BajaNomad

Resident Permanente Format Change

capitolkat - 11-2-2016 at 07:04 AM

heading back to La Paz and I flew through Guadalajara. When I was processing through Mexican Immigration at the GDL airport, the Immigration officer looked at my resident permanente card and said I needed a new one. I asked why and he said there was a new format for the cards. Mine is about 3 years old. It's the first I've heard and am looking for information on any format change to the RP card.

Udo - 11-2-2016 at 07:40 AM

To my knowledge, RP cards do not expire. I just looked at mine.

DENNIS - 11-2-2016 at 07:45 AM



Redefining the word "forever" on Day of The Dead. Who could be surprised? :lol:

capitolkat - 11-2-2016 at 07:49 AM

The Immigration agent did not say my card was expired, as like UDO I did not think it expires. He said there was a format change - which could be change of colors, location of the photo, etc.--

Udo - 11-2-2016 at 08:15 AM

:light:

Russ - 11-2-2016 at 10:24 AM

A few years ago Imagration came around (at Christmas time) and told me I had to up grade from imigrado to the new perminate card at $4000 pesos for the change. A friends son works in La Paz and she checked with him. $1400 there. Santa Rosalia immigration needs to realize their job is suppose to be to help us and not rip us off at every opportunity.

Alm - 11-2-2016 at 10:36 AM

In Sta Rosalia I saw cops around Christmas going door to door, trailer to trailer, asking for donations. They at least were honest as to their purpose. Immigration doing the same - this is a new. Federales are supposed to get paid a little better, no? :)

rts551 - 11-2-2016 at 11:59 AM

Santa ROsalia told me I had to change my Immigrado card to RP and it would be 4000 pesos. I checked with Mexico City INM (You can ask a question on-line). They said no, but if I wanted to it would be just a card replacement, 1000 pesos. I did not change.

DENNIS - 11-2-2016 at 12:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alm  
In Sta Rosalia I saw cops around Christmas going door to door, trailer to trailer, asking for donations. They at least were honest as to their purpose. Immigration doing the same - this is a new. Federales are supposed to get paid a little better, no? :)


It's a cultural thing. Part of the system. You can't take Mexico out of the Mexican no matter how hard you try.

DENNIS - 11-2-2016 at 12:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  


Yes, the format change is just considered a replacement, at the cost you quote. So why do you think they're charging $4000? It's to be paid at the bank, which I assume means the funds are not available to the local INM guys as some sort of graft... :?:



I always figured Mexico would regret the forever aspect of their Perm Res status....like killing a cash-cow....and it seems they are finding a a method to resurrect the cow.

capitolkat - 11-2-2016 at 02:40 PM

While I appreciate the comments- I have a RP card that is about 3 years old and was told it did not expire. The question I raise is there a new format that requires me to get a replacement. I'll check when I get to La Paz in a few days but I was hoping someone might have gone through the new format question and could clarify. thanks- Norm

DENNIS - 11-2-2016 at 04:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by capitolkat  
While I appreciate the comments- I have a RP card that is about 3 years old and was told it did not expire. The question I raise is there a new format that requires me to get a replacement. I'll check when I get to La Paz in a few days but I was hoping someone might have gone through the new format question and could clarify. thanks- Norm


Given the regional...local...personal... interpretations of regs and laws in Mexico, I anticipate your reply from whichever source you choose to ask to be a big, "Yes. Of Course you must."
I mean, even in Mexico, how could they impose change on a demographic with which they have no conduit of communication?
Keep us posted....and thanks.

capitolkat - 11-3-2016 at 07:19 AM

Because my wife had business in the states she stayed an extra two days and flew to Guadalajara yesterday, and also went through Mexican immigration at the airport. She has the RP issued at the same time as mine, and in the same format.

Nothing from the immigration officer about her needing a new card. of course she is prettier and nicer than me, but come on.

I'll check in La Paz with immigration there.

pacificobob - 11-3-2016 at 08:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  


Redefining the word "forever" on Day of The Dead. Who could be surprised? :lol:


that is quite funny!

fish101 - 11-3-2016 at 09:08 AM

Your R.P. card must have a CURP number and if it doesn't you must go into INM and get it added, so probably another cost to have this done!!!

karenintx - 11-3-2016 at 09:27 AM

We both have R/P cards issued in June 2013. Last week we flew into SJD and proceeded through IMN. Only thing the INM agent said to us was "welcome home."

Our curp # is on the front of our cards. I am not an expert but was under the impression the R/P card could not and would not be issued until you were issued a curp #. Since we had our curp # a couple of year before getting our R/P this was not a problem for us.

Still an interesting remark made by the GDL INM agent. Please post any updates.

Udo - 11-3-2016 at 10:36 AM

This happened to us on two occasions when flying into SJD airport.
Quote: Originally posted by karenintx  
Only thing the INM agent said to us was "welcome home."

