BajaNomad - Who's getting a Telsla Power Wall?

I am definitely interested. Elon Musk is a visionary who can make things happen, he may be the Thomas Edison or Henry Ford of our time.

He is certainly preparing for the future --- we were quite surprised when they installed a car battery station in Lone Pine by the Movie Museum --- out here in nowhere.

Pompano - 5-2-2015 at 10:04 AM

I've been keeping an eye and an ear open to this developing new battery technology for a while now. Should lend itself well to all homes...on and off grid. Will be watching it's progress carefully.

mtgoat666 - 5-2-2015 at 10:22 AM

I am definitely interested. Elon Musk is a visionary who can make things happen, he may be the Thomas Edison or Henry Ford of our time.

Edison or ford? Maybe. Mixed in with a little Popeil and a bit of Silicon Valley tech-gadget hucksterism.

Batteries are interesting, but there are huge environmental costs of manufacturing batteries, and they have a short life span. Never yet seen a battery that will last decades,... In reading the press this week, no one mentioned battery life and life cycle cost,... Until they mention that, I smell hucksters!

El Jefe - 5-2-2015 at 10:57 AM

Somewhere in the literature or whatever I read that they had a ten year guarantee. I'm not going to take the time to re-read it all. Somebody can look it up.

Anyhow, this excites me. I have been hoping that some good tech would arrive before I have to replace my ten year old Rolls batteries. I've already had one fail and it cost me 1600 dollars to get a new one to my place once I paid import duty etc.

So something like this to replace all twelve of those lead acid relics would be awesome. I too wonder though about raw materials availability etc. I imagine that they will be recyclable to a degree. We shall see.

[Edited on 5-2-2015 by El Jefe]

Russ - 5-2-2015 at 11:16 AM

I just read some stuff on these and promising as they appear there are others that are working on electrical storage devices too. Telsla is building a huge manufacturing plant and it was mentioned they too are working on something less expensive. I'm thinking in 5 years or so there will be few lead acid batteries running our homes. Well, I hope so anyway. :!:

ncampion - 5-2-2015 at 01:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

I am definitely interested. Elon Musk is a visionary who can make things happen, he may be the Thomas Edison or Henry Ford of our time.

Actually there is a rechargeable battery that lasts decades that was first invented by Thomas Edison around 1900. I believe that there are still some of these batteries in use today after many decades of use. I considered them as replacements for my off grid solar home but they have a low charge efficiency (take too long to charge) to fit into a daily solar charge cycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93iron_battery

I was wondering if traditional charge controllers from Outback or Xantrex can accommodate the different charging characteristics of the Li ion batteries.

Russ - 5-2-2015 at 02:17 PM

Don't know about charging with the controller but the probably could be charged thru your inverter's ac??

[rquote=I was wondering if traditional charge controllers from Outback or Xantrex can accommodate the different charging characteristics of the Li ion batteries.[/rquote]

wessongroup - 5-2-2015 at 02:27 PM

Have been waiting for something along these lines ..

rts551 - 5-2-2015 at 03:00 PM

It is being stated on another forum it has its own inverter/controller.

durrelllrobert - 5-2-2015 at 03:25 PM

Nicola Tesla, who I assume the current Tesla Co. is named for worked for Thomas Edison when the light bulb was invented and was at odds with him about wheather to use DC or AC current to provide electricity to homes. Edison wanted DC and Tesla wanted AC which eventually won out. Now today's Tesla wants to take DC power and convert it to AC. :?:

wessongroup - 5-2-2015 at 04:20 PM

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

Would appear the inverter is an add on ...

Still not a bad deal ... wouldn't think this guy would be putting out "junk" ... just saying

But, of course there may be something which others may know ... all ears

And would certainly like hear from those that are "users" of current solar systems in operation at this time

In field applications are the best to learn from ...

It is interesting that a combination of "both" would appear to be a very excellent solution ... DC and AC working together to produce energy from the Sun ... very excellent news

btw ... NOTHING lasts forever ... :biggrin:

[Edited on 5-2-2015 by wessongroup]

monoloco - 5-2-2015 at 06:43 PM

Musk said in the press event that the battery comes with it's own DC to DC converter, I assume that means a charge controller, most of the other LiPo batteries come with their own battery management circuitry I'm just trying to figure out how many L-16 it would take to equal a 10 kw Tesla battery.

wessongroup - 5-2-2015 at 07:24 PM

Will say ... 200 lbs. would make it a bit difficult for the "individual" installer by him and/or herself ... nothing that couldn't be worked around ... but, it is a bit heavy

Russ - 5-2-2015 at 07:32 PM

Quote "I'm just trying to figure out how many L-16 it would take to equal a 10 kw Tesla battery."
Me too. For my limited use I have 8- L-16's at 120lbs. each. And they do not like summer here.

ncampion - 5-2-2015 at 08:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Russ

Quote "I'm just trying to figure out how many L-16 it would take to equal a 10 kw Tesla battery."
Me too. For my limited use I have 8- L-16's at 120lbs. each. And they do not like summer here.

