need it. If one happens to fail (which hasn't happened in 2.5 years), I still have 2K worth of power with the second generator. I use these at an off grid hunting cabin in Ohio.

A Honda EU3000 costs $2500 and will last about 1500 hours, a good 6kw diesel generator will cost about $8000 but will last 25,000+ hours. You would spend over $40,000 buying Hondas to get 25,000 hours of service.

Tacodawgtim - 3-24-2015 at 01:31 PM

I have a solar house in San Felipe.. Added on this year with the addition of two split unit acs... I run a Honda 6500 eu... It will put out 220. Plus I have it set up with a remote start
Would I use it to live year round no. But if I am here and it gets hot it works. Pretty simple. But might not work for you.. I agree solar just does not work if cloudy... Lots of options and opinions

vandenberg - 3-24-2015 at 02:01 PM

I am in the process installing a 11 KW Generac stand by generator with a 200 amp smart switch.
Total cost will be around $5K,
$3000 for the unit including battery
$800 import and shipping from San Diego
$485 for 500 liter propane tank
Rest for installation and materials.
Maybe little steep, but great for peace of mind at 79.
Getting too old lugging generators around.

msteve1014 - 3-24-2015 at 02:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by vandenberg

I am in the process installing a 11 KW Generac stand by generator with a 200 amp smart switch.
Total cost will be around $5K,
$3000 for the unit including battery
$800 import and shipping from San Diego
$485 for 500 liter propane tank
Rest for installation and materials.
Maybe little steep, but great for peace of mind at 79.
Getting too old lugging generators around.

Are you on CFE power there? Is it that unreliable? We have outages in La Bocana all the time, but I would have thought it was better where you are.

Bob and Susan - 3-24-2015 at 03:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by vandenberg

maybe later you could tell what it really costs to run the propane...like per hour under load...
and if you have problems with the truck arriving to deliver the propane
try to keep the propane tank dry...the steel really rots down here...I already got rid of one your size because it rotted in 5 years and it was new

vandenberg - 3-24-2015 at 05:01 PM

We're on the grid here in Nopolo. Reliable most of the time. No problem getting propane.
Installed the unit mainly to keep appliances going during storms, which is usually the time power goes off.
We have 31/2 fridges and an upright freezer and hate to loose the stuff in there. Also cistern pump and of course our splits. Can at least keep one running during an outage.
Like I stated, more for peace of mind than anything.
With any luck don't need it in next few years.

Bob, also have a 500 ltr propane tank for stoves and water heaters. It is over 20 years old and still looks like new. So does my neighbors btw.

[Edited on 3-26-2015 by vandenberg]

pacside - 7-8-2015 at 03:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alm

Long-term fuel storage isn't much of an issue, considering their regular (=annual) and very sporadic use of 5% of total time. They only need the genny for AC. All other loads are taken care of by solar - it does need some tune-up, I would increase the panels up to 1,500-2,000 and get rid of one pair of L16, donate or sell to somebody. But solar is a separate topic.

If (IF) their AC is OK with 3KW genny, this is 6-8 gallons a day even if you run it full power and non-stop. So every other day they will make a trip to the gas station and fill a few 5-gal cans, no big deal. And, if one or two cans are left by the end of their stay, they will put it in the tank of their car or take it with them when going North. They need to decide on the AC size before considering a genny type and size.

My current setup:

8 x 135w panels for total of 1080w

Qty 16 Trojan L16E-AC batteries, 6 volt on a 48v system, 20 Hr Ah: 370

Xantrex 3000 Outback inverter
********************************************************

GENERATOR

Narrowed down the choice to either a Honda EU2000i (in parallel), EU3000i, or EU7000i or a continuous running, liquid cooled, 1800 rpm diesel generator.

What generator size and type is best to run following air conditioning unit(s) for 5-6 weeks in the summer and occasionally in winter as back up.

1 split AC 18000btu (good)
2 split AC 12000btu (better)
All 3 units (best

I like Honda eu series because they are quiet, affordable and could possibly tied me over until I hook up to the grid, but what size?

I like diesel because they can run for long periods (ex 24/7 if needed for a few weeks) and no worry about running it too long or with heavy load but a negative is they are expensive and running with light loads can damage them. Plus I may be grid tied soon so long term isn't as important.

I can get 2 Honda EU2000i's (in parallel) for $2000 ($999/ea) or a Honda EU7000i for $3999 (free shipping/no tax) but would have to ship or drive it down. Which is best for my application?

Can anyone recommend the least expensive continous running, liquid cooled, 1800 rpm diesel generator?

SOLAR PANELS
Panels will be increased to 2000w or 2300kw from 1.08kw. What is more economical; adding 9 x 135w = 1215w (1215+1080=2300w) or replacing existing panels with all new higher watt panels?

Alm can you explan why you suggest going up to 2000w and getting rid of a pair of the L16 batteries? Wouldn't it make sense to increase panels to what my existing batteries can handle instead of getting rid of a pair? I need all the solar I can get.

edit: the AC units are 220v whereas the honda eu2000i gen is 110v. Possible to pair to get 220v?

