BajaNomad

International Conference on Climate Change Keynote

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gnukid - 6-11-2015 at 03:58 PM



International Conference on Climate Change Keynote
6/11/15 Keynote
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/63518954

wessongroup - 6-11-2015 at 04:32 PM

Interesting "take" on things ... I'll stick with this

Oil consumption oil vs CO2� respectively



http://www.api.org/statistics/



http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Which is "empirical" evidence developed by industry and science

China??

bajaguy - 6-11-2015 at 05:11 PM

How much fossil fuel does China use and what is China's C02 output as compared to other countries??

David K - 6-11-2015 at 05:39 PM

Good one, only in capitalist countries does our civilization change the climate. Communist regimes get a pass each time!

Climate changes naturally, always has and always will... The graphs are only showing CO2 estimates based on ?? science ?? WHERE are the temperature graphs...??? You know the ones for the SAME period of years that show the earth is still in a cool period, historically, and that the norm is much warmer! For the skyrocket CO2 graph to not be paired with a temperature graph for the same years, it is obviously meant to scare folks and get more funding!

What is the oil production graph supposed to do? Get us to ride a horse? Stop making pacemakers and everything else with plastic?

Bajaboy - 6-11-2015 at 06:59 PM

Funny how so many deniers on this board turn to the same climate scientists when a hurricane is forming. Reminds me of those who pick and choose from the Bible....:(

woody with a view - 6-11-2015 at 07:15 PM

I just wonder what was going on 650,001 years ago. do the Govt funded scientists need more $ to get a solid grip on THAT data?

:?:

[Edited on 6-12-2015 by woody with a view]

gnukid - 6-11-2015 at 10:37 PM

Interesting Panel 1: Climate Science:

There is no north american or US congressional senate support for any climate change legislation or carbon tax which has no demonstrable affect on reduction of pollution.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/63524134

Panel 7: Climate Policy and National Security
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/63543030



[Edited on 6-12-2015 by gnukid]

bonanza bucko - 6-12-2015 at 07:35 AM

Well it would have been a lot better if the keynote had asked all the "scientists" there if they had "consensus" on The Great Lakes!
What dug 'em: GLACIERS! Wow, that's right. Where are they now? MELTED! Ok so what made 'em melt? GLOBAL WARMING!
So what caused that? You think it was Cave Men barbecuing too many Mastodons or maybe too much Sabre Tooth Tiger flatulence? Nope...it just happens every now and then.

BTW: The idea that there can be "consensus" among scientists on any subject is stupid...it doesn't happen....science requires skepticism and inquiry and not dogmatic positions. That is what produced the Spanish Inquisition. "Global Warming" which has been renamed "Climate Change" because the globe hasn't warmed in 17 years and not much more than .01 C in a long, long time, is not a science but a political religion that is the home of people who used to be called Soviets or communists who love to control thought and action and build tyranny with themselves in charge.

Wake up!

BB

David K - 6-12-2015 at 07:40 AM

I just love it when 'thinking' Nomads post instead of those that post up government and leftist links! Good morning BB, it is a beautiful day, even if the 'end' in near (or not)!

SFandH - 6-12-2015 at 08:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
I just love it when 'thinking' Nomads post instead of those that post up government and leftist links! Good morning BB, it is a beautiful day, even if the 'end' in near (or not)!


So people that have an opinion other than yours on climate change, and there are many, are not thinking? That is the implication of what you said.

Why must you insult people that have an opinion other than yours?

[Edited on 6-12-2015 by SFandH]

David K - 6-12-2015 at 08:40 AM

SFandH, not what I said or meant... BB typed his opinion and didn't just post a link or a graph. He thought about something and shared it.

I am not here to insult anyone, the closest might be to retort back to the numerous insults I get here for sharing my thoughts. Have you defended me ever?

I just wish you kids and grown ups would trust your own eyes instead of some bureaucrat thousands of miles away, who has never been to a beach repeatedly to see the homes, businesses, palm trees, etc. that were just inches above high tide 50 years ago, and still are today!

'Chicken Little' was not taught to any of you? Fear is a great motivator, but let it be fear of something real, not projected or guessed...

bonanza bucko - 6-12-2015 at 08:50 AM

We are in severe danger of allowing dogma to dictate public policy. I think it may be worthwhile to remember one of the last times that happened in the late 1930s when Phrenology (the study of bumps on the human head) and measurements of facial characteristics were used by the N-zis to decide who was going to be "Aryan" and who was going to be enslaved or murdered.

That was "scientific consensus" in Germany then and lots and lots of normal, honest everyday Germans said nothing against it; they believed their leaders and marched behind them.

We can't let pseudo science and dogma allow people who think this through to be called "deniers." That is dangerous and an insult to human intelligence and scientific inquiry both of which reject dogma.

BB

SFandH - 6-12-2015 at 09:00 AM

Thanks for stating your opinion without insulting those who disagree with it.

SFandH - 6-12-2015 at 09:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
SFandH, not what I said or meant... BB typed his opinion and didn't just post a link or a graph.


Oh, so people who post just graphs and links to information are not thinking?

Like gnukid, the original poster?

[Edited on 6-12-2015 by SFandH]

gnukid - 6-12-2015 at 09:20 AM

�First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.�


― Mahatma Gandhi

motoged - 6-12-2015 at 09:37 AM

Oh, here we go again with a "thinker/non-thinker", "left-right", and " "facts vs. opinion" circular thread......:rolleyes:

In the meantime....it's happening all over the planet.....not really related to communism (the 50's boogeyman).....

woody with a view - 6-12-2015 at 09:50 AM

all valid info above, but haven't humans been walking upright for over 6 million years? if we know that much why does all of the expert climate data only go back 650,000 years?

and does it really matter? we'll all be dead in 50 years anyway and I bet the planet will go right on spinning! future generations can debate if 10 billion people were the reason for the warmth or not.

vgabndo - 6-12-2015 at 01:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
SFandH, not what I said or meant... BB typed his opinion and didn't just post a link or a graph. He thought about something and shared it.

I am not here to insult anyone, the closest might be to retort back to the numerous insults I get here for sharing my thoughts. Have you defended me ever?

I just wish you kids and grown ups would trust your own eyes instead of some bureaucrat thousands of miles away, who has never been to a beach repeatedly to see the homes, businesses, palm trees, etc. that were just inches above high tide 50 years ago, and still are today!

'Chicken Little' was not taught to any of you? Fear is a great motivator, but let it be fear of something real, not projected or guessed...


