BajaNomad - Do I need a passport to travel to Mazatclan

Do I need a passport to travel to Mazatclan

palvarez - 2-12-2019 at 06:20 PM

Does anyone know if i need a passport to travel from Ensenada to Mazaclan on the bus

gnukid - 2-12-2019 at 07:11 PM

If you're Mexican, no, if you are a foreigner yes, legally you need a valid FMM from INM to be in the country which is attainable only with a passport. You will be passing quite a ways through many inspection stops but they may never ask to see the FMM and you don't need an FMM to buy the bus ticket and you may never be asked for it, but, if you are asked to have one, and there is a chance you will be asked at some point, then you won't have it and yon't be able to get one, since you have no passport, so in that case you would be asked to leave.

[Edited on 2-13-2019 by gnukid]

palvarez - 2-12-2019 at 07:29 PM

So does asked to leave mean ARRESTED and DEPORTED

I have lived in ensenada of course for 1 1/2 years without a passport and never been asked but i have been told that if i travel to the southern region of mexico this can become an issue

JoeJustJoe - 2-12-2019 at 08:05 PM

My God, we have a suspected American illegal alien in Mexico!

Don't worry I'm sure most everyone here will look the other way and give you the advice you seek, but if you were Mexican, asking questions about living in the US undocumented, the team members here would be highly upset with you.

palvarez - 2-12-2019 at 08:09 PM

joe dont start it ive been told what car you drive and your address.... Ill deport you as an enemy of the almighty trump...

motoged - 2-13-2019 at 01:22 AM

Do we have a new troll here?

"Mazatclan"????

gnukid - 2-13-2019 at 05:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

My God, we have a suspected American illegal alien in Mexico!

Don't worry I'm sure most everyone here will look the other way and give you the advice you seek, but if you were Mexican, asking questions about living in the US undocumented, the team members here would be highly upset with you.

Joey, apparently you are unaware, it is the legal policy in over 500 USA sanctuary cities to not ask for, share or enforce illegal residency status of undocumented illegal immigrants, instead, benefits are provided, financial support for utility bills, housing, medical care centers, labor centers to locate and provide non-taxed income for work etc., as a policy USA provides institutional financial support for 10's of millions of people who don't pursue legal status, who don't have any legal id, drivers licenses, no insurance, invalid registration of vehicles, unpaid utility bills, etc. unless of course you are a legal resident then any failure to correctly identify your change of address on your documentation within 10 days, or any failure to maintain up-to-date documentation is an offense you will be cited for and charged?

In Mexico any identified undocumented illegal immigrants are immediately expelled from the country in the most strict enforcement.

David K - 2-13-2019 at 08:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Do we have a new troll here?

"Mazatclan"????

One time could be a typo... But twice?? What do you think Ged,
is this a gang or 'clan' in Mazatlán?

JoeJustJoe - 2-13-2019 at 10:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid

Gnukid, I'm well aware of sanctuary cities in the US, and I fully support, sanctuary cities, especially since those cities are protected by the Tenth Amendment, which provides for the separation of federal and state powers, and the fact it makes our cities safer, with undocumented aliens, willing to report crimes, if they know they will not be deported.

Do we really want our local street cops, pulling over mothers, taking their children to school, or worse, pulling over kids walking to school, and asking for their papers? The US is not N-zi Germany.

As far as I know, undocumented aliens, can not receive welfare, for the most part, unless they are US citizens, or legally authorized to be in the US. Now if you're talking about the kids, their kids, may very well be US citizens, and have the same rights as all other American Citizens.

The US provides emergency medical to anyone, and that includes undocumented Mexican workers. What do you want people dying outside of hospitals? But undocumented do not receive regular medical care.

I don't think utility companies, check immigration status, but I do know for sure, if you don't pay your utility bill, they will shut off your utilities like electricity or water.

The fact is all undocumented aliens/workers, pay taxes both directly and indirectly, like rent, and local taxes, and if they were not a benefit to the US, the Federal government, would actually enforce it's immigration laws.

Most undocumented workers, are hard working, like all those workers on Trump's golf courses, where Trump's managers, is alleged to have provided fake IDs, to it's workers, and for sure, they never used E-Verify, like most businesses that turn a blind eye to the legal status of it's workers.

Regarding Mexico's harsh immigration policies. What a laugh!

