BajaNomad

GMOs

toneart - 7-30-2015 at 11:36 AM

How much of Baja's food is genetically engineered?

Here is the awful truth about GMOs in the United States and how the Congress is on the take from Monsanto at the expense of our health. We have a right to know what is in our food and have it labeled accordingly:

Source: Modern Farmer Magazine

"Late last week, the U.S. House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed a bill, H.R. 1599, that would ban states from forcing food companies to label products that contain genetically-modified ingredients. It’s the latest salvo in the great GMO debate that has raged for nearly as long as scientists have been able to manipulate genes, producing foods impossible to create by selective breeding or other natural methods.

FDA Approves GMO Apples And Potatoes

The GMO Labeling Fight Now Belongs to a 15-Year-Old Canadian Girl

Why Does Everyone Hate Monsanto?

“The widespread introduction of genetically engineered organisms into our food supply (with very little independent review) probably represents the biggest change in what we eat on a daily basis since the invention of refrigeration,” says Andrea Stander, a spokesperson for Rural Vermont, a grassroots organization that supports small farmers.

The right for the public to know whether their food has been made with GMOs is at the heart of the current fight. It’s been estimated that as much as 70 percent of the food Americans get at their local supermarket includes genetically engineered ingredients.

It’s a divisive issue that has managed to encompass such diverse topics as states’ rights, corporate transparency, political finance and small farmers versus Big Ag. It’s a bitter divide. Opponents of the House bill won’t even refer to it as the Safe and Accurate Food Labeling Act of 2015, instead dubbing it the DARK Act (Deny Americans the Right-to-Know).

Americans “overwhelmingly” want to know if their food contains GMOs with “most polls” showing “that more than 90 percent of the public favors labeling,” says Colin O’Neil, director of government affairs for the watchdog organization the Center for Food Safety.

Tired of waiting for the federal government to act on the GMO labeling issue, Connecticut, Maine and Vermont all passed mandatory GMO labeling laws over the last few years. Similar initiatives are being considered in several other states. Industry groups, including the Grocery Manufacturers Association, the National Association of Manufacturers, the Snack Food Association and the International Dairy Foods Association, sued Vermont over its law—set to take effect next year—and lost. The case is currently on appeal.

The fight then moved to the House, and on July 23, H.R. 1599 won by a vote of 275-150 with Democrats from the centrist Blue Dog Coalition throwing their support behind Republicans.

“Passage of this bill is an attempt by Monsanto and its agribusiness cronies to crush the democratic decision-making of tens of millions of Americans. Corporate influence has won and the voice of the people has been ignored,” says O’Neil.

Supporters of the bill outspent opponents by more than three-and-a-half times, contributing nearly $25 million to House members’ campaigns, according to the organization Maplight.

Besides banning mandatory GMO labeling at the state and local level, the bill allows manufacturers to claim non-GMO status even if the product was made using “a GMO processing aid or enzyme” or is “derived from animals fed GMO feed or given GMO drugs.” It also keeps companies from claiming on their food labels that non-GMO products are safer than those that contain genetically-modified ingredients, and would create a voluntary system for GMO labeling.

Roger Lowe of the Grocery Manufacturers Association, a trade group for the food industry, praised the bill’s passage, saying that the “legislation strengthens consumer knowledge by establishing national uniform rules for foods carrying a GMO-free label” by putting it in the hands of the FDA and USDA.

“That way, people who want to buy GMO-free foods will have a way to do so,” he tells Modern Farmer in an email, reasoning that consumers will have the option to buy from companies who want to advertise their products are GMO-free. “This would help consumers far more than what is happening now with individual states establishing a patchwork of labeling laws with different standards, definitions and labels.”

According to Lowe, the state laws are “filled with loopholes and exemptions.” He cited Vermont’s law as an example, where “vegetable soup would require a special label while vegetable beef soup would be exempt because meat isn’t covered under the law. That will only result in consumer confusion.” The laws, Lowe says, would “result in severe consequences for America’s farmers, small businesses, and consumers” by driving up costs that “could total up to $500 per year for an average family of four” due to “costly new burdens” and a “complex maze of regulations.”

O’Neill disputes this, saying food companies change their labels “all the time” and the cost would be “negligible. Sixty-four countries around the world require GE [genetically engineered] food labeling and have not reported higher food costs as a result.”

Lowe says the “overwhelming scientific consensus is that GMO ingredients are as safe as any other food” and points to “The Food and Drug Administration and major scientific and health organizations” that have “found GMOs are safe for humans and positive for the environment.”

Stander begs to differ, telling Modern Farmer, “there is sufficient scientific evidence about potential harm to human health and the environment from genetically engineered food crops to warrant greater transparency by the producers of these products.”

While the passage of the House bill was hailed as a victory by supporters, the battle is far from over. A bill would have to make it through the Senate and then past President Barack Obama’s desk before it becomes law. Both sides hold out hope for how things will play out in the Senate.

“We remain confident that the Senate will preserve the rights of Americans and stand up for local democracy,” says O’Neil. “So far there has been little interest in the Senate to support this kind of legislation. With only a limited number of Democratic voting for it in the house, this anti-consumer bill will likely receive a cold reception in the Senate. A Senate version of the bill has not yet been introduced.”

Lowe says the GMA is “urging the Senate to pass this critically important legislation this year. Congress leaves for its August recess soon, and we’re pushing for Senate action in the fall.”

Meanwhile, the great GMO debate rages on.

SFandH - 7-30-2015 at 12:10 PM

Just so everyone knows, only food derived from plants can be genetically modified. Animals, not yet.

About 90% of the corn in the US is genetically modified as are many fruits and vegetables. What do these folks want? Labels on each ear of corn, each piece of fruit?

I suppose a sign above the bin would do. But it wouldn't stop me from buying it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food

bajagrouper - 7-30-2015 at 12:15 PM

I believe Mexico banned GMO corn back in 2013......

http://www.nationofchange.org/mexico-bans-gmo-corn-effective...

55steve - 7-30-2015 at 12:15 PM

Plants have been genetically modified ever since the first humans began growing them...there is virtually not a single plant that has not been affected over the thousands of years of cultivation.

woody with a view - 7-30-2015 at 12:47 PM

EXCEPT the newest Monsanto frankenfood has been modified so that a bit of Roundup weed killer (and maybe worm killer?) in each seed at the molecular level. I wonder how much of that crap gets into a corn tortilla?

SFandH - 7-30-2015 at 12:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 55steve  
Plants have been genetically modified ever since the first humans began growing them...there is virtually not a single plant that has not been affected over the thousands of years of cultivation.


It's true that selective and hybrid cultivation over time can produce genetically modified strains. A natural form of genetic engineering.

Now scientists are using bioengineering techniques to modify the genome in the laboratory. A completely different process that produces plants that would be impossible to produce via natural methods.

Much of it for the good. Higher crop yields, drought resistance, insect resistance etc. Millions of lives could be saved from starvation through the efforts of these scientists.


[Edited on 7-30-2015 by SFandH]

bajabuddha - 7-30-2015 at 01:57 PM

Corn as we know it is a GM food, and has been for several thousand years. It started off more like a wheat grass, and native central Mexican peoples slowly but surely modified it over time to 5-row, then 7-row, and eventually the size ears we have today. For the last thousand years (plus or minus a few) corn as we know it cannot reproduce on its' own; it has to be re-planted manually, or we wouldn't have corn, period. GMO corn made up 85% of the maize planted in the United States in 2009.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize

And, as SFandH says, GMO may be the only hope of feeding future world populations in the very near future.... another BILLION mouths to feed in the next twenty years; the earth is running out of growing room land-wise, let alone water aquifers. Them dang skientistises in their white lab coats bilking the Gov't for their funding..... I just wish they'd invent a third arm to grow out of my chest with a thumb on either side of the hand..... why don't they do something practical for a change, eh? How great would that be?

toneart - 7-30-2015 at 02:43 PM

Excellent feedback (no pun intended).

It is true that GMOs could help to stave off starvation by feeding millions throughout the world. That is a good argument! Still, I won't eat it if I have a choice.

What I/We want is for all packaged food to be labeled so that I/We can make an informed decision; Cereals, tortillas, frozen or canned veggies and fruits, bread, etc.

