BajaNomad

Arroyo Grande

4x4abc - 4-8-2015 at 05:15 PM

so, we were told that you could not get out of Arroyo Grande going upstream.
Supposedly big boulders and too many trees and bushes around the abandoned Rancho Arroyo Grande.
What boulders and what bushes?
It was tight but a real pleasure to drive in the shade.



The only thing that slowed progress after leaving the arroyo was opening and closing gates. About 10 of them



[Edited on 4-9-2015 by 4x4abc]

[Edited on 4-9-2015 by 4x4abc]

[Edited on 4-9-2015 by 4x4abc]

chuckie - 4-8-2015 at 06:31 PM

WOW! That's really cool..CUT someone elses locked gate? If that happened on my Ranch,someone would be in jail....And then to brag about it....???? What a low life....SHAME SHAME

woody with a view - 4-8-2015 at 06:38 PM

^^^gotta agree^^^

4x4abc - 4-8-2015 at 08:32 PM

well, Hombres, if you buy a property in Mexico and an established road runs through it, you can either parallel-fence the road (dividing your property) - or put up gates (users open and close as needed). But by law you can not block access to that road.




[Edited on 4-9-2015 by 4x4abc]

[Edited on 4-9-2015 by 4x4abc]

rts551 - 4-8-2015 at 09:10 PM

Sounds like the "established road" is the new one you posted about. Baja has a lot of meandering desert roads and not all of them are considered established. The Sierra San Pedro Martir area is a good example of an area where roads have been blocked off, legally.

Archie - 4-8-2015 at 09:19 PM

You see that sign on the back?

Its for a project founded by the mexican govt. and the UNEP (UN environment Programme) to help ejidos, ranchers and land owners, like the ejido 16 de septiembre to conserve, protect and improve ecosystem services in their land since 2013.

the national forestry comission pays the ejido an amount to do exactly the opposite of what you did: not opening new roads, close old roads, maintain the vegetative coberture in the soil and prevent erosion. Every year they have to pass a on site verification of this subjects and other, including monitoring wildlife.

Its severely penalized not doing what they've compromised to, resulting in their anual payment reduced or canceled.

One thing to note its that they are using game cameras on some spots for the wildlife monitoring, and I really hope they have one on the gate you broke.

Can you refer which law is that you mention that the land owner cannot close roads?.

Ken Cooke - 4-8-2015 at 09:23 PM

I say, keep Baja open to all! :yes:

PaulW - 4-9-2015 at 06:40 AM

If one of you have a GPS track please send it to me and I will try to figure out why we were in the wrong place to get thru the AG bushes and trees.
Thanks, PW

woody with a view - 4-9-2015 at 06:44 AM

DK, is the map you are using the 2015 AAA, Baja Almanac or similar map?

[Edited on 4-9-2015 by woody with a view]

rts551 - 4-9-2015 at 07:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by rts551  
Sounds like the "established road" is the new one you posted about. Baja has a lot of meandering desert roads and not all of them are considered established. The Sierra San Pedro Martir area is a good example of an area where roads have been blocked off, legally.


It may not matter with you, but:

The road in Arroyo Grande is shown open the entire length on Mexican maps.

This was not in the San Pedro Martir, or any national forest.


Please. What map are you talking about? There was a claim earlier about Mexican law, which is why I used the roads in the mountains as an example. I thought you were all for property rights? Only in the USA?

Bajaboy - 4-9-2015 at 08:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Again, it isn't hard, I was not there with Karl and Harald south of our hike area. If some land owner blocks an open public road, I do not care what side of the border he is on.