Yeah, they may be tough on some immigrants, from poor Latin American, countries, but we don't hear too much about American illegal aliens, getting deported from Mexico, although we hear they stepped up efforts to check papers the last couple of years.

I have yet to hear anyone getting deported for not having a FMM card.

Really, off hand, I could only recall Nancy Conway, the Mexico hater, was asked to leave Mexico, in so many words, but not even she was really kicked out.

I'm often in Baja, armed with only a passcard, and no FMM card. And lets say they deport me, because I'm a US Citizen, I could jump in my car, and drive back in Mexico, and resume my fun in Mexico.

Mexico's immigration laws are even more lax than the US immigration laws, and just about anyone could live in Mexico, with papers or no papers.

motoged - 2-13-2019 at 10:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Do we have a new troll here?

"Mazatclan"????

One time could be a typo... But twice?? What do you think Ged,
is this a gang or 'clan' in Mazatlán?

Oh, probably just another socialist plot to destroy all good in the world....

John Harper - 2-13-2019 at 01:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Do we have a new troll here?

"Mazatclan"????

I think he means MAGA KLAN?

John

JoeJustJoe - 2-13-2019 at 03:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

[
I don't care who you are, you would double your credibility overnight by simply ripping the comma key off of your keyboard!

You sound like another angry old man. I would hate to kick my ball over your fence.

Instead of making comments about my grammar, you should watch your own grammar.

You really overuse the semicolon, and I would cut down on the smileys, if I were you.

Howard - 2-13-2019 at 04:04 PM

Some of you people must lead very sad lives to have the responses that you do. If this is the best you have to do with your time, look in the mirror and move on and try and get a life.
Sad, very sad.

Maybe the poster is a troll, maybe he's not, answer him if you like and move on.

gnukid - 2-14-2019 at 05:52 AM

Joe Perhaps you lack experience to know. You misunderstand the realities that separate undocumented people comparing Mexico to USA.

There is a road from Cabo to San Francisco that has been traveled forever called the El Camino Real. Today, there are people who live in campers along the road way. In Mexico, any foreigner without proper papers, license, registration will eventually be expelled back to their home country. They also may not work for remuneration.

In the USA, there are cities and courts who have created legal protection for foreigners to live without ID, license, registration, and they provide a legally protected place to gather, every 5-10 miles, daily to meet and find work, to be paid under the table, with no taxes withheld, they may not be persecuted or questioned, their personal info and criminal history may not be shared.

If you visit the doctor, let's say El Camino Hospital, and you enter and speak English and say you have no insurance and can't pay, they will have you fill out a form with address and name that is entered in a computer and permanent record and you can get care but they will bill you and the bill will be pursued, though not aggressively, the bill exists and often will be hundreds to thousands of dollars.

If you walk in to the EL Camino Hospital and speak Spanish, and say you can't pay and have no insurance, you will be directed to a different door, actually one flight downstairs, and there you will fill paper work that does not require an address or real name and there inso computer entry. They will ask if you need support for utilities, food, and many other services, you will see a doctor and receive medication that is in the form of samples and the cost will be zero with no bill and you can walk out with hundreds of dollars of support.

If you speak Spanish and are Mexican and are in an accident, you will not be cited, you will not be responsible and your car will not be towed away or impounded. If you speak English and have an accident you will be cited and be in big trouble if you don't have proper documentation.

In many sanctuary cities, if you are undocumented foreigner it is now legal to live in your car, you may not be harassed for living in a car with no documentation and no reg, etc. But if you are a USA citizen you will be harassed and often arrested simply for being somewhere, e.g. sleeping in a car, parked in parking lot after hours, sitting outside in the same place for too long etc... You will receive a ticket and it will result in a fine that must be addressed or you will end up with a warrant for arrest and increasing cost for resolution.

If you have a criminal record, even as a multiple time felon, as a documented citizen or documented foreign English speaker that information will be passed by computer and radio to any official who inquires about your name in response to an investigation or suspicion. If you are a Spanish speaking foreigner with no documentation the information can not be passed from agency to agency in sanctuary cities. These repeat offenders are released in many cases for failure to have adequate shared records.

An example is the case José Inez García Zárate (or Juan Francisco López-Sánchez) in the case of the murder of Kate Steinle. He was an undocumented illegal immigrant deported 5 times, who was consistently released by sanctuary cities due to laws that restricted sharing criminal history for illegal aliens. He shot and killed Kate with a stolen police handgun. he was eventually acquitted due to it not being his fault, he said he accidentally shot her, the gun fired while aiming at a seal.