At least you are CONSISTENTLY delusional. I kind of like how you have now condensed-down the vast majority of the world's scientists to "some bereaurat (sic) thousands of miles away". If only the world's problems were as simple as a children's book. I judge your day will be blissful.

Bajahowodd - 6-12-2015 at 04:38 PM

The vast majority of deniers of climate change are fundamentalist Christians welcoming the end times.

How about a survey of Nomads Who agree with this ridiculous crap:

wessongroup - 6-12-2015 at 04:42 PM

Additional "ice core" samples have been obtained ... which now can be taken back to 850,000 years ...

No change in the findings ...

Assume they� want to get as many samples as possible ... given the rapid rate of ice "melt" at both poles, at this time :biggrin::biggrin:

David K - 6-12-2015 at 06:04 PM

The only deniers are those that:

Go to Concepcion Bay's El Coyote and stand by the palm trees on the beach... and the same palm is still above the sea, as it has been since the photos taken of it in the 1950's.

Are quick to point to lack of ice at the north pole, but conveniently don't credit the increase of ice at the south pole!

Need to flip a graph upside down or to change the data to make their argument...

and think that man is so mighty and powerful, he can change the weather! Good luck with that!

wessongroup - 6-12-2015 at 08:38 PM

Big Shelves Of Antarctic Ice Melting Faster Than Scientists Thought

http://www.npr.org/2015/03/26/395379216/big-shelves-of-antar...

Arctic Ice Melting Faster and Earlier With Dire Results

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/arctic-ice-melting-faster...

Not sure which "poles" you are referencing ... I'm talking about the north and south poles of this planet, at this time

All things change ... its call evolution and "it" takes no prisoners :biggrin::biggrin:

Here's a good one on atmospheric change

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoclimatology

Some may wish to consider man's ability to kill off species ... as a negative impact .. as some are very important to our existence on the planet ... Like the Honey Bee ... there are other critters which have importance in the "web of life" of which we are part of ... on this planet :):)

Just depends on which cycle ya fall into on the planet ... in time :biggrin::biggrin:

[Edited on 6-13-2015 by wessongroup]

gnukid - 6-12-2015 at 10:27 PM

"The Right Climate Stuff"

Video of presentation at ICCC 10 6/12/15

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/63606452

wessongroup - 6-13-2015 at 01:42 AM

An interesting find by the Air Force ... 50 years ago

And they were only trying to get their missiles to work

http://earththeoperatorsmanual.com/segment/4

Don't think the Air Force had any ax to grind on this one ... they just wanted the missiles to work and found out something very interesting ... :):)

bonanza bucko - 6-13-2015 at 07:29 AM

OK...I got it; there is "climate change." But nobody has eschewed their cool aid long enough to explain the Great Lakes and how man(or Mastodon) caused that.

Sure there might be some "global warming" (although that hasn't happened in 17 years) and sure there might be more CO2 in the atmosphere but most of that gets sucked up by plants which produce O2 with it and nobody has explained how the changes were caused by man and not caused by nature which has done that a lot of times in the past.

You gottta have a conceit a lot larger than your humility to get all exercised by "man caused climate change."

You ever hear about the mosquito floating down the river on his back with a hard on yelling, "RAISE THE DRAW BRIDGE!"

BB :-)

mtgoat666 - 6-13-2015 at 07:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The only deniers are those that:

Go to Concepcion Bay's El Coyote and stand by the palm trees on the beach... and the same palm is still above the sea, as it has been since the photos taken of it in the 1950's.


Palm trees! :lol:

Dk, you are a flocking riot! :lol:

David K - 6-13-2015 at 08:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The only deniers are those that:

Go to Concepcion Bay's El Coyote and stand by the palm trees on the beach... and the same palm is still above the sea, as it has been since the photos taken of it in the 1950's.


Palm trees! :lol:

Dk, you are a flocking riot! :lol:




1952 (Howard Gulick photo)




2012, 59 years later... no rising of the sea level more than the daily and seasonally high/low tide change variations. The length of a cigarette, as some say the oceans have risen, is not a cause for the freaking out.

Now, it really doesn't matter what any of us believe because the earth and Nature will keep on doing what it is going to do.

My gig here is only to have you deniers OPEN YOUR EYES.

Are then ice caps vanishing? Do you think driving a Prius will change that? Does giving your money to Al Gore change anything, but make him richer and you poorer? Does Al Gore spend time answering your questions or showing proof that his predictions have come true? No, he can't because he only can provide projections and predictions.



Edit:

Here they are in a 1971 guidebook cover...



[Edited on 6-13-2015 by David K]

bajabuddha - 6-13-2015 at 09:31 AM

Isn't it amazing that the forefront of the deniers are the hardline conservative right that just happen to either own or be bought and paid for by the huge corporations (mainly Big Oil and Petroleum/Coal etc) that will lose profits if forced to cut back emissions. Yes, jobs will be lost; but better that than half of Miami...... or not.....

Here's a great piece of who's running which show, and who they're afraid of now:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/angry-us-republicans-...

There are some great quotes in the article, some of which are so two-faced it's comical. Keep on keepin' on, Righty Righties. I'll even loan you one of my shovels.

DaliDali - 6-13-2015 at 09:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajabuddha  
Isn't it amazing that the forefront of the deniers are the hardline conservative right that just happen to either own or be bought and paid for by the huge corporations (mainly Big Oil and Petroleum/Coal etc) that will lose profits if forced to cut back emissions. Yes, jobs will be lost; but better that than half of Miami...... or not.....

Here's a great piece of who's running which show, and who they're afraid of now:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/angry-us-republicans-...

There are some great quotes in the article, some of which are so two-faced it's comical. Keep on keepin' on, Righty Righties. I'll even loan you one of my shovels.


And yet the palm tree in question is STILL there......STILL above water......STILL alive......
A right wing conspiracy no doubt.

SFandH - 6-13-2015 at 09:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali  
Quote: Originally posted by bajabuddha  
Isn't it amazing that the forefront of the deniers are the hardline conservative right that just happen to either own or be bought and paid for by the huge corporations (mainly Big Oil and Petroleum/Coal etc) that will lose profits if forced to cut back emissions. Yes, jobs will be lost; but better that than half of Miami...... or not.....

Here's a great piece of who's running which show, and who they're afraid of now:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/angry-us-republicans-...

There are some great quotes in the article, some of which are so two-faced it's comical. Keep on keepin' on, Righty Righties. I'll even loan you one of my shovels.