Thans everyone for your replies.

pacside

[Edited on 7-9-2015 by pacside]

monoloco - 7-9-2015 at 07:42 PM

If you mix panels of differing voltage, you will need to use a separate charge controller.

wessongroup - 7-9-2015 at 07:55 PM

As always ... thanks for all the good info ...

Anyone have any news on the POWERWALL by Telsa

Haven't heard a thing and just googled with nothing new

pacside - 7-9-2015 at 11:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soulpatch

Regarding the panels you will want to find out the voltage parameters for your charge controller and size your strings accordingly.... panel prices are dropping right now.... our supplier just dropped prices 15% and is expecting to reduce even more shortly.... it appears China is again trying to dump product.

So, you may be better off getting new panels if yours have some years on them and they are degrading... panels are getting better and better.

As far as generators, remember standby is just that..... if you are running hours on end daily for a sustained period of time pony up for a prime generator. They are designed for continuous use.

Use the university of google to price a few.

On edit look at 250 or larger panels. There are lots of sales going on and, if you use a Mexican manufacturer rather than paying the import tax you'll do alright. ERDM is a company out of Veracruz and Solartec is out of Irapuato.... I just priced 250W Polycrystalline modules at $170USD.

Make sure you have ventilation around those things.... which I am certain you know.... heat kills production.
[Edited on 7-10-2015 by soulpatch]

Wow $170 for a 250w solar panel is .68 cents per watt. In my cursory look today the lowest price I found was .95 cents per watt. What do you mean by ventilation? My panels are at a 45 degree angle facing sun on roof but I want my new ones to be flush mounted to the roof as I lost 4 panels in hurricane Odile. Where do you recommend buying panels; U.S. or MX?

A sales rep from Wholesale Solar is assisting me on how much watts my batteries can handle and has this question:

""I need to know what the amp hour capacity of your battery bank as a whole is. You stated that you have 6V 370aH hour batteries and that you have 16 of them. We were also able to determine that you have 8 of them wired in series to make 48V. How many parallel connections do you have?

One last question… what charge controller are you using with the eight panels you currently have?"

I have an email out to the person who installed them.

pacside - 7-9-2015 at 11:33 PM

If you mix panels of differing voltage, you will need to use a separate charge controller.

You know your stuff monoloco. That is exactly what the Wholesale Solar person said.

laventana - 7-10-2015 at 02:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup

As always ... thanks for all the good info ...

Anyone have any news on the POWERWALL by Telsa

Haven't heard a thing and just googled with nothing new

there is also samsung and a real new one that will kick teslas behind a new technology out of Washington.

samsung
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150610006482/en/Sams...

new one
http://www.uetechnologies.com/

pacside - 7-10-2015 at 10:50 AM

Good info soulpatch.

I see EDRM offers pricing and online ordering. I will check how much to ship to Todos Santos.

Will call Mayra at Solartec. I assume they sell direct to consumer but one has to call in to get prices and order?

What is difference between Polycrystalline and Monocristalino solar panels and why buy one over the other?

I guessed on the 45˚ panel angle. I'm sure it is closer to 15˚. Really like the adjustable mount option to flatten them when when needed if hurricane coming. Don't want any more panels flying off roof during a hurricane.

"I am assuming(you know what they say about that) that you have two parallel strings(amperage additive) of 8 series (Voltage additive).
I guess you could wire them any number of combinations to get to 48V but most installers do not want to exceed 3 strings so take that into consideration but to get to three strings would be interesting math with 16 and since they already know that 8 are in series..... well, it would be extraordinary if the other 8 were in some different configuration and I haven't had enough coffee to consider it! I marvel that they can't extrapolate that.....
Sounds to me you have a 48V bank at 740AH"

Yea I know right... Assuming your assumptions are correct, how would you answer her question: How many parallel connections do you have? :?:

CFE underground cables near my casa recently. Cables are ~40-80 meters from house, need to confirm. Anyone know approximate cost to pull cables to casa?

pacside

Alm - 7-13-2015 at 12:40 PM

1. "What type of generator to buy?"

Can't help with generator choice. Solar takes care of my winter needs. Permanent living there is not in my immediate future, and if it will be, I think I'll go on-grid. You probably should do the same. Or get a generator. You're running a hotel in your casa, don't expect guests to care or understand solar basics or energy conservation.

2. "How to know it will go with my solar system? "

There is no compatibility problems of generator and solar, don't worry about this. If you have This 3000 Outback, it's good for (52V*70A)/90%loss= max 4,044W solar array because 48V output is in fact 52V. Anything over 4,044W will be cut off during peak sun, though you might want to go up to 4,500W. Watch out not to exceed max input voltage, this is a no-no.

In winter 4,500W flat array will work as 3,000W, but you are saying that your current 1,350W is almost enough, so...

Tilted panels: well, this is better in winter but then you lose some energy in summer. With current panel prices, for year-round living I would rather get more panel wattage but wouldn't tilt more than 10-20 degrees needed for water and dust drainage or what the roof profile dictates. If panels flew off the roof, then they were not installed properly. Mine didn't even bulge, though I'm on the Cortez side, and mine are almost flat, a lot less wind resistance than with 45 degrees tilt.

Mono vs Poly panels: generally, Poly are more efficient in low-light conditions, less efficient in high-light, and cost less than Mono. But nothing beats the wattage. Max the panels watts up to the limit of your controller.