The point is the laws are applied quite harshly in Mexico on undocumented foreigners, while in the USA, the laws are overwhelmingly protective of undocumented foreigners, and apparently Mexicans in particular, who are allowed to live outside the law and not conform to the same obligations and responsibilities, while citizens and legally documented visitors must pay to play and have no protection from persecution.

Clearly there are two sets of rules that apply in the USA for reasons which are unclear and certainly create a 2 class system that facilitates lawlessness and chaos, while in Mexico that law is applied in a much more consistent manner.

I am not judging the individuals, in fact more than half the people I know in Mexico and the USA both don't have documentation. They are my friends. Most people, like you Joe, don't understand the process and simply cruise along as long as they are allowed. I understand each person has their own reasons for the path they choose. I am merely commenting on the vast difference between the two countries and the vast difference in how the law is applied in USA to these two groups, which does seem to be unfair and create a chaotic society intentionally, where some people have to pay and be responsible and some people do not.

So, now, in the USA the El Camino Real is lined with undocumented foreigners many of whom live in their cars outside the law, and there are vast services provided, from bathrooms, to free wifi lining the road, food, health care, the list goes on and on, the individuals are not responsible for the chaos they create, they don't pay taxes or bills, while their neighbors pay at high rate to support the chaos.

My friends, family and all the business we work at provide support for those undocumented people who need it without question to provide a "leg up". It is customary to donate at least 10% of your income to chariitable non-denominational services as well your time to support those undocumented people living along the El Camino, provide their bathrooms, provide services, clean up the trash, etc.

But wouldn't it be better if the rules were applied more evenly and everyone was educated how and encouraged to be responsible. Just like you Joe, shouldn't you just get the FMM? Buy insurance and keep your documentation up to date?

Why are half the people made to pay the difference for the other half? Why allow some people to be repeat felons continuing on a path of crime and not pursue them while others are harassed for parking more than 12 inches from the curb resulting in heavy fines and arrests?

Now SF and Oakland have the highest violent crime and vehicle robberies in the USA. The police don't come if you are a victim. Actually there is only one case being prosecuted for vehicle robbery in SF today. This is institutionally created societal chaos at its worst creating a dichotomy of people working for and against each other, designed and supported by people who either want to destroy society or don't understand what they are doing, Which is it Joe?

[Edited on 2-14-2019 by gnukid]

DawnPatrol - 2-14-2019 at 06:02 AM

Some great replies...
But that bodes a question:
what is someones objection to NOT get a Passport?

I know, stirring the pot.......

Alan

JoeJustJoe - 2-15-2019 at 11:12 AM

Wow, Gnukid, that is quite a anti-immigrant rant!

I don't know where to start, and really I don't want to spend that much time here, except to say you're mostly wrong, you are mostly hateful, and I don't know if you have been in the hood, because what you describe doesn't happen in most cities, including so-called "sanctuary cities," which in itself is really about community based policing.

I also noticed you cherry picked, the bay area, where it's common for regular houses, to go for $1 million dollars or more, and forces many bay area workers to live in their RVs, along El Camino Real road.

San Francisco, and the surrounding areas have a rich tax base, and they could do things for the poor, that other cities in America, can not.

I understand that " El Camino Hospital, offers the poor, who can not otherwise qualify for medicare, some type of charity care, regardless of immigration status. It sounds like a great program to me, and not all hospitals are as generous. The fact still stands, undocumented aliens, for the most part do not qualify for welfare, or free medical care, although emergency care is available to anyone, and there are always free clinics, and good hospitals like El Camino, that will help a limited amount of the poor.

In the hood where I grew up in East LA, police are called pigs, and the border patrol is called La Migra, and I call them jack-booted thugs! Los Angeles, was where the so-called sanctuary cities started and then San Francisco.( Sanctuary city is not an official government term. It has no legal meaning. )

There is nothing in the law that stops the police or the border patrol, from doing their work, and arresting those that break the law. In fact, a few months back, Jeff Sessions, declared war on the sanctuary cities in California, and sent it's jack-booted thugs, to round up the dangerous criminals, working at the Sizzler, whose real crime was trying to feed their families and maybe send some money back home in Mexico.

Where you object Gnukid is that many local police agencies, do not share their information with the federal government, nor do they want to waste their resources cracking down on undocumented workers in restaurants or in the parking lots at Home Depot.