And yet the palm tree in question is STILL there......STILL above water......STILL alive......
A right wing conspiracy no doubt.



No, of course it's not a conspiracy, that's crazy. What happened is the shape of the sand bottom changed over the years enabling the bay to hold more water without a change in the shoreline.

Obviously. ;)

David K - 6-13-2015 at 09:54 AM

Thanks for the laugh SFandH! Have a great day!!

SFandH - 6-13-2015 at 09:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Thanks for the laugh SFandH! Have a great day!!


Just returning the favor. Have a blissful day.

Pompano - 6-13-2015 at 10:00 AM

I will never open another thread with 'Climate Change' in the title. Should have known better and realized that certain Nomads cannot discuss anything in a civil manner. No wonder new participation is dwindling on this forum and regulars are leaving.

This sign should go on the Baja Nomad banner...No Attitudes!

2011 9-28 ROAD TRIP KRAMER-SAN DIEGO 013.JPG - 114kB



[Edited on 6-14-2015 by Pompano]

bajabuddha - 6-13-2015 at 10:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The only angry people consistently are liberals... do they even smile?
Your hate of big oil or other 'evil' corporations motivates you to make up all these lies about climate, sea levels, but you still drive a car, use plastic, use most anything... and keep buying from these people you are told to hate... do you have a mutual fund or retirement that depends on these corporations to be successful?


I'm literally laughing my azz off at this one:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gop-rep-blames-califo...

You talk about who has a sense of humor? I know I do, 'cause I don't care who you are, that's FUNNY right there.....

BTW, I thought the storybook said the last time Mankind screwed up it rained for forty days and forty nights....... which is it? Who's lying to whom? Now you're afraid of the Pope..... :lol:

[Edited on 6-13-2015 by bajabuddha]

chuckie - 6-13-2015 at 10:14 AM

Yeah but she's right...DK sed so.....Fruit newtons he is....

David K - 6-13-2015 at 10:51 AM

You guys really need a vacation! :biggrin:

vgabndo - 6-13-2015 at 03:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The only angry people consistently are liberals... do they even smile?
Your hate of big oil or other 'evil' corporations motivates you to make up all these lies about climate, sea levels, but you still drive a car, use plastic, use most anything... and keep buying from these people you are told to hate... do you have a mutual fund or retirement that depends on these corporations to be successful?


I invite you to expand your horizons David, since this isn't Baja related you might feel more at home here. http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/

mtgoat666 - 6-13-2015 at 03:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The only deniers are those that:

Go to Concepcion Bay's El Coyote and stand by the palm trees on the beach... and the same palm is still above the sea, as it has been since the photos taken of it in the 1950's.


Palm trees! :lol:

Dk, you are a flocking riot! :lol:




1952 (Howard Gulick photo)




2012, 59 years later... no rising of the sea level more than the daily and seasonally high/low tide change variations. The length of a cigarette, as some say the oceans have risen, is not a cause for the freaking out.

Now, it really doesn't matter what any of us believe because the earth and Nature will keep on doing what it is going to do.

My gig here is only to have you deniers OPEN YOUR EYES.

Are then ice caps vanishing? Do you think driving a Prius will change that? Does giving your money to Al Gore change anything, but make him richer and you poorer? Does Al Gore spend time answering your questions or showing proof that his predictions have come true? No, he can't because he only can provide projections and predictions.



Edit:

Here they are in a 1971 guidebook cover...



[Edited on 6-13-2015 by David K]


I think someone that makes precise and accurate measurements of sea level using a documented datum can produce better sea level data than a luddite that documents sea levels using pictures of palm trees found in old tourist guidebooks.

I trust the scientific method more than the bloviating crank method!

SFandH - 6-13-2015 at 04:32 PM

Especially since the first picture was taken at high tide, the second at low tide.

DaliDali - 6-13-2015 at 04:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
Especially since the first picture was taken at high tide, the second at low tide.


Flood tide......ebb tide.....slack tide......the palm is STILL there.....STILL out of water and STILL alive.

Do a drive by and take a look for yourself. Just saying.

[Edited on 6-13-2015 by DaliDali]

Bajahowodd - 6-13-2015 at 04:58 PM

I really have a problem with people who dismiss climate change, and do not realize that the continuing worldwide population growth coupled with the steadily increasing carbon emissions are ruining the air that we breathe.

Asthma incidence is way up over 50 years ago.

I realize that we are not able to currently control the carbon emissions of emerging economies, such as China and India, but shouldn't we at least do our part here, and deal with the others down the road?

wessongroup - 6-13-2015 at 05:45 PM

Polar Bears Seen Eating Dolphins For The First Time As Seal Habitat Melts Away

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/12/polar-bears-eat-dol...

1.5 mm = 0.0590551 inches annual or over the past 50 years is equal to 2.952755 inches increase globally .. close enough for horse shoes

I don�t think most could discern a 0.0590551 inch rise in one year nor in 50 years with the naked eye � as it isn�t all that much � but, taken as a whole for the entire oceans of the planet � that rise IS "significant" ..as the earth oceans cover roughly 70% of the planet

And of that .. 2.5% is fresh water � the rest is Ocean

http://phys.org/news/2015-01-sea-larger-thought.html

and btw .. ice melt at the poles is effecting our "gravity" ... too :biggrin::biggrin:

Better hang on .. :lol::lol:

[Edited on 6-14-2015 by wessongroup]

mtgoat666 - 6-13-2015 at 08:56 PM

Why Conservative White Males Are More Likely to Be Climate Skeptics
Sociologists attempt to pin down what causes some to question the science behind global warming

By Julia Pyper and ClimateWire | October 5, 2011

U.S. Senate Committee on Environmental and Public Works
When it comes to climate change denial, not all human beings are created equal. As a recent study shows, conservative white males are less likely to believe in climate change.

"It's not surprising," said Aaron McCright, sociology professor at Michigan State University, who is a white male himself. But anecdotal evidence is not scientific, he said. "You really don't know what's going on until you crunch the numbers and find out."

Besides the trend amongst skeptics, the study also found that conservative white men who self-report a high understanding of global warming -- dubbed "confident" conservative males -- are even more likely to express climate change denial.

McCright's study, "Cool dudes: The denial of climate change among conservative white males in the United States," was published online in July and printed in the October 2011 issue of Global Environmental Change, which ranks first out of 77 journals on environmental studies.