As for fresh fruits and vegetables, I buy only Organic and eat only in restaurants that server Organic foods. Generally, small Organic farms would not knowingly buy GMO seeds. I have a good garden and also buy food from local producers during the Summer Farmers' Markets. In the off season, I buy Organically labeled foods in Supermarkets, but mostly from our local Coop Healthfood stores.

I eat only wild caught fish and only free range chickens and eggs. I do occasionally eat red meat, but only grass fed, no antibiotics, etc.

Many Organic producers voluntarily label their packages as "Non-GMO". That is what I buy. Hey! Maybe I don't have bad breath...d'ya think?....Naaaaaaah!

There is a huge movement throughout the world to eat only Organic and Non-GMO. If the government won't require producers to label their foods, and if the producers do not, then I have to assume that they are genetically modified. Monsanto is the biggest GMO seed supplier.

Bajabuddha wishes: "I just wish they'd invent a third arm to grow out of my chest with a thumb on either side of the hand..... why don't they do something practical for a change, eh? How great would that be?" I think you are in luck, however the scientists will not invent it. Babies will soon be born with only thumbs. It is an evolutionary result of incessant texting.

Some of you know that I have an incurable, rare form of Lymphoma Mantle Cell Lymphoma. It is impossible to know how I got it but sprays in our foods are highly suspect. The barn door has probably opened for me, but due to my illness I have gotten rather fanatically vigilant.

I have way outlived my prognosis and am currently in my third round of six month Chemo treatments. Other than the immediate side effects, which are awful, I bounce back and actually have a good quality of life.

bajabuddha - 7-30-2015 at 03:06 PM

Tony, I think natural selection will actually reduce the number of texters in the world... unfortunately, it will be behind the wheel of a car, and I hope i'm not on their receiving end.

Good luck with your endeavors and buen salud. We're having store-bought beef ribs and GMO corn on the cob for dinner tonight..... and martinis at 5:00 as always, to ward off any dangerous germs, of course.
:coolup:

wessongroup - 7-30-2015 at 04:45 PM

Interesting topic ... Man's ability to "patent" life .. And a topic which the Supreme Court has avoided making a "call" on ... :):)

Wonder how this guy would view the impact of his work today

"Gregor Johann Mendel (20 July 1822[1] – 6 January 1884) was a German-speaking Moravian[2] scientist and Augustinian friar who gained posthumous fame as the founder of the modern science of genetics. Though farmers had known for centuries that crossbreeding of animals and plants could favor certain desirable traits, Mendel's pea plant experiments conducted between 1856 and 1863 established many of the rules of heredity, now referred to as the laws of Mendelian inheritance."

Evolution has no favorites

how much in a "corn" tortilla ... depends on how long ya cook it over a fire ... :biggrin::biggrin:

[Edited on 7-30-2015 by wessongroup]

Bajahowodd - 7-30-2015 at 05:00 PM

If I may ask, is there any conclusive evidence that people who eat GMO foods have suffered from any specific illnesses?

I would consider myself to be an ex-hippie tree hugger type who would rail at a company like Monsanto for putting the health of the general public at risk or profit, but I've yet to see where GMO foods have caused any harm. And given that they may feed more people...

Speaking of Monsanto, does anyone recall the ride first built at the New York Worlds Fair and later transferred to Disneyland where the pot heads would smoke on the ride?

SFandH - 7-30-2015 at 05:04 PM

toneart,

Glad to hear treatments are working. As far as the dramatic increase in cancer rates, who knows, it's such a complicated conglomeration of diseases.

But, if I had to bet on a likely cause of the increase in the past few decades, I'd bet on the atmospheric testing of over 500 nuclear bombs when you and I were in our formative years. Ionizing radiation definitely causes cancer, many times years and years after exposure.

It's tough to pin down though, especially considering all the chemicals that have been dumped into our rivers, lakes, and the atmosphere.

GMOs are yet another wild card.


[Edited on 7-31-2015 by SFandH]

55steve - 7-30-2015 at 06:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bajahowodd  
If I may ask, is there any conclusive evidence that people who eat GMO foods have suffered from any specific illnesses?

I would consider myself to be an ex-hippie tree hugger type who would rail at a company like Monsanto for putting the health of the general public at risk or profit, but I've yet to see where GMO foods have caused any harm. And given that they may feed more people...

Speaking of Monsanto, does anyone recall the ride first built at the New York Worlds Fair and later transferred to Disneyland where the pot heads would smoke on the ride?


Answering your first question - no

I'm one of the almost original Hippies but have since gotten my wits about me but my wife probably won't agree!

We went to Disney World in Florida in maybe 1988 and I vividly remember the massive Monsanto display/building and the ride!

[Edited on 7-31-2015 by 55steve]

dtbushpilot - 7-30-2015 at 06:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bajahowodd  
If I may ask, is there any conclusive evidence that people who eat GMO foods have suffered from any specific illnesses?

I would consider myself to be an ex-hippie tree hugger type who would rail at a company like Monsanto for putting the health of the general public at risk or profit, but I've yet to see where GMO foods have caused any harm. And given that they may feed more people...

Speaking of Monsanto, does anyone recall the ride first built at the New York Worlds Fair and later transferred to Disneyland where the pot heads would smoke on the ride?


Not sure which ride you are referring to but we lit up on the Pirates of the Caribbean once, my friend had long hair (duh) and when he bent down to light it he caught his hair on fire....it wasn't the first one of the day. We were in the very back row of the boat but I'm sure everyone on the boat knew what was up..:lol:

edit: sorry for the hijack...

[Edited on 7-31-2015 by dtbushpilot]

woody with a view - 7-30-2015 at 07:03 PM

cmon, DT. we've seen your hair! friend, eh?:light::biggrin::P

dtbushpilot - 7-30-2015 at 08:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by woody with a view  
cmon, DT. we've seen your hair! friend, eh?:light::biggrin::P


It was his hair not mine but back then I had hair, lots of it....:lol:

wessongroup - 7-30-2015 at 08:48 PM

"At present, no verifiable evidence of adverse health effects of BD foods has been reported, although the current passive reporting system probably would not detect minor or rare adverse effects or a moderate increase in effects with a high background incidence such as diarrhea."

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/71/1/2.full

An acceptable level of risk, for a substance used in the production of Food and/or Fiber, is set in Law at one cancer in a million for humans, in most cases ... only problem with that approach .. IF you are the "one"

When taken as a whole, that would be all industrial chemicals produced by man, which we® are exposed to in a life time ... there isn't anything on the books ... not enough data to make any fact based conclusions ... only assessments to health and/or risk can be made ... with economics playing a large role in over all direction of things made and/or used to live on this planet ... at this time

Kinda like the atmosphere ... :biggrin::biggrin:

Thanks tone .. a good one :):)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc_v_Schmeise...

[Edited on 7-31-2015 by wessongroup]

SFandH - 7-31-2015 at 10:01 AM

Here are two videos about GMO foods engineered by Monsanto to be resistant to their herbicide Roundup. The idea is that farmers can then use Roundup directly on the crops to kill weeds without killing the crop.

These videos are at nutritionfacts.org which is a website run by Dr. Michael Gregor, MD. The website has a lot of interesting information about nutrition and disease.

As you will see, he backs up what he says with peer reviewed scientific studies.

These two short videos are meant to be watched in sequence.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/are-gmos-safe-the-case-of-ro...

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-monsantos-roundup-pestici...

As you might guess, eating Roundup is not a good idea and that's what you're doing with Roundup resistant crops sprayed with Roundup.

[Edited on 7-31-2015 by SFandH]

BajaRat - 7-31-2015 at 11:56 AM

Once again it's money before ethics and that's been the business model for a long time. This gene that allows a plant to survive Roundup Herbicide does not carry any protection for your consumption of the tainted products.
The conversation is cleverly diverted from one of the real dangers and that's consuming products that have been treated with pesticides and herbicides. We aren't even touching the ecological and environmental impact that is undeniably taking place as a result of these chemicals and practices.
Those Dems and Reps have done their masters proud once again and like Pavlov's Dog their eagerly waiting to push the button for another campaign contribution.
All we asked for was a choice and they wouldn't give it to us.
They have made it pretty obvious they represent Big Business Not The Consumer :fire:

Bajahowodd - 7-31-2015 at 04:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 55steve  
Quote: Originally posted by Bajahowodd  
If I may ask, is there any conclusive evidence that people who eat GMO foods have suffered from any specific illnesses?