Gnukid, you also seem upset that police aren't allowed to just stop and question dark-skinned people walking on the street speaking Spanish.

I'm sorry, but in the US, we have 4th amendment laws that apply to everybody even undocumented Mexican workers, so unless the police have probably cause or reasonable suspicion, they can't stop you on the street for speaking Spanish. The thing that makes LA or SFO, a little different than other cops in racist cities in the south. Is those other cops in racist cities, do not really follow the constitution or their own polices, and they crack down on just a whim. Even in LA or SFO, cops can be pigs, and will harass undocumented Mexicans, and if they get arrested, they may even share that information with the FEDS.

I pity the criminal undocumented alien, who breaks a law in Los Angeles, and wave around a "sanctuary city" banner. It's not going to work, he is going to jail. Will he get deported? That depends on the crime. If it's a first offense, and misdemeanor charge. Probably not, and that's only fair.

Oh no, are you really going to bring up young white girl, Kate Steinle, who was killed accidentally by José Inez García Zárate?

Yes, stop the presses, whenever a pretty white girl is killed. But the fact is, it was a freak accident, and he was acquitted for the charge of murder. If you ask me, the real outrage, was that José Inez García Zárate, spent 20 months in jail over a marijuana conviction! However, I'm sure he will be deported this time, and he will probably stay in Mexico.

One final note, that you Gunkid, may not be aware of what was happening in the hood. The police would often set up road blocks, and stop every driver, and when they found a driver with no drivers license, usually an undocumented Mexican, but it could be anybody. The cops, would tow the car away, take it to the tow yard, and keep the car there for 30 days, while the tow storage charge added up, which often amounted for more than the car was worth.

So now some cities in LA, changed that policy, and if someone is caught driving without a drivers license, they give them about 20 minutes, to call a license driver to get the car, and then they only write a traffic citation, instead of a death sentence for the car.

gnukid - 2-16-2019 at 11:52 AM

To clarify for those who are apparently unaware, any law abiding non-criminal person may successfully enter either Mexico or USA. There is no reason to be an illegal alien other than a lack of respect for the country and their laws.

Many people are apparently unaware of how easy it is to successfully enter as a visitor in both USA and Mexico so they enter illegally and that starts them on a bad path.

To begin, one does need to have personal identification documentation, a passport, a home address and a destination address, a travel itinerary showing a plan to arrive and depart, demonstration of adequate savings and one must apply at a port of entry. Both USA and Mexico offer translators to assist in the process. If you want to work the process varies but is possible for those who want to work.

All of my Mexican friends and their children who want to visit me in USA now have a visa, it seemed impossible to them at first, when I explained you need an id, passport, home and destination, itinerary and demonstrable savings, then they found out it wasn't hard at all, (in fact not having a visa is really hard and more expensive and stressful) you just need to plan and be prepared. Same goes for friends who want visit Mexico and even work. The process to apply and receive a visitor or work visa is well documented and is open to any law abiding person.

Same goes for DL, care reg and insurance. It seems hard until you find out how easy it is, and then you realize what a pain to not have documentation.

Furthermore, Health insurance is free for those cannot afford it in USA. For those who can pay a sliding pay scale exist to subsidize what you can not afford. Change of job or address is a qualifying event that allows you sign up any day of the year.

[Edited on 2-16-2019 by gnukid]

David K - 2-16-2019 at 12:06 PM

I am leaving for Baja soon and will report on how the FMM procedure is for me today, when I get back online.

gnukid - 2-16-2019 at 12:24 PM

Joe, You really like to frame Nomads as anti immigrant or anti Mexico when in fact practically all of us are immigrants to either USA or Mexico and we all love Mexico. Your obsession with framing Nomads as anti-immigrant sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

The problem I have with policing is that it is not applied evenly. For example, speaking of the 4th amendment, once I was at a party with the president of Argentina, and someone mentioned the police were breaking into my van outside. I went outside with with my rum drink and yep there was SF Chief of Police Greg Suhr breaking into my van. I waited and watched and then approached him and reminded him of the 4th amendment. He said anywhere within a 100 miles of the border was a no constitution zone and he can do whatever he wants and needed to clear the suspicious looking van due to a visiting dignitary.

