BajaNomad

Name the canyons west of Laguna Salada?

geoffff - 3-30-2018 at 11:10 PM

Writing up my last trip into the Laguna Salada area, I wanted to properly name the canyons I visited. As with PaulW's in his recent posting about the canyons east side of San Pedro Martir, I thought I might now try to list all the canyons in the east side of Sierra de Juarez and their names. Yes, I'm a bit of a nerd like that :)

It turned out to be surprisingly difficult! Many of the sources conflict. I looked at Google Maps, Bruce Barber's Of Sea and Sand book, various old articles in Desert Magazine, Rob Williams' Guadalupe Canyon Guidebook, INEGI, and the Baja Almanac. (Desert Magazine doesn't really count, as they have hand-drawn maps.) These sources usually have the canyons listed named in the same north/south order, but their maps point out different canyons. Here's what I've found so far:


(click to enlarge)

Cantú Palms - I presume what I have labeled in green is correct, as that's where I went. The others are close, except of Sea and Sand.
Cañon el Tajo - The majority of sources agree, but not INEGI. Shouldn't INEGI be the ultimate authority?
Vibora Canyon - This name only appears in the maps of the Guadalupe Guidebook, but its two maps disagree! Desert magazine calls it "Petroglyph Canyon". I visited this and did find petroglyphs.
Cañon la Mora - Most sources show this as one of the canyons I hiked on my last trip, but Baja Almanac shows a different location. And again the Guadalupe Guidebook maps show two different places.
El Palomar - I'm pretty sure Of Sea and Sand gets this wrong.

Does anyone have the definitive answers here? DavidK?

-- Geoff


[Edited on 3-31-2018 by geoffff]

geoffff - 3-30-2018 at 11:17 PM



Here are some of my source maps. Click to open.

Of Sand and Sea (my annotations in orange), and Baja Almanac:


Desert Magazine: July 1950, June 1958, Jan 1967:


PaulW - 3-31-2018 at 07:43 AM

Good job Geoffff, You are way ahead of my effort doing the same.
I trust INEGI, but it so time consuming that my updates for the south area have been neglected.
FYI, I have found I have to make INEGI prints of the area of study from the valley floor all the way to the ridge line. That usually involves two images. Then I trace all the drainage's on the prints with a soft pencil all the way from the ridge line to the valley and try to find a label along the way. Of course INEGI neglects to label many of the canyons or drainage paths so then I go to other references.
When I give up on finding a name I choose a landmark off the INEGI map and go with that. When choosing a name I try to avoid the local names that only the locals use. Example: Azufre (a SCORE label)/ Parral (INEGI) /Crazy Horse (local) are all the same Arroyo.

In the south area I have the advantage of local inquiries that is not possible up north. Then I get the multiple names and some input is good. Of Course down south I have the ability to drive to most of them.

David K - 3-31-2018 at 07:46 AM

What a super-great job, Geoff!

INEGI is wrong a lot with place names... often switching with a nearby arroyo (El Volcán & Zamora, for example). Some government mapper is Mexico City are maybe to blame?

Baja Almanac uses the INEGI maps, so the same mistakes are duplicated except where Landon has changed them.

Bruce Barber has a ton of passion but he was not always careful when labeling or adding roads onto the maps he used, but overall the best since John Robinson (Camping and Climbing in Baja).

Here is John's Map from 1967:



Close up:




[Edited on 3-31-2018 by David K]

geoffff - 3-31-2018 at 11:22 AM

Thanks, David, for the maps from John Robinson's Camping and Climbing in Baja. I actually ordered my own copy a few days ago, but I got impatient waiting for it.

Here is my updated map incorporating Camping and Climbing. I'm not sure if the picture is any clearer now :) Robinson's a hand-drawn map so I shounldn't take it too literally.

Torrentes - Robinson seems to place it directly below Cantu Palmes, where INEGI has Agua Grande (?)
Tajo - Everyone except INEGI and Of Sea and Sand agree with Robinson here.
Mora - Placed at the southern option that matches Baja Almanac.



-- Geoff

[Edit: I crossed off some of the likely errors, which includes most of Of Sea and Sand.]

[Edited on 3-31-2018 by geoffff]

David K - 3-31-2018 at 12:55 PM

Super!