Er... No. Size does matter. A rule of thumb for solar homes is to size solar - including battery bank - so that you could last 6-10 days of low overcast and rain. In Baja 3-5 days is probably enough (there is plenty of sun during rainy season here). Solar does get some juice on a cloudy day. Rain is a biyatch, this is when you get almost nothing from solar. On a cloudy day (no rain) I'm getting 80-100% of my daily energy needs (depends on how cloudy), so battery goes down by 0-20% on such a day. My solar is smaller than yours, though.

3. "Does a standalone generator need to be covered to protect it from the elements?"

Yes. Not only to protect it from rain and salt spray, but also to protect you and your neighbors from noise. Bob&Susan is right - manufacturers lie, all gennies are noisier than advertised. So called Quiet Honda EU3000 can be heard for several hundreds yards on a calm day. "Cubierta" from cement blocks - 3 walls and roof - will cut the noise several times. Diesel genny will be louder yet than gasoline type.

5. "Would appreciate any recommendations on air conditioning solutions; are there units to cool whole house or best to have portable units for each room. I prefer whole house".

I hope you meant "window units", not "portable". Portable - even those with double hose - don't work nearly as well as window units, and typically cost more, and are more noisy because the entire thing is inside the room.

"Whole house", like ducted central AC? This is a lot more work than a few window AC, though a lot less noise too. With an average window AC in your bedroom you have to have an advanced hearing loss, in order to sleep without ear plugs. Though you may run it in a living room and leave the bedroom door open (in the night), and in the day do the same with a bedroom AC. But then again, you need it for your mini-hotel customers rather than for yourself - so heck with them

, get some cheap and noisy window units 5,000-6,000 BTU each.

[Edited on 7-14-2015 by Alm]

pacside - 7-19-2015 at 04:42 PM

Update:

I purchased a Honda EG6500 watt generator in La Paz due to availability, convenience, possible CFE connection soon and price wasn't much more than U.S.

In casa now and air conditioning is sooo worth it this time of year. I can now enjoy mi casa year round.

Now husband wants to know how soon can I get the generator cover built so he doesn't have to wheel it back and forth where the plug is. Being oceanfront the waves and position of the generator make it so we can't hear it in the house. No neighbors close enough to be bothered so ventilating, weather protection (from salt air, etc) and anti theft is most important and if this gets me to have reduced sound all the better.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to build the gen cover?

Next up: purchasing enough panels to increase from 1080w to at least 3500w.

Thanks to everyone who offered advice. I learned so much.

pacside

laventana - 7-20-2015 at 08:31 AM

Update:

Anyone have any suggestions on how to build the gen cover?

many aspects to covers, but keep in mind one critical aspect that can be easily overlooked is ease of changing the oil, keep that in mind. Also looking into the future say you end up buying a same output but larger footprint one down the road.

[Edited on 7-20-2015 by laventana]

Alm - 7-20-2015 at 09:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by laventana

Also looking into the future say you end up buying a same output but larger footprint one down the road.

They said "possible CFE connection soon". In this case I wouldn't buy any genny other than a very small one (about twice smaller than they bought), for occasional blackouts. But it's just me. Yeah, too many aspects to cover. Hard to believe that waves and location of the genny make it kinda silent for neighbors, either. Unless this is a hundred acres estate with bluffs blocking it from all the sides, cover is a must. Cement blocks.

laventana - 7-20-2015 at 10:20 AM

I guess assuming someday you may have neighbors, happens faster than one would expect when the electric poles are in view. Cement structures blocks do not deaden sound efficiently per say, they reflect or transfer them. So build that structure and put sound absorbing material inside it. So when building, it is sold in the USA sound absorbing board to line the unit.. Just make provisions for adding it later if not found down here.

here were some links I found a ways back that may be beneficial in theory of sound proofing:

http://www.soundproofing.org/infopages/generator.htm

Quiet brace http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-QuietBrace-1-2-in-x-4-f... or Quietboard from lowes.

http://www.supersoundproofingsales.com/Insulation/products/2...

monoloco - 7-20-2015 at 10:45 AM

I built a concrete block building with insulated baffles over the openings, 2" insulated door, and filled the cells of the block with soil. I have a very loud air cooled diesel generator and it cut the sound a lot.

Bob and Susan - 7-20-2015 at 04:06 PM

my back-up generator is similar...
5500w...6500surge

I put a muffler on it...remember these motors have no muffler
just a spark arrester

after...it's still loud...I should have doubled the size of the muffler...
more bad advice

I too need to build a box...but we have to remember its "air cooled"...
you can't restrict the air intake...maybe use a 110v fan
you DO need to replace the oil all the time too...think ahead

for you...a good choice for a backup generator
it will run easily with a 3000w load

problem is...it only runs 7 hours at a time with that gas tank
i just hooked mine up and ran it to "test" it after you posed this thread

the gas tank is only 5 gallons...you really need 15 gallons
the reason why is ...gas here really stinks

every time I fill my tank i spill...damn...and get gas on me...then i stink (maybe normal)

if the run-time is only 7 hours you'll need to get up at night to fill or first thing in the morning...

there's nothing like smelling like Pemex in the morning : )

the ONLY thing I've found to "cut" the smell is acetone or thinner

gnmuff.jpg - 132kB

pacside - 11-3-2016 at 05:06 PM

Update:

My Honda EG6500, by necessity, got overused and broke down. It's fixed but as has been discussed in this thread it has a small gas tank and is not sufficient to run 24/7 for days at a time (batteries died and couldn't replace soon enough so ran this one into the ground)...and my husband did spill gas on himself in the early hours and was NOT happy.