Here is a map showing the entire Arroyo Grande road between the Pole Line Road and Hwy. 3 with an arrow showing where we parted with Harald and Karl, at our camp:





[Edited on 4-9-2015 by David K]


I'm sorry your honor, the map made me do it

rts551 - 4-9-2015 at 08:07 AM

Hmmm what happened to all the pictures? Second thoughts about what is legal?

rts551 - 4-9-2015 at 08:18 AM

David, If what you say is true, there would be more roads than property in Baja. Seems people make new roads all the time. Last night, I asked a property attorney to look at the thread and photos. His message back to me was that ingress and egress to other properties is required for THOSE property owners. nothing else unless Federal property such as the coastline or a federal park is involved. He gave examples where many properties have been recently fenced off along hwy's 1 and 3. The Ejido land by Rancho Grande is almost entirely fenced off from the hwy now. His message to me....get used to it..Baja is growing up. cutting a lock is property damage.

rts551 - 4-9-2015 at 08:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by rts551  
Sounds like the "established road" is the new one you posted about. Baja has a lot of meandering desert roads and not all of them are considered established. The Sierra San Pedro Martir area is a good example of an area where roads have been blocked off, legally.


It may not matter with you, but:

The road in Arroyo Grande is shown open the entire length on Mexican maps.

This was not in the San Pedro Martir, or any national forest.


Ruining this thread belongs to one person and one person only. It was always addressed and on topic to the OP until YOU addressed a post elsewhere.

rts551 - 4-9-2015 at 08:49 AM

Another example of locked gates is the coastline between Bahia Asuncion (SAn Roque) and Bahia Tortugas. Numerous access roads to the coastline gated and locked by the Cooperativa. The one we got around on our quads got us an escort to the next gate by the Vigilancia.

4x4abc - 4-9-2015 at 10:15 AM

I apologize guys - forgot my own doctrine to post sunsets and sunrises only.

And David, you might remove the part of your report where you bypassed a locked gate on PLR before rts551 finds it.

rts551 - 4-9-2015 at 11:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I apologize guys - forgot my own doctrine to post sunsets and sunrises only.

And David, you might remove the part of your report where you bypassed a locked gate on PLR before rts551 finds it.


But you were so proud of yourself for cutting the lock and thus destroying someone elses property. Got to admit, I have been around a few locked gates (and sometimes caught). but never destroyed the lock, and certainly did not justify it based on we are only temporary on this planet. I am somewhat surprised at a person who prides himself on off-road training programs to the State of California, FBI, etc. If I come cut the lock on your door, Is it OK? how about I just drive across your front yard...I mean you are only there temporarily. :?:



[Edited on 4-9-2015 by rts551]

DianaT - 4-9-2015 at 11:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I apologize guys - forgot my own doctrine to post sunsets and sunrises only.

And David, you might remove the part of your report where you bypassed a locked gate on PLR before rts551 finds it.


Don't apologize because someone isn't having a good time here, and if we didn't explore Old California by going around locked gates, (and not steeling or damaging property), then we are a poorer people for what is not seen. The land is the land and it is forever... People can only claim it for a short time because we are temporary on this planet.


From what Archie reported, it seems that Baja is beginning to do what there are doing more of up where we live. More and more old dirt roads are being blocked off and closed down so the vegetation can return ---- erosion problems, abuse of the areas, and preserving it for the future occupants of this earth. While most of the roads being closed are ones that were carved out by off roaders, some of them are on maps.

That sounds like a good program for the environment and as a way for the ejido to earn some money. While I know that several organizations are working on protecting lots of areas of Baja, I was not aware of this government program. Thanks Archie --- good information

rts551 - 4-9-2015 at 12:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I apologize guys - forgot my own doctrine to post sunsets and sunrises only.

And David, you might remove the part of your report where you bypassed a locked gate on PLR before rts551 finds it.


Don't apologize because someone isn't having a good time here, and if we didn't explore Old California by going around locked gates, (and not steeling or damaging property), then we are a poorer people for what is not seen. The land is the land and it is forever... People can only claim it for a short time because we are temporary on this planet.


Looks like your posts are temporary as well. Why throw them out there and then delete them. People will still know you took this thread off-topic.

woody with a view - 4-9-2015 at 12:56 PM

No one is unhappy you found a shady road in the desert. That's cool. How is the guy who finds his chain sawed open going to feel? All the banter about maps showing a road is a deflectionary response to the turd in the punchbowl. You should have never said anything about cutting a chain. Showing a sawzall was another bad decision.


