Extranjeros in trouble with immigration in Todos santos

This particular issue has many sides to it and the only support or protest should be from the Mexican citizens and they seem rather divided over the situation.

There appeared to be a fair amount of "I have mine now, so don't mess it up" from the gringos involved. But as I said, it is multisided from an environmental standpoint.

The gringos were warned over and over that protesting could lead to problems. And they simply wanted to label the people who warned them as defenders of the development which was not the case. Mostly they were protesting the development, but didn't seem to want to understand that when it has to do with development, it has to do with politics. And referring to the government officials as corrupt does not sit well with those officials who have all the power.

As lencho said, right or wrong doesn't matter.

DK-- nice troll, but really not relevant.





[Edited on 1-31-2016 by DianaT]

Quote: Originally posted by Lee

You guys are as clueless as the opportunists scamming residents of Todos. Colorado money and greedy mexicans are selling a pipe dream to tourists. This area doesn't have the infrastructure to support anything close to what is being marketed. What hasn't made the news lately is the pangueros have closed things down. A road block to the site for months keeps builders out for the moment. Developers have ruined the south end of Punta Lobos for fishermen and tourists. Anyone else just drive down to the beach (non-workers allowed in) and see the blight. It really is a shame what money and corruption can do. If you don't live here and see what's happening, you don't know. Yeah, the government official is (always) right -- even when he's corrupt. Typical stuff: silence protest and objections to corruption. Just another day in paradise for the rest of you.

Spread the word

Quote: Originally posted by Lee

What hasn't made the news lately is the pangueros have closed things down. A road block to the site for months keeps builders out for the moment.

Good to hear! Support these guys somehow. Quietly.

[Edited on 1-31-2016 by SFandH]

Quote: Originally posted by Santiago

CAn someone post a link to something so we can get up to speed on what the issues are? I'm totally in the dark on what this development is and the pros/cons. What does Colorado have to do with this?

Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy

You may not like what is going on, however we are visitors in another country. If you are not a citizen, keep your mouth shut or suffer the consequences. Go back to the States or Canada and protest all you want

Flip Flop

Quote: Originally posted by 8knots

In an "historic turn of events," fishermen who before were opposed to the project near Todos Santos, now say that from the beginning their demands had been respected and complied with. La Paz, Baja California Sur - "We have never presented nor sought problems with Tres Santos, they have understood us, and I am certain they have tried to help us. They have put us in a new location, they are helping us, they want to help us, they have never opposed the points we have asked for. There is a lot of confusing, and many people who meddle our affairs who have not allowed us fix things," said Juan José Peralta Torres, the president of the Punta Lobos fishing cooperative yesterday on the conflict with the tourist real estate development. Accompanied by Jesús Salvatierra Cadena, president of the Vigilence Council, and Francisco Javier Orozco Domínguez, treasurer of the cooperative, in his interview, Peralta Torres gave a new spin to the presumed conflict between Punta Lobos fishermen - at playa Todos Santos, south of La Paz - the tourist development which, according to the first stories, affected fishing activities in the area. Now, the cooperative president said that Tres Santos has always supported and complied, and that "others" who have meddled have aggravated the conflict instead of resolving it. Peralta Torres gave out the names of Guilermoa Trasviña, Jesús Cota (alias El Diablo) and John Moreno, as those who had intervened without representing the fishing sector. They have "enmeshed themselves with our people, they have made enemies of our own people," and we do not know how John Moreno is a legal representative. John Moreno "I don't know why he says he is, he has never been our legal representative, never, on the contrary he wants to represent us, but does not, John has nothing to do with the cooperative," and he described him as "a two-sided coin," who "wants power." http://www.bcsnoticias.mx/pescadores-de-...=hootsuite

Brings to mind one of my favorite Bowie lyrics:

"This is not America, sha la la la la"

RIP David Bowie

How about Joni:

"They paved paradise and put up a parking lot"

Where will they get all the water for Tres Santos?

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT

But to openly join protests, and be very vocal is just asking for trouble.

