BajaNomad - Can you Help David

Can you Help David

bajatrailrider - 10-18-2015 at 02:07 PM

David we have been exploring new routes from San Quintin to El Rosario.For over 5 years.We have new route,not on any map we have.All the routes East side Highway 1.If you leave SQ going south pavement 1 you get to point where old paved road meets new.Past last bridge from SQ.Right where they meet we go Lt East.Take dirt road back about 50 miles east.Road then ends at our freinds rancho She is Daniel Arce .If you go south many roads go to El Rosario.She told us there is old road Out her rancho going south to Vicente Guerro.Anyway you could find any routes,on your maps.Because we will already be into ride over 50 miles.We will not have room for,out of gas,or daylight.As we are sure there will be many,roads that Y off to dead ends.To use up our fuel,and daylight.Thanks for any help David.We will head out OCT 30. Five bikes,big tanks,carry two spare gal gas.

David K - 10-18-2015 at 03:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider

David we have been exploring new routes from San Quintin to El Rosario.For over 5 years.We have new route,not on any map we have.All the routes East side Highway 1.If you leave SQ going south pavement 1 you get to point where old paved road meets new.Past last bridge from SQ.Right where they meet we go Lt East.Take dirt road back about 50 miles east.Road then ends at our freinds rancho She is Daniel Arce .If you go south many roads go to El Rosario.She told us there is old road Out her rancho going south to Vicente Guerro.Anyway you could find any routes,on your maps.Because we will already be into ride over 50 miles.We will not have room for,out of gas,or daylight.As we are sure there will be many,roads that Y off to dead ends.To use up our fuel,and daylight.Thanks for any help David.We will head out OCT 30. Five bikes,big tanks,carry two spare gal gas.

See the maps (the 2009 with my pencilled-in additions) I posted on Baja Bucko's post today asking about Rancho el Rosarito up there... I drove the back way from El Socorro towards El Rosarito and then that drops down to Hwy. 1 via Rancho Martires to Sauzalito and near El Arenoso.

HERE: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=80583
More later...

[Edited on 10-18-2015 by David K]

DENNIS - 10-18-2015 at 04:26 PM

David...do you need help? :biggrin:

Bajahowodd - 10-18-2015 at 04:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS

David...do you need help? :biggrin:

David K - 10-18-2015 at 06:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS

David...do you need help? :biggrin:

Sure Dennis... what have you got? More than a bunch of laughing heads I hope?

My explorations into the San Pedro Martir are pretty limited. To the observatory, Mike's Sky Rancho north and south access roads, and that high road around El Rosario, that got near El Rosarito, I mentioned before...

Mile 32.6 is the closest I got to El Rosarito, maybe 8 miles away.

liknbaja127 - 10-18-2015 at 07:17 PM

How about the 1000 maps, or BFG, chase books for the 0-12 or 0-13
race? may be something on there that could help?

bajatrailrider - 10-18-2015 at 10:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by liknbaja127

How about the 1000 maps, or BFG, chase books for the 0-12 or 0-13
race? may be something on there that could help?

That route maybe from 07 Race.The above map hard to see,dont think it goes North enough.Will look at other post you mentioned David.We have explored over 7 routes (all East) from San Quintin to El Rosario.We have one more to go,also From Danielas Rancho.There is road that goes up to forest.We went up it last year,but turned tail because it was getting late.As last resort,We will truck bikes,to her rancho.Base camp there till we find it another time.

bajatrailrider - 10-18-2015 at 10:20 PM

Thank you guys,In other post buckos that looks like the road we are after last Map.Will check it out.

David K - 10-19-2015 at 09:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider

Thank you guys,In other post buckos that looks like the road we are after last Map.Will check it out.

Arrow points to El Rosarito

Then TW posted this, seems Score used that high road:

TMW - 10-19-2015 at 10:37 AM

The 07 B1K used the same roads in this area. Below is the 07 B1K in blue and the 13 B1K in green. Part of the bottom blue is covered up by the white line for a short east/west section.

GE1

GE2

GE3

GE4 Notice the bottom blue and green is using the same section as the 2015 B1K

motoged - 10-19-2015 at 10:40 AM

Here are some pics of that area.....for those who may never get out there....

Heading east from the bridge southeast of El Rosario....along farmfields for a bit:

And then southeast up into the hills.....

And starting northwards towards San Quintin....up and over a "pass":

Top of pass looking south:

Time for a break....and some nice vistas....

Cool rain-effects...