Recently I was riding my bike on my own street and a police man stopped me for riding in a meandering style which raised his suspicion. He had me on the ground with his boots on my head screaming steroid induced threats at me. He had no reason to stop me nor reason to request I identify myself, but I had no choice and showed my id to show I lived on that very street so I was released.

I understand the constitutional case involving the tow company scams with police kickbacks up and down California, since I know the tow guys and the cops. I was at a pizza joint the other day and my tow buddy and some cops were crying about the loss of all that income. The cases are public info. Now, of course you can not tow the vehicle of unlicensed driver involved in an accident, that is the point I made. Because unfair police policies now unlicensed drivers are free to drive up and down the el camino and police are afraid to cite them, because of all these historical constitutional cases, because they have to wait for not 20 minutes but at least 45 minutes for a friend to arrive and drive the car away, even though it has no registration, no insurance and the driver had no license and was in an accident? If every cop has to spend an hour with every unlicensed driver just so they can drive away again and they give you some fake name and never follow up on the ticket anyway its a waste of time.

But, if my license plate light is dim I am pulled over and harassed and cited, but police won't come if you are a victim of a vehicle robbery. They won't cite the thousands of unlicensed vehicles with no lights on the side of the El Camino, but they will cite the legal vehicles?

I use my off road racing radios to also monitor emergency frequencies so I hear these police discussions all day and night. They don't want to bother undocumented people because they have no id or formal address so that opens up a can for worms. It is not profitable and it's a waste of time, so police go after the sure thing, easy pickings, like a legal vehicle with a dim brake light.

What's worse, is people like yourself promote illegal activity as though it is some right, or just the way life is and the rest of should pay to support this illegal activity as part of acceptable behavior. But the truth is, it's not hard to be legal, its actually much harder to be illegal.

I am a friend to many types of people, and it shocks me how many people just don't understand how to register a car, get a license, get insurance or even health care in both Mexico and USA.

The problem I have with you Joe, is this nonsense that having a huge population of non-documented people is just part of life and something we should embrace , support and encourage. The truth is that a two class system of documented and undocumented populations promotes chaos, division, criminal activity, human trafficking, abuse, exploitation and causes permanent irreparable physical and emotional harm as well stunts personal growth and success fo those people. Anyone who promotes illegal immigration has no compassion for the people who suffer unspeakable harm at the hands of a massive criminal network that profits off the backs of exploited people, which is supported and encouraged largely out of ignorance, and duplicitous virtue signaling.

[Edited on 2-16-2019 by gnukid]

JoeJustJoe - 2-16-2019 at 01:00 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

I am leaving for Baja soon and will report on how the FMM procedure is for me today, when I get back online.

Walking or driving?

Ask them why most drivers just blow by not stopping and getting the FMM?

Ask them why they have no procedures in place to check everyone entering Mexico, and ensuring they get a FMM, if they are foreigners?

Ask then if they even care, if somebody is making a day trip in Baja, and if all of them bother to give them a FMM, for short trips?

Ask them for the penalty of being in Mexico without a FMM, and if there is a penalty, does it include deportation on the spot warning or what?

And ask them if you have to return the FMM when leaving Mexico by foot or car, and what's the procedure if so?

JoeJustJoe - 2-16-2019 at 01:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid

To clarify for those who are apparently unaware, any law abiding non-criminal person may successfully enter either Mexico or USA. There is no reason to be an illegal alien other than a lack of respect for the country and their laws.

Many people are apparently unaware of how easy it is to successfully enter as a visitor in both USA and Mexico so they enter illegally and that starts them on a bad path.

To begin, one does need to have personal identification documentation, a passport, a home address and a destination address, a travel itinerary showing a plan to arrive and depart, demonstration of adequate savings and one must apply at a port of entry. Both USA and Mexico offer translators to assist in the process. If you want to work the process varies but is possible for those who want to work.

All of my Mexican friends and their children who want to visit me in USA now have a visa, it seemed impossible to them at first, when I explained you need an id, passport, home and destination, itinerary and demonstrable savings, then they found out it wasn't hard at all, (in fact not having a visa is really hard and more expensive and stressful) you just need to plan and be prepared. Same goes for friends who want visit Mexico and even work. The process to apply and receive a visitor or work visa is well documented and is open to any law abiding person.

Same goes for DL, care reg and insurance. It seems hard until you find out how easy it is, and then you realize what a pain to not have documentation.