I would consider myself to be an ex-hippie tree hugger type who would rail at a company like Monsanto for putting the health of the general public at risk or profit, but I've yet to see where GMO foods have caused any harm. And given that they may feed more people...

Speaking of Monsanto, does anyone recall the ride first built at the New York Worlds Fair and later transferred to Disneyland where the pot heads would smoke on the ride?


Answering your first question - no

I'm one of the almost original Hippies but have since gotten my wits about me but my wife probably won't agree!

We went to Disney World in Florida in maybe 1988 and I vividly remember the massive Monsanto display/building and the ride!

[Edited on 7-31-2015 by 55steve]


I had no idea that they had a similar ride at Disney World. The original exhibit from the New York World's Fair went straight out to Anaheim.

brewer - 7-31-2015 at 09:14 PM

The house passed a bill denying people the right to know. I think that is wrong. You should be able to make a choice between GMO and non-GMO foods if you want. It's bull$ it.

chuckie - 8-1-2015 at 07:52 AM

Actually you are pretty much spot on...Gets a lot of discussion out here in the State that grows your food.....Sort of an aside, we Farmer Ranchers seldom buy meats from place like Walmart because we see what happens to it after we deliver it to the feed lots....We are fortunate to still have enough local locker plants and ranch butchers to buy meat that is from local ranches/farms....In fact one of our processors posts the name of the ranch from which it came from....IE: Chuckie/off grass-corn finished. The only "Fly over state I know of is Kalifornia, person would have to be crazy to set foot in it.....

SFandH - 8-1-2015 at 08:10 AM

Thanks for taking the time to contribute Don Jorge. I did a little reading and video watching yesterday about GMOs and my concern about GMOs has shifted.

I was concerned about eating GMOs because of the gene modifications. Now I'm more concerned about eating Roundup!

Do I have this right? Monsanto has developed by genetic engineering soy and corn that is not killed by its herbicide Roundup. Therefore farmers can now spray Roundup directly upon the crops, killing the weeds but not the crop. I read that this results in food contaminated with Roundup which is composed of a chemical that is a possible carcinogen. And, the level of contamination is above allowable limits so the FDA raised the allowable limits.

Chuckie ?????

wilderone - 8-1-2015 at 08:32 AM

One of the reasons there is so much opposition to GMO corn in Mexico, is that there are hundreds of regional varieties - varieties that grow best in unique ecosystems where small villages grow these varieties and where corn is a staple food item. In the highlands with plenty of water, other regions where it is hot; short growing seasons. Corn for flour, roasted ears or on the cob. Also, the main reason is that GMO corn must always be sown with new seed - not with seed corn saved from the last harvest. If GMO corn replaced all the regional varieties, small farmers in small villages in remote parts of Mexico would be dependent on a US Multinational with limited options and at a price that is likely prohibitive. More importantly, once GMO corn is introduced, the regional varieties that have thrived for hundreds of years, and tended by families, would disappear forever. It's not a leap to assume that many people would go hungry if they were unable to grow their own corn, being unable or unwilling to take the GMO option. In Chiapas the Zapatistas have a seed bank to preserve the many strains of corn grown in the area. There was a movement years ago for supportive individuals in Mexico and the US to take corn, plant it and then send the corn to the seed bank. Not sure, but I think this effort is ongoing. The seed bank requires a regulated temperature and careful storage. On a global basis, GMO strains grown where they shouldn't have long-term consequences detrimental to the ultimate goal of feeding humans.

Skipjack Joe - 8-1-2015 at 08:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by brewer  
The house passed a bill denying people the right to know. I think that is wrong. You should be able to make a choice between GMO and non-GMO foods if you want. It's bull$ it.


Bingo.

This is the only post that addresses the issue. The question is not whether GMOs are safe or not. The question is whether we have a right to know of their presence. The House has voted to withhold information from the public. I find that outrageous. This is not a question of national security. The public has a right to know. We are not a police state. This is not the Soviet Union.

The fear must be that some will not purchase the GMOs. That's a right the consumer should have. If the non GMO is more expensive the buyer can decide how to spend his money.



[Edited on 8-1-2015 by Skipjack Joe]

SFandH - 8-1-2015 at 09:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by brewer  
The house passed a bill denying people the right to know. I think that is wrong. You should be able to make a choice between GMO and non-GMO foods if you want. It's bull$ it.


Bingo.

This is the only post that addresses the issue. The question is not whether GMOs are safe or not. The question is whether we have a right to know of their presence. The House has voted to withhold information from the public. I find that outrageous. This is not a question of national security. The public has a right to know. We are not a police state. This is not the Soviet Union.

The fear must be that some will not purchase the GMOs. That's a right the consumer should have. If the non GMO is more expensive the buyer can decide how to spend his money.

[Edited on 8-1-2015 by Skipjack Joe]


Yes that is the original issue and then the subject veered to safety. But the two (labeling and safety) are related. To be the devil's advocate, if GMOs were in fact safe, wouldn't the labeling be an unnecessary expense borne by the consumer? Also, doesn't labeling imply an unsafe aspect?

And then the third aspect is the disruption to the natural seed supply, as wilderone pointed out, and the fact that farmers that use Monsanto patented seeds can't save seeds from a harvest to use the next year. They have to buy seeds again. I think that is bulchit too.

[Edited on 8-1-2015 by SFandH]

SFandH - 8-1-2015 at 09:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie  


Sort of an aside, we Farmer Ranchers seldom buy meats from place like Walmart because we see what happens to it after we deliver it to the feed lots....




[Edited on 8-1-2015 by SFandH]

Skipjack Joe - 8-1-2015 at 09:25 AM

To me the lack of labeling implies protection for the seller.

If the GMOs are safe than what does the seller have to fear? No. Implication is not an argument. That is the sort of argument a police state uses. It hides information for the BENEFIT of its citizens. That's not a road we want to follow.

In my view the right thing to do is to label them correctly and then provide the data and arguments that it is safe.

Isn't there a Ralph Nader out there? I thought this country had grown past this.

SFandH - 8-1-2015 at 10:06 AM

This is from Public Citizen, founded by Ralph Nader.

The US biotech industry is trying to undo the European Union's GMO labeling requirements.

http://www.citizen.org/documents/TAFTA-GMO-factsheet.pdf



bajalearner - 8-1-2015 at 10:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaRat  
Once again it's money before ethics and that's been the business model for a long time... We aren't even touching the ecological and environmental impact that is undeniably taking place as a result of these chemicals and practices.
Those Dems and Reps have done their masters proud once again and like Pavlov's Dog their eagerly waiting to push the button for another campaign contribution.
All we asked for was a choice and they wouldn't give it to us.
They have made it pretty obvious they represent Big Business Not The Consumer :fire:


Bajarat, with all due respect, I know I need to eat everyday and I'm competing with 5 billion other people for food (FIVE BILLION). I choose not to have a garden or farm or raise animals for food.

I'm thinking uncle Jed and aunt Bea would not be able to produce enough food for everyone if it were left up to them.

I have found more food than I need at every American or Mexican grocery store I've been to. I don't blame companies for providing enough food to feed 5 billion people. Yes,they do it for profit. They do it to take home a paycheck to buy the same food that I do so they can feed their families.

I've eaten for 61 years and still alive, even very healthy. My life expectancy age continues to rise.

If there's a way to provide enough food for 5 billion people without controlling pests or adding nuetrients to the soil, we should probably try that. Oh wait, we did try that, I forgot. We learned needed to find ways to produce more affordable food.