Maderita - 3-31-2018 at 10:34 PM

Geoff, As to the location of Tajo, the old topographic map had labeled the wrong canyon. The upper (northern-most arrow that you drew) is the correct location. The arrow tip intersects with a horizontal grid line on your map. The upper canyon has two main forks. El Gran Trono Blanco, at the top of the escarpment, is between the two, above the approximate center of the canyon. The 1600' granite face is a prominent feature from Laguna Salada. Tajo is the biggest of the eastside canyons.
Easily recognizable on maps/aerial views, the arc of granite crags above Tajo (approx 300' high) extends westward onto the plateau. That granitic arc is on the eastern edge of the El Topo Pluton, an interesting geologic feature. Not apparent from the ground level, I was the one to inform the owner of Rancho El Topo about his pluton! ja ja
I see that you have Canyon Alamar on your second map. Yes, it is between La Mora and Palomar. I've explored the upper reaches on horseback. My vaquero friends have descended and ascended the canyon on horseback, with difficulty. I can't verify that the arrow is on the exact canyon. that would require some time studying topos and Google Earth.

geoffff - 10-3-2024 at 09:23 PM

I came across this interesting pair of 1963 articles by Roger K. Mitchell in Four Wheeler magazine, where he explores these canyons between Sierra Juarez and Laguna Salada in a WWII weapons carrier truck and a WC-53 Carry-All.

He fittingly says,
Quote:

One of the frustrating aspects of traveling in Baja California is that it is often impossible to pin down places with names. This is especially true with mountains and canyons.

A certain mountain or canyon may have two or three different names depending upon with whom you are talking or what maps you happen to have in your hand at the time. We found ourselves in such a position. This could be Canyon La Mora, but on the other hand, we had passed several smaller canyons so this could be Canyon Alamar, or perhaps “un canyon sin nobre” — a nameless canyon."


Hah! So true!

Locations include: La Rumorosa, Canyon de las Palmas Azules, Cantu Palms, Tajo Canyon, Carrizo, Guadalupe Canyon, Pozo Cenizo, Palomar, Santa Isabel, Agua Caliente / La Palmita, the Pole Line Road, and the Jamau climb up into Sierra Jaurez. Here is his map:



And some teaser photos.











Here are the full articles:

19631000--Four-Wheeler--Bajas-Sierra-Juarez-Canyons--by-Roger-K-Mitchell.pdf
19631100--Four-Wheeler--Exploring-the-Canyons-of-the-Sierra-Juarez--Part-2--by-Roger-K-Mitchell.pdf

Tioloco - 10-4-2024 at 02:01 AM

Very interesting thread, thank you

David K - 10-4-2024 at 07:00 AM

Thank you, Geoff!

PaulW - 10-4-2024 at 09:22 AM

Thanks for opening the link
I need to update my lists.

PaulW - 10-4-2024 at 09:22 AM

Thanks for opening the link
I need to update my lists.

geoffff - 10-4-2024 at 12:02 PM

This is what I have so far. Any mistakes? There are still some unnamed canyons.


(As always, click my image to expand.)

David K - 10-4-2024 at 12:13 PM

Great and uncluttered map! I will add it to my VivaBaja.com maps page once you feel it is ready.

PaulW - 10-4-2024 at 01:07 PM

* Is it possible to compare names I published to your list? My list also has many references.
* I have diligently published then coords of all the canyons I visited, Can you do the same?
* And yes INEGI should be the primary source if properly validated for their many mistakes. They often put the label in the wrong place, but one can still use the name by following the drainage.
* As of now the Almanac still is a great source and you have ignored most of the canyons name of the Almanac.
=== =
Quote: Originally posted by geoffff  
Writing up my last trip into the Laguna Salada area, I wanted to properly name the canyons I visited. As with PaulW's in his recent posting about the canyons east side of San Pedro Martir, I thought I might now try to list all the canyons in the east side of Sierra de Juarez and their names. Yes, I'm a bit of a nerd like that :)

It turned out to be surprisingly difficult! Many of the sources conflict. I looked at Google Maps, Bruce Barber's Of Sea and Sand book, various old articles in Desert Magazine, Rob Williams' Guadalupe Canyon Guidebook, INEGI, and the Baja Almanac. (Desert Magazine doesn't really count, as they have hand-drawn maps.) These sources usually have the canyons listed named in the same north/south order, but their maps point out different canyons. Here's what I've found so far:


Cantú Palms - I presume what I have labeled in green is correct, as that's where I went. The others are close, except of Sea and Sand.
Cañon el Tajo - The majority of sources agree, but not INEGI. Shouldn't INEGI be the ultimate authority?
Vibora Canyon - This name only appears in the maps of the Guadalupe Guidebook, but its two maps disagree! Desert magazine calls it "Petroglyph Canyon". I visited this and did find petroglyphs.
Cañon la Mora - Most sources show this as one of the canyons I hiked on my last trip, but Baja Almanac shows a different location. And again the Guadalupe Guidebook maps show two different places.
El Palomar - I'm pretty sure Of Sea and Sand gets this wrong.

Does anyone have the definitive answers here? DavidK?

-- Geoff


[Edited on 3-31-2018 by geoffff]

geoffff - 10-4-2024 at 02:49 PM

Hi Paul, I think my names do match Baja Almanac pretty well! The only conflicts I can find are:

• I list "Agua Grande" and Baja Almanac lists "Cantu Las Palmas"
• the Palomar canyon is called "Escondido" in the Almanac


(click to enlarge)

geoffff - 10-4-2024 at 02:54 PM

Here are my canyon locations in Google Earth: Laguna-Salada--canyons--2024.kml
Code:
Name Lat Lon Notes Cantu Palms 32.3497 -115.8325 Agua Grande 32.3334 -115.8540 Baja Almanac calls this "Cantu Las Palmas" Tanques (Torrentes) 32.2998 -115.8548 Tajo 32.2629 -115.8578 ? 32.2476 -115.8505 ? 32.2148 -115.8121 El Carrizo 32.1994 -115.8185 Guadalupe 32.1501 -115.7924 Vibora 32.1245 -115.7821 ? 32.0904 -115.7501 ? 32.0717 -115.7256 Mora 32.0276 -115.7481 Alamar 31.9940 -115.7333 Palomar 31.9363 -115.7631 Baja Almanac calls the upper end Escondido Enmedio 31.9023 -115.7275 Santa Isabel 31.8845 -115.7314 Genoveva 31.8699 -115.7328 Palmar 31.8626 -115.7127 El Mano 31.8095 -115.6728




[Edited on 10-4-2024 by geoffff]

Maderita - 10-4-2024 at 05:02 PM

geoffff,

Your work on this is appreciated. Good job :)

I can verify with 100% certainty that your coordinates, 32.2629 -115.8578 are in Cañón del Tajo. Many maps, including older INEGI topographical maps misplaced the largest of these canyons!

100% certain that you have identified Carrizo correctly. Your marker at 32.1994 -115.8185 is a few hundred yards NNE of the magic spot.
Trailhead/end of 4x4 road parking is at 32.198303 -115.801283

I'm not certain about Cañón Alamar. I can ask a rancher friend who has ridden horseback from the desert to Rancho Alamar on the plateau. I'm wondering if Cañón Alamar may be the next canyon to the north of your marker? It's a jumble of twisty 4x4 roads on the plateau. I was just there last month on horseback and by 4x4 van. From Rancho Alamar to Rancho Agua Fria at (32.028012 -115.800666) and 1.75 air miles beyond to the ESE. If Tito Dukes' corrals are at the mouth of Cañón Alamar, then you have marked it correctly.

Advisory to desert canyon visitors: Any canyon, except Guadalupe, with year-round water should be presumed to have illicit marihuana growing. Vehicles were torched at the trailhead for Carrizo. I stopped going there in the mid 1990s due to the clear warnings. Growing starts around March, with preparation & bringing supplies in February. Harvest is in the fall months. If there is a safer season to visit, December and January may be best. Fortunately, the colder months are good for hiking.


geoffff - 10-4-2024 at 05:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Maderita  

I'm not certain about Cañón Alamar. I can ask a rancher friend who has ridden horseback from the desert to Rancho Alamar on the plateau.


Thanks! Asking locals seems like the best info !!