Quote: Originally posted by Lee

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT   But to openly join protests, and be very vocal is just asking for trouble. Agreed. Unless you're a citizen/national, deportation is a reality. ''The Todos Santos community has insufficient water resources to provide uninterrupted service for the current population, which is growing rapidly. Our water supply is totally dependent on rainfall; prolonged drought, a common phenomenon in Baja Sur, leads to feast or famine, something we have no control over. The conclusion here is obvious,- there is no available water for large scale development. Given the above, Tres Santos will have to provide all the water for its projected development, in excess of 4,400 dwellings, not to mention an organic farm, and an estimated seven workers and support personnel per new dwelling. If this were to happen we would have over 30,000 new residents turning on the tap, seven times the current population. Tres Santos said they would not use town water and yet they now have concessions for the first 66 homes. How did that happen? Tres Santos has promised to provide all the water needed for their development by constructing a desalinazation plant, yet to be constructed or permitted, which would have to produce a minimum of 2,000,000 gallons per day. This is a major undertaking in an environmentally sensitive area, that is strongly opposed by the local fishermen and many others. We challenge Tres Santos Development to make all Permits public as full ‘Transparency’ is stated as Tres Santos public relation policy. – Water ‘applications/permits or concessions’ and all usage including SAPA, Ejido & CONAGUA and for Desal – Where is Tres Santos obtaining water at the construction site? – Where will they be obtaining water at the Beach and at CSU area? – What water will the CSU Research Farm utilize, how will it be supplied? – Waste water treatment, site, size, plan for treated water, costs to operate? DeSal Issues: DESAL PLANT DISASTER IN CABO. COULD IT HAPPEN IN TODOS SANTOS? One of Tres Santos’ proposed solutions to the water crisis in Todos Santos is to build a desal plant. In Cabo, more than 30 desal plants now operate. Almost all of them of them are privately run. Near the Diamante resort in Cabo (about 60KM south of Todos Santos), the water authority OOMSAPA runs a desal plant. At this plant, ocean waves completely severed the plant’s outflow pipes that once discharged brine 600 meters out to sea. For more than three years, millions of gallons of briny water laden with salt and chemical by-products from the desal process have flowed across the sand. Kids play in the brine discharge. When turtles lay their eggs, the nests are often washed away by the outflows. The pipe flows today, unprepared. Tres Santos has said that the design of it’s desal plant will be “different,” and avoid all these problems. Considering the spectacular engineering failure of the Tres Santos hotel seawall at Punta Lobos, Truth Santos challenges the developer. Make public the plans for your desal plant. Where will it be built? What kind of technology will it use? Who will the contractor be? Show the citizens of Todos Santos the Environmental impact Reports, in English AND Spanish. This link has factual information about when Cabo’s OOMSAPA desal plant was installed, chemicals used, quantity of population served, capacity, technology and other data. Tres Santos made public their desal plant in July, 2015 – https://tressantosbaja.com/tres-santos-desalination-plant/ We are asking for all applications/permits/concessions for a DeSal Plant be for public disclosure. – Is giving permission for a desal plant to Tres Santos ultimately depriving Todos Santos of having a desal plant because of the potential for restrictions to the number of desal plants in a given geographic area? – Has ‘Tres Santos’ destroyed beach habitat and protected red mangrove to put in sea walls and platforms to build on without having a firm permit to build a desal plant? – How much water will be provided for the 4,472 homes plus hotels and workers? How much is needed per day? – What will it cost to build a plant, how much to operate the plant? – What are the Environmental damage and loss of habitat issues? (Marine life, Endangered Turtles, Whales, Bait fish, Sardines and Traditional Fishermen’s livelihoods, etc…) With south facing discharge? – What size will they have to build to have a desal plant of sufficient capacity? – Where will the electric power come from, and what pollution will that add to the environment? – What is the financial resource to build and operate a desal plant for the thousands of people that would eventually live, work and visit at their development? http://truthsantos.org/wateraqua/