The study has created somewhat of a buzz, said Riley Dunlap, co-author and professor of sociology at Oklahoma State University. The paper was well received in academic circles, but he admitted he was concerned about a backlash from the conservative movement. While there have not been any major outcries, the study appears to have raised a few temperatures in Chicago.

"This paper is a transparent effort to take the focus off the actual scientific debate and instead engage in race baiting, class baiting and other sociological devices to win a science argument," said James Taylor, senior fellow for environment policy at the Chicago-based Heartland Institute.

But from McCright's perspective it was important to find out to what extent the sharp debate over climate change at the elite level had trickled down into the general public in recent decades. "Within the ranks of elites, climate change denialists are overwhelmingly conservative white males," reads the report, pointing to figures like talk show host Rush Limbaugh and Marshall Institute CEO, William O'Keefe. "Does a similar pattern exist in the American public?"

'Cool Dudes,' a bloc that stands out in the crowd

McCright and Dunlap's analysis used polling data on climate change denial from 10 Gallup surveys from 2001 to 2010. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 72.4 percent of the American population reported as white in 2010, and 77.1 percent in the year 2000. This majority made it difficult to draw conclusions about the relationship between other races and climate change, said McCright, because the Gallup survey sample size was so small.

To test for the trend amongst conservative white males, the researchers compared the demographic to "all other adults." Results showed, for instance, that 29.6 percent of conservative white males believe the effects of global warming will never happen, versus 7.4 percent of other adults. In holding for "confident" conservative white males, the study showed 48.4 percent believe global warming won't happen, versus 8.6 percent of other adults.

As a point of comparison, McCright also tested the beliefs of conservative white females. He found 14.9 percent believe the effects of global warming will never happen to 29.6 percent of their male counterparts. McCright said the finding is due more to the women's political stance than their gender or race. The data on conservative white females was not published in the "Cool dudes" study.

To understand why there is a trend amongst conservative white males, the Gallup data was cross-examined with research about the "white male effect" -- the idea that white males were either more accepting of risk or less risk averse than the rest of the public.

The white male effect could stem from the notion that, historically, white males have faced fewer obstacles in life, said McCright. But another school of thought sees the adoption of risk tied to personal values. "It has to do with their identity as an in-group," he said. "Something that would challenge the status quo is something [conservative white males] want to shun."

Climate change, a challenge to identity?

According to the literature on "identity protective cognition," people believe messages coming from the people they identify with most and ignore messages that are contrarian, Dunlap said. While all groups have a tendency to do this, he said, in the case the climate change, conservative white males are especially likely to exhibit this self-protecting characteristic.

McCright says, up to 40 percent of all white males in the study sample believe in hierarchy, are more trusting of authority and are more conservative. Conservative white males' motivation to ignore a certain risk -- the risk of climate change in this case -- therefore, has to do with defending the status of their identity tied to the white male establishment.

This result is bolstered by the Yale University "Global Warming's Six Americas" report for May. The study found that none of the "dismissive" group -- those who don't think the climate is changing or want legislation -- believe global warming will harm the United States in 50 years. The dismissive group also skews male and conservative, said "Six Americas" co-author, Edward Maibach, director of the George Mason University Center for Climate Change Communication.

bonanza bucko - 6-14-2015 at 07:12 AM

OK, Suppose that we accept "global warming" as a threat at sometime in the future.

What do you want us to do? Please be specific; give us a list of actions we must take now.

BB

mtgoat666 - 6-14-2015 at 07:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bonanza bucko  
OK, Suppose that we accept "global warming" as a threat at sometime in the future.

What do you want us to do? Please be specific; give us a list of actions we must take now.

BB


Pretty simple and easy: stop polluting so much.

David K - 6-14-2015 at 07:49 AM

Hilarious answer. Compared to who/what/where? What is too much?
The United States has been amazing at cleaning up messes and being cleaner than others. How do you stop other countries from polluting 'so much'?

When a volcano erupts, how do you stop its 'pollution'?

What about animal farts?



bonanza bucko - 6-14-2015 at 08:03 AM

OK..."stop polluting so much:" What actions and public policies must we take now to do that? Please be specific; example: outlaw the internal combustion engine and when to do that? Outlaw air conditioning, when and where exactly? etc. etc.

We are anxious to understand how we can prevent the disasters you anticipate because of "global warming and/or climate change." We want to help but we need to understand what it is you want us to do and when to do that.

BB

DaliDali - 6-14-2015 at 08:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup  


I don�t think most could discern a 0.0590551 inch rise in one year nor in 50 years with the naked eye �

[Edited on 6-14-2015 by wessongroup]


Yet there is some boy who swears the cliffs and bluffs in Asuncion are eroding away with the rising sea level, as seen by his naked eye.
Never mind the action of the relentless NW winds, hurricanes, tropical storms and the torrential rainfall, courtesy of those same storms.

mtgoat666 - 6-14-2015 at 08:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bonanza bucko  
OK..."stop polluting so much:" What actions and public policies must we take now to do that? Please be specific; example: outlaw the internal combustion engine and when to do that? Outlaw air conditioning, when and where exactly? etc. etc.

We are anxious to understand how we can prevent the disasters you anticipate because of "global warming and/or climate change." We want to help but we need to understand what it is you want us to do and when to do that.

BB


The solutions will come about when sane minds engage in reasoned debate and reach concensus. Nothing will happen as long as certain factions persist in ridiculously denying the problem exists, and debate the problem by accusing scientists of lying.

mtgoat666 - 6-14-2015 at 08:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


What about animal farts?



Are you asking about your own farts? Or are you asking about your cat's farts?

Not to change the topic too much, but you should google obesity and climate change,... Interesting how obese people consume extra amounts of food, causing their own increased carbon footprint. Food for thought, so to speak

DaliDali - 6-14-2015 at 08:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by bonanza bucko  
OK..."stop polluting so much:" What actions and public policies must we take now to do that? Please be specific; example: outlaw the internal combustion engine and when to do that? Outlaw air conditioning, when and where exactly? etc. etc.

We are anxious to understand how we can prevent the disasters you anticipate because of "global warming and/or climate change." We want to help but we need to understand what it is you want us to do and when to do that.

BB


The solutions will come about when sane minds engage in reasoned debate and reach concensus. Nothing will happen as long as certain factions persist in ridiculously denying the problem exists, and debate the problem by accusing scientists of lying.