And just wait...more mouths to feed arrive every second. The "money before ethics" arguement is short sighted, maybe evern blind to reality.

wessongroup - 8-1-2015 at 12:05 PM

The production of food and fiber for all isn't something that is easy ... rather very difficult from many, many aspects

Production AG as it currently exists is about the only way we® can feed the entire world population, and that is very hard even with all the "tools" available

And it is very difficult to make some of these Health and/or Environmental calls ... unless there is immediate threat to health and/or the environment

About the best one can do ... is to set levels of exposure which are "deemed" as reasonable ... and good luck with that one

The best example lately ... the Supreme Courts Ruling on "emissions" from the burning of coal to produce power

About all one can hope for ... keep the ship of state heading up stream .. in the "middle" ... and that one isn't easy either

As for Roundup ... it was classified as a Class C carcinogen back in 85 ..

"1985: The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) was aware of the herbicide’s ability to cause cancer 30 years ago, even categorizing it as a ‘Class C Carcinogen.” Class C carcinogens have “suggestive evidence of carcinogenic potential.”

Read more: http://www.care2.com/greenliving/epa-classified-roundup-as-c...

Overall .. eating BBQ meat poses great risk to cancer than Roundup ... just saying

"enzo(a)pyrene (BaP) is a polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon (PAH) that is a byproduct of incomplete combustion or burning of organic (carbon-containing) items, e.g., cigarettes, gasoline, and wood (1). Pure BaP crystals are pale yellow and needlelike with a faint odor (1). BaP is commonly found with other PAHs in cigarette smoke, in grilled and broiled foods, and as a by-product of many industrial processes (1). BaP is also found in ambient (outdoor) air, indoor air, and in some water sources (1)."

http://www.epa.gov/teach/chem_summ/BaP_summary.pdf

And we will be BBQing some meat today ... :biggrin::biggrin:

And some fruit and vegetables that have undergone a Botran wash and a few other things ...

http://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/ppls/010163-00226...

What me worry ... :lol::lol:

[Edited on 8-1-2015 by wessongroup]

chuckie - 8-1-2015 at 12:29 PM

Me too...Ribs....Roundup, GMO's Pesticides, Herbicides, Hormones, Fertilizers are facts of life...Add to that, not enough water, too much water, Hail etc. and the AG equation becomes even more complex. Pressure is always on to produce more, keep costs down and do it to standards set by people who don't do it for a living. All in all I think big AG does a pretty fair job of getting it done....And American AG better than anyone. Not perfectly, and often not the way we would like to, but not bad....

SFandH - 8-1-2015 at 12:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by chuckie  


Roundup, GMO's Pesticides, Herbicides, Hormones, Fertilizers are facts of life.


Naw, come on. People should have the option of avoiding toxic chemicals if they want to.

It may be a little late to make a difference for older people but what about if you had a newborn to feed. Wouldn't you want to know if the first solid food out of those little jars contains Roundup? Wesson posted it's a known carcinogen and with the new Monsanto seeds farmers can apply it directly to the crop. Scientific studies have shown it's showing up in the food. This is something new, not a "fact of life".

chuckie - 8-1-2015 at 01:30 PM

It is now, isn't it...? A fact of life....You think its going to change back? Eat organic, you have that choice.....Exercise it....

wessongroup - 8-1-2015 at 03:35 PM

Well we could always talk about the toxins in women's beauty products ... derived from animal rendering :biggrin::biggrin:

And what ya gonna do with all of that waste stream ... if ya remove rendering plants from operation

It's much better now than it was back in the 60s and 70s ... comparatively speaking .. .:biggrin::biggrin:

Some of the materials found and their levels were shocking ... to most at that time ...

A lot of feed stuffs "used" to get shipped to Japan, before Japan really got into raising Kobe Beef in the 80s and 90s

Cubers would ship boat loads of anything "green" with no sampling ... for chemical residue ... that changed, and growers started just burning "bean straw" rather than "cube it" (then that got cut down through burn days, air pollution) ... It was, for a while a substitute for Alfalfa "cubes" for feed going to Japan ..

Haven't a clue where Japan is getting their feed anymore, don't think they are "growing" it at home... space thing ya know .. hell they don't even have enough room to store highly radio active waste :lol::lol:

Just think when America and/or the United States has 3 billion people ... where ya going to "grow" the feed for animals ... :biggrin::biggrin: .. not even talking about those other things needed .. just find some good "dirt" to grow in

We were growing our own stuff for a while, using the "Square Foot " gardening, but, old age and laziness took over ... The phone and home delivery's are hard to beat :):)

Saw where Taco Bell will be hiring drivers ... WOW .. brings back the 50s and 60s ... Home delivery's of: Chicken, Pizza, Chinese .. et al .. those were the days

Golly wonder if a Prius will be required of drivers :biggrin::biggrin:

And speaking of AG Production and water ...

Overpumping of Central Valley groundwater creating a crisis, experts say

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-groundwater-20...

[Edited on 8-1-2015 by wessongroup]

chuckie - 8-1-2015 at 04:19 PM

I believe a simple sign in all Grocery stores saying " Hey theres stuff in almost everything in here that's bad for you, so be aware" That would save the consumer added cost of labeling every product..Kalifornia water?Most of the state never should have had water anyhow...some "Gimme" program back when started all that....Our family farmed tomatoes, cotton, almonds near Chowchilla and lotsa rice Colusa and cattle south of Carmel...Since we didn't have a lot of dumb kids, started getting out in the late 60's...By the mid 70's all gone..Couple Uncles, Clive and Walter went to New Zealand...Some of the rest of us got eddicated and went into Techy stuff....The smart ones just spent the money...NOT in Kalifornia.....I am over 80 now and can just sit back and Kibbitz.....A real mess, we are in I agree....Ribs are good!

Bajahowodd - 8-1-2015 at 04:44 PM

I'm reminded that I have a question. Since the vast majority of corn is GMO, and the vast majority of corn is used to make ethanol, with the shale oil boom, why do we even need ethanol in our motor fuels, especially since it impedes efficiency?

Seems to me to be nothing but corporate welfare.

chuckie - 8-1-2015 at 05:02 PM

Food for fuel is dumb....

bledito - 8-1-2015 at 05:38 PM

ya should now talk about all the steroids in or meat and milk

chuckie - 8-1-2015 at 05:52 PM

Already did....

55steve - 8-1-2015 at 06:34 PM

A controversial subject with intelligent thought sharing - this gives me hope.

wessongroup - 8-1-2015 at 10:21 PM

As does this ......

Physicists Restart Souped-Up Hadron Collider

http://www.wsj.com/articles/physicists-restart-souped-up-had...

We must develop "new" technology ... in order to solve our current problems

toneart - 8-1-2015 at 10:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by brewer  
The house passed a bill denying people the right to know. I think that is wrong. You should be able to make a choice between GMO and non-GMO foods if you want. It's bull$ it.


Bingo.

This is the only post that addresses the issue. The question is not whether GMOs are safe or not. The question is whether we have a right to know of their presence. The House has voted to withhold information from the public. I find that outrageous. This is not a question of national security. The public has a right to know. We are not a police state. This is not the Soviet Union.

The fear must be that some will not purchase the GMOs. That's a right the consumer should have. If the non GMO is more expensive the buyer can decide how to spend his money.

[Edited on 8-1-2015 by Skipjack Joe]


Yes that is the original issue and then the subject veered to safety. But the two (labeling and safety) are related. To be the devil's advocate, if GMOs were in fact safe, wouldn't the labeling be an unnecessary expense borne by the consumer? Also, doesn't labeling imply an unsafe aspect?

And then the third aspect is the disruption to the natural seed supply, as wilderone pointed out, and the fact that farmers that use Monsanto patented seeds can't save seeds from a harvest to use the next year. They have to buy seeds again. I think that is bulchit too.

[Edited on 8-1-2015 by SFandH]



The original issue in my first post that started this topic was indeed the right to choose what we put into our bodies. We need labeling and the government has let us down.

However, as SFandH states, "But the two (labeling and safety) are related." In further discussions, I have given my personal reasons for wanting (needing) labeling, and also my concerns for safety. In my opinion, Monsanto is poisoning the world for profit.The Roundup factor really puts the safety issue way over the top!

Others here have eloquently advanced this discussion, and quite civilly, at that. Thank you all.

Many will choose to not worry about any of this and continue to eat all foods. That is their choice. Until my illness, I ate just about anything and would probably have continued. It is easier to not be concerned; to believe that it can't happen to you. And then the unthinkable happens...it happens to you.