Still an interesting remark made by the GDL INM agent. Please post any updates.

Alm - 11-3-2016 at 12:57 PM

I'm not sure that RP is killing a cash cow.

Total cost of RP - albeit non-recurrent - is around $US 300. Not to mention those getting RP through RT.

People with tourist visas would generate max $50 a year, and many will only bring $25 because they don't come there in summer. It wold take 12 years to generate $300 then.

karenintx - 11-3-2016 at 05:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alm  


People with tourist visas would generate max $50 a year, and many will only bring $25 because they don't come there in summer. It wold take 12 years to generate $300 then.


This is a very good point for those who drive but maybe not for those that fly. If you want to board a departing airplane from Mexico (of any foreign country you are visiting) you are required by the law of that country to give up/surrender your tourist form that you filled out on the in-bound flight. When driving you can keep your FMM for up to 180 days.

R/P or R/T are not required to pay the FMM tax that is included in the airline ticket. If they have been charged they need to notify their airline the next time they purchase a fare.

As for me, I do fly out of SJD about five or six times a year so doing the math at $25...it took about two years for my R/P to pay for itself. Plus at SJD, the INM allows us to go through the same line as Mexican citizens. Some Mexican airports I have flown into require R/P to go through the line with tourist.

gsbotanico - 11-5-2016 at 07:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  
Quote: Originally posted by lencho  


Yes, the format change is just considered a replacement, at the cost you quote. So why do you think they're charging $4000? It's to be paid at the bank, which I assume means the funds are not available to the local INM guys as some sort of graft... :?:



I always figured Mexico would regret the forever aspect of their Perm Res status....like killing a cash-cow....and it seems they are finding a a method to resurrect the cow.

I'm not sure about the cash-cow theory. I spent a lot of money through the years with the annual FM-3 and then five years with the FM-2. I have to add in the cost of using a public notary when doing it by myself got too complicated and time consuming. And there were multiple trips to the government offices.

At least in my case I must have spent $5000 or more over many years. I needed to do this because I was working in Mexico and not living there full time. I was able to deduct the cost as work expenses on my income tax returns. A six-month visa would have been cheaper, but I'm happy that I have my Residencia Permanente now.

DENNIS - 11-5-2016 at 07:38 AM


Correct me if I'm wrong or outdated, but aren't working papers still in a category of their own, and a visa a prerequisite to obtaining those working papers?

Alm - 11-5-2016 at 12:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gsbotanico  

I'm not sure about the cash-cow theory. I spent a lot of money through the years with the annual FM-3 and then five years with the FM-2. I have to add in the cost of using a public notary when doing it by myself got too complicated and time consuming. And there were multiple trips to the government offices.

Money paid to notaries, facilitators and bus companies are your problem, unfortunately. It's not going to the govt - except for whatever taxes they pay. Govt is only getting visa fees and application fees.

For ground-crossing, spending ~6 months a year and in winter only, there isn't much difference in revenue whether you remain a tourist or get RP. Could be that RP is slightly more beneficial, since the govt is getting +5,000 MXN at once, not in $25 increments spread over many years, and some tourists coming without pay.

For frequent visits all year round and/or if you're flying, visitors visas bring more money.

Alm - 11-5-2016 at 12:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  

Correct me if I'm wrong or outdated, but aren't working papers still in a category of their own, and a visa a prerequisite to obtaining those working papers?

Articulo 60 simply states that RP can work. Working papers are in category of their own, yes, - for those without RP.

DENNIS - 11-5-2016 at 12:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alm  

Articulo 60 simply states that RP can work. Working papers are in category of their own, yes, - for those without RP.


I strongly believe that is an incomplete interpretation. There are many foreigners who cross the line daily from the US to work in Tijuana who have no residency in Mexico.
Any foreigner planning to work in Mexico with only residency permission should seek legal advice.

Alm - 11-5-2016 at 01:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  

Any foreigner planning to work in Mexico with only residency permission should seek legal advice.


I am not a lawyer, and my Spanish is still "muy poco". It is possible there exist a different interpretation, but here is what I see:

RP are listed in Art 60 of INM in the paragraph "Las condiciones de estancia que cuentan con permiso de trabajo". This means "Status that includes/has work permit". I don't see any other conditions mentioned for RP in order to be able to work. Work permit comes with the status. Hypothetically, there "could be" an additional work paper that is yours for asking, mere formality. Not much interested, don't plan to work :)

[Edited on 11-5-2016 by Alm]

DENNIS - 11-5-2016 at 02:02 PM



The mention of a "work permit" indicates the existence of such. Translations are less than conclusive and readers do have a tendency to interpret and believe what they choose as desirable at the moment. That "fact" has been the basis of real estate nightmares, such as Punta Banda, forever.