So now in the market for a generator AGAIN

. I made the decision to go with enough solar to handle 90% of the demand and then buy a durable generator that can meet any power demands put on it.

A generator recommended to me by someone I consider extremely knowledgeable is this one:

http://www.costco.com/Cummins-Power-Generation-RS20A-Home-St...

Another generator I'm looking at is this one:

http://www.norwall.com/products/Cummins-Power-Quiet-Connect-...

Thinking propane for both.

I'd be very much interested in any input you may have on this.

I still have 1kw pv on the roof, an inverter and need batteries for the 1kw pv (batteries are dead). Suggestions on battery type/qty is welcome as well. I like the powerwall 2.0 and those types of things but don't think they are ready for primetime. So looking at ones that will get me through the next couple years.

Thanks a bunch!

pacside

edit: no grid in the foreseeable future.

[Edited on 11-4-2016 by pacside]

mjs - 11-3-2016 at 08:03 PM

There are benefits to propane like long storage life but I think you'll find that for anything other than short term emergency use you will be better off with diesel. You'll use a lot of propane and will have to have a large tank and fill it often if you run the generator for extended time. The simple reason is that there is more energy in a given volume of diesel than in gas or propane (in that order).

As for generator selection, if you are going to use it a lot then stay away from the home standby type units and get something that is designed for use as a prime power unit, i.e. full time or extended run. Another thing that favors diesel is the maintenance intervals and long life design of the engine. A propane engine is just a gasoline engine run on a different fuel.

You say you have 1kW of solar but you need a 6.5kW generator. That is way out of balance. BWOE, I have 5kW (theoretical) of solar when 2.5kW is adequate for my needs so even with cloudy days I don't have to run the generator. Since I don't need the generator except for emergency I use a 7kW propane unit. (Much lower cost than a diesel unit) Other than to occasionally exercise the unit it has not been run in over a year.

If you want a real long life battery (up to 20 years) than an industrial or forklift type battery is the best value IMO. You have to maintain it as it is a wet cell battery. The drawback is the weight which can make it difficult to handle. But with only 1kW of solar you're not able to charge a large battery bank. Ideally, you want to be able to charge at 10 to 20% of the battery capacity. So using this rule, a 1kW PV array can charge a 800 to 400 amp hour 12V battery bank, or 400 to 200 amp hour 24V battery. This is assuming you are getting an actual 1kW out of the array.

There's a lot that goes into designing a good off-grid electrical system. You should start with getting a good realistic idea of your actual needs and then seek the help of a qualified company or engineer to help you come up with a balanced system that works for you. By balanced I mean integrated solar, inverter, storage and generation.

laventana - 11-3-2016 at 09:46 PM

Update:

My Honda EG6500, by necessity, got overused and broke down. It's fixed but as has been discussed in this thread it has a small gas tank and is not sufficient to run 24/7 for days at a time (batteries died and couldn't replace soon enough so ran this one into the ground)...and my husband did spill gas on himself in the early hours and was NOT happy.

So now in the market for a generator AGAIN

I have a 2kW diesel generator and 3kW diesel generator for sale, both have less than 100 hours on them. They are Yanmar Japanese design Engines, well made in Italy. Both can be pull started and can be started via battery. The 2kW is only 110VAC the 3kW is 220VAC. When the hurricane hit I used a 2Kw one that uses I think about .2 gallons per hour and I ran 3 full sized fridges on it and a small 8000 BTU AC. These are fuel sippers and if running all the time a diesel will pay for itself in fuel savings. Also you load them up to 80% so in essence they are underrated vs gas ones. Because these are also single cylinder air cooled and parts are readily available they can last a long time. They are 3600 rpm so they are loud, you must have a housing.

I have them in LaVentana. They are very heavy for their output, because of the quality. 150 lbs and 300 lbs. Brand new these today would list for over $5k and $8k USD. one is under $2,000.00 and the other just over that. These should last and last.

larryC - 11-4-2016 at 06:39 AM

I set my solar system so that it would handle all my elec needs with minimal generator help, and so far after 15 years I have no complaints. After several days of clouds I do need to run the generator and for that I have a 6.5KW Kubota. When I run the gen my 2 inverters can put 250 amps at 12v back into the batteries so that with just 3 or 4 hours of generator run time I can run another 2 days on the batteries. The Kubota is a self contained unit that is quiet and since it is diesel it is very reliable. You might also want to consider installing an AGS (auto gen start) in your system so that when your batteries get low the gen will start and recharge the batteries and then shut sown when the charge cycle is finished.
Good luck with your system
Larry

monoloco - 11-4-2016 at 09:47 AM

If you are going to depend on a generator for prime power, diesel is the only way to go. With proper maintenance a good name brand 1800 rpm diesel generator will last for 20-30,000 hours. Also with diesel, you avoid the fuel storage issues that you will have with gas, and the cost of operations will be much less over the life of the generator. A 7kw diesel generator will use about a liter of fuel an hour. Something like this will give you a lot of bang for the buck:
http://www.centralmainediesel.com/order/800TS.asp?page=800TS

