BajaNomad

Dorado?

Raven - 8-2-2016 at 08:18 PM

A question for those who are far more experienced than I.

Where are the dorado?

This was my 16th season in Loreto. Worst yet for dorado. Nobody was catching. The few brought in were ninos. Have los comercios decimated the species? What happened to the migration? Are they on the east shore of the Sea of Cortez? Are they on the Pacific side of Baja? Is this just a natural cycle?

Thanks for your thoughts.

watizname - 8-2-2016 at 09:19 PM

When you see those little itty-bitty mahi mahi fillets in the seafood department of your local grocery, those are the babies that should have been the 40 lb scrappers that aren't there anymore. I don't know that for sure, and can't prove it scientifically, but it just kinda feels that way to me. :(

KaceyJ - 8-2-2016 at 09:21 PM

The Cortez and the Baja fishing dream there are literally dead

It is the newest dead sea on the planet

It has been dead for 15 years

Don't waste your time , effort or money except on preservative causes

55steve - 8-3-2016 at 12:02 AM

Dorado, mostly small but a few to 20 lbs are pretty much full speed around Bahia de Los Angeles right NOW...

Osprey - 8-3-2016 at 12:17 AM

Atlantic dolphin fish are mostly Pompano Dorado. They are smaller and thinner than common dolphin fish. They made their way over to the Pacific a long time ago and their numbers are obviously increasing. They could be replacing the larger specie. Here they call them Gulfito or Gulfino. The only obvious taxonomic feature one can use at sea is they have a different number of fin rays.

This is not to suggest common dolphin have not been overfished. When the sardine fishery goes down to 28% of normal levels everything else changes until and unless it revives. There are probably dozens of reasons common numbers are way down.

ncampion - 8-3-2016 at 08:20 AM

I think the main reason for no Dorado in the SOC this year is the very cold water temps. The Dorado follow the bait fish who follow the warm water. Water temp in front of my house in Loreto is usually upper 80's this time of year. Yesterday I read 80 F. Almost too cold for swimming!

David K - 8-3-2016 at 08:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ncampion  
I think the main reason for no Dorado in the SOC this year is the very cold water temps. The Dorado follow the bait fish who follow the warm water. Water temp in front of my house in Loreto is usually upper 80's this time of year. Yesterday I read 80 F. Almost too cold for swimming!


Even the water as far north as San Felipe is colder than on previous trips we take in July... we noticed that big time (we love warm water, like the dorado).

woody with a view - 8-3-2016 at 11:25 AM

Colder than average water...... Must be global warming!

Hook - 8-3-2016 at 12:28 PM

When I left San Carlos Sonora a week ago, we had water that was 88-90. It's been above 82 since early June. No cold water effect here.

Still no dorado to speak of............

When dorado is on all the menus in all the seafood restaurants and in all the seafood markets, it's apparent what's going on.

Yes, the El Nino effect may have contributed somewhat to an increased number of dorado going into the Pacific, instead of the SoC.

But overharvesting of sardines and commercial fishing for dorado are the causes, IMO.

In a country filled with incompetent government organizations, the Mexican fisheries departments are probably the "best" example of this.

Now watch, when it's finally dead and done (very close!), international conservation organizations will call for banning even sportfishing; though sportfishing couldn't make a significant dent in the population IF the population was at something near normal levels. Of course, they will also call for the banning of commercial fishing..............but the commercial fishing ban of dorado has been in place for years with no enforcement.

The exodus has started in San Carlos. I know people who are selling out because the pelagic fishing has been so bad (excluding decent billfishing) for several years running. They are headed to CR, Panama, etc. Decent summer fishing ameliorated dealing with the heat and humidity. Trolling in an 8.5 knot breeze was a great pastime when you were catching fish. Now, you just can't justify it.

grizzlyfsh95 - 8-3-2016 at 12:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Hook  
When I left San Carlos Sonora a week ago, we had water that was 88-90. It's been above 82 since early June. No cold water effect here.

Still no dorado to speak of............