TMW - 10-19-2015 at 10:42 AM

GE4 at the bottom of the blue line where it turns to the right in an arroyo. The road comes to a locked gate at a farm. While I was driving around looking for a way past it, which I didn't find, someone unlocked the lock so we could get by. There were farm hands in the field working so one of them unlocked it.

By the way Google Earth does not show the correct path for the road at the farm gate.

bajatrailrider - 10-19-2015 at 03:12 PM

Ok boys here is what I dont see. GE2 When we leave San Quintine. Going South.Past bridge where Old paved road meets new paved road.Thats where we Go east,if we go another mile then east.Its old Baja course(We call it rock road) On GE2 map white color road,that crosses green marked road. (going West)Why you cant see it on map.Start of first road East where two paved roads meet? I know no way to understand me.

TMW - 10-19-2015 at 04:57 PM

Maybe this will help. Pin 1 is where the the new Hwy and old Hwy join after the tomato farm. Pin 2 is at KM16 and that is where several Baja 1000s turn toward the mountains.

They would go from 2 to 2A to 3 to 4 to 5 to 6. 5 is where the the white line is in the above GE images. 1 goes NE to a fenced off area we came back that way once and had to keep going around until we go to 2A. There is a huge hill with switch backs. Let me know if this is what you are looking for or do I need to go further north.

bajatrailrider - 10-19-2015 at 06:17 PM

TMW The pin one is the one we like.On the corner you turn Lt on (East) There are huge white tents for growing tomatoes. We are talking same place.We have not encountered any fences,locked gates.For last 5 years.If you Stray from start of pin 1 north then locked gates.When did you last do this route TMW. We went this route,Then south last week.

TMW - 10-20-2015 at 08:23 AM

I think the way you went in was OK. We didn't spent a lot of time looking foir another route out. Here is a GE image I did today showing the route we did about 2 years ago. We went in at KM16 to 2A then over to 5 then 6. The blue line is the 07 B1K, it went south, great ride if you haven't been on it but a locked gate at the end. However someone opened it for us.

From 6 we followed the 07 B1K to the yellow line going north. It crossed a wide arroyo. There are 2-3 ranchos along the way. We crossed another wide arroyo before climbing the mountain where there is a shrine at the top (S). From there we went west to LG&F where we met a fence and locked gate. We went left and south criss-crossing several roads before coming out at 2A.

The Google Earth images for the area are dated 12-22-2014 so they should be pretty accurate.

GE image showing route taken

GE image showing the various routes. The numbers relate to coordinates I marked. 19 is where the 07 B1K came down and the 13 B1K went north.

TMW - 10-20-2015 at 08:30 AM

This may show the route you took from 1.

bajatrailrider - 10-20-2015 at 10:12 AM

Tmw this is good view (last map) Do you have one like this from pin1 to Vicente Guerro.We would like to see how many roads,that T or Y in to route,when it turns North to Vicente.Also how many miles you think,When back all the way east,then starts turn to(north) Vicente.When you went on this route,From pin one.We get 50 miles east.At foot hills of forest.This is where Danila Ace rancho is located.Few houses,plenty of water,few trucks,tractor.When you leave her rancho,The side road to Vicente,Rt turn (North ) out there gate.Should be able to see this rancho on Google Earth.Its in box canyon,Then small road 20ft East of rancho.Its hard 4x4 road,up in forest.We need do 4X4 camp trip up there.She will give us Permiso.When have been half way up road on bikes. They have two more ranchos on this road up in forest.Thanks for help TMW. Anytime your ready to wheel up there Im ready.

bajatrailrider - 10-20-2015 at 10:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Here are some pics of that area.....for those who may never get out there....

Heading east from the bridge southeast of El Rosario....along farmfields for a bit:

And then southeast up into the hills.....

And starting northwards towards San Quintin....up and over a "pass":

Top of pass looking south:

Time for a break....and some nice vistas....

Cool rain-effects...

Motoged,we did this route few years ago,after rain.Nice and green.What year did you do this ride.Did you ever see anyone back there.Last 5 years,only few times people on Rancho.Other wise nobody ever.

motoged - 10-20-2015 at 10:59 AM

BTR,
We did that ride in January 2009....saw no one between EL Rosario and San Quintin....a few fresh bike tracks closer to SQ....the ride up onto the sand dunes south of SQ and beach ride to SQ was a nice finish to a great ride....

Best rides to you....