SFandH said in an earlier post that GMOs are not the only hazard that is lurking in our environment. What in Hell are we doing to this fragile planet?




wessongroup - 8-2-2015 at 10:30 AM

Bingo ... that is the really hard question, from "progress"

Given what we are seeing .... it is a "double edged sword"

Again thanks and good to see you're still kicking :):)



[Edited on 8-2-2015 by wessongroup]

BajaRat - 8-2-2015 at 11:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
Quote: Originally posted by chuckie  


Roundup, GMO's Pesticides, Herbicides, Hormones, Fertilizers are facts of life.


Naw, come on. People should have the option of avoiding toxic chemicals if they want to.

It may be a little late to make a difference for older people but what about if you had a newborn to feed. Wouldn't you want to know if the first solid food out of those little jars contains Roundup? Wesson posted it's a known carcinogen and with the new Monsanto seeds farmers can apply it directly to the crop. Scientific studies have shown it's showing up in the food. This is something new, not a "fact of life".



Those things are a fact of life because our government put big business before our well being, and yes that's money before ethics.
What this decision has done is hide the potential dangers from those that have a right to know, the paying consumer.
Corn has meant survival in the Americas for thousands of years with great success and would have continued to do so without Monsanto's intervention. On the contrary corn heirlooms are becoming increasingly difficult to find without traces of GMO contamination here in the USA where our politicians have allowed these practices.
By removing the diversity in food production we are putting all our proverbial eggs in one basket, big ag's basket. We prefer to put our food supply in many baskets and that"s without the use of toxic pesticides, herbicides and chemical fertilizers. Without disclosing the contents of our food products we have removed one more freedom from the public's arsenal. One more freedom from choice seems to be the trend for the officials we have elected to rule us.
GMO's are destroying our heritage and heirlooms. And I personally find the health implications of the toxins they allow to be introduced and found acceptable in our environment and bodies to be shameful.




wessongroup - 8-2-2015 at 04:25 PM

All pesticides and/or Economic Poisions require Registration with first the EPA and then in many cases with State Regulatory Agencies

Prior to registration, R & D and/or a Data Package SHALL be submitted for review, prior to the granting of Registration by the EPA and in many cases with states

Additionally "tolerances" are set for residues on Food products

"A study to determine chronic exposures of mammals to glyphosate observed no cellular changes in mice fed glyphosate at a concentration up to 300 ppm in the diet for 18 months (U.S. Department of Agriculture, 1981). A 2-year chronic study conducted using Sprague-Dawley rats (males) fed 0, 89, 362, and 940 mg/kg/day of glyphosate observed effects only in the high-dose group, indicating that for this study, the no observable effects limit (NOEL) for systemic toxicity is 362 mg/kg/day (8000 ppm), and the lowest observable effects limit (LOEL) is 940 mg/kg/day (20,000 ppm)( (Franz et al. 1997). When glyphosate is formulated as in Roundup®, Vision®, or Accord®, it becomes slightly more toxic to animal species due to the presence of surfactants. A study by Folmar et al., 1979, compared the toxicity of glyphosate and a formulation product to larvae, and found that the formulation was more toxic. The EC50 of the formulation was 13 ppm compared to an EC50 of 55 ppm for glyphosate. In a study conducted for the U.S. EPA’s RED, the formulated product MONO818 was found to be slightly toxic to the invertebrate Daphnia magna and moderately toxic to rainbow trout."

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/glyphos.pdf

It should be noted, that most "growers" do not use Roundup directly to most crops ... due to the "mode of action" of the AI ... Active Ingredient ... which is a non selective herbicide resulting in the death of the plant

The material is used with great care in CA ... do to the "patch work" of various crops adjacent to sites of application which may be damaged from its use .... Not to mention the COST of the material ... back when it first came out ... It was one of the most expensive products on the "market" at the time .. until the patient dropped off ... Monsanto made a bundle off it while they had the patient ... and being a forward looking Corporation ... saw the handwriting on the wall back in the 70s ... and started doing work on the "genetic" side of things with all the "majors" buying up seed companies as fast as they could ...

Many saw it as "positive" ... I was in a minority .. as I did NOT .. go figure

Would again say that overall exposure to the material posses low "immediate risk" ... However, from the toxicological standpoint .. the impact on future generations of humans, is an open question IMHO .. when one considers the amount of "chemistry" we are associated with, at this time, in our daily lives ...

Not sure what effect Roundup and "Jack Daniels" ... et al .. will have on one, I'm still kicking :biggrin::biggrin:

Just lucky .. I guess :lol::lol:

The call was made by the Supreme Court ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_v._Chakrabarty



[Edited on 8-2-2015 by wessongroup]

SFandH - 8-3-2015 at 07:49 AM

It's good to know there was only slight to moderate toxicity with rats, fleas, and rainbow trout........:o

Also,

It should be noted, that most "growers" do not use Roundup directly to most crops ... due to the "mode of action" of the AI ... Active Ingredient ... which is a non selective herbicide resulting in the death of the plant.

No longer true with the Roundup resistant Monsanto seeds.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-monsantos-roundup-pestici...



[Edited on 8-3-2015 by SFandH]

wessongroup - 8-3-2015 at 02:50 PM

Typically the "majors" look at the market they are making a before committing R & D on a new product

And use the same rule of thumb most business use, the 80/20 rule, 80% of a business comes from 20% of their sales and/or market they sell to

They do not attempt in most cases to obtain registration for ALL food crops ... as the costs don't pencil ... and Sec 18's can be requested under law to address specific needs ... rather than redo an entire data package and/or additional R & D ..

I'm not for GMO seeds ... for a number of reasons ... however, in the case of this particular chemical used in crop production .. the overall risk from cancer would still appear very low, as it is still classified as a Class C Carcinogen ..

http://www.regulations.gov/#%21documentDetail;D=EPA-HQ-OPP-2012-0132-0009

And yes, our: water, soil and air is impacted by this chemical along with ALL chemicals used in the production of Food and Fiber ... it is back to the "risk" to health and/or environment as identified in the "field" real time while at the same time insuring we can keep the production of Food and Fiber at the same, if not greater levels to feed, cloth and comply with treaties we® have other Nations in the World

It's is a tough nut to crack ... farming and chemicals while insuring production with acceptable risk to Health and the Environment

Think this materials usage may be going down a bit in CA, given the drought ... but then, food production will be going down too ...:):)

sorry the link has characters which end up giving a smiley .. cut and paste to get to the report


[Edited on 8-3-2015 by wessongroup]

Widely Used Herbicide Linked to Cancer

SFandH - 8-3-2015 at 04:14 PM


From Scientific American, I think a reputable source.

"Glyphosate is the world’s most widely produced herbicide, by volume. It is used extensively in agriculture and is also found in garden products in many countries. "

Glyphosate is the active ingredient in Roundup.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/widely-used-herbic...

But as Chuckie said, we have the option of finding special stores that sell organic produce and paying a higher price. :(

bajabuddha - 8-3-2015 at 05:10 PM

If it weren't for Roundup i'd have a goat-head farm.

GMO's you're stuck with, unless you have a good income, a Whole Foods or Trader Joe's in your larger town.

I'm not going to be narcissistic enough to worry about it, because none of us are getting out of here alive anyway. If the produce looks fresh and the price is right, I buy what I see when I shop. Same with the meats. Isn't there enough in your daily lives to give you the Hershey squirts without worrying about the boogeyman? In the event you have a health problem, especially an immune system disorder, I fully agree with 'smart(er) shopping. Otherwise, spend more time enjoying what's in front of you than what's behind you.

My tonight's pot roast, spuds, carrots and onions (AND home-made gravy that I do declare is fairly scrumptious) came from a cow and the ground; the rest, I .... DON'T ...... CARE.

I've had too many 'debates' that became very short-lived on this subject while the people who are opponents to GMO's rant and rail while they put out their cigarettes.

wessongroup - 8-3-2015 at 08:07 PM

"opponents to GMO's rant and rail while they put out their cigarettes. " :lol::lol:

chuckie - 8-4-2015 at 01:19 AM

While enjoying their distilled spirits!

SFandH - 8-4-2015 at 08:14 AM

Ok, ok. I'll stop reading/posting about this stuff.