Quote: Originally posted by rts551

Quote: Originally posted by Lee   Quote: Originally posted by DianaT   But to openly join protests, and be very vocal is just asking for trouble. Agreed. Unless you're a citizen/national, deportation is a reality. ''The Todos Santos community has insufficient water resources to provide uninterrupted service for the current population, which is growing rapidly. Our water supply is totally dependent on rainfall; prolonged drought, a common phenomenon in Baja Sur, leads to feast or famine, something we have no control over. The conclusion here is obvious,- there is no available water for large scale development. Given the above, Tres Santos will have to provide all the water for its projected development, in excess of 4,400 dwellings, not to mention an organic farm, and an estimated seven workers and support personnel per new dwelling. If this were to happen we would have over 30,000 new residents turning on the tap, seven times the current population. Tres Santos said they would not use town water and yet they now have concessions for the first 66 homes. How did that happen? Tres Santos has promised to provide all the water needed for their development by constructing a desalinazation plant, yet to be constructed or permitted, which would have to produce a minimum of 2,000,000 gallons per day. This is a major undertaking in an environmentally sensitive area, that is strongly opposed by the local fishermen and many others. We challenge Tres Santos Development to make all Permits public as full ‘Transparency’ is stated as Tres Santos public relation policy. – Water ‘applications/permits or concessions’ and all usage including SAPA, Ejido & CONAGUA and for Desal – Where is Tres Santos obtaining water at the construction site? – Where will they be obtaining water at the Beach and at CSU area? – What water will the CSU Research Farm utilize, how will it be supplied? – Waste water treatment, site, size, plan for treated water, costs to operate? DeSal Issues: DESAL PLANT DISASTER IN CABO. COULD IT HAPPEN IN TODOS SANTOS? One of Tres Santos’ proposed solutions to the water crisis in Todos Santos is to build a desal plant. In Cabo, more than 30 desal plants now operate. Almost all of them of them are privately run. Near the Diamante resort in Cabo (about 60KM south of Todos Santos), the water authority OOMSAPA runs a desal plant. At this plant, ocean waves completely severed the plant’s outflow pipes that once discharged brine 600 meters out to sea. For more than three years, millions of gallons of briny water laden with salt and chemical by-products from the desal process have flowed across the sand. Kids play in the brine discharge. When turtles lay their eggs, the nests are often washed away by the outflows. The pipe flows today, unprepared. Tres Santos has said that the design of it’s desal plant will be “different,” and avoid all these problems. Considering the spectacular engineering failure of the Tres Santos hotel seawall at Punta Lobos, Truth Santos challenges the developer. Make public the plans for your desal plant. Where will it be built? What kind of technology will it use? Who will the contractor be? Show the citizens of Todos Santos the Environmental impact Reports, in English AND Spanish. This link has factual information about when Cabo’s OOMSAPA desal plant was installed, chemicals used, quantity of population served, capacity, technology and other data. Tres Santos made public their desal plant in July, 2015 – https://tressantosbaja.com/tres-santos-desalination-plant/ We are asking for all applications/permits/concessions for a DeSal Plant be for public disclosure. – Is giving permission for a desal plant to Tres Santos ultimately depriving Todos Santos of having a desal plant because of the potential for restrictions to the number of desal plants in a given geographic area? – Has ‘Tres Santos’ destroyed beach habitat and protected red mangrove to put in sea walls and platforms to build on without having a firm permit to build a desal plant? – How much water will be provided for the 4,472 homes plus hotels and workers? How much is needed per day? – What will it cost to build a plant, how much to operate the plant? – What are the Environmental damage and loss of habitat issues? (Marine life, Endangered Turtles, Whales, Bait fish, Sardines and Traditional Fishermen’s livelihoods, etc…) With south facing discharge? – What size will they have to build to have a desal plant of sufficient capacity? – Where will the electric power come from, and what pollution will that add to the environment? – What is the financial resource to build and operate a desal plant for the thousands of people that would eventually live, work and visit at their development? http://truthsantos.org/wateraqua/ All talking points from one side of the battle. and some good ones......to be fair there are responses....I won't bother to print them all out. And I am not a paid spy from MIRA. https://www.facebook.com/TruthSantosLies/?fref=ts

Quote: Originally posted by willardguy

I haven't been following too closely, did someone actually get booted?

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid

As far as has been reported in the news, no extranjeros have been asked to leave. Peter Buck left before questions about his status and then it was discovered he had a valid fmm as reported in the news, so INM dropped it and there is nothing to pursue. Denuncias may be filed by any legal resident accusing another person of a wrong, then the denuncia must be served to the individual (3 attempts) and the individual defendant may respond in a statement, then the process may proceed to be investigated--often with little outcome. As well government officials my investigate perceived wrongs on their own. Peter Buck was apparently informally accused in the news of saying something to the affect of let's end corruption and make things better during a music set without identifying or targeting anyone. Other extranjeros are apparently accused of blocking access to the rightful owners of the development but no evidence exists apparently of tourists blocking access to developers/owners while they were supporting the fishermen with gifts of food. INM has backed down that they would be investigating anyone now except as it is their normal role only to ensure that people who are more than 30 days overdue should resolve their status formally. And now the issue of all people's individual's rights that may not be restricted is a topic of news stories and the light is shining on the constitution with respect for all people's individual rights, for example, freedom from discrimination regardless of civil status, discussion of freedom of expression of culture, right to liberty, right to education and right to teach, right to survive, right to die etc... All in all the circumstances are calm, interesting, and it's a positive discussion. Much more calm the one sees NOB. And there are still whales jumping across sunsets... So at the moment everyone is free to come and go as they please and everyone is free to speak up as they please. Let us recall the grand history and tradition of Professor Agundez of Todos Santos who was a great educator and promotor of respect for culture. Here is an english translation of the mexican constitution, read the whole thing and article 33 in particular in light of article 1. http://www.juridicas.unam.mx/infjur/leg/constmex/pdf/constin...