But then again, who cares? You guys have maps on your side!

The rest of the trip looks awesome tho......

rts551 - 4-9-2015 at 01:14 PM

People may wonder why this is an issue for me.

I am an off-roader..Truck, Jeep, and ATV. I (and my son) are off-road racers. Things like this ruin it for everyone. Regardless of the excuses. So next time you b-tch about a racer or pre runner, Think about these guys....not the majority of off-roaders and racers who care about what they are doing.

David K - 4-9-2015 at 01:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rts551  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
I apologize guys - forgot my own doctrine to post sunsets and sunrises only.

And David, you might remove the part of your report where you bypassed a locked gate on PLR before rts551 finds it.


Don't apologize because someone isn't having a good time here, and if we didn't explore Old California by going around locked gates, (and not steeling or damaging property), then we are a poorer people for what is not seen. The land is the land and it is forever... People can only claim it for a short time because we are temporary on this planet.


Looks like your posts are temporary as well. Why throw them out there and then delete them. People will still know you took this thread off-topic.


Any posts that you boys duplicate I removed because there is no need to see it twice on one page to keep the thread moving. Nothing off topic I see either. I will delete this one too if you quote it for the same reason.

woody with a view - 4-9-2015 at 02:02 PM

he could turn around. you don't have a clue why the road is closed.

i'll leave it there....... not much more to say anyway.

wessongroup - 4-9-2015 at 02:03 PM

Practical ... yes, Legal ... No

Enjoy it while you can :):)

The days of just going any place .... keeps getting smaller and smaller

[Edited on 4-9-2015 by wessongroup]

Bajaboy - 4-9-2015 at 02:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
DianaT, 73 year old roads closed CAUSES damage by people making bypass routes over virgen land as we so clearly illustrate here. The rancher is 100% responsible for the 1/2 mile detour road. If one came from 40 miles over that road to find the end blocked, he has no choice but to find a way around.


I wonder what Mike from Baja Dark Skies might say about this issue?

David K - 4-9-2015 at 02:47 PM

There is no ranch, observatory, retreat, B&B, development, or people... within sight of the 1942 road... none. So, Zac, apples and oranges.

I respect what Mike tried to achieve at Rancho Concepcion (Dark Skies Inn)... I had hoped to visit there before it closed. However, it isn't rocket science to figure what could happen if you suddenly close roads that people need or use to get around. Buying a ranch in the middle of a road route, rather than at the end of a road and then saying the game has changed obviously met with resistance from the Mexican off road groups and others, according to Mike's posts.

There is a saying, "If you can't beat them, join them". Mike could have more business by welcoming four wheelers and bike riders, like Mike's Sky Rancho and Rancho El Coyote, if he wanted it. He told me he doesn't, and that is his business, not ours!

rts551 - 4-9-2015 at 03:02 PM

How quickly we conveniently forget. Mike tried to accommodate people through his property in the beginning. Their inconsideration, damage to his fence and property, and cutting locks on the gates caused him to reconsider and close it permanently.

wessongroup - 4-9-2015 at 03:04 PM

This has moved ?? ... :biggrin::biggrin:

Legal .. Yes ... Practical no ... :):)

[Edited on 4-9-2015 by wessongroup]

David K - 4-9-2015 at 03:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup  
This has moved ?? ... :biggrin::biggrin:


It was in the Hiking Forum, and this clearly is an Off Roading issue. Thanks to Doug for working on Nomad while on vacation!

David K - 4-9-2015 at 03:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rts551  
How quickly we conveniently forget. Mike tried to accommodate people through his property in the beginning. Their inconsideration, damage to his fence and property, and cutting locks on the gates caused him to reconsider and close it permanently.


Didn't forget a thing... the road was not open, except by invitation, and that didn't work too well, did it? Nothing wrong with Mike wanting privacy, but again an existing road closed by the new guy didn't work in the end. I just wish Mike could have worked it out so it was a win-win.

rts551 - 4-9-2015 at 04:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by rts551  
How quickly we conveniently forget. Mike tried to accommodate people through his property in the beginning. Their inconsideration, damage to his fence and property, and cutting locks on the gates caused him to reconsider and close it permanently.