Ok...I'm done with it all.

Alm - 11-5-2016 at 02:49 PM

Let's not forget that "permiso" also means "permission". When a status includes such a permission, it doesn't necessarily have to be finalized in the form of a separate paper "permit".

The document - Lineamientos - is rather lengthy. On a (very) brief glance I didn't notice any mention of the process of applying and processing work permits for PR, or expediting such a permit like for some other categories.

Doesn't "look" that PR holders are in any danger when working without official paper permit - since a "permission" to work is a feature that comes with the status. I would inquire if this was important to me. Though... it's not uncommon for 2 different lawyers to have 2 different opinions on certain paragraphs of INM law :)

DENNIS - 11-5-2016 at 03:12 PM


I have seen, and personally found that laws and regulations interpreted with a US mindset, can and probably will end up as a disaster for the interpreter. Mexico law is, by tradition, written for the benefit of those able to buy or coerce decisions at the moment.
Don't ever rely on that swinging in your favor.
Get a lawyer.

gsbotanico - 11-5-2016 at 05:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Alm  
Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  

Correct me if I'm wrong or outdated, but aren't working papers still in a category of their own, and a visa a prerequisite to obtaining those working papers?

Articulo 60 simply states that RP can work. Working papers are in category of their own, yes, - for those without RP.

I can only speak from my 25+ years of working in Mexico. I always kept my residency in the US. The work papers (FM-3) are in place of a visa. The FM-3 used to be like a Mexican passport. I could fly and travel all over Mexico using only the FM-3. I never had to buy a visa. When the Mexican government offered a path to Permanent Residency I converted to a FM-2. This converted to PR after 5 years. In my second or third year with a FM-2 the Mexican government switched to a credit card type of document.

I paid a lot of money to the Mexican government with absolutely no regrets. Of course, I understand that money paid to the public notary didn't go to the government, although it did go into the local economy. The point I was trying to make, which perhaps I didn't make clearly, is that the Mexican government didn't need to make me a cash cow, as I had already been one for a lot of years.

Interestingly I have never been asked to prove my legality to work in Mexico. I show the PR card at the airport. Crossing south at the border the card is useful to speed the process if I'm sent into secondary inspection. If I'm walking, I get in the line with the Mexicans. It's also useful if I'm stopped by a cop. It shows I'm not an easy mark without saying a word. And who knows? I may want to live in Mexico some day. I call this my Plan B.

DENNIS - 11-5-2016 at 06:34 PM



The day may be just around the corner [Nov 8] when it will be inadvisable to be caught working in Mexico without proper authority, and I still contend RP status alone doesn't cover that.
INM may be inactive regularly, but when complaints come from Nationals, INM does respond.

surabi - 11-5-2016 at 07:37 PM

Dennis, what is the point of sitting at your computer "contend"ing things of which you obviously have no knowledge?

RPs may work in Mexico. That is immigration LAW. No special permission necessary, no lawyers necessary, no interpretations, no grey areas.

I have had a business in Mexico for 15 years, first under an FM3 Lucrativa, then TR Lucrativa, now RP. INM only requires that you notify them of a change in work status, or work address.

surabi - 11-5-2016 at 08:43 PM

Soulpatch,

I live on the mainland. No, things are not different here regarding INM, which is Federal Law.

DENNIS - 11-6-2016 at 07:51 AM

https://www.justlanded.com/english/Mexico/Mexico-Guide/Visas...

surabi - 11-6-2016 at 07:33 PM

Soulpatch, Sorry, I didn�t realize you were being facetious- funny, cause I often am as well. Don�t know if it�s a character flaw- people like Bill Maher make lots of $ being like that.

I live in Sayulita, and the INM I have had to deal with here (tho hopefully never again, since I am RP now) is in Nuevo Vallarta. I have always found them quite nice and helpful.

And aside from having to give up my Canadian plated Japanese made car, I feel lucky in that I never had to show any financials, never had to go to any consulates, since I have had a business here since the get-go, never let my FM3s or TRs lapse, so just segued right into RP.

gsbotanico - 11-8-2016 at 02:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  


The day may be just around the corner [Nov 8] when it will be inadvisable to be caught working in Mexico without proper authority, and I still contend RP status alone doesn't cover that.
INM may be inactive regularly, but when complaints come from Nationals, INM does respond.

I can vouch in my case that RP does allow me to work legally in Mexico. There are reporting requirements placed on the employer. These include proof of payment of taxes, of any required benefits, and that a certain ratio of Mexican to non-Mexican workers is maintained. I supplied all this information to the immigration office yearly until I received my RP.

Over the years there has been a shifting interpretation of the Mexican law, depending on the administration in Mexico City and locally. I did all my government interaction in Playas de Rosarito. Every time there was an administrative change in the local office, there was new interpretation of the rules. It's the main reason I finally hired a public notary to help me.