I will post my proposed locations plotted on INEGI topo maps later when I have time.

geoffff - 10-4-2024 at 05:18 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Maderita  

Advisory to desert canyon visitors: Any canyon, except Guadalupe, with year-round water should be presumed to have illicit marihuana growing. Vehicles were torched at the trailhead for Carrizo. I stopped going there in the mid 1990s due to the clear warnings. Growing starts around March, with preparation & bringing supplies in February. Harvest is in the fall months. If there is a safer season to visit, December and January may be best. Fortunately, the colder months are good for hiking.


Thanks for the warning! I posted an experience with the canyon you mention a number of years ago, and then was convinced (for seemingly valid reasons) to remove my post. Exciting story... But the short of it is, I saw them before they saw me. (I have photos.) And my vehicle wasn't torched.

I've been up a few of the other canyons, and have never had any issues in those places.

I was hoping that with the legalization of marijuana, these issues would go away.... (?)

[Edited on 10-5-2024 by geoffff]

geoffff - 10-4-2024 at 10:28 PM

Here are my proposed canyon names plotted on INEGI 50K and INEGI 250K. Click to open:



[Edited on 10-5-2024 by geoffff]

Maderita - 10-5-2024 at 04:52 PM

Geoffff,

Have you thought about adding the northern canyons of Cañón los Llanos and Cañón del Muerto? I have an image of the GPS track for hiking Cañón del Muerto if you want it.

I don't know about Torrentes or Agua Grande. Nor do I plan to get more familiar, due to a safety concern. Are you aware of the proposed PHES pipeline in 2018, several miles north of Tajo? The developers mapped a pipeline route from the desert floor to the plateau in what they called "Cañón Cascada". I'd never heard of that canyon name previously. It could be their invented name for the location. I have GPS coordinates and Google Earth images if you want them.

An ambitous hiker did a canyon north of Tajo, calling it Cañón El Comillo, presumably named for the nearby spire/summit, Bufa del Comillo del Diablo. He may have invented the name for the canyon. I have an image of his Google Earth track.

geoffff - 10-5-2024 at 05:25 PM

No, I had not heard about those other canyon names.

I am up for adding Cañón los Llanos and Cañón del Muerto if we think there is enough documentation of those names being used. GPS tracks would be great!

Thanks for the info on the PHES power pipeline. I just saw your posting on that topic.

Maderita - 10-5-2024 at 06:34 PM

geoffff,
I can confirm that you have Cañón Alamar in the correct place. The mouth of the canyon is at (edited to read): 32.008069 -115.707224
I just got off the phone with a rancher who runs cattle in the canyons.
He confirmed that the Dukes' ranches are at Alamar.

[Edited on 10-6-2024 by Maderita]

geoffff - 10-5-2024 at 06:45 PM

Great, thanks!!

But wait -- those coordinates are not where I put Alamar.

Your coordinates look like what I have labeled as Mora....(?)




[Edited on 10-6-2024 by geoffff]

Maderita - 10-5-2024 at 06:53 PM

geoffff,

Cañón del Muerto aka: Cañón de los Muertos is at
32.538996 -115.942979
That point is part way up the canyon, so that the road can be seen which leads to mines and a ranch.
Several ecotour groups have hiked the route, starting from the La Cuesta gasolinera or the military checkpoint next to it on highway 2D.

geoffff - 10-5-2024 at 06:54 PM

I see Cañon de los Muertos, thanks! And INEGI agrees.

Maderita - 10-5-2024 at 07:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by geoffff  
Great, thanks!!

But wait -- those coordinates are not where I put Alamar.

Your coordinates look like what I have labeled as Mora....(?)




[Edited on 10-6-2024 by geoffff]


Oops, I must be tired or read off of the wrong note pad. Cañón Alamar is at 32.008069 1115.707224 I belive that is Tito Dukes' ranch. I will correct/edit my post above.

Maderita - 10-5-2024 at 07:51 PM

Cañón los Llanos headwaters pass by Rancho Picachos, elevation 3,800", 3.5 air miles SE of La Rumorosa. 32.488210 -116.013788 A brief walk northeast along the arroyo will take you to a steep drop in the canyon. Scramble several minutes over huge boulders to reach the waterfalls (cascadas) below. We have a few 5th class routes in the canyon, and an aid route pictured below.