When dorado is on all the menus in all the seafood restaurants and in all the seafood markets, it's apparent what's going on.

Yes, the El Nino effect may have contributed somewhat to an increased number of dorado going into the Pacific, instead of the SoC.

But overharvesting of sardines and commercial fishing for dorado are the causes, IMO.

In a country filled with incompetent government organizations, the Mexican fisheries departments are probably the "best" example of this.

Now watch, when it's finally dead and done (very close!), international conservation organizations will call for banning even sportfishing; though sportfishing couldn't make a significant dent in the population IF the population was at something near normal levels. Of course, they will also call for the banning of commercial fishing..............but the commercial fishing ban of dorado has been in place for years with no enforcement.

The exodus has started in San Carlos. I know people who are selling out because the pelagic fishing has been so bad (excluding decent billfishing) for several years running. They are headed to CR, Panama, etc. Decent summer fishing ameliorated dealing with the heat and humidity. Trolling in an 8.5 knot breeze was a great pastime when you were catching fish. Now, you just can't justify it.


Absolutely spot on.

chuckie - 8-3-2016 at 12:54 PM

Absolutley...The reason I moved to Mulege 35 years ago was the fishing one of the main reasons I left and wont return is the fishing....Louisiana has more and better....Boys and I are heading to New Zealand to see what that's about....

Raven - 8-3-2016 at 02:59 PM

Thanks to all for your comments.

Hook-- Special Thanks!

Looks like a problem all over SoC.

Guess I'll cherish the memories & move on.

Udo - 8-3-2016 at 03:58 PM

See Shari's recent post about do-dos in BA.

StuckSucks - 8-3-2016 at 05:07 PM

I've got your dorado right here (at Buenaventura)

David K - 8-3-2016 at 05:26 PM

YUM!!!

and when there's no dorado then you can always enjoy the cheeseburger in paradise, at Playa Buenaventura...



redhilltown - 8-3-2016 at 11:23 PM

Fisheries such as Canada, Louisiana, New Zealand have all been mentioned in this tread...and my guess is, ALL have tougher regulations and enforcement as to over fishing...but that is a bad word to so many...yet without it, the Cortez will die, if it has not already. But I honestly don't think it has...just needs a break. A long enforced break...very long.

chuckie - 8-4-2016 at 03:04 AM

rht....I agree with that...the need for a break..BUT BUT BUT unless that break is accompanied by some serious changes in policy and enforcement? 10-15 years ago we were pointing outt the overfishing of baitfish and commercial use....NADA...very sad....

chuckie - 8-4-2016 at 03:11 AM

UDO?
Re: Sharis Dorado post? ONE fish does not make a fishery....AND it was NOT caught in the SOC...

watizname - 8-4-2016 at 07:50 AM

Well said. :coolup:
Quote: Originally posted by Hook  
When I left San Carlos Sonora a week ago, we had water that was 88-90. It's been above 82 since early June. No cold water effect here.

Still no dorado to speak of............

When dorado is on all the menus in all the seafood restaurants and in all the seafood markets, it's apparent what's going on.

Yes, the El Nino effect may have contributed somewhat to an increased number of dorado going into the Pacific, instead of the SoC.

But overharvesting of sardines and commercial fishing for dorado are the causes, IMO.

In a country filled with incompetent government organizations, the Mexican fisheries departments are probably the "best" example of this.

Now watch, when it's finally dead and done (very close!), international conservation organizations will call for banning even sportfishing; though sportfishing couldn't make a significant dent in the population IF the population was at something near normal levels. Of course, they will also call for the banning of commercial fishing..............but the commercial fishing ban of dorado has been in place for years with no enforcement.

The exodus has started in San Carlos. I know people who are selling out because the pelagic fishing has been so bad (excluding decent billfishing) for several years running. They are headed to CR, Panama, etc. Decent summer fishing ameliorated dealing with the heat and humidity. Trolling in an 8.5 knot breeze was a great pastime when you were catching fish. Now, you just can't justify it.