TMW - 10-20-2015 at 11:00 AM

On this GE image I show a couple of race miles from the 2013 B1K. Note on the right side is RM610 and at the upper left at the Vicente Guerrero bridge is RM660. I show two access roads from Hwy 1 to the race course. They were the only two I saw except when you get closer to the top. I also marked the ranches I could spot on GE. There are trails to the east of the race course but either circle back or deadend.

bajatrailrider - 10-20-2015 at 12:56 PM

When you went this route did you pass Nvevo York.We rode from SQ 12 years ago North looking for Nvevo York,We passed only one Rancho.Live stock,trucks,but no one home(Out on horse,we figure) No sign.So dont know if that rancho,it was a rocky road.That beat us all the way.

bajatrailrider - 10-20-2015 at 12:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

BTR,
We did that ride in January 2009....saw no one between EL Rosario and San Quintin....a few fresh bike tracks closer to SQ....the ride up onto the sand dunes south of SQ and beach ride to SQ was a nice finish to a great ride....

Best rides to you....

HA HA that was probably me and Mikes tracks. Are you still riding Motoged,happy trails

David K - 10-20-2015 at 01:44 PM

Has anyone been to San Isidoro, other than on foot or hoof?

TMW - 10-20-2015 at 04:59 PM

In the GE image above at the coordinates that read 355x115 just above the last 5 a road goes north for bout 2 miles to a Y. The left fork goes to a Ranchoin about 1/2 mile that by the coordinates in the almanac that is Nueva York.

TMW - 10-20-2015 at 05:01 PM

David where is San Isidoro in the almanac?

bajatrailrider - 10-20-2015 at 07:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

In the GE image above at the coordinates that read 355x115 just above the last 5 a road goes north for bout 2 miles to a Y. The left fork goes to a Ranchoin about 1/2 mile that by the coordinates in the almanac that is Nueva York.

Thank you TMW I will look.

David K - 10-20-2015 at 10:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by TMW

David where is San Isidoro in the almanac?

2009 Baja Ca Almanac

EL CAMINO REAL MAP

TMW - 10-21-2015 at 09:25 AM

Here is a GE image that shows what I think is Nueva York as per the coordinates from the almanac. The pin NY is just a building and further west at pin R-NY? there are several buildings so I think it is actually the ranch.

The pin SI? to the right is where San Isidoro should be from the almanac coordinates but GE does not show any building etc. The trail does come to an arroyo like it shows in the almanac. Maybe Bing will show something. Of course it may no longer exist.

TMW - 10-21-2015 at 10:01 AM

Bing show the SI pin to be at arroyo Campo del Oso which is what the almanac shows.

David K - 10-21-2015 at 11:43 AM

Graham writes about San Isidoro on his Journey With a Baja Burro from his 1997 walk to Loreto. It was a visita on the Vamino Real to Mission San Pedro Martir. Kevin photograped some artifacts there by the abandoned rancho.

bajatrailrider - 10-21-2015 at 07:10 PM

Wow did you guys see up rt hand corner San Antonio.Four of us went down there 12/14 years ago.On dirt bikes.Mellings do pack mule trip down there.There is a solar cabin down there,grave yard.A Family lived there many moons ago.Its very green lots of blue water.I dont recommend anybody try to ride a bike down.Like we did.Also I was told two years ago.By the Mellings,there is new road by San Isidoro.

Ken Cooke - 11-8-2015 at 01:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider

Also I was told two years ago.By the Mellings,there is new road by San Isidoro.

How close would this new road take a 4WD to Mision San Pedro Martir?

bajatrailrider - 11-8-2015 at 06:31 PM

I have not been on that road,but new road from Coyote.All the way up in forest(just below park gate. Is gated both ends,I have the keys for gates.

David K - 11-8-2015 at 06:49 PM

Hi guys... just back home...

Ken, there is still a hell of a climb from San Isidoro up to the mission. It is an El Camino Real trail up the side of a mountain... You can barely see it on Google Earth.

The new road is the one TW and Roy are going on (I think he said Roy?) which is a Baja 1000 route in the foothills of the sierra from Rancho Nueva York down to Rosarito and reaches Hwy. 1 at Los Martires turnoff/ cafe (also called El Arenoso airstrip).

I will make a map to point it all out... and give the distances fro the road to San Isidoro and up to the mission.

Speaking of Mission San Pedro Mártir...

David K - 11-8-2015 at 07:02 PM

Want a sneak peak at the chapter on that mission from my new book?

It is not formatted correctly here, but will give you an idea of the kind of data my next book will provide to help all interested in knowing more about the history of Old California...