Later on when I have a fresh pack of smokes and a 12 pack of ice cold Tecate Light I'll pick a baja related topic to write about. :biggrin:

chuckie - 8-4-2015 at 08:46 AM

:biggrin::biggrin:

wessongroup - 8-4-2015 at 08:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
Ok, ok. I'll stop reading/posting about this stuff.

Later on when I have a fresh pack of smokes and a 12 pack of ice cold Tecate Light I'll pick a baja related topic to write about. :biggrin:


You just did ... :biggrin::biggrin:

WOW an ice chest of beer sounds good to me, along with a good cigar ... my weekends never end :):)

[Edited on 8-4-2015 by wessongroup]

Ateo - 8-4-2015 at 10:45 AM

Here are some facts on MonSATAN (hahahaha) and GMO's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tc8gtZgGko

I'm pro science. Follow the evidence no matter where it leads.




Did you hear the interview with Bill Nye recently where he changes his mind on GMO's? It's a great listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIPeOuSiXu4

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/11/bill-nye-gmos-chang...




So much misinformation out there.

Here's a rebuttal to some of their claims:

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/gmos-and-making...

"Dedicated anti-science groups engage in a number of methods to maintain their propaganda upstream against the scientific evidence. It’s actually not difficult- people are generally very good at motivated reasoning. We can demonize or lionize anything.

Methods include dismissing scientific studies whose conclusions you don’t like, supporting low quality studies you do like, misinterpreting and distorting other studies, and of course cherry picking. Sometimes, however, dedicated activists seem to literally make up studies out of whole cloth, or ideological scientists perform dubious studies to create fodder for their side.

This week on the SGU we interview Kevin Folta (the show will be published tomorrow) about some of his experiences with anti-GMO activists who have no problem making up the science to advance their ideological agenda. The more I look into anti-GMO activism the more I realize that the anti-vaccine movement has nothing on them when it comes to pseudoscience. Their methods are identical. The only real difference is that anti-GMO propaganda is much more mainstream.

The latest episode concerns Dr. V.A. Shiva Ayyadurai, who recently published a study claiming that there are high levels of formaldehyde in GMO soy. I did a Goggle search for “GMO Soy Formaldehyde” and the first hit was this: GMO Soy Accumulates Carcinogenic Formaldehyde: Game-Changing Study. The anti-GMO crowd is making a lot of hay with their latest “proof” that all GMOs are evil.

Let’s take a closer look at Ayyadurai and his study. Kavin Senapathy at the Genetic Literacy Project has some more information. She notes that Ayyadurai has four degrees from MIT, but none in food science or genetics. This is not a quibble – it is very common for ideological scientists to be operating outside of their area of expertise.

Much more importantly, however, it turns out that Ayyadurai’s study is not an analysis of GMO soy, it is a computer model. That’s it. He made a computer model that predicts that GMO soy should accumulate formaldehyde using what is called “systems biology.”

Kevin explains on his own blog that such computer models are only as good as the inputs. If the assumed data is not robust and sufficient, computer models based on that data are worthless. It is also easy to manipulate the inputs to create a desired result.

In other words, Ayyadurai’s study is utter crap. Kevin writes:

“The bottom line is, corn is probably the most biochemically dissected plants in terms of composition. Soy too. There is no evidence ever published or otherwise reported in a legit place that shows a difference in formaldehyde between GM and non-GM varieties of anything. These authors could have tested their prediction, and maybe they did, but there is no evidence of formaldehyde ever reported.”

They never tested their predictions, which means their model has not been validated in any way. Further, the predictions made by their model go against what scientific evidence we already have.

I should further note that formaldehyde, while scary sounding, is a natural byproduct of metabolism and exists in many foods. Here is a table listing the amount of formaldehyde in common foods. It’s nothing to worry about – go ahead and eat those chitake mushrooms.

The paper itself is poor science. The authors do not spell out details critical to the analysis. Further, there are conflicts of interest galore (anti-science groups only seem to mention those when they apply to the government or corporations they don’t like). As Kevin reports:

First, what do we know about International Center for Integrative Systems? Certainly sounds impressive! Turns out it is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization, surprise, started by the lead author. They have a variety of projects, including one that seeks to define standards for raw and organic food. A little poking around the website and the agenda is showing.

Conflicts of interest are OK, apparently, if the interest is yours. We see this among anti-vaxxers as well, who seem totally unbothered by Andrew Wakefield’s blatant conflicts.

Kevin has offered to actually test the levels of formaldehyde in GMO soy. This would be another test of the computer model. Ayyadurai so far has refused to participate – he seems completely uninterested in testing his model directly.

Conclusion

Good skeptics should be concerned first and foremost with method. Skepticism is not a set of beliefs (or non-beliefs), it is dedication to using methods that are fair, valid, logical, and evidence-based when evaluating any empirical claim.

I understand that some people have legitimate claims about the food industry and Big Agriculture. Despite the fact that I commonly address anti-corporate pseudoscience, I do not consider myself a defender of corporations. I am trying to defend good science and skeptical reasoning. In fact I think that corporations generally have highly effective and well-funded departments dedicated to motivated reasoning and lobbying the government toward their interests. We need effective watchdogs and we need to call industries and corporations on their BS.

That is why pseudoscientific campaigns cause even more harm – they actual hamper effective industry watchdogs by tainting the enterprise with pseudoscience and conspiracy theories. They suck all the air out of the room, making it more difficult to have a good conversation about effective regulations, because we have to spend our time countering rank nonsense and misinformation.

When it comes to the issue of GMO I feel like we don’t yet have our head above water. Greenpeace, the massive organic lobby, and other anti-GMO groups have dominated the propaganda for too long, and they have effectively confused the public over GMO issues.

Skeptics, however, are leading the way toward change. As Kevin pointed out in the interview for this week, 10 years ago he would be the lone voice of reason in the comments section of an article on GMOs. Now an army of skeptical nerds will often get there before he does, effectively making the points that need to be made.

But we are not there yet."

wessongroup - 8-4-2015 at 02:23 PM

Some just don't care about those concerns ... :):)


chuckie - 8-4-2015 at 02:38 PM

If I remember correctly, the bars in Vietnam used to add formeldahyde (sp) to beer? If so , those of us were there, are immune....Unless of course you were in the Air Force...They generally never left the base and drank tea (organic) with their Pinkies lifted....

toneart - 8-4-2015 at 02:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Here are some facts on MonSATAN (hahahaha) and GMO's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tc8gtZgGko

I'm pro science. Follow the evidence no matter where it leads.




Did you hear the interview with Bill Nye recently where he changes his mind on GMO's? It's a great listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIPeOuSiXu4

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/11/bill-nye-gmos-chang...




So much misinformation out there.

Here's a rebuttal to some of their claims:

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/gmos-and-making...

"Dedicated anti-science groups engage in a number of methods to maintain their propaganda upstream against the scientific evidence. It’s actually not difficult- people are generally very good at motivated reasoning. We can demonize or lionize anything.

Methods include dismissing scientific studies whose conclusions you don’t like, supporting low quality studies you do like, misinterpreting and distorting other studies, and of course cherry picking. Sometimes, however, dedicated activists seem to literally make up studies out of whole cloth, or ideological scientists perform dubious studies to create fodder for their side.

This week on the SGU we interview Kevin Folta (the show will be published tomorrow) about some of his experiences with anti-GMO activists who have no problem making up the science to advance their ideological agenda. The more I look into anti-GMO activism the more I realize that the anti-vaccine movement has nothing on them when it comes to pseudoscience. Their methods are identical. The only real difference is that anti-GMO propaganda is much more mainstream.

The latest episode concerns Dr. V.A. Shiva Ayyadurai, who recently published a study claiming that there are high levels of formaldehyde in GMO soy. I did a Goggle search for “GMO Soy Formaldehyde” and the first hit was this: GMO Soy Accumulates Carcinogenic Formaldehyde: Game-Changing Study. The anti-GMO crowd is making a lot of hay with their latest “proof” that all GMOs are evil.

Let’s take a closer look at Ayyadurai and his study. Kavin Senapathy at the Genetic Literacy Project has some more information. She notes that Ayyadurai has four degrees from MIT, but none in food science or genetics. This is not a quibble – it is very common for ideological scientists to be operating outside of their area of expertise.