David K - 8-4-2016 at 08:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by seasider  
I,ve thought about this for awhile, so will ask the question why the billfishing seems to be better than other years yet the dorado fishing is very poor?


Very good point.

What some folks don't want to consider that it is very NORMAL for things to be DIFFERENT from year to year.

The ocean (and the land) of this planet is dynamic, not static. Climates change, temperatures fluctuate, the sea moves and all the animals do too.

The changes have happened and will continue to happen rather man's activities are in the mix or not. Being conservative and only taking what we need to survive without waste or destroying other things is wise behavior. But, to blame everything that is different on man has no benefit to improving anything. Learn to be flexible and to adjust to the changes. Animals have since the beginning. If the food runs out in one place, they go to another if they want to eat. They don't blame each other, raise taxes, and wait for the food to come to them, do they? (That's supposed to be a funny)

AKgringo - 8-4-2016 at 09:13 AM

Changes in the environment may favor one species, while harming another. For an example, there have been several years since I have been fishing Alaskan waters, that have had a bust in the Chinook and Coho salmon runs while the Sockeye runs exploded! That was for fish returning to the same spawning grounds.

From what I see reported on this forum, it seems that colder water temps do not favor fishing in the Sea of Cortez, but it may be good for other species. If the cold water is an up welling bringing nutrient rich water into the sunlight, it might be a boost to the bottom of the food chain.

Just a small ray of hope for a dismal situation. Yes, I know...hope in one hand and shift in the other, and see which one fills up faster!

ncampion - 8-4-2016 at 09:32 AM

Here is the SST temp map from NOAA. See all the yellow on the Baja side of the SOC even some green. Very unusual for this time of year.


Sea Temps SOC



David K - 8-4-2016 at 09:54 AM

Bigger map please... I am old now. ;)

del mar - 8-4-2016 at 10:22 AM

Quote: Originally posted by seasider  
If we are going to solve the problem and submit our report to fisheries :lol:we need to address a few issues:
The billfish prefer warmer water than even dorado so why are they more numerous this year?
I,m guessing it has a lot to do with where the fish go when they aren't in Baja and what happens to them when they are there.
That's just one of my issues with the feds in US and Canada. With all the technological advances and resources available they should have a better understanding of where the fish are at all times.


I think it all has to do with which species is tastier!

ncampion - 8-4-2016 at 05:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Bigger map please... I am old now. ;)


I included the link just for you. I am still a little "picture challenged" on Nomad.

David K - 8-4-2016 at 09:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ncampion  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Bigger map please... I am old now. ;)


I included the link just for you. I am still a little "picture challenged" on Nomad.


The link is to the same small image on Photobucket. Can you give the link you got it from?

redhilltown - 8-4-2016 at 11:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by seasider  
I,ve thought about this for awhile, so will ask the question why the billfishing seems to be better than other years yet the dorado fishing is very poor?


Very good point.

What some folks don't want to consider that it is very NORMAL for things to be DIFFERENT from year to year.

The ocean (and the land) of this planet is dynamic, not static. Climates change, temperatures fluctuate, the sea moves and all the animals do too.

The changes have happened and will continue to happen rather man's activities are in the mix or not. Being conservative and only taking what we need to survive without waste or destroying other things is wise behavior. But, to blame everything that is different on man has no benefit to improving anything. Learn to be flexible and to adjust to the changes. Animals have since the beginning. If the food runs out in one place, they go to another if they want to eat. They don't blame each other, raise taxes, and wait for the food to come to them, do they? (That's supposed to be a funny)



I don't even know where to start with this gibberish (that's supposed to be funny).

That argument is canned. It is an across the board cop out for doing anything. Is shrimping "conservative"? Where they only take what they need to survive? Do you think the commercial fleets raking in the dorado are only doing it to "survive"? Blaming man for the destruction of the fisheries in the Cortez is well...gosh, maybe because of man? Yes fish come and go...yes the weather and tides change...but you are dreaming about an ocean and world 100-150 years ago that had no substantial impact from humans. You constantly do this DK: you equate everything over the last 10,000 years to a simple "scientific" solution that "things change and they always will". Take that equation and add six billion humans.