#24 San Pedro Mártir de Verona (1794-1811)

By the end of 1791, the first five Dominican California missions were established along El Camino Real, securing the corridor between the peninsula and San Diego. The interior could now be brought under Dominican influence with “mountain missions.” The Indian attacks would be halted by “Christianizing the heathens,” or so the Spanish government believed.

The northern Baja California mountain valleys and meadows were first explored by José Velázquez in November 1775. Velázquez was ordered by Governor Neve to explore the northern gulf coast for a port closer than the Bay of San Luis Gonzaga to serve the new Dominican missions. Velázquez traveled north for two days from Mission San Fernando found many Indians and pine forests. He climbed a mountain and saw the Colorado River and the surrounding desert but never left the sierra for the uncertainty of finding drinking water. Velázquez feared the river would be still contaminated with sea water where they could reach it. Even though the goal of the expedition was not met, Velázquez did spark a desire of the Dominicans to establish a mission in the higher elevations of Baja California.

In May 1793, California’s Lieutenant-governor José Joaquín de Arrillaga, in Loreto, authorized an expedition to find potential mountain mission sites. Two sites were found to be the most suitable. One was northeast of San Vicente near a pass (El Portezuelo) leading to the Colorado River. The other mission site was east of Mission Santo Domingo in a high mountain meadow. In a letter dated January 15, 1794, Arrillaga stated that Mission San Pedro Mártir would be founded east of Santo Domingo that April.

Mission San Pedro Mártir de Verona was established on April 27, 1794, by Padre Caietano Pallás with Padre Juan Pablo Grijálva and Padre José Loriente. The first site for the mission was a place known to the native Kiliwa Indians as Casilepe and is a meadow, today called La Grulla. It was at an elevation of 6,785 feet. The exact location was unknown until an expedition in 1991 revealed cut stone foundation blocks in a pattern and scale that was of European origin. Some sixty Kilawa Indians joined the mission in its beginning.

Less than three months passed before a location change was requested. On July 18, 1794, Padre Pallás wrote the following to Governor Borica: “The new foundation has not continued with the happiness with which it began. The crops have frozen and I have determined to move it to work at another place, situated on the western slope of the Sierra about three leagues distant from the other.”

On July 19, 1794, Padre Pallás wrote: “The missionary at San Pedro Mártir says he will move the week that now ends, because of frosts and annoyances.” On July 29, Pallás requested permission to execute the transfer from Casilepe to the location known to the Kilawa natives as “Ajantequedo.” Governor Borica responded on August 10 to permit the transfer to a more fertile and sheltered site. The second mission site is seven miles south and over 1,700 feet lower in elevation than the first.

The mission was in a region where the Kiliwa Indians only visited seasonally. A large workforce was not easy to assemble without a permanent local population. The complex at Ajantequedo was large and mapped out by Peveril Meigs during his field work on the Dominican missions in 1926. It resembled a fort with defensive walls for protection. Water for mission crops came from springs on opposite sides of the valley and above the stream. Canals were built from the two springs and both ran for a half mile to the fields and to the mission. In 1926, Meigs found the mission floors were partly tiled with red nine inch square bricks, and pieces of red roof tiles were abundant. Meigs stated that San Pedro Mártir was a “highly developed, picturesque, and unique mission.” The elevation at the second site is 5,060 feet above sea level, making it the highest Spanish California mission.

In 1794 Sergeant José Manuel Ruiz wrote of the building of two bulwarks (fortifications) with cannon embrasures (openings). Ensign Alférez Bernal had been sent from San Vicente to San Pedro Mártir in May 1796 to investigate an incident. Bernal found that some soldiers were wounded and some Indians killed in a skirmish. Governor Arrillaga left Loreto by boat in June 1796 for Bahía San Luis Gonzaga then traveled by land to Mission San Vicente. Arrillaga wrote in August 1796 that there was additional trouble with Indians “escaping.” While at San Vicente, Arrillaga learned that the neophytes of San Pedro Mártir had deserted and demanded that a new padre be assigned to them.

By 1800, the population had grown to only ninety-two. The primary crop was corn, but raising cattle was the most productive endeavor for this mission thanks to the extensive pasturelands nearby. In 1801, a new church made of adobe 17 feet by 69 feet and a long reception room 39 feet by 19 feet were constructed. Also, two rooms each 19 feet by 22 feet and a storage room 19 feet by 33 feet were built. Sometime after 1801, the mission fell into decline. The lack of surviving records makes the cause for decline open to speculation.