[Edited on 11-4-2016 by monoloco]

Bob and Susan - 11-4-2016 at 12:47 PM

I would get a diesel generator ONLY
because baja gets a lot of damage from winds and rain and EVENTS

when a Catastrophe happens...
there WILL be no propane deliveries but diesel will always be available...
and remember you can ALWAYS buy diesel from a non-moving truck driver if you have pesos in your pocket

as for size...get the smallest generator you can use...
diesel is expensive
BIG engine BIG money to run
size for double your use in wattage
don't overtax the generator thinking you can use 80% of the power...
50% and your unit will give you clean lasting power

don't buy a sound box...they are almost worthless stopping noise...build a sound enclosure that you can work in to service the generator...lots of room...but...build it so you can get the generator out if you need to take it away for repair

get an 1800rpm unit forget the 3600rpm units...
you'll use 1/2 the fuel

I noticed the units you referenced don't have a fuel tank...$$$
don't put the tank UNDER the generator...mistake...diesel is heavy...
get a tank you can wheel around and don't have to fill every day

I bought an electric pump to pump out the fuel from 5 gallon fuel cans to the generator tank...filling by hand is an effort...and...messy
now I stick a tube in the can and in a minute its empty

the air filters on the units you referenced are TOO SMALL...get a BIG air filter...diesels take a lot of air to run correctly

don't buy the generator because its a cummings or kabota etc
these are commercial engines and the parts are always different from a truck engine...these big companies will "sell their name" and you may be buying an inferior product

buy a unit with a well known named GENERATOR (not the engine)
remember china products are ALWAYS inferior...look where everything is made

if you buy a unit in Maine USA ...figure NO GUARANTEE
too hard to ship it back
these businesses just "put together parts" and make a unit
they don't manufacture generators

if you need to save money...
think about buying a used unit with low hours on a trailer
...maybe in san diego then import it
there is a lot of stuff around

laventana - 11-4-2016 at 09:55 PM

Bob, I am curious to where you found information on running at 50%. I would like to see that data. The 3600rpms are certainly noisy and need a box of some sort. Luckily where I live I can put them far enough away from me where I do not get annoyed and it is a ghost town here in the summer.

I believe what I have read is the mistake is not running at 80% or at least from time to time loading it down to prevent, I think the term is called wet stacking. Also carbon can build up in the cylinders if below 50%. https://books.google.com.mx/books?id=_mEohL5Upj0C&pg=PA8...

The generators I have are what the military buys for war zones, so rigorously tested and probably the most reliable in the world, you do not want your generator to die in a war zone for some reason. On the forums the guys who were trained on them I remember say run them up at 80 percent load.

Also they say the military ones are rated different, they are an actual rating not the consumer fudged ratings. Obviously in a war zone you need to pull the power it is rated as sometimes you are running systems that cost 10s of thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars, or someone is being operated on. So a different criteria.. That is why there is a huge following and tech info on these military ones. Ya they paid a lot for them, but i buy them used less than 100 hours for the small ones and the larger not as important..

As the military guys explain in general they military ones can put out about 2 times the rated for 1-5 minutes and 50% extra for 5-30 minutes.

Also I have never read where the 1800rpm are half usage of fuel of the 3600 ones except when talking about gas to diesel. Most if not all 3600rpm generator sets were designed for gas. It appears the military wanted smaller generators and one was made using 3600rpm generators and matched with the diesel engine because the military is all diesel. I used 0.2 gallons of fuel recently per hour at 80% load 16 hours a day on a 2K one. Here are two generators I have a 5kW 1800rpm military and my 2k 3600rpm one. the fuel consumption is quite similar per KWH the 5k one is a cummings with 700 hours on it. I would sell either of these. Same price from the below site that also sells them but you do not have to pay the shipping from US east coast to here and I match their warrenty. Note this 5k generator weighs in at 900 lbs. These military ones are built to the highest standards.

https://greenmountaingenerators.com/product/mep802a-5kw-mili...

https://greenmountaingenerators.com/product/mep-531a-2kw-mil...

And there is the cost of repair for the smaller under 5kW ones. Air cooled yanmar (top of the line diesel motor) generators should get from 7000 hours to 10,000 if run properly at a high load. Some claim they have 15,000 hours on them. There is a cult of people for these military generators with a forum. Also consider the parts because it is one cylinder to rebuild are just a few hundred dollars and found readily on ebay because of how popular that Yanmar engine is. Virtually any diesel mechanic can repair a single cylinder with their eyes wide shut, as well as most gas engine guys. Rebuild should in labor be about $200.00 to $300.00. Once you go to two cylinders you need a model specific specialist in general.