Didn't forget a thing... the road was not open, except by invitation, and that didn't work too well, did it? Nothing wrong with Mike wanting privacy, but again an existing road closed by the new guy didn't work in the end. I just wish Mike could have worked it out so it was a win-win.


Like I said. How quickly we forget. from

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=58082&pag...
Quote:

If you examine the maps I have posted, you can see that as recent as 2003, the road from Astro's place to the Observatory road is not shown... i.e. it is a 'new' road.

Before Astro (Mike) bought the land, the road was pushed through from Rancho Concepcion (now Baja Dark Skies Inn) to the Observatory road and the previous owner gave SCORE permission to use it for a Baja race.

It seems that if the above is true then it can hardly be considered 'grandfathered' as a right-of-way to the public. Remember it was the bad behavior by a 4WD club and marijuana farmers that caused AstroBaja to put up the gates in the first place. If people would be respectful then this road may have been left open. He certainly goes beyond the ordinary by opening the gate if he is asked to by the other 4wd and m/c clubs.

4x4abc - 4-9-2015 at 05:03 PM

just food for thought - if you buy property and an established road runs through it. Go ahead and lock it. Fine with me. Nobody can get it. Fine with me.
If I would find a locked gate as an entrance to a property, I would respect that every day.

In our case we traveled along an established road, found some abandoned ranchos, opened several gates and then found ourselves locked inside a property which had not been locked at our side of entry.

Had the same thing happen to me on the same property 20 years ago. Drove back 5 miles to a working ranch and asked for the key.
"Where did you come from?"
"From Arroyo Grande."
"Nobody comes from there"
"Well, I did."
They were kind and opened the gate.

Same rancho 20 years later. We find ourselves locked inside. No bid deal, I drive back to the rancho.
No more rancho.
2 luxurious houses with horse stables etc.
Nobody around to ask for a key.
Drove around for 30 minutes to find a caretaker.
Nobody around for miles.
So, we looked for a low damage way around the gate.
Nada
Going back was not an option.
Not because we are lazy - no, we had only gas for maybe 40 miles.
The way back would have been 100+ miles.

The way I see it, the owners carelessly trapped us. We exited causing as little damage as possible.

By the way, the sign advertising government funds at work to restore nature. We counted about 20 newly bulldozed roads inside the old rancho. They are definitely not there to protect nature. They are protecting their privacy and investment. Nothing wrong with that.
But please make an effort to lock all gates.

The people I train would have chosen the same route. Possibly with C4.

[Edited on 4-10-2015 by 4x4abc]

motoged - 4-9-2015 at 05:09 PM

C4 ???!!!!

Blowed up real good.... :biggrin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUtdXzBSVaU

4x4abc - 4-9-2015 at 05:40 PM

and before someone asks - no, I did not take pictures of the $$$$$ country retreats. It's none of my business.

Archie - 4-9-2015 at 06:09 PM

Those bulldozed roads you saw, they are called "brechas cortafuego"and their function is to stop spreading wildfires and serve as roads for the forest firefighter crews, thats also funded by the government and gives employment to locals.

The gates are there to control access and help stop poachers, because thats a zone of mating and transit for bighorn sheep, mule deer and cougars. Also there have been reports thats a zone for drug traffic and there were some growers in the canyons.