A few miles down canyon (not recommending that anyone hike that), the main canyon intersects with the old dirt road to La Rumorosa (the pre-1950s) route from Mexicali. The canyon arroyo intersects with highway 2D, to the west of the Cuesta gasolinera at
32.562349 -115.952558


"El Vaquero Galactico" A2 multipitch - Cañón de los Llanos, Sierra de Juárez

geoffff - 10-5-2024 at 08:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Maderita  

Oops, I must be tired or read off of the wrong note pad. Cañón Alamar is at 32.008069 1115.707224 I belive that is Tito Dukes' ranch. I will correct/edit my post above.


That looks right!

In 2019 I drove as far as the fence across the canyon just east of that rancho, and stopped there because I wasn't sure I was allowed to drive up the canyon.

I get shy about driving through active ranches.


fence at 32.0100, -115.6976


Aerial shot of Alamar, looking west. My Van is in the narrows, and the rancho is just beyond, to the right.

[Edited on 10-6-2024 by geoffff]

geoffff - 10-5-2024 at 08:57 PM


Tito Duke's Ranch

Ateo - 10-5-2024 at 09:41 PM

I clicked on this thread, cause I knew there would be good photos, considering the posters. Thanks.

PaulW big list of Canyons

PaulW - 10-7-2024 at 10:03 AM

I just added Geoffff's northern canyons to my list from the pole line south to Matomi.
I appreciate all his effort that I never got around to do.
My list got started by making trails to the south canyons and many of the trails are shown. I also added a bunch of landmarks I found interesting.

See the attached KML

Attachment: Canyon Search WP.kml (231kB)
This file has been downloaded 73 times

geoffff - 10-7-2024 at 11:54 AM

Thanks for all that info, Paul!

Here is what I have at this point for the Laguna Salada area:


(click to expand)

Maderita - 10-7-2024 at 01:11 PM

geoffff & PaulW,

Thanks for all of your effort on this project. Good job! I have just enough playing around with it to know how difficult it is to sort out the conflicting names, conflicting locations, and coordinates.

Fatboy - 10-7-2024 at 04:04 PM

Thanks for the links to the old magazine articles!

David K - 3-14-2025 at 03:12 PM

I just saw some nice images/ video of a white sand bottom canyon that was identified as Cañon La Angostura. The person who posted it (Victor Du) said it was south of Guadalupe Canyon... I asked if was La Vibora (but I didn't see that in La Vibora. I asked how far south of Guadalupe... stay tuned.

See on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victor.duran.547727

[Edited on 3-14-2025 by David K]

geoffff - 3-14-2025 at 03:55 PM

Looks like they posted the location as 31.9746, -115.6729

I've been there! INEGI calls it part of Arroyo el Palomar.

It's a nice little sandy drive.


(I don't have a photo of exactly the same location.)



[Edited on 3-14-2025 by geoffff]

4x4abc - 3-14-2025 at 07:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
I just saw some nice images/ video of a white sand bottom canyon that was identified as Cañon La Angostura. The person who posted it (Victor Du) said it was south of Guadalupe Canyon... I asked if was La Vibora (but I didn't see that in La Vibora. I asked how far south of Guadalupe... stay tuned.

See on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/victor.duran.547727

[Edited on 3-14-2025 by David K]


Cañon La Angostura is correct
great rock art!

David K - 3-14-2025 at 09:34 PM

Why is that correct? I presume you have a map that isn't in this thread.

4x4abc - 3-14-2025 at 11:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Why is that correct? I presume you have a map that isn't in this thread.


I have that name in my database
no idea what map it is from
my memory is not as good as yours

Angostura.jpg - 300kB

PaulW - 3-15-2025 at 09:34 AM

Agree. el Palomar is the same as C Angostuira. Both names are good.
Google earth shows both images are essentially the same.

David K - 3-15-2025 at 10:26 AM

Thank you Harald and Paul and Geoff!!!

4x4abc - 3-17-2025 at 09:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW  
Agree. el Palomar is the same as C Angostuira. Both names are good.
Google earth shows both images are essentially the same.


el Palomar is not the same as la Angostura
Angostura means narrows
so it applies only to the narrow section of el Palomar canyon