I can walk up and pull start my smaller ones if need be. It is easy peasy. I actually do that because I do not even keep it hooked up to batteries.

monoloco - 11-7-2016 at 05:25 PM

Bob is probably right if he's talking about a cheap back-up generator. If you are going to use a diesel generator for prime power, it is better to buy a 100% duty cycle generator that is designed to run continuously at full load. The blanket statement about a 3600rpm generator using twice as much fuel is not correct, the main reason for 3600 rpm is that they can produce more power in a smaller lighter package, the drawback is that they use twice as many rpm's to produce the same amount of power so they will have roughly half the lifespan as a 1800rpm generator.

Bob and Susan - 11-8-2016 at 06:11 AM

think about this ...
laventana is a "used generator salesman"
selling his produce is important to him...$$$
a military spec generator is made for military needs ONLY
it may not be what a homeowner using ac in the summer needs

and no one rebuilds a one cylinder diesel engine on a generator...try to find a "dealer"...impossible

monoloco...
100% duty cycle DOESNT mean you can use the total rated power all the time...it means its a continues run unit..

a 50% duty cycle means (example) 7 hours on 7 hours off
it HAS to cool down

now lets go to the REAL world...
would you drive your truck with the engine running 24-7-365 under load...
answer is HELL no

something will fail...

your engine can run a long time but you really need to let it cool down and service it daily...

there is NOTHING worse than a generator failing at 1am and its 100f degrees outside and DARK

my generator is MUCH happier running at half load or less...overloading it causes the frequency (voltage) to drop making the equipment work harder and possibably burn up...
also... oil tends to fail when overheated or over worked...

most "new stuff" has circuit boards now days and electrics fry if you cant give them clean power

as for fuel usage hahaha
run your car at 1800rpm...you'll be going 60mph
run your car at 3600rpm...you be going 120mph

now...ask yourself this question...do I use more gas at a continual speed of 60mph or more gas at 120mph?

the answer is... you use double...do a test
drive 30mph for 4 hours and fill the tank...then drive for 4 hours at 60mph and fill the tank...you'll be amazed how much fuel you can save driving slower

i'm not a salesman or a generator engineer...just an end user...this is what I see

monoloco - 11-8-2016 at 10:01 AM

think about this ...
laventana is a "used generator salesman"
selling his produce is important to him...$$$
a military spec generator is made for military needs ONLY
it may not be what a homeowner using ac in the summer needs

and no one rebuilds a one cylinder diesel engine on a generator...try to find a "dealer"...impossible

monoloco...
100% duty cycle DOESNT mean you can use the total rated power all the time...it means its a continues run unit..

a 50% duty cycle means (example) 7 hours on 7 hours off
it HAS to cool down

now lets go to the REAL world...
would you drive your truck with the engine running 24-7-365 under load...
answer is HELL no

something will fail...

your engine can run a long time but you really need to let it cool down and service it daily...

there is NOTHING worse than a generator failing at 1am and its 100f degrees outside and DARK

my generator is MUCH happier running at half load or less...overloading it causes the frequency (voltage) to drop making the equipment work harder and possibably burn up...
also... oil tends to fail when overheated or over worked...

most "new stuff" has circuit boards now days and electrics fry if you cant give them clean power

as for fuel usage hahaha
run your car at 1800rpm...you'll be going 60mph
run your car at 3600rpm...you be going 120mph

now...ask yourself this question...do I use more gas at a continual speed of 60mph or more gas at 120mph?

the answer is... you use double...do a test
drive 30mph for 4 hours and fill the tank...then drive for 4 hours at 60mph and fill the tank...you'll be amazed how much fuel you can save driving slower

i'm not a salesman or a generator engineer...just an end user...this is what I see

If you go here: http://www.hardydiesel.com and look at the specs of an 11KW 3600 rpm Kubota Low Boy generator and a 12KW 1800 rpm Kubota generator, you will see that the 3600rpm generator will use 3.7 liters per hour at 75% power and the 1800 rpm generator will use 3.1 liters per hour, so it is nowhere near double the fuel consumption. A generator needs to be sized for the highest load, no household generator is likely to run at full load all the time, but it is also harmful to a diesel generator to not load it enough due to the wet stacking problem mentioned by laventana. I have an old Onan 6kw air cooled diesel generator that I run my shop with, and I routinely run it for 5 or 6 hours at a time at 90% load because I have a 3 hp planer and a 3 hp tablesaw that are right at the limit of what it will run. I have been using this generator like this now for 15 years and have never had one issue with it. It currently has over 15000 hours on it, and I've never done anything to it but change the oil and the filters

laventana - 11-8-2016 at 10:27 AM

Bob, OUCH....

I am also an engineer of a sort, certainly not a generator engineer. I am also a decent mechanic, have rebuilt engines and such with no help from anyone. Was a machinist to pay for college. That is why I asked politely for specifically where you got that information. Yes, your opinion is also important to me but as I can make mistakes too.

Now Bob here is where your point you just made may be wrong and why I asked for a link.

Remember for a 1800rpm to put out the same say 5 kW power and a 3600rpm it has to have approximately double the weight of mass to have equal wattage power output. That is why you can read the 1800rpm ones are very heavy. To slow it down you have to add proportionately more windings to get equivalent power output i think I had read before a long time ago. .

So here is maybe a more appropriate analogy to your car speed to demonstrate this... What kind of fuel milage does my vw diesel at 3000 lbs Ford diesel F350 truck at 6000 lbs. Well the truck gets 15 mpg and the car 42 mpg both driving at 60mph, both have turbos. the profile does also enter into the equation too but not taken into the equation..
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-350_super_duty?engineconfig...