Pretty much cuts you out.....a sane mind.
You don't want reasoned debate....you want it YOUR way or the highway.... no matter the unintended consequences.

chuckie - 6-14-2015 at 09:20 AM

OK, I quit polluting.....solves that problem, eh?

The Upside to Internet Climate Debate

MrBillM - 6-14-2015 at 09:32 AM

All of this written rather than spoken debate avoids the generation of massive amounts of expelled Hot Air.

Other than that (and the feelgood factor for mostly Liberals), it doesn't do anything to change the situation.

Which can be good or bad depending on your view of the actual situation and its possible remedies.

Ultimately, the BEST solution is......................

"Don't Worry. Be Happy" !

Live life as you please. Use what you wish and hope that the supply (of Water, Gasoline, Heineken and other important necessities) outlasts your life. The amazing wonders of developing technology will enable coming generations to cope with the challenges.

Right ?

IF the Eco-Nuts are right, we'll have plenty of advance notice when Bangladesh (and other societies on the edge) disintegrate.

THEN, we can worry.

Or NOT, considering that those marginal societies disappearing will relieve a degree of population stress on the planet and, perhaps, their departure will strike a balance or act as a positive.

"In the meantime, in between times, ain't we got fun" ?

wessongroup - 6-14-2015 at 09:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bonanza bucko  
OK, Suppose that we accept "global warming" as a threat at sometime in the future.

What do you want us to do? Please be specific; give us a list of actions we must take now.

BB


This is about the only really big "specific" actions which is being set in place, at this time here in the U.S. ... and the big reason "coal" is a bit upset ... There are others, higher mileage, use less, recycle .. but, reduction of coal use is a big one

"Cut carbon emission from the power sector by 30 percent nationwide below 2005 levels"

http://www2.epa.gov/carbon-pollution-standards

This is a tough one for any business ... go backwards on "product" sold ... to 2005 ... let alone 1950 levels

And China has moved quickly to secure natural gas and oil from Russia .. to replace coal as a fuel soucre ... they had to in order to continue breathing ... :biggrin::biggrin:

And it isn't something that must be assumed ... It is a fact, and way past discussion ... That's why most nations are in fact acting on the findings of science and their noses

China is an excellent example of what happens with tremendous industrial growth without any reasonable environmental Laws and regulations to imitate negative impacts

Me, I'm still betting on the LHC to come up with a break through on "energy" ... which will replace "OIL" and "COAL" .. got my fingers crossed

As for being "happy" ... Like a pig in chit . .:biggrin::biggrin:

Enjoy your AM/PM stop this morning :):)

[Edited on 6-14-2015 by wessongroup]

From the Center for Global Research

David K - 6-14-2015 at 10:46 AM

http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-cooling-is-here/10783


The following article represents an alternative view and analysis of global climate change, which challenges the dominant Global Warming Consensus.

PREDICTIONS BASED ON PAST CLIMATE PATTERNS

Global climate changes have been far more intense (12 to 20 times as intense in some cases) than the global warming of the past century, and they took place in as little as 20�100 years. Global warming of the past century (0.8� C) is virtually insignificant when compared to the magnitude of at least 10 global climate changes in the past 15,000 years. None of these sudden global climate changes could possibly have been caused by human CO2 input to the atmosphere because they all took place long before anthropogenic CO2 emissions began. The cause of the ten earlier �natural� climate changes was most likely the same as the cause of global warming from 1977 to 1998.




Figure 2. Climate changes in the past 17,000 years from the GISP2 Greenland ice core. Red = warming, blue = cooling. (Modified from Cuffy and Clow, 1997)

Climatic fluctuations over the past several hundred years suggest ~30 year climatic cycles of global warming and cooling (Figure 3) on a generally rising trend from the Little Ice Age about 500 years ago.






Figure 3. Alternating warm and cool cycles since 1470 AD. Blue = cool, red = warm. Based on oxygen isotope ratios from the GISP2 Greenland ice core.

Relationships between glacial fluctuations, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, and global climate change.

After several decades of studying alpine glacier fluctuations in the North Cascade Range, my research showed a distinct pattern of glacial advances and retreats (the Glacial Decadal Oscillation, GDO) that correlated well with climate records. In 1992, Mantua published the Pacific Decadal Oscillation curve showing warming and cooling of the Pacific Ocean that correlated remarkably well with glacial fluctuations. Both the GDA and the PDO matched global temperature records and were obviously related (Fig. 4). All but the latest 30 years of changes occurred prior to significant CO2 emissions so they were clearly unrelated to atmospheric CO2.

[click onto the link at the top to continue]



[Edited on 6-14-2015 by David K]

gnukid - 6-14-2015 at 10:48 AM

Climate is not controlled by human influence. Human created CO2 is not pollution. Carbon is the source of life that fuels our symbiotic relationship between plants and animals. The total contribution made by humans to the environment is minor compared to earth's natural contribution.

Taxes on energy, efforts to reduce CO2 are misdirection to create a funding source for the UN and increase control of people. Energy can not be "conserved".

Pollution exists and can be reduced, for example, depleted uranium in arms explosions, over-use and dumping of pharmaceuticals, over-use of plastics, pesticides, destructive practices in over fishing by-catch.

If you are willing to simply accept the lies you are being fed by the EPA, UN, NOAA, IPCC, etc why not turn off the main power to your house and sit inside smugly in the dark and "conserve energy".

[Edited on 6-14-2015 by gnukid]

wessongroup - 6-14-2015 at 10:49 AM

I will ... IF EVERYONE else does ... :biggrin::biggrin:

And these guys came up with exactly the opposite along with many others

http://www.nichols.edu/departments/glacier/globalwarming.htm...

NORTH CASCADE RESPONSE TO GLOBAL WARMING

That some would dismiss NOAA, NASA, et al ... is a little scary IMHO :):)

Would add, in many cases ... negative environmental impacts are not readily 'Visible" ... I started out working with things in PPM, PPB, and PPT ... Parts per million, Parts per billion and Parts per Trillion ... none of these chemicals were "visible" ... unless they were Herbicides .. and left a visible "footprint" on the plant ... fungicides, fumigants, pesticide, and some herbicides were not visible ... the same can be said for CO2 ... can one SEE CO2 ... not really ... unless your tagging it with radioactive tracers

Visual observations are in some cases not possible ... only sampling to determine the "presents or absents" and then quantify the "amount" ... the establish a "tolerance" which can be "accepted" for Human Health (ten to the minus 6) and the Environment (toxic levels developing) coupled with careful consideration to the overall impact to the "economy" both locally and the World

The problem facing the planet .. is one that you can't walk away from ... at this time

Think that is the point Dr Stephen Hawkings was making .... Find another Planet "fast" ... :lol::lol:

To old and screwed up to make the Mars expedition .. .but, would sure in hell would sign up, for that one ... :):)

Hey thanks for the discussion ... It all helps

And the only improvement would be having a beer ... on the deck looking out at the beauty of our "environment" .. and discussing it ...