Animals raising taxes...seriously, have you lost your mind?

woody with a view - 8-5-2016 at 08:01 AM

I think we're up to 7 billion now, in case that fact has any bearing on the discussion.

David K - 8-5-2016 at 08:07 AM

Come on, relax... are you going to live all stressed out because of some small temperature changes or will you adapt? Which one works the best?

Here's that temp map, bigger:




mtnpop - 8-5-2016 at 09:48 AM

And then there are my two Calif. buddies that go down late June early July and come back bragging about hauling in 30 or more Dorado a day in the past.. Probably there are several hundred doing the same thing... Can't imagine that this would affect anything in our fishing world...
Here in Colorado we do work on catch and release so there is another day of good fishing... Then again there are folks doing the same as the Calif. buddies in these parts I am sure...

BigBearRider - 8-5-2016 at 10:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by seasider  
I,ve thought about this for awhile, so will ask the question why the billfishing seems to be better than other years yet the dorado fishing is very poor?


Very good point.

What some folks don't want to consider that it is very NORMAL for things to be DIFFERENT from year to year.

The ocean (and the land) of this planet is dynamic, not static. Climates change, temperatures fluctuate, the sea moves and all the animals do too.

Being conservative and only taking what we need to survive without waste or destroying other things is wise behavior. But, to blame everything that is different on man has no benefit to improving anything. Learn to be flexible and to adjust to the changes. Animals have since the The changes have happened and will continue to happen rather man's activities are in the mix or not. beginning. If the food runs out in one place, they go to another if they want to eat. They don't blame each other, raise taxes, and wait for the food to come to them, do they? (That's supposed to be a funny)


Please.

1. Even the unassailable Fox News reports that the planet has lost 50% of its marine life since 1970 (and "Wildlife on land isn't faring any better") and "[d]riving all these trends are human actions: from overfishing and resource depletion, to coastal development and pollution, to the greenhouse gas emissions causing ocean acidification and warming":

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=83665

2. I'm curious about your use of "rather" instead of "whether" in this claim: "The changes have happened and will continue to happen rather man's activities are in the mix or not." Many years ago, I once encountered a person who used the word "rather" in lieu of "whether" the same way you do here. It was memorable enough that I, and a friend, still remember it vividly.

bajabuddha - 8-5-2016 at 12:35 PM

I note that sea temps are shown (with the ubiquitous map) but no one has mentioned the fact this is now a La Niņa year; the equatorial global sea temp loop is COOLER than normal, hence several eastern Pacific storms headed mostly WNW and not gaining a lot of strength, which by the way is a blessing for Baja this year, it may get a total break from past whumpers.

This would also have everything to do with migratory fish patterns and feeding habits, would it not? And please, I'm not taking a stand that mankind is not culpable; we also have EVERYTHING to do with the destruction of the Sea of Cortez, both from overharvesting, starting with shrimping to damming (and damning) the Colorado Delta and the northern 1/3rd reach of the SOC. In less than 100 years (the majority in the last 30) we've turned a sub-tropical paradise into an aquatic desert, and it is 100% human-caused.

freediverbrian - 8-5-2016 at 05:45 PM

I think the poor year of dorado must be water temperature and food source , and not over fishing of dorado ,they are the rabbits of the sea . Sexually mature at six months in the 5-6 lb range ,20 lb in a year , 40 in three ,and most not living beyond four years .climate change yes !! Long term no one knows!

freediverbrian - 8-5-2016 at 06:17 PM

Climate change effects plankton ,bait fish ,etc billfish and dorado do not eat the same thing.

bajabuddha - 8-5-2016 at 08:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by seasider  
Quote: Originally posted by bajabuddha  

This would also have everything to do with migratory fish patterns and feeding habits, would it not?