Much more importantly, however, it turns out that Ayyadurai’s study is not an analysis of GMO soy, it is a computer model. That’s it. He made a computer model that predicts that GMO soy should accumulate formaldehyde using what is called “systems biology.”

Kevin explains on his own blog that such computer models are only as good as the inputs. If the assumed data is not robust and sufficient, computer models based on that data are worthless. It is also easy to manipulate the inputs to create a desired result.

In other words, Ayyadurai’s study is utter crap. Kevin writes:

“The bottom line is, corn is probably the most biochemically dissected plants in terms of composition. Soy too. There is no evidence ever published or otherwise reported in a legit place that shows a difference in formaldehyde between GM and non-GM varieties of anything. These authors could have tested their prediction, and maybe they did, but there is no evidence of formaldehyde ever reported.”

They never tested their predictions, which means their model has not been validated in any way. Further, the predictions made by their model go against what scientific evidence we already have.

I should further note that formaldehyde, while scary sounding, is a natural byproduct of metabolism and exists in many foods. Here is a table listing the amount of formaldehyde in common foods. It’s nothing to worry about – go ahead and eat those chitake mushrooms.

The paper itself is poor science. The authors do not spell out details critical to the analysis. Further, there are conflicts of interest galore (anti-science groups only seem to mention those when they apply to the government or corporations they don’t like). As Kevin reports:

First, what do we know about International Center for Integrative Systems? Certainly sounds impressive! Turns out it is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization, surprise, started by the lead author. They have a variety of projects, including one that seeks to define standards for raw and organic food. A little poking around the website and the agenda is showing.

Conflicts of interest are OK, apparently, if the interest is yours. We see this among anti-vaxxers as well, who seem totally unbothered by Andrew Wakefield’s blatant conflicts.

Kevin has offered to actually test the levels of formaldehyde in GMO soy. This would be another test of the computer model. Ayyadurai so far has refused to participate – he seems completely uninterested in testing his model directly.

Conclusion

Good skeptics should be concerned first and foremost with method. Skepticism is not a set of beliefs (or non-beliefs), it is dedication to using methods that are fair, valid, logical, and evidence-based when evaluating any empirical claim.

I understand that some people have legitimate claims about the food industry and Big Agriculture. Despite the fact that I commonly address anti-corporate pseudoscience, I do not consider myself a defender of corporations. I am trying to defend good science and skeptical reasoning. In fact I think that corporations generally have highly effective and well-funded departments dedicated to motivated reasoning and lobbying the government toward their interests. We need effective watchdogs and we need to call industries and corporations on their BS.

That is why pseudoscientific campaigns cause even more harm – they actual hamper effective industry watchdogs by tainting the enterprise with pseudoscience and conspiracy theories. They suck all the air out of the room, making it more difficult to have a good conversation about effective regulations, because we have to spend our time countering rank nonsense and misinformation.

When it comes to the issue of GMO I feel like we don’t yet have our head above water. Greenpeace, the massive organic lobby, and other anti-GMO groups have dominated the propaganda for too long, and they have effectively confused the public over GMO issues.

Skeptics, however, are leading the way toward change. As Kevin pointed out in the interview for this week, 10 years ago he would be the lone voice of reason in the comments section of an article on GMOs. Now an army of skeptical nerds will often get there before he does, effectively making the points that need to be made.

But we are not there yet."


Thank you Ateo, and all others...

Skeptic? Of course! I am a damaged skeptic, both medically and from the anti-science crowd. Being right tempers the damage though, (or is that, damages the temper?). :smug::lol:

In no way do I criticize anybody who chooses a different dietary path for themselves. It is good that they have a choice. It is more complicated for me though. I don't always have a clear choice because the government hides the truth by not labeling
GMO content. :mad:

Ateo - 8-4-2015 at 03:27 PM

Tony, always nice to see your posts. You are such a gentleman.


Ateo - 8-4-2015 at 03:43 PM

An excellent summary on GMO's:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...


Unhealthy Fixation

The war against genetically modified organisms is full of fearmongering, errors, and fraud. Labeling them will not make you safer

bezzell - 8-11-2015 at 07:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajalearner  


Bajarat, with all due respect, I know I need to eat everyday and I'm competing with 5 billion other people for food (FIVE BILLION).


wtf. Are you implying there's 2.3 BILLION 'breatherians' that walk amongst us!!??

http://www.poodwaddle.com/worldclock/

(1 MILLION (NET!) additional humans turn up on this planet every 4.5-5 days)
Enjoy it while we can.

[Edited on 8-11-2015 by bezzell]

Chupacabra - 8-11-2015 at 09:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  


I'm pro science. Follow the evidence no matter where it leads.



+1

As a scientist with a Ph.D. in organic chemistry and 20+ years in medical and biotechnology research, I've never seen any credible research to back up the anti-GMO claims.

GMO concerns are mostly a first-world problem for wealthy folk who suffer from overeating and obesity rather than starvation. For poor people in areas such as sub-Saharan Africa, drought- and disease-resistant GMO crops mean the difference between life and death. In that respect, Monsanto saves more lives than the Red Cross.

That said, I support labeling GMO products as such. Why not?

gnukid - 8-11-2015 at 10:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bezzell  
Quote: Originally posted by bajalearner  


Bajarat, with all due respect, I know I need to eat everyday and I'm competing with 5 billion other people for food (FIVE BILLION).


wtf. Are you implying there's 2.3 BILLION 'breatherians' that walk amongst us!!??

http://www.poodwaddle.com/worldclock/

(1 MILLION (NET!) additional humans turn up on this planet every 4.5-5 days)
Enjoy it while we can.

[Edited on 8-11-2015 by bezzell]



Global population is decreasing according to US Census



worldgr.gif - 10kB

Chupacabra - 8-11-2015 at 10:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  

Global population is decreasing according to US Census



That chart refers to growth rate (i.e. how fast the population is growing). The population is still growing, just at a slower rate.

In an absolute sense, a very large population growing at a slower rate is just as impactful as a small population growing at a faster rate.

Chupacabra - 8-11-2015 at 10:07 AM

The interesting thing about that chart is that it may show the impact of the birth control pill on population growth rates. The Pill was introduced in the 1960's.

gnukid - 8-11-2015 at 10:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Chupacabra  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  


I'm pro science. Follow the evidence no matter where it leads.



+1

As a scientist with a Ph.D. in organic chemistry and 20+ years in medical and biotechnology research, I've never seen any credible research to back up the anti-GMO claims.

GMO concerns are mostly a first-world problem for wealthy folk who suffer from overeating and obesity rather than starvation. For poor people in areas such as sub-Saharan Africa, drought- and disease-resistant GMO crops mean the difference between life and death. In that respect, Monsanto saves more lives than the Red Cross.

That said, I support labeling GMO products as such. Why not?


You haven't seen research testing that show harmful affects of GMO because FDA does not require testing of GMO foods which is the issue of concern. Why not?

https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/five-ways-fda-has-fail...

While internationally people are calling for GMO research and testing to be required by the FDA instead of "voluntary consulting".

There is a body of research that shows that some GMOs do cause health issues, obviously one must take each on a case by case basis.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/prop37/pages/67/attach...

bezzell - 8-11-2015 at 11:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  

Global population is decreasing according to US Census


WTF!!? That's growth RATE.
ye gods man! No wonder you're on the same page as Snr Shell Island re climate. (The brain is fueled by GLUCOSE. SUGAR!!) Eat copious amounts of whole plant-based SUGAR! just sayin' :tumble:

You have any idea what the graph looks like re 8000BC - 1950 ??

wow

Chupacabra - 8-11-2015 at 11:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bezzell  


WTF!!? That's growth RATE.
ye gods man!


I was kinda thinking the same thing but didn't want to be rude. If one doesn't understand the simple mathematical concept of change versus rate of change, then one is probably not equipped to delve into deeper scientific concepts and issues without be highly vulnerable to misleading information and propaganda.

It's important to know what you know, but it's equally important to know what you don't know.

SFandH - 8-11-2015 at 07:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Chupacabra  


As a scientist with a Ph.D. in organic chemistry and 20+ years in medical and biotechnology research, I've never seen any credible research to back up the anti-GMO claims.