[Edited on 6-14-2015 by wessongroup]

mtgoat666 - 6-14-2015 at 10:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


From the Center for Global Research

http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-cooling-is-here/10783


The following article represents an alternative view and analysis of global climate change, which challenges the dominant Global Warming Consensus.


globalresearch.ca is a medium for conspiracy theories, pseudo-science, propoganda and quackery

SFandH - 6-14-2015 at 11:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  


From the Center for Global Research

http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-cooling-is-here/10783


The following article represents an alternative view and analysis of global climate change, which challenges the dominant Global Warming Consensus.


globalresearch.ca is a medium for conspiracy theories, pseudo-science, propoganda and quackery


Here's a Global Research article about how wonderful North Korea is.

North Korea, a Land of Human Achievement, Love and Joy

North Korea Celebrates 60th Anniversary of Victory

http://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-a-land-of-human-ach...

The earth is cooling and North Korea is a great place........according to articles on the Global Research website.

Certainly minority opinions.


[Edited on 6-14-2015 by SFandH]

wessongroup - 6-14-2015 at 11:56 AM

This is typically how "Risk/Benefit" is conducted

"The ban on the use of DDT and certain other organochlorine
insecticides in Sweden from 1 January 1970 was based on a number of ecological considerations. More recently a number of other developed countries have restricted or banned the use of DDT except when it is needed for the protection of health. However, DDT is still used extensively for both agriculture and vector control in some tropical countries. If DDT were not used, vast populations would again be
condemned to the ravages of endemic and epidemic malaria.

Substitution of malathion or propoxur for DDT would increase the cost of malaria control by approximately 3.4- or 8.5-fold, respectively, and these increases could not be supported by some countries without decreasing the coverage of their control programs."

A difficult balance to work through ... regardless of the specific "chemical" being discussed ...

And chemistry is the basis on which "economic growth" is dependent on ... think not, just look around the room, the car or outside ... its all "atoms" which are the building blocks of everything we know, at this time

gnukid - 6-14-2015 at 12:15 PM

Here are links to all the ICCC panel discussions reviewing scientific method, data, proven facts and demonstrable lies about climate.

http://climateconference.heartland.org

Mexitron - 6-14-2015 at 12:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bonanza bucko  
OK, Suppose that we accept "global warming" as a threat at sometime in the future.

What do you want us to do? Please be specific; give us a list of actions we must take now.

BB


Whether or not GW will be catastrophic or turn out to be a non-event oil will be come scarcer....fracking is just squeezing oil out of existing oil geology. I would invest massively in solar energy (manufactured domestically!) solar on every rooftop, not solar farms. This essentially will be enough power to run houses and cars and more...at the same time develop the hydrogen fuel cell economy---the beauty of hydrogen for fuel is that it can created locally---small hydrolysis machines running off of solar energy, bigger machines where they're needed. Again, this infrastructure would all be manufactured domestically. And the exhaust of hydrogen fuel cells is water which can be recycled back to the hydrolysis machine to be used again. So, there you have it---the air cleaner, middle class restored with plenty of manufacturing, and no reliance on foreign oil....NEXT! Lol

AKgringo - 6-14-2015 at 02:00 PM

Like Pompano, I usually avoid the environmental debates on this forum. Not because I don't care, but the scholarly discourse always evovles into a scrum that gets old after a while.

I did come across a link today that could throw a little fuel on the fire, so heck, why not?

http://www.applet-magic/GWstopped.htm

I can't vouch for the authors work, or who paid for the study, but it is from San Jose State University

Second edit; I fixed it!
Edit; I thought the web address would come through as a link you could click on

[Edited on 6-14-2015 by AKgringo]

[Edited on 6-14-2015 by AKgringo]

SFandH - 6-14-2015 at 02:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo  
Like Pompano, I usually avoid the environmental debates on this forum. Not because I don't care, but the scholarly discourse always evovles into a scrum that gets old after a while.

I did come across a link today that could throw a little fuel on the fire, so heck, why not?

www.applet-magic/GWstopped.htm

I can't vouch for the authors work, or who paid for the study, but it is from San Jose State University

Edit; I thought the web address would come through as a link you could click on

[Edited on 6-14-2015 by AKgringo]


Actually it's a private website maintained by an economics professor who works at San Jose State.

https://who.is/whois/applet-magic.com

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/watkins.htm

He's being deceptive by putting the San Jose State graphic on the top of the page.

http://www.applet-magic.com/GWstopped.htm


[Edited on 6-14-2015 by SFandH]

David K - 6-14-2015 at 03:29 PM

And so, no matter what we think or do about this topic, the earth will keep on doing what it will. Fear of something that neither effects you or you can affect, is just drama used to control others or extract money.

SFandH - 6-14-2015 at 03:52 PM

A billboard by the climate change skeptic organization gnukid references:




Who's playing to fear?

mtgoat666 - 6-14-2015 at 04:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
And so, no matter what we think or do about this topic, the earth will keep on doing what it will. Fear of something that neither effects you or you can affect, is just drama used to control others or extract money.


it is curious that for someone who professes an interest in the natural history and the outdoor wonders of baja, you are astoundingly anti-science and prone to knee-jerk reactions to dismiss as lies all of natural history, climatology and geoscience that conflicts with your politics/dogma.

you know, science in fields far removed from your experience can be fascinating to learn about,... you should open up your mind and pull your head out of your arse.

the biogeochemistry in climate science is interesting - open up your mind and you might even find entertainment in learning about it.

[Edited on 6-14-2015 by mtgoat666]

SFandH - 6-14-2015 at 04:26 PM

Plus, if the IPCC predictions are true, how will the climate of baja change? For the better or for the worse? It might start getting more rainfall, rainfall other than tropical storm caused rainfall maybe. Greener, more agriculture possibly. Or it might get drier. It would be interesting to make some assumptions about climate change and try to infer the effect on baja.

I think it's a safe to say that with global warming, what we consider tropical weather will expand north and south. Maybe we're seeing that now with the earlier hurricanes.