Quote: Originally posted by CaboSur

Video of the lady from Colorado. Appears to me maybe she got caught up in emotions and politics involving the fishermen and developers .. .................... https://www.facebook.com/ezequiel.lizalde/videos/10154059669... Also, Seems no one was going to be deported. From colectivopericu.net The manager of Office of the National Institute of Migration (INM) in BCS, Édgar Fernando Castro Herrera, declared that he does not know what "authority" was the one that "intimidated" the resident foreigners in All Saints, since only it is up to them to do the cross-checks, and to invite the tourists to regularize its status in case they are in an illegal way in the country. <br> <br> “I do not know who were, yes I saw the video of the foreign woman, but we always walk with uniform and in official vehicles, and only we do the cross-check of which they have its current permission; if the person is not, we leave the notification to him […] When they come from tourists, they are 6 months old or 180 days of permission; once it is detected that the person has not left the country, he is visited and it is invited him to regularize, 30 days give it to themselves to do it, and they already decide to leave the country, or go out only to be regularized and to return with another 6 months like tourist”. <br> <br> On the case of the American guitarist, Peter Buck, the manager of Office of the organism of the Federal Government confirmed that they did the visit to its domicile, but he was already not in the country; on the other hand, he told that the INM does the cross-checks in the whole state, almost in a daily way or they come to do them because they received an anonymous denunciation of which there are foreigners working of illegal form.<br> <br> “Of the same way, in the topic of the guitarist, we went to verify its situation, but when we came, he either it was not, either it had gone away […] We do the cross-checks almost every day, very independently from what happened in All Saints; we come to the companies that have foreigners working or to the domiciles that they register; also, we do the cross-check when they do some anonymous denunciation of which some tourist is working in an illegal way, it is already done by Mexicans or for the same foreigners […] what more we find it are foreign that start teaching of surfeo or of diving”.<br> <br> Finally, Castro Herrera, mentioned that the foreigners who come from tourists to BCS, when its tourist's permission is conquered, yes are fulfilled to come to realize its regularization step.<br> <br> “When, to 30 days they are not regularized, he turns to visit them, and one gives them an office of exit, where it is indicated them that they have to go out of the country; in general, almost 100 % of the foreigners is fulfilled and yes they it do […] The Law of Migration he contemplates that they have the possibility of being regularized, it is more flexible; already, for a deportation, it is stronger and extreme, practically it would be applied when they were putting in danger the national security”.

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid

It is possible to be deported, I know of a few cases, one where a foreigner from Guatemala went to a rally for sub commandant Marcos in La Paz and was later discovered to not have a FMM and another case or two when people went to carnaval and got drunk and arrested and were discovered to not have an FMM. In each of these cases the people were welcomed back after leaving and returning. In general foreign visitors come and go annually with the seasons so leaving and returning often is not uncommon. Perhaps not unlike anywhere today, some people enjoy fanning the flames of racism and make broad statements with threats of deportation, however, that is not reality here. People have the right to pursue clean food and water to survive, for the right to express themselves in their culture whether that be as an artist, singer, fisherman, and people should not fear persecution for studying, educating and working together to improve their regional culture while respecting other's culture.

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid

People have the right to pursue clean food and water to survive, for the right to express themselves in their culture whether that be as an artist, singer, fisherman, and people should not fear persecution for studying, educating and working together to improve their regional culture while respecting other's culture.

Quote: Originally posted by chippy

Good riddance to that gal from colo. Mexico doesn`t need any more doped up misguided gringas. ps put out the ciggy you lameO

Quote: Originally posted by norte

Big words from a big mouth.

Quote: Originally posted by norte

Talk about fanning the flames. Tell all your BS to the poor girl above. Easy to be an armchair protester on a tourist forum. When was the last time you protested or marched....