So here’s the math. Batteries are usually rated in amp-hours (@20 amp discharge rate) The standard L-16s are rated at 375 ah and you if you consider a maximum depth of discharge(dod) of 50% (which you don’t want to do every day with L-16s) you get 375 x 0.5 x 48volts = 9,000 kwh per day. This assumes a bank of eight L-15 batteries in series. They say the Telsa battery has 7 kwh per day capacity. They don’t specify what the acceptable dod is for this battery, but typically Li ion batteries can be safely discharged very low, so I believe that the 7 kwh figure is “usable” capacity. So to replace your L-16s you would need two of the Tesla batteries and you would have a bit more capacity. The problem still remains as to how to effectively recharge them using standard solar panels and available charge controllers. I would love to see a “breakthrough” battery become available for off grid use as the battery is still the weakest link in any solar power system.

wessongroup - 5-2-2015 at 11:10 PM

Thanks much ..

Bob and Susan - 5-3-2015 at 06:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Russ

Quote "I'm just trying to figure out how many L-16 it would take to equal a 10 kw Tesla battery."
Me too. For my limited use I have 8- L-16's at 120lbs. each. And they do not like summer here.

russ its NOT your batteries...its the wire coming downfrom the solar panels...too small...I bigger stranded wire will give you MORE current

in the summer when its hot there's a huge resistance in the wire that charges the batteries...heat causes resistance

run a bigger line down

as for batteries being the weakest link...maybe
but an inverter is like a lightbulb...it could go out at any time

all the "stuff" is the weakest link...
best thing is to be "on-grid" for sure...don't let anyone tell you its better to live "off-grid"...it isn't
but its possible

wessongroup - 5-3-2015 at 10:50 AM

Thanks again ... knew some good feed back would be coming from those that operate systems ..

You guys are a great source of "practical" info .. all the time

"The prospect of cheap solar panels combined with powerful batteries has been a source of significant anxiety in the utility sector. In 2013, the Edison Electric Institute, the trade group for investor-owned electric companies, issued a report warning that disruption was coming. "One can imagine a day when battery storage technology or micro turbines could allow customers to be electric grid independent," the report said, likening the speed of the coming transition to the one from landlines to cellphones 10 years ago. Suddenly regulated monopolies are finding themselves in competition with their own customers."

http://www.theverge.com/2015/2/13/8033691/why-teslas-battery...

[Edited on 5-3-2015 by wessongroup]

Sweetwater - 5-4-2015 at 09:37 AM

Next door neighbor is installing a full system in an older home dating back to the '60's. It's 100% financed, payment is 20% higher than current Electricity bill. Payment drops back to current level in 6 years and he owns the system in 10 years. The electric utility attempted to pass a user fee in this years legislature for folks who are solar, it failed. I understand that there are currently incentives to go solar but expect them to fade away soon due to utility political pressure and increasing number of users. Right now, they have to take the overproduction back into the grid and credit the owner. We have a professional soccer stadium that is converting to solar as well, the panels are mounted to give shade and weather relief to cars in the parking lots. The conflict between solar and our current coal fired electrical utility is becoming obvious. I'll be voting with my pocketbook for sustainable, renewable solar when the engineer completes my home analysis.

daveB - 5-5-2015 at 09:29 AM

RV full- timers we know during winters in Southern California traded off a fifth wheel they had the previous year with its' solar panels and a wndmill for a large diesel pusher and in place of the truck, an electric car. This winter he sold the DP's generator, equipped the RV's roof with even more solar panels, and with a lot of work and equipment, is able to do without buying gas , diesel, or electricity, while parked for the winter. He recharges his car from his RV. His new car will give him an workable range to drive out for supplies at stores some 80 miles away. Within the park (dry camp area) he and his wife ride around on three wheel bicycles with electric motors for assist, a modification he did himself.

StuckSucks - 5-6-2015 at 10:58 AM

YouTube: Elon Musk Debuts the Tesla Powerwall

motoged - 5-6-2015 at 12:36 PM

Some money numbers and facts to consider...

http://www.wimp.com/tesla-source/

Mexitron - 5-6-2015 at 01:20 PM

Elon was kind of selling it like one battery would do a normal house but after checking the amps/volts I don't think just one battery will run a power tool( 8.6 amp peak output)...but I'm no electrician, maybe I'm missing something.