In 1808, Padre Ramón López wrote a report on the status of all the peninsula missions. In it he states, “The two missions in the hills, Santa Catalina and San Pedro [Mártir], cannot give what they don’t have. The minister at Santa Catalina formerly was able to send something, but now he struggles just to make ends meet. San Pedro [Mártir] is good for little more and likely will always be that way.” From this report, we learn that the mission existed at least until 1808. The mountain mission, from which the entire range is named after, operated for probably less than twenty years. The remaining neophytes were transferred down to Mission Santo Domingo and nothing more is known of its end or the exact year it closed. One research paper states that an especially cold winter closed the mission in 1811. Padre Mansilla of Santo Tomás has an entry in the San Pedro Mártir mission book of records in 1846, which is most curious and has caused some rumors about “Dominican gold” since there are old mines and mill stones (arrastras) in the area.

San Pedro Mártir is one of only two California missions not accessible by automobile. A two or three-day backpack hike or mule ride is required to reach the site. The usual approach is east from Rancho Santa Cruz through San Isidoro or south from La Tasajera through La Grulla.

The following articles give additional details on this most remote of the California missions:

John Robertson, 1966 (page 39): http://dezertmagazine.com/mine/1966DM08/index.html
John Foster, 1991: http://www.pcas.org/Vol33n3/333fostr.pdf
Max Kurillo, 1996: http://www.pcas.org/Vol33N3/333Krilo.pdf

Dominican Missionaries recorded at San Pedro Mártir:

Caietano Pallás, Pablo Grijálva, and José Loriénte Apr. 27, 1794
Rafaél Caballero 1794-1797
Antonio Caballero 1794-1797
Juan Ríbas 1797
Mariano Apolinário 1797-1798
José Caulas 1798
Miguel López 1798
José Loriénte 1798
Eudaldo Surroca 1803
José Portela 1806
Juan Ríbas 1806
Ramón de Santos 1806

David K - 11-8-2015 at 07:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ken Cooke

Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider

Also I was told two years ago.By the Mellings,there is new road by San Isidoro.

How close would this new road take a 4WD to Mision San Pedro Martir?

In looking at the latest Google Earth images, it appears that a road now goes to San Isidoro from the new sierra foothills road. It actually seems to end on the south side of the creek, across from where the mission visita and old ranch was?

Here are six images showing the overall area, then zooms in. Most have N at top. I added a second ECR pin near the bottom of the cuesta.

Note the scale bar at the bottom for distance estimates.

bajatrailrider - 11-9-2015 at 09:03 AM

When we went on our Bike trip,two weeks ago.We did not get chance to Explore route.From Vicente to San Quintin.The first weekend of Dec,we attempt it again.This time park trucks,at friends home in Vicente.Unload dirt bikes.Anyone with 4x4/dirt bike welcome. As far as new road around San Isidoro.Alfredo Meling at Rancho Coyote has this info.

David K - 11-9-2015 at 10:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bajatrailrider

When we went on our Bike trip,two weeks ago.We did not get chance to Explore route.From Vicente to San Quintin.The first weekend of Dec,we attempt it again.This time park trucks,at friends home in Vicente.Unload dirt bikes.Anyone with 4x4/dirt bike welcome. As far as new road around San Isidoro.Alfredo Meling at Rancho Coyote has this info.

In the third sat image above (close up at San Isidoro) you can see the road coming in from the south to the creek. This is about 3 miles or less north from the new-ish Sierra road... where there is now quite a pull-off at a sharp curve, where the new San Isidoro road heads north. It would be great to confirm if this is a drivable road. It would knock a day's hike off the mission trip, perhaps? Previously, Rancho Santa Cruz, south from El Potrero, southeast of Meling Ranch was the closest vehicle approach... over 10 hiking miles away.

bajatrailrider - 11-9-2015 at 04:34 PM

You dont need hike up to San Isidoro.My freinds own Santa Cruz/El Potrero. If you can ride a horse David,consider

it done.

David K - 11-9-2015 at 04:56 PM

Thank you...

However, it was Jeep owner and Pole Line Road Trail Boss Ken Cooke who asked about getting a Jeep closer to the 5,000 ft. high mission.

It "looks" like the small trail I saw years ago on Google Earth is now an automobile size trail/ road going north to San Isidoro? We really need a recon of the road, and TW is heading that way, I hope!

TMW - 11-9-2015 at 06:28 PM

I hope to be going that way soon. I have a few problems to get solved first that have delayed my trip a little.

David K - 11-9-2015 at 06:32 PM

Tom, can you check out that trail/ road? It looks like 3 miles max to San Isidoro. It was a visita of Mission San Pedro Martir. There are artifacts laying around (or were) and some adobe ruins... perhaps from rancho days and not mission times?