[Edited on 6-14-2015 by SFandH]

Bajahowodd - 6-14-2015 at 04:49 PM

I've stated it before, and I'll do it again. We have an epidemic of asthma and COPD that is directly related to the increase in carbon emissions.

If you are an idiot who wants to keeps arguing about climate change yes, or no, you can still understand why we need to reduce carbon emissions, so our children and grand children will be able to breathe.

SFandH - 6-14-2015 at 05:14 PM

There is also that issue, extracting and burning fossil fuels is filthy, dangerous, and harmful to the environment and all animals. I've seen some horrible photos of air pollution from coal plants in China.

bajabuddha - 6-14-2015 at 05:22 PM

The part that both fascinates and befuddles me the most is the stance taken by the doubters that because of natural disasters and disturbances over the millennia are justification for the current effects, measurements, and potential man-caused disturbances measured today.

"What about the Great Lakes? Can somebody explain to me about them??" ..... Yes, somebody has (many-body's, actually); you can see their effects in the great boulders in Central Park, NYC. Well-explained, well SCIENTIFICALLY studied. Meantime, take the time to learn maybe. "One big volcano and BLOOIE !!!! IT'S ALL THE SAME !" No, it's not. Have any of you true doubters ever really taken any courses in geology/paleontology/climatology, other than what you have fallen in-step with from your traditional political family stances?

Our most famous critic espouses ''open your eyes, think for yourself''. Good point, good advice; IF you have the maturity to back it up, rather than stuck in a 13-year-old's mentality of tunnel vision and no periphery, or possibility thereof. One must realize there is no ''true self-taught-vision'' in our whole existence. You are the cumulation of hundreds of millions of thoughts, actions, and words formulated by others you've seen/heard over your own lifetime. You didn't wake up one morning with an 'epiphany' and come up with your dogma/tag-line; you learned it from someone you admired and believed.

So did Jim Jones' crew. So don't blame the hundreds of thousands of scientists accepting less-than-acceptable wages trying to do something beneficial to our deteriorating earth while your idols, the true usurpers and abusers blind you with hate-filled rhetoric. I've never seen a 'liberal' loose their temper and shout, but on many occasions have seen very strong-willed 'conservatives' loose their friggin' minds and turn into shouting bullies just because someone said something that may be construed as 'anti-patriotic' or 'anti-governmental' (their governmental)......

SYNOPSIS:
The current global climate change has NOTHING to do with paleo-climatology. The State of Oregon and the Idaho Batholith prove that. The end of the Pleistocene Ice Age has NOTHING to do with it. The Permian Extinction or the Cretaceous/Tertiary Boundary has NOTHING to do with what we have been, are, and will continue to do in a very short, and getting shorter, time period.

David K - 6-14-2015 at 06:09 PM

Goat, I am super pro-science... love facts to death. Man-made climate disaster is a HOAX upon intelligent people. You must want to think man is mightier than Nature, or believe in a powerful, central government to manage every part of your life to be so willing to accept what former politicians, Hollywood stars, and government paid workers keep pushing on us.

Just the fact that after years of calling it 'Global Warming', they had to rename it... BECAUSE THE GLOBE WASN'T WARMING any more than it was COOLING... ought to have made anyone question this group. Seriously, so now you want to argue on behalf of a 'religion' that can't even keep it's name for 20 years? Climate Change??? What's new there... the climate has ALWAYS changed?!!! LOL

DavidT - 6-14-2015 at 06:27 PM

#Popeforplanet

tripledigitken - 6-14-2015 at 06:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bajahowodd  
I've stated it before, and I'll do it again. We have an epidemic of asthma and COPD that is directly related to the increase in carbon emissions..


Having someone very close with COPD, I would like to see your sources. Would you please furnish a link.

Thanks

Bajaboy - 6-14-2015 at 06:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Goat, I am super pro-science... love facts to death. Man-made climate disaster is a HOAX upon intelligent people. You must want to think man is mightier than Nature, or believe in a powerful, central government to manage every part of your life to be so willing to accept what former politicians, Hollywood stars, and government paid workers keep pushing on us.

Just the fact that after years of calling it 'Global Warming', they had to rename it... BECAUSE THE GLOBE WASN'T WARMING any more than it was COOLING... ought to have made anyone question this group. Seriously, so now you want to argue on behalf of a 'religion' that can't even keep it's name for 20 years? Climate Change??? What's new there... the climate has ALWAYS changed?!!! LOL


SOS

wessongroup - 6-14-2015 at 07:05 PM

It may work this time ...

Had no idea Hitler was so liberal :lol::lol:



[Edited on 6-15-2015 by wessongroup]

The Best Resource Management IS .................

MrBillM - 6-14-2015 at 08:32 PM

"Use it Before we Lose It."

There's NO point in giving up something you LIKE just so that somebody you don't KNOW or LIKE can have it instead.

wessongroup - 6-15-2015 at 01:52 PM

Would agree with that point .... provided it applied to one's LIFE ... :biggrin::biggrin:

DaliDali - 6-15-2015 at 02:58 PM

Would someone please measure the weight of air from inside your room that is using an air purifier.
Then go outside and capture some air and measure the weight of that outside air.
Compare the two weights of the two gaseous elements and report back.

woody with a view - 6-15-2015 at 03:00 PM

has anyone changed anyone else's mind here? NO

is there a snowflakes chance in hell of that happening? NO

close this thread, already!

chuckie - 6-15-2015 at 03:03 PM

Ja, I think the fat lady sang a while ago

Mexitron - 6-15-2015 at 03:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
"Use it Before we Lose It."

There's NO point in giving up something you LIKE just so that somebody you don't KNOW or LIKE can have it instead.



Also depends on the price you're willing to pay for that resource---oil will likely be more expensive as the years go by and add the cost of foreign entanglements such as Iraq and well, seems pretty expensive compared to solar, hydrogen, and (possibly) fusion. I'd starting preparing now rather than later. Besides, a massive program for those energies would be great for our economy AND if we start developing the technology and infrastructure now we can export it to other countries:light: Or we can chase oil down the rabbit hole of a dying empire.

wessongroup - 6-15-2015 at 03:45 PM

Perhaps the "moral" argument will work ... :):)

As that aspect appears not to have been included into the discussion or could one conclude that morality is not involved in the decision making process, at this time

Atomic weight of AIR ... here's an aid to help on the process

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/molecular-mass-air-d_679.h...