If I choose to live in Mexico, I can become a Mexican citizen in about a year. It involves more paperwork, more money, and a Spanish language competency test. I don't doubt I would be able to pass the test. I would then have dual citizenship.

I don't expect any change after November 8 that causes me any worry.

DENNIS - 11-8-2016 at 04:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gsbotanico  

I can vouch in my case that RP does allow me to work legally in Mexico. Over the years there has been a shifting interpretation of the Mexican law,


Interpretation changes with the wind. Without getting into that, I've been searching for something...anything...that supports your assertion, and can find nothing.
I realize most everybody can work legally in Mexico, but my question is, does RP status supersede all INM permits to do as such? I believe not. [Hacienda requirements, a separate issue, are not being considered by me in this discussion]




.

[Edited on 11-9-2016 by DENNIS]

DENNIS - 11-8-2016 at 08:30 PM


http://www.mexperience.com/lifestyle/living-in-mexico/visas-...

gsbotanico - 11-9-2016 at 02:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by DENNIS  

http://www.mexperience.com/lifestyle/living-in-mexico/visas-...

From the link:
"You should apply for a Permanent Resident Visa commensurate with the economic activity you want to undertake. Some common examples of economic activities which qualify for this visa are: a company-sponsored job, or an invitation to carry out academic or scientific research. If you have ~100,000 US dollars to invest in a Mexican company you can apply for an investor�s visa under this category."

I received my RP by a company-sponsored job. I didn't have 100,000 USD!

Some history. I had been working legally under a yearly FM-3 work permit. The permit said, "Con fines de lucro." In other words, "for profit," or to earn money. Because of the large number of American living in the northern Baja coastal area, the Mexican government started a new program to get an estimated 20,000 foreigners legalized. Call it amnesty, if you will. I always thought it was a quid pro quo for the cries for amnesty for all the illegal Mexican working the the US.

The program of "legalization" included people like myself who were working, but not living full-time in Mexico. I enrolled in the five-year program leading to the RP. The Mexican government was completely aware of my status as a worker, not a resident. This included an interview the fifth year. I always used my US address.

There's a remote possibility that the RP could be taken away from me. Very unlikely because of the extensive cross border commercial interests between California and Baja. If I were to lose mine, so would a lot of other people.

After all, it does say "permanente" on my card.

Alm - 11-10-2016 at 09:24 PM

So far I don't see anything rebutting what Dennis said, i.e. that RP status in itself gives the right to work, automatically and unconditionally (licensing requirements are not being discussed here).
Statements like "I know that this is so", are - well, I won't comment on those.
RP gringos "work", yes.

capitolkat - 11-11-2016 at 03:49 PM

Well this topic has gone everywhere, but back to the subject at hand- do I need a new RP card because of a format change?

Looks like the answer is no. I checked with the local Immigration expert, in La Paz, who helped me get my RP card and he said no. He doesn't have a clue why some random immigration clerk in the Guadalajara airport told me that I need a new card and not my wife - who also holds an RP card, issued at the same time as mine.

So, for those who asked me to fill them in when I checked this out-- No known change in format for the RP cards.

surabi - 11-11-2016 at 08:11 PM

Capitolkat- good you went to the imm. expert and got the goods. The immigration officer who told you that you needed a new card was probably just bored and wanted to screw with you. If there had been a format change, I'm sure all us RPs would have heard about it by now.

As for Dennis and Alm continuing to question whether RP carries with it automatic permission to work, while ignoring all the posts from those RPs who actually do work legally in Mexico stating that it does, I suggest they get up off their computer chairs and go to the immigration office to confirm this, since they are for some unknown reason enjoying disputing this.

surabi - 11-11-2016 at 08:16 PM

Capitolkat- good you went to the imm. expert and got the goods. The immigration officer who told you that you needed a new card was probably just bored and wanted to screw with you. If there had been a format change, I'm sure all us RPs would have heard about it by now.

As for Dennis and Alm continuing to question whether RP carries with it automatic permission to work, while ignoring all the posts from those RPs who actually do work legally in Mexico stating that it does, I suggest they get up off their computer chairs and go to the immigration office to confirm this, since they are for some unknown reason enjoying disputing this.

karenintx - 11-12-2016 at 05:15 PM

Thanks for the update Capitolkat.

I made a quick trip NOB last week. Over the years I have gotten to know a few of the INM agents at the SJD airport. While doing my departing paper work I ask the INM agent a few questions.
1. Has the R/P format changed? He said no.
2. Is INM requiring any R/P to update their cards? He said no.
3. Will my R/P ever expire? He said no.

He did say that if I want to get my Mexican citizenship I could do so. I did not think about asking about the working requirements but then I have the best job in the world..."retirement"!!!



I agree, I think the INM was bored and messing with you.