4x4abc - 4-9-2015 at 06:15 PM

I know how brechas cortafuegos look like - these were no fire breaks

Rancho Arroyo Grande, 1955

David K - 5-6-2015 at 09:08 AM



From Howard Gulick, 11-25-55

Emerson - 5-6-2015 at 09:36 AM

The quality makes it look like it was taken yesterday.
Great pics.

mtgoat666 - 5-6-2015 at 10:46 AM

theft and vandalism and increased offroading have brought undesirable elements of civilization to many rural areas of baja. unfortunately, that means local people are now fencing off many old roads. these roads are not really "public" thoroughfares, just old roads to ranches,... perhaps the only people with rights to these roads are local ranches that have informal or formal easement rights

unfortunately, if offroaders cut locks, disrespect gates/fences/signs, the remaining public access will disappear.

a theme repeated all over: a few offroaders often spoil everything for everyone else

4x4abc - 5-6-2015 at 10:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
theft and vandalism and increased offroading have brought undesirable elements of civilization to many rural areas of baja. unfortunately, that means local people are now fencing off many old roads. these roads are not really "public" thoroughfares, just old roads to ranches,... perhaps the only people with rights to these roads are local ranches that have informal or formal easement rights

unfortunately, if offroaders cut locks, disrespect gates/fences/signs, the remaining public access will disappear.

a theme repeated all over: a few offroaders often spoil everything for everyone else


why do you say "a few offroaders"? It's not just a few - most of them behave badly. After almost 30 years on the Rubicon Trail and in Baja, I can tell you it's not the 5%. It's most of us.

wessongroup - 5-6-2015 at 10:59 AM

Thanks 4x4abc ... your honesty is refreshing

[Edited on 5-6-2015 by wessongroup]

Emerson - 5-6-2015 at 01:06 PM

Yesterday I tried a different approach on a upcoming trip, I investigated the ranch owners, called them up front and asked permission to go thru their roads.

Talking with the ranch owners helped, I clearly stated our group intensions and auto-charged myself with the responsibility of the group behaviour and actions; after I ID’d myself and the members of the group, they agreed, at least by phone; will see next Friday if the green light is effective all the way.

And yes, they are not happy with us, but we are not the biggest of their worries, theres another key thing that pushed more locked fences; Pot growers; big time activity.

A couple of years back, the scenario of a rancher arriving in his property and finding he was locked out, with pot already planted in the ranch, overtaken without notice, was not uncommon. Ugly scenarios like these, together with vandalism and our overall 4wheeling finesse, made the ranchers take these measures, honestly, I don't blame them.

Now that the pot activity has been reduced, and most of the ranchos have watchmen 24/7, we just need to behave differently, gaining their trust for the sake of this hobby; things like reducing speed on the roads, identifying yourself upon finding someone in the ranch, closing the gates behind you, no trash policy and threading lightly may just maybe help prevent further locked gates.

David K - 5-6-2015 at 04:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Emerson  
Yesterday I tried a different approach on a upcoming trip, I investigated the ranch owners, called them up front and asked permission to go thru their roads.

Talking with the ranch owners helped, I clearly stated our group intensions and auto-charged myself with the responsibility of the group behaviour and actions; after I ID’d myself and the members of the group, they agreed, at least by phone; will see next Friday if the green light is effective all the way.

And yes, they are not happy with us, but we are not the biggest of their worries, theres another key thing that pushed more locked fences; Pot growers; big time activity.

A couple of years back, the scenario of a rancher arriving in his property and finding he was locked out, with pot already planted in the ranch, overtaken without notice, was not uncommon. Ugly scenarios like these, together with vandalism and our overall 4wheeling finesse, made the ranchers take these measures, honestly, I don't blame them.

Now that the pot activity has been reduced, and most of the ranchos have watchmen 24/7, we just need to behave differently, gaining their trust for the sake of this hobby; things like reducing speed on the roads, identifying yourself upon finding someone in the ranch, closing the gates behind you, no trash policy and threading lightly may just maybe help prevent further locked gates.


Thank you Emerson, you are a very good Nomad to help keep this peninsula open that was once known as... The Land of Hardly Any Fences!

It is like Close Encounters of the Third Kind... we are driven to go there, explore, connect with the land. Baja calls to me constantly! My mashed potatoes turn into Baja maps!

In November, 1952... Arroyo Grande & Pole Line Road

David K - 5-7-2015 at 01:45 PM

From the April, 1953 Desert Magazine, page 10:
...
Before sun-up on November 22 we
crossed through the international gate
at Mexicali. With more than 60,000
Mexicans now residing in the Mexican
municipality this has become one of
the most important gateways between
the United States and Mexico.