Hell, I think its a fun topic ... the weather .. never a dull moment

any hurricanes on the horizon ... :):)

[Edited on 6-15-2015 by wessongroup]

Paying the Price

MrBillM - 6-15-2015 at 07:13 PM

Sounds GOOD to me.

"F" all this Government-enforced limitations nonsense.

Let the market determine the price and let us determine whether we're willing to pay it.

wessongroup - 6-15-2015 at 07:58 PM

Appears morality isn't part of the discussion ... Strange HUH .. :biggrin::biggrin:

[Edited on 6-16-2015 by wessongroup]

bledito - 6-15-2015 at 09:03 PM

if the weather has any bearing on the subject i would have to say we have more devastating storms as of late. haven't read the posts as it's usually a lot of hot air blowing back and forth. that in itself i would have to say is contributing to warming of some type.

BajaBill74 - 6-15-2015 at 09:09 PM

Tropical storm "Bill" is headed for Texas. I don't think it was named after me.:)

gnukid - 6-15-2015 at 09:17 PM



maue_hurricane_frequency.png - 185kB

tripledigitken - 6-15-2015 at 11:10 PM

Florida has gone 3,270 days without a hurricane � nearly nine years and, by far, the longest stretch on record (the next longest streak is 5 seasons from 1980-1984, in records dating back to 1851).


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/...

LancairDriver - 6-16-2015 at 09:50 AM

Another Global warming example

http://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/mexico-city-puebla-closed-sn...

gnukid - 6-16-2015 at 11:22 AM

The evidence is clear: The ice caps aren't melting. The sea isn't rising. The temperature isn't rising. Extreme weather is not occurring more frequently, despite Co2 measurements increasing from 290-400ppm over the past century.

We know that temperature increase does not follow Co2 increase. In fact, the opposite is true.

Despite Co2 increasing dramatically, the Earth's temperature has not gone up significantly in the last 100 years. Any warming that has been measured is easily explained by measurement anomalies from inaccurate equipment a century ago, urban heat island effect, outright data manipulation, and large (normal) variances in temperature over the years and across parts of the world.

http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/2159861...

http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/2159861...

wessongroup - 6-16-2015 at 11:30 AM

A Pause In Global Warming? Not Really

But Thomas Karl, Director of NOAA�s National Centers for Environmental Information, says, �Our new analysis suggests that the apparent hiatus may have been largely the result of limitations in past datasets, and that the rate of warming over the first 15 years of this century has, in fact, been as fast or faster than that seen over the last half of the 20th century.�

Besides, the IPCC data in the 2013 report didn�t actually show much of a Pause anyway. The report actually concluded, �Warming of the climate system is unequivocal, and since the 1950s, many of the observed changes are unprecedented over decades to millennia.�

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2015/06/15/a-pause-in...




[Edited on 6-16-2015 by wessongroup]

motoged - 6-16-2015 at 11:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The only angry people consistently are liberals... do they even smile?



Davie....you got me smilin' with that brilliant insight....:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

wessongroup - 6-16-2015 at 11:44 AM

:):)

Sweetwater - 6-16-2015 at 11:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The only angry people consistently are liberals... do they even smile?



Davie....you got me smilin' with that brilliant insight....:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


ROFLMAO

We're not living ON the planet, we're part of it and the biosphere we inhabit allows us to continue our lives. Too bad so many of us continue to want to practice ignorance and wreck it.....

gnukid - 6-16-2015 at 11:52 AM

Focus on working together to change highly destructive practices in manufacturing, medicine, farming, fishing, energy, banking, prison, military.


wessongroup - 6-16-2015 at 11:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
Focus on working together to change highly destructive practices in manufacturing, medicine, farming, fishing, energy, banking, prison, military.




Would not disagree with that statement at all ... As that is the ONLY way any thing of this "scope" will work

It's important that all come forward to make it better for ALL



However, asking for people to do with "less" tends to be a hard sell :biggrin::biggrin:

I'm sure it will all work out ... perhaps not exactly how many would like ... but, comprise is the way we work, at this time

And most prefer this approach to "WAR" ... as do I

And speaking of war, better watch out with Poland and Russia .... we appear to be pushing the envelope in this area

Can't imagine we and/or NATO would like to get into a "Land War" with Russia, and can't imagine the Chinese supporting it either ... since they will be getting their "energy" from Russia .. .going forward ... China has been moving very fast in the last year to replace all coal fired energy sources within their infrastructure

Would think one could draw reasonable conclusions as to the importance of CO2 increases ... based on the Chinese rapid movement way from "Coal" and oil with high sulfur ... to natural gas and cleaner burning oil ... just saying

Think there maybe confusion of the "intent" of science ... Science doesn't lay out the plans to business on HOW to correct the problem ... rather science provides "facts" which allow business to make "Informed Business Decision"

And based on what business has learned over the past 25-35 years with their involvement with science has only grown both closer, as science provides the FACTS which allows Business to continue on ... the only rub at this time ... HOW MUCH growth can "work" without tipping the scales ... which would then mean reduced business and/or profits ... :):)

[Edited on 6-16-2015 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 6-16-2015 by wessongroup]

DaliDali - 6-16-2015 at 12:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
Focus on working together to change highly destructive practices in manufacturing, medicine, farming, fishing, energy, banking, prison, military.


If you add in politicians and their unquenchable thirst for more and more tax dollars, and lobbyists who feed them the "brilliant" ideas to come up with more tax dollars.....I would totally agree.

David K - 6-16-2015 at 12:28 PM

If all I do is get some of you to think for yourselves instead of just falling for the populist belief in 'man created' climate change/ rising sea levels/ etc., then that is enough. I think our children have enough in life to deal with than to heap a bunch of 'guilt' upon them for merely being humans.

People ARE a part of this planet and what we do here is part of that. Keeping the place as clean as possible is a great idea, if for nothing else, to make it more enjoyable for us and future generations. But, just being human does not make us evil and planet destroyers. We have the biggest brain for our size, so let's use our brains and think, and not just fall for some bureaucrat's claims, automatically.

Thank you.

motoged - 6-16-2015 at 12:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
If all I do is get some of you to think for yourselves instead of just falling for the populist belief in 'man created' climate change/ rising sea levels/ etc., then that is enough.....


David,
Your rant is predictable and has done nothing to influence my thinking in any constructive way.

Other posters, however, have offered good info (not just opinions) on both sides of the topic of climate change and its possibilities.

Please don't put yourself in the righteous position of productively influencing our thinking....you are just not that important. :light:
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