The military generators are rated to run at 24/7/365 so your definition 100% duty cycle. There are forums that are specifically for these generators with mechanics that ran them for the military you can draw knowledge from. And they will tell you these generators prefer to be run up at about 80% load. And running a diesel generator in general for prolonged times at a low load is not good.

So who is correct, , yes I did like your approach to fuel efficiency, but I believe that was not accurate per my example. Before I will be swayed to dismiss what I had read on that forum and the fact you have to spin something in the order of double the weight is what I have read to be corrected if i read something different. IMHO

The life there is no question to be half. But as I point out on a small single cylinder unit the costs to rebuild are so low it is laughable. I would even attempt to rebuild it myself. Where there is no way I am going to try to rebuild a multi cylinder diesel engine.

[Edited on 11-8-2016 by laventana]

mjs - 11-8-2016 at 11:15 AM

Using a car/truck fuel comparison is of no value. The biggest use of energy in a vehicle is wind resistance which increases as a square of speed so the fuel consumed at 120MPH will be more than double that used at 60MPH.

Regarding fuel consumption, a generator is only converting one form of energy to another. If you remember your basics physics, energy is never lost or used it only changes form. The generator converts BTUs (energy units of the fuel type) to electrical energy and heat. Ignoring the heat loss, it takes the same amount of energy (engine HP or kW) to produce a kW of electricity regardless of the fuel type of generator RPM. The minor differences in fuel consumption at different engine speeds are due to combustion efficiency of the engine and the friction and heat loss of the generator. The BTU or Caloric content of the fuel type is also the reason that a diesel (higher BTU / gallon) uses less fuel than the gas or propane unit.

For optimum fuel efficiency an internal combustion engine should be run at high load. This is a diesel’s strong point as it can produce more torque at a lower RPM give the same engine design (# of cylinders, bore x stroke, etc). To go back to the car analogy, all newer cars use an overdrive transmission. Most 6 speeds are multiple overdrive (5th and 6th are both overdrive) Cruising on the freeway in 6th gets the engine RPMs down low and loads the motor which increases engine efficiency and improves fuel economy. Encounter a hill and the transmission downshifts because the engine cannot carry the additional load of going uphill. (OT - To go back to your fuel use analogy, my corvette reached top speed -165MPH- in 5th gear not 6th due to the overdrive, and returned about 3 MPG at that speed. In 6th gear at 80MPH it would get 27-30 MPG.)

3600 RPM gensets are popular due to the design requirements of the power unit. It takes substantially more copper (=$$) to build an 1800 RPM alternator AND the engine needs to produce enough torque at the lower RPM (higher HP = $$) to drive the alternator. So in a cost driven market of cheap generators the 3600 RPM unit is common. Shop for a high quality unit and you’ll likely be looking at only 1800 RPM diesel driven generators. And while not having owned one, those ex-military units do have some impressive specifications.

BTW, diesels do run continuously for long periods of time in many industries without issue as long as temperature and lubrication is maintained within the design limits of the engine.

Also, when considering noise, a water cooled engine will be quieter than an air cooled engine. And a well-designed manufactured sound enclosure will probably beat most home built boxes. To build a custom enclosure requires analysis of the frequencies that need to be dampened, the type of materials being used to construct the enclosure, the type of insulation to be used and the required air for the unit and its flow path. I say this as someone who spent 10 years working with portable film (silent) generators before spending the next 25 working with some of the best acousticians in the business building stages and TV studios.

BTW, that 5500 watt Coleman is very optimistically rated. I inherited one and it would not run the 30 amp load that my 3600 watt Honda would. Both gas and 3600 RPM units. I gave the Coleman away and kept the Honda. That's why it works well for you at 50% load, at 80% of the nameplate wattage you're overloading the generator.

[Edited on 11-8-2016 by mjs]

willardguy - 11-8-2016 at 11:42 AM

very informative, gracias! :light:

monoloco - 11-8-2016 at 06:03 PM

You are just asking for more problems with those generators, they are designed for occasional back-up power, not off-grid use. They won't be any better than the Honda that you already experienced problems with.

DutchTreat2 - 11-9-2016 at 08:25 PM

We have a 15KW diesel, water cooled, Perkins 3 cylinder engine, Very quiet! (sounds like a car sitting there at idle).. We run 2 1 ton ACs, a fridge, freezer, washing machine, fans, TVs, Sat internet, and much other stuff.. all this and charge batteries, and use about 1/2 gallon of diesel per hour.. I also have this system on an auto-start, so when the batteries get down to 70% the gen set comes on and turns off when they get back up to 92%.. This type of system would be ideal with renters,, we don't rent our place but could..We stay here at Coyote beach year around and didn't want to be camping..

laventana - 11-10-2016 at 07:53 AM

the 15kw with auto turn on sounds ideal to run the home, including while charging the batteries. Afraid to ask how much such a system costs, minus generator but for people not on the grid seems quite ideal.. Do you leave that on when not here to keep the batteries from (is it sulfating), or do you have a solar panel too.