I've recently read that the GMO Monsanto seeds that produce plants that are resistant to Roundup and therefore allows farmers to spray Roundup directly on the crops is resulting in food that contains the active ingredient of Roundup in amounts that exceed allowable limits and therefore is illegal to sell. To fix this problem the FDA raised allowable limits.

Does this concern you?

bajabuddha - 8-11-2015 at 07:43 PM

NO.

wilderone - 8-11-2015 at 07:44 PM

"I've never seen any credible research to back up the anti-GMO claims."
You must have your head in the sand.

Farmers are now using more pesticides than a decade ago.
GMO corn has far less nutrition than non-GMO.
GM crop pollen affects insects and other wildlife
Monsanto should not be allowed to poison the earth for profit any longer.

Teach the people in poor countries how to farm sustainably and responsibly. BILLIONS of dollars are given to poor countries - make it count. Hand-outs are not the answer.

http://www.beyondpesticides.org/gmos/reportsandpublications/...

chuckie - 8-11-2015 at 07:46 PM

Me Neither....

SFandH - 8-12-2015 at 07:34 AM

From the National Institute of Health:

"Upon the introduction of herbicide tolerant genetically modified organisms (GMOs), designed to tolerate Roundup and to accumulate unusual levels of its residues, Roundup quickly became the major pesticide in the world and a major food or feed contaminant [10]."

"Roundup was among the most toxic herbicides and insecticides tested. Most importantly, 8 formulations out of 9 were up to one thousand times more toxic than their active principles. Our results challenge the relevance of the acceptable daily intake for pesticides because this norm is calculated from the toxicity of the active principle alone. Chronic tests on pesticides may not reflect relevant environmental exposures if only one ingredient of these mixtures is tested alone."

"It is commonly believed that Roundup is among the safest pesticides. This idea is spread by manufacturers, mostly in the reviews they promote [39, 40], which are often cited in toxicological evaluations of glyphosate-based herbicides. However, Roundup was found in this experiment to be 125 times more toxic than glyphosate. Moreover, despite its reputation, Roundup was by far the most toxic among the herbicides and insecticides tested. This inconsistency between scientific fact and industrial claim may be attributed to huge economic interests, which have been found to falsify health risk assessments and delay health policy decisions [41]."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3955666/

ncampion - 8-12-2015 at 08:13 AM

If you can believe the anti-GMO literature, it's amazing that we're all still alive.

wilderone - 8-12-2015 at 10:12 AM

"If you can believe the anti-GMO literature, it's amazing that we're all still alive."
Or you're not eating a lot of GMO corn and soybeans, and using GMO-tainted corn oil, etc. We have choices in supermarkets, which is why some people eat organic, and why it is IMPORTANT TO LABLE GMO foods, read labels and know where our food is coming from. We may be alive, but the earth is dying, and people are on more medications than ever. Polluted farmland, rivers, air, oceans. We can't ignore these things forever.


SFandH - 8-12-2015 at 10:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ncampion  
If you can believe the anti-GMO literature, it's amazing that we're all still alive.


Well, you can still be alive and have a tumor blossoming in the middle of your brain.

I wasn't concerned about GMOs because of my ignorance about the subject. Then toneart brought it up and I did a bit of reading.

What I'm zeroing in on is not a harmful effect of a GMO per se, but instead the toxicity of the food supply caused by the use of GMO seeds that are resistant to Roundup, thus allowing the application directly upon the food/feed crop which then absorbs the toxin.

The study I referenced above was published last year. This is a relatively new concern.

Be cavalier about it if you like. Or speak up:

http://act.thenhf.com/5948/us-gmo-foods-petition/




[Edited on 8-12-2015 by SFandH]

Chupacabra - 8-12-2015 at 02:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  


I've recently read that the GMO Monsanto seeds that produce plants that are resistant to Roundup and therefore allows farmers to spray Roundup directly on the crops is resulting in food that contains the active ingredient of Roundup in amounts that exceed allowable limits and therefore is illegal to sell. To fix this problem the FDA raised allowable limits.

Does this concern you?


No, not at all.

Glyphosate (Roundup) has been in widespread use since the 1970's, and has been proven to be one of the safest and most environmentally benign pesticides when used responsibly. It has low environmental persistence, and is degraded by soil microorganisms. It's pretty benign stuff.

In other words, almost half a century of use and the horrors have yet to materialize. For example, in 2013 the European Food Safety Authority published a major report that concluded "the data is contradictory and far from convincing." With close to 50 years of widespread manufacturing, formulation, distribution, and use of glyphosate, any safety risks would be abundantly clear.

Anyone can dig up studies where whopping amounts of the substance were applied to cells in a lab (known as in-vitro testing) and something happened, but this is true of almost any substance. You can make anything look toxic in a lab under the right circumstances, even water. The trick is having the knowledge and background to interpret such studies, and understanding that they don't translate into real life 99.9% of the time.

Toxicological evaluation shows that a human must ingest almost half a cup of pure Roundup before seeing any ill effects. So no, I'm not particularly worried about 5 parts per million in a carrot.

Chupacabra - 8-12-2015 at 02:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  

What I'm zeroing in on is not a harmful effect of a GMO per se, but instead the toxicity of the food supply caused by the use of GMO seeds that are resistant to Roundup, thus allowing the application directly upon the food/feed crop which then absorbs the toxin.

The study I referenced above was published last year. This is a relatively new concern.



You misinterpreted the study you referenced. At the risk of sounding douchy, this is what happens when lay people try to interpret primary scientific literature.

Your reference found glyphosate to be relatively harmless to the cell lines tested. What the paper found is that the other, so-called inert ingredients used in pesticide formulations can be toxic to cells. This isn't surprising at all, since these formations may contain inert ingredients such as alcohols, etc.

If you put a drop of rubbing alcohol on these same cells they would all die instantly. In fact, if you put rubbing alcohol (or whisky for that matter) through the battery of tests that glyphosate has been through, it would look like the most dangerous chemical known to man. Obviously rubbing alcohol doesn't cause cancer and isn't an impending environmental disaster.

Chupacabra - 8-12-2015 at 03:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
From the National Institute of Health:



One final thing: You also misinterpreted the source of some of the research you quoted. It's not from the National Institute of Health. The NIH simply runs the website that abstracts scientific journals called PUBMED.

The paper is from a CRIIGEN, which is a French anti-GMO group. Most of the work from the primary author Seralini has already been found to be fraudulent and the papers were retracted by the journal.

Read about it here, and PLEASE carefully consider who you get your information from. You are being lied to, and not be me :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9ralini_affair

This is pretty off-topic for BN so I won't comment further on this thread. I do appreciate that people are thinking about these things, so thank you SFandH and others for the discussion!

bajabuddha - 8-12-2015 at 04:15 PM

21. At Fatburger, you can order a "Hypocrite"€”a veggie burger topped with crispy strips of bacon.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/smart-living/99-amazing-f...

Ateo - 8-12-2015 at 04:22 PM

I want to believe the most amount of true things and the least amount of false things.

Honest investigation and non biased observations have lead me to believe this anti GMO frenzy ain't based in science.

But what do I know?

SFandH - 8-12-2015 at 04:26 PM

Chupacabra,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. You have added reason to doubt the research I posted. And yes, I thought something published, or re-published to be more precise, by the National Institute of Health added to its veracity.

To be clear, I'm focusing upon the safety of Roundup Ready crops made possible by Monsanto's GMO seeds, not the safety of GMOs in general. I would think each genetic modification would need separate analysis.

The "Roundup Ready" concept seems to be inherently a bad idea. That's what makes it a tough sell to the 99.99% of us who are not PhDs and distrust chemical companies.

Another win for Monsanto: US raises allowable levels of company’s pesticide in crops

On the other hand, here is a report discussing the safety of Roundup based upon LD50 and other measurements.

http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/04/30/is-glyphosa...

I read your Wikipedia link. That's quite a story. The researchers had more to their agenda than simply an impartial scientific investigation. I wonder why they are so against GM foods?

Thanks for posting what you did. I'm a bit more informed now.

[Edited on 8-13-2015 by SFandH]