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

[Edited on 5-6-2015 by Mexitron]

ncampion - 5-6-2015 at 02:02 PM

Elon was kind of selling it like one battery would do a normal house but after checking the amps/volts I don't think just one battery will run a power tool( 8.6 amp peak output)...but I'm no electrician, maybe I'm missing something.

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

[Edited on 5-6-2015 by Mexitron]

That battery runs at 450 volts, so the 8.6 amps is about 2600 watts. Still not a lot of power. At 450 volts that lets out all the current off grid charge controllers and inverters for use with this battery. Must be special made equipment just for that high voltage, although I think that some grid-tie inverters run at high voltage, not sure.

David K - 5-6-2015 at 03:12 PM

Just spoke with a solar power consultant... asked about this Tesla thing... he said it doesn't exist, the factory isn't built yet, and it is just a feeler for a concept product (seeking investors/ stock sales). True perhaps???

Mexitron - 5-6-2015 at 03:29 PM

David--on the Tesla site it has a "Reserve" window to take tentative orders for "deliveries this summer", so the skepticism quotient is a little high-- your consultant is right, no "giga"factory yet and there was no box for my credit card number to actually buy one yet. But the response has been very positive so far so that might be enough to move forward at least on a small scale. He'll need a huge chunk of dough to build the gigafactory in Nevada so I can understand the baby steps....and at least it will be assembled in the U.S if not entirely manufactured here (???).

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

wessongroup - 5-6-2015 at 04:23 PM

Thanks ... this kinda stuff is good info ... IMHO

Photobum - 5-6-2015 at 04:54 PM

2600 watts is not much....my air-conditioning unit on my Airstream needs 3500 just to start. And once you start looking loads with microwave ovens, coffee machines, and oh, hairdryers...well you don't have a lot left over....

Most houses are going to need a minimum of two Powerwalls, and then the money decision goes back towards the grid.

The shelf life question is big....warrantying for ten years sends a message, but if you look at battery usage in phones and computers, what is promised versus what is reality you will have to wonder.

Your mileage may vary.....

[Edited on 5-6-2015 by Photobum]

norte - 5-6-2015 at 06:18 PM

Glad to see that the industry is moving forward....even faster than the naysayers. It will mature soon.

Mexitron - 5-6-2015 at 06:34 PM

Wonder what the comparative cost is to have a little electrolysis system to use solar/wind to charge a hydrogen fuel cell instead of a standard battery. Less heavy metals to deal with too.

ncampion - 5-6-2015 at 06:56 PM

I have always liked Flywheel Storage Systems. High efficiency, quick recharge time and decades long life span.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

wessongroup - 5-6-2015 at 08:22 PM

Thanks great info ...

"Costs of a fully installed flywheel UPS are about $330 per kilowatt[30] In combination with a diesel generator set or integrated design, it supplies continuous power as long as there is fuel."

redhilltown - 5-6-2015 at 11:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT

I am definitely interested. Elon Musk is a visionary who can make things happen, he may be the Thomas Edison or Henry Ford of our time.

He is certainly preparing for the future --- we were quite surprised when they installed a car battery station in Lone Pine by the Movie Museum --- out here in nowhere.

Diana: Lone Pine is not nowhere!! The Owens Valley is my home away from home!!!!!!!!!!!! (and Saline Valley....and Panamint Valley...and Death Valley...and Eureka Valley...)

DavidT - 5-7-2015 at 12:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT

I am definitely interested. Elon Musk is a visionary who can make things happen, he may be the Thomas Edison or Henry Ford of our time.

He is certainly preparing for the future --- we were quite surprised when they installed a car battery station in Lone Pine by the Movie Museum --- out here in nowhere.

Lone Pine is in between somewhere and somewhere
The charging stations are distributed by the range of the cars, a 30 minute recharge in Lone Pine will get you to the next "destination"
In the meantime you've got 30 minutes to relax, and you are right by the Movie Museum

bajabuddha - 5-7-2015 at 04:20 AM

Just noticed this on the web; thought i'd throw it in the mix.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/teslas-new-battery-...

mtgoat666 - 5-7-2015 at 07:26 AM

I thought tesla was going to build cars with quickly replaceable batteries, so a fill up did not require waiting for charge, just long enough to swap batteries,...
That's the the problem with e cars, not practical for long trips,... And most people don't want to maintain multiple cars, one for city, one for country, etc.

[Edited on 5-7-2015 by mtgoat666]

Tesla's New Battery Doesn't Work That Well With Solar

Russ - 5-7-2015 at 07:27 AM

Something I just read:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-06/tesla-s-ne...

mtgoat666 - 5-7-2015 at 07:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Russ

Something I just read:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-06/tesla-s-ne...