For people that are off the grid another potential when upgrading appliances... the new inverter AC units, and inverter refrigerators, invertor pool pumps have some amazing specs, though you still have to deal with initial inrush of current for a motor/compressor on start up for generator only set-ups.

Alm - 11-10-2016 at 03:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by laventana

inverter refrigerators, invertor pool pumps have some amazing specs, though you still have to deal with initial inrush of current for a motor/compressor on start up for generator only set-ups.

Inverter refrigerators are DC machines. They don't have a start-up spike, this is the whole point of getting inverter appliances with generator-only setup. Though, such a setup is becoming a thing of the past. Hybrid inverter would let you running a smaller generator, with battery supplying more energy during the spike. Solar is often included in the setup too (and also inputs during the spike).

This (eliminated) spike is not too important in case of inverter fridge because fridge current is low. It doesn't affect energy savings either, since it lasts fraction of a second. OTH, it requires inverter, this in itself adds 10-15% loss. Other gains in fridge efficiency come from the box design and have little to do with inverter.

[Edited on 11-10-2016 by Alm]

laventana - 11-10-2016 at 03:27 PM

Alm, Wow I was not aware they eliminate/minimize start up spike..... Never investigated them that closely....

wholly crap that is huge for us generator and even battery people.... That alone makes them so worth it... In engineering terms I always had to account for that short spike that plays havoc on all electronics through the system design. I was always concerned that all three fridges and or AC compressors hit at the same time, which a few must have because a circuit breaker has gone one time.

Ya the fridges may not be saving as much $$$$ as a pool pump or a AC unit but when on generator or solar every 20%-40% of a major energy consumer counts. I was recently looking at a pool pump for my father and that was really amazing I assume they have the actual numbers down for them, he would be paying $120.00 a month for electric for the pool pump only vs currently $300.00 a month. Ya that is huge vs a fridge only saving if only 20% off of 30 bucks a month electric cost..

here is link that verifies what you said. Had to verify that one... so thanks for the post learn something new everyday.

https://www.bijlibachao.com/refrigerators/refrigerators-with...

Lesser known benefits of Inverter Technology

Quote:

Lesser known benefits of Inverter Technology Regular motors need 3-4 times more current (more than running current) at startup. So the inverter/generator size needed to run any AC or Refrigerator increases significantly.

But Inverter Technology air conditioners and refrigerators have variable speed motors that start up gradually needing much lesser current at startup. Thus the size of inverter/generator required to startup is less. For e.g. A 1.5 ton fixed speed AC that runs at about 10 Amp current may need up to 30 Amp current at startup and thus a 5 kVA inverter/generator. But an inverter technology Air Conditioner needs about 6-7 Amp current and not much more at startup and thus a 1.5 kVA or 2 kVA inverter/generator is good enough to support it.

Regular motors have much lower power factor. In commercial and industrial connections there is penalty for low power factor and rebates for higher power factor. An inverter technology motor will have power factor close to unity (or 1) which not only results in lesser electricity consumption but also help get rebates on better power factor. If you are planning to use Solar PV for air conditioner, then it is the best to use inverter technology air conditioner or refrigerator as it not only reduces the size of PV panels because it consumes lesser electricity, it also reduces the size of inverter to be put along with the PV panel.

Alm - 11-10-2016 at 03:31 PM

Ventana, I edited the previous post - DC machines don't have a spike, but the spike can be dealt with in a different way. There are hybrid inverters-chargers that would suck the needed energy out of the battery bank (and from solar too) during the spike.

This video explains it.

There are certain manufacturers claims that their inverter fridges are 50% more efficient than regular compressors, but I doubt this. Not THAT much. The spike itself is very short. Better insulated box - better efficiency.

I would still prefer inverter air conditioner no matter of energy savings. Constant humming is less annoying than on-off cycling.

[Edited on 11-10-2016 by Alm]

willardguy - 11-10-2016 at 03:43 PM

my daughter just bought a new LG fridge with this relatively new compressor, they have the coolest cut-away simulators showing how a conventional compressor works vs these inverter compressors, very little friction created by these compressors.....on a side note, LG is building refrigerators for SEARS, refrigerators are identical

soylent_green - 11-10-2016 at 04:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy

my daughter just bought a new LG fridge with this relatively new compressor, they have the coolest cut-away simulators showing how a conventional compressor works vs these inverter compressors, very little friction created by these compressors.....on a side note, LG is building refrigerators for SEARS, refrigerators are identical

they had an LG 16 CF smart inverter compressor refrigerator 3 weeks ago when I went to the Walmart in Rosarito. 363kWh per year

$9890 pesos
===

interesting thread.
I am going to set up my outback inverter / charger probably this weekend so I can manually run my small inverter generator. My PV array seems to be fine keeping my batteries charged - at least for the past 1 1/2 years Ive had it up, but getting the backup for just in case.

soylent_green - 11-10-2016 at 04:17 PM

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IMG_0999.jpg - 49kB

Alm - 11-10-2016 at 04:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by soylent_green

they had an LG 16 CF smart inverter compressor refrigerator 3 weeks ago when I went to the Walmart in Rosarito. 363kWh per year

I remember a regular "dumb" compressor Frigidaire 16 cf, 350 KWH a year

laventana - 11-10-2016 at 08:33 PM