Care to take a run at the reason why there are so many warm water loving billfish in the same area that there are so few warm water loving dorado?
I think some of the other posters have described the reason amply with my favourite being del mars' reply "I think it is all to do with which species is tastier"


Wouldn't they all be caught pretty much the same way? If they all travelled in the same thermocline they'd all end up on the same hook/net. A degree here and there might make a difference. If the catchermen weren't interested in the other billfish they'd still be scuttled to jetsam and killed, hence all fish would decline. More of one and less than the other? Good question. I don't have the answer, i'm not a specialist. What I do know is the La Niņa has effects also; however I totally agree humankind has the upper(?) hand in the destruction of the SOC, so essentially we are in agreement. I simply put in an extra equation.

redhilltown - 8-5-2016 at 11:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by freediverbrian  
Climate change effects plankton ,bait fish ,etc billfish and dorado do not eat the same thing.


So called "climate change" would affect everything and it is all connected at some point. If they do not eat the same thing, they eat something else that is connected to something else that eats the same thing.

Hmmmm...who's on first?

mtgoat666 - 8-6-2016 at 08:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by seasider  
Quote: Originally posted by freediverbrian  
Climate change effects plankton ,bait fish ,etc billfish and dorado do not eat the same thing.

Looks like we will need to wait for some gov. to commision a huge study before we will know for sure:lol:


Or you could just make up a theory that feels good, and call it fact.

I am always amused (and bemused) by people that reject science because they just don't like the facts and conclusions (or just think that their folk wisdom is good enough)

Terry28 - 8-6-2016 at 09:44 AM

Once again folks..." The cool thing about science is that it's true even if you don't believe it"

Ateo - 8-6-2016 at 10:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Terry28  
Once again folks..." The cool thing about science is that it's true even if you don't believe it"



Ding ding ding ding...........WINNER!

grizzlyfsh95 - 8-6-2016 at 10:43 AM

Science is study. It is proposing a theory, and then attempting to prove or disprove the theory. Many times over the years, theories have been proven, only to be disproved at a later date. Science is not fact. It represents currently accepted theory for what it is. Accepted theory. Some use this theory as a cudgel to further their political or social beliefs. Those who want to end discussion by saying that the majority of scientists agree on a theory, so there fore it is fact, have little or no training in science.

David K - 8-6-2016 at 11:26 AM

Bravo you two!

freediverbrian - 8-6-2016 at 12:38 PM

Agreeing to disagree how un nomad of us :)

Terry28 - 8-7-2016 at 08:21 AM

So the earth is flat....the moon landing was faked and pro wrestling is real..and immunizations cause autism......seems a lot of folks suffer from"cranianus anus"....meaning your head is in your.......
also known as a cranial inversion..........

Barry A. - 8-7-2016 at 08:41 AM

Quote: Originally posted by seasider  
Quote: Originally posted by grizzlyfsh95  
Science is study. It is proposing a theory, and then attempting to prove or disprove the theory. Many times over the years, theories have been proven, only to be disproved at a later date. Science is not fact. It represents currently accepted theory for what it is. Accepted theory. Some use this theory as a cudgel to further their political or social beliefs. Those who want to end discussion by saying that the majority of scientists agree on a theory, so there fore it is fact, have little or no training in science.

Good explanation. To me, it's just an interesting topic and I agree with you, there are many theories but no concrete proof.
I also think that a group of people can have a discussion on a board like this and often come to the same conclusion as several mighty nations that just spent hundreds of millions of our dollars. There is nothing wrong with, and in fact necessary I believe, for everyone to hold the government more accountable for how they spend our money and the results that can be expected.
And since I think you might have the answer I'll ask you if the commercial boys in your neighbourhood are catching the same number of both dorado and billfish?



[Edited on 8-6-2016 by seasider]


You nailed it, SeaSicer!! Thank you for that post. In my career for 30 years in managing Natural Resources and working with professionals your description of Specialists and Scientists has been borne out time after time. Thank God for Scientists and Specialists and their research and opinions, but they only contribute to the body-of-knowledge and are not the end-all when it comes to "fact".