We rolled along the newly paved
highway that connects Mexicali with
the fishing village of San Felipe, 140
miles away on the Gulf of California.
At 28 miles from Mexicali we stopped
at La Puerta to fill our gas tanks.
Since hundreds of Americans now
motor along this road every week, U.S.
dollars are no less negotiable than
Mexican pesos—and the cost of gasoline
is about the same as on the California
side of the border.

Fifteen miles beyond La Puerta is
El Mayor where many American
sportsmen go in their trailers and
spend their vacation days fishing in
the Hardy River, which really is an
estuary of the gulf. The Cocopah
range of mountains parallels the road
on the west.

Below El Mayor the road is constructed
for several miles along the top of a
causeway which extends across the flood
basin where water once backed in from
the delta and lled the inland sea known as
Laguna Salada. Here we left the paved road
and followed an unimproved trail across
the new dry floor of the Laguna.

Our destination was now visible.
Arroyo Grande is many miles wide
at its entrance—a broad valley tributary
to the Laguna Salada basin, it
extends in a southerly direction between
the Sierra Pinta on the east and
the Sierra Tinaja on the west.

We continued along an unimproved
and winding desert trail through ironwood,
palo verde and smoke trees for
24 miles, bearing always to the south
and coming finally to a telephone pole
line which crosses the arroyo at right
angles. This telephone, now abandoned,
was built by the U. S. armed
forces during World War II, to connect
San Felipe with Ensenada on the
Pacific coast. It was feared that Japanese
submarines might establish contact
with secret agents by way of the
Gulf of California, and this communication
line was deemed necessary for
the national security.

Where this military phone line
crosses the Arroyo Grande another
great dry watercourse comes in from
the west as a tributary. This is the
Arroyo Jaque'el.

Continuing upstream along the Arroyo
Grande dry channel the mountains
soon began to close in and our
broad arroyo became a high-walled
gorge. This is the beginning of Arroyo
Grande proper. Beyond this point we
continued for another 22.7 miles before
the gorge became too narrow...



* The article mentions crossing the Pole Line road, so the map was made thinking it was a straight run accross the desert... it actually follows Arroyo Jaque'el (Jaquegel).


Read the full story, see the photos: http://mydesertmagazine.com/files/195304-DesertMagazine-1953...

[Edited on 5-7-2015 by David K]

Mike Kay - 10-11-2015 at 10:11 PM

Thanks for posting that article. Sometime about 1987 or so i found a copy of that issue of Desert Magazine at a garage sale in Palm Springs. Within weeks of reading about it, we decided to go drive it. Using the pics of the entrance to Arroyo Grande that went with that article to navigate we found the entrance, turned off Pole Line Road cross country a bit and made our way. It was a breeze to drive up the narrow canyon. We stopped for lunch, continued on with only 2-3 little rock step ups. There was no evidence that anyone had driven it. Eventually we found the well abandoned rancho Arroyo Grande, took the sharp left turn up and out of the canyon and made our way towards Hwy 3. Even in the late '80's that ranch near the highway was odd. They had a working dairy, with lots of delivered alfalfa and a nice house, in the middle of nowhere. It was kinda sketchy. This was right when drugs started swamping baja, i didnt stop, kept driving right past the house (i speak spanish, have lived in baja, and almost always stop and say hello). We got to the gate and it was, even then. locked. One of the first locked gates i had ever found in remote baja. We found a way around maybe 1/2 mile to the east (it is now very heavily fenced-ive checked many times over the years). Anyway i just wanted to say thanks for posting that article, it brings back memories from my baja exploring youth. If anyone knows how to get in touch with the owners of the ranch, please PM me. Thinking of doing a run up Arroyo Grande on our next big baja trip.

David K - 10-12-2015 at 08:52 AM

Welcome to Nomad Mike Kay! Thank you for sharing your history of the area.

If you have any other off road adventures to tell us about, we are in need of some true Baja adventure that has no connection with paved roads or tequila drinking in a resort! LOL