You should clarify it says nothing about technical, just says that it does not make sense to sell battery when the industry is selling people grid tie for net metering. Seems if you read between the lines they will start marketing batteries when net metering economic preference disappears.
Net metering as currently priced in California is great, but it is just another wealth transfer from less wealthy to the more wealthy... Bound to end when the downtrodden wake up and realize what is happening,...

P.s. Full disclosure, I have grid tie PV with net metering,...

Forgive my ignorance

durrelllrobert - 5-7-2015 at 09:22 AM

But if I use the formula Watts = Amps x Volts then 8.6 amps x 450 volts = 3870 watts
and if I go backwards starting with 2600 watts at 450 volts I get 5.7 amps.

WHAT AM I MISSING?

Maybe I just answered my own question

durrelllrobert - 5-7-2015 at 09:41 AM

Specs state:
Efficiency
92% round-trip DC efficiency

Power
2.0 kW continuous, 3.3 kW peak
Voltage
350 – 450 volts

Current
5.8 amp nominal, 8.6 amp peak output

so if If I use the 350V and .92 efficiency numbers with 5.8 A I get a current draw of 1,876 watts

mtgoat666 - 5-7-2015 at 09:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by durrelllrobert

But if I use the formula Watts = Amps x Volts then 8.6 amps x 450 volts = 3870 watts
and if I go backwards starting with 2600 watts at 450 volts I get 5.7 amps.

WHAT AM I MISSING?

an inverter. you cant run your television set off 450v DC

ncampion - 5-7-2015 at 11:26 AM

Yeah, the specs given on the web site used "ranges" for both volts and amps, so when I did my calcs, I kinda split the difference. Any yes and battery system must have an inverter to power a home. It will have to be an inverter made for this battery due to the unusual charging and voltage specs.

msteve1014 - 5-7-2015 at 03:56 PM

There is a very large "fudge factor" built in there some where.

bezzell - 5-13-2015 at 08:12 AM

Reeks of 'Jevon's Paradox' (look it up ... (maybe Jenov's Paradox?))

( http://kunstler.com/clusterflock-nation/muskular-magic/ )

CortezBlue - 5-13-2015 at 09:55 AM

Libby or Tea bag, this technology, or the attempt to produce it, is very cool.

But in order to get through to the conservatives, like me, is to produce that same video and discuss the TCI and ROI. How much will it cost and how long will it take to pay it back. What will it run? Here in AZ if I could have enough juice to run my A/C during the summer afternoons, that would save a ton of dough.

Also, with our billing structure we pay way less per KwH at night than day. could we charge the battery at night using the grid and run it in the day?

Very cool stuff and something to ponder.

Before we get the flamers, yes I know it is DC and we would charge it with AC that has to be converted and it wouldn't be efficient, yada yada

StuckSucks - 5-13-2015 at 10:13 AM

Also, with our billing structure we pay way less per KwH at night than day. could we charge the battery at night using the grid and run it in the day?

Exactly where he's going: fill the battery at night when electricity is lower-priced, then run off the battery during the day. Musk also wants to use electric cars as storage devices.

The new Tesla battery mega factory is supposed to be built east of Reno.

Ateo - 5-13-2015 at 10:14 AM

A great balanced analysis of this Tesla announcement can be found at the 31 minute 40 second mark here:

[Edited on 5-13-2015 by Ateo]

ncampion - 5-13-2015 at 10:39 AM

Also, with our billing structure we pay way less per KwH at night than day. could we charge the battery at night using the grid and run it in the day?

Very cool stuff and something to ponder. yada yada

Keep in mind that if this practice came into widespread use, the electric company would adjust their rate structure to increase rates at night, which would now be the "high demand" period.

This speaks to bezell's Jevon's Paradox

Trueheart - 5-13-2015 at 05:57 PM

Tesla's "gigafactory", just east of Reno in Storey County, is under construction. The selection of northern NV for their factory may have been (and likely was) influenced by their partner Panasonic, wanting to be geographically close to a large source of lithium .... at the north end of the state.

The $1.3B in tax incentives to be supplied to Tesla had some influence over geographic selection as well.

Elon Musk is quite a "marketeer" ..... at all levels.

CortezBlue - 5-13-2015 at 06:01 PM

I actually don't think it will get that far. I think the lobbyists will put some kind of tax or tariff on the technology.
Here in AZ they offered a watt for watt exchange and little by little they are changing the program. Transfer fees, seasonal adjustments and the latestis a $50 per month fee if you have solar grid tie.

It is just like any form of energy, if someone figures out how to make it cheaper, i.e., fracking, then the oil companies are forced to lower global pricing. You know, that supply and demand thing

wessongroup - 5-13-2015 at 07:12 PM

Spot on .. Cortez

mtgoat666 - 5-13-2015 at 07:36 PM