Furthermore, Health insurance is free for those cannot afford it in USA. For those who can pay a sliding pay scale exist to subsidize what you can not afford. Change of job or address is a qualifying event that allows you sign up any day of the year.

[Edited on 2-16-2019 by gnukid]

I don't know what your smoking Gnukid, but it's laughable that you claim it's so easy for either Mexicans or other Hispanics, can visit or live in the US, very easily, or that Americans, can easily live in Mexico legally, although I will admit, it's pretty easy for Americans to live in Mexico, however, many Americans, can't qualify to live in Mexico, legally, because their only source of income is social security, and therefore, they live in Mexico, illegally.

I personally, know of many illegal Americans, living in Rosarito, and from these forums, and group Facebook sites, I know a few people that are on social security disability, because of mental issues, some I suspect of faking, and some really insane, but I'm not sure if they are legal or not. ( some have been members of this site, and were banned or passed away)

I used to have a girlfriend in Mexico, who wanted to go to Disneyland in the US, and Disneyland is just over 100 miles from the border, but it would be a lot easily to take her to Disneyland in Europe than in the OC because of all the red tape and time involved.

Gnukid, if you think it's so easy for any Mexican to live in the US, I hope you will join me in telling President Trump, NO WALL, and lets get the undocumented Mexican workers, out of the shadows and into an amnesty programs, because it's so easy to live in the US legally, they no longer have to hide in the shadows.

I will get to you other statement later Gnukid.

gnukid - 2-16-2019 at 03:44 PM

Let's get this Joe logic straight, it's easier to be illegal so therefore we should encourage mass illegality and promote criminal behavior, exploitation of humans, and encourage societal chaos to encourage a two class society. One class with law abiding people and the other totally lawless because lawless criminal behavior is easier and less work than being law abiding? And the law abiding group should live by a strict enforcement of laws and the other group should not be required to follow laws because it is easier. The extra cost of the unlawful group should be made up by the law abiding group because, because Joe!

And even then Joe's girlfriend can't go to Disneyland?

Except, last year my best friend in Mexico, Pancho and his daughter age 14 wanted to go to Disneyland and ComiCon because she wanted to become a filmmaker, so we tried and applied and it was frustrating and took time and preparation but we did it and now she is a filmmaker who went to Disneyland and ComiCon at age of 15 who has made 5 short films and presented at film festivals. But it wasn't easy.

Personally I went through the process from temp to permanent visa holder in Mexico, it took time, and now I have a business and work and I never paid mordida once and I no longer pay for yearly visas or flight taxes and I enjoy many other cost saving and stress reducing benefits.

In USA foreigners apply for visitor and work visas, there are about 800k H1b visa holders working at a given time, 65k allocated per year and they can last for 6 years, some extend with I-140 visas, some leave early, each H1b visa holder's spouse may also apply to work with H-4 visa and most do 800k, about 65k agriculture labor H2a visas per year and last for 3 years=195k, no limit to H2a labor visas per year and last 3 years. About 650k temporary visas are converted to permanent visas per year. No limit to number of L-1a, L-1b visa holders who may transfer back and forth from abroad to USA for US related corporations.

Then there are visitor visas, finance and spouse visas, religious visas, athlete visas, foreign media visas, extra ordinary ability visas, company transfer visas, investor visas etc...

In California in both tech and labor a large portion of workers are foreign workers, often more than 50% and as high as 80% at companies like eBay and Symantec.

The actual total number of tracked foreign workers in the USA is about 25,000,000, plus the undocumented foreign workforce population estimated at 10,000,000, out of a working population of 130,000,000. References below or look it up for yourself.

Point is, there is a legal path to enter both countries to visit or work which resulted in about 20% of the USA population being made up of legal foreign workers and about 10% illegal foreign workers, though my personal estimate is that the % of illegal workers is much higher, like 35 million.

Illegal immigration is promoted by criminals and their networks who exploit and abuse humans to profit off their backs because it's easier than making an honest living. "The money is too good to stop." Illegal immigration is one of the criminal "octopus" legs, associated with drug running, illegal arms trade, money laundering, prostitution, human trafficking, human slavery, kidnapping, extortion, etc.

Ask yourself who supports illegal immigration and open borders, the answer is those who profit, which includes the likes of cartels of Chapo, Sinaloa, Los Zetas, Jalisco, Carrillo Fuentes, Arrelano Felix and the corrupt associated politicians - you know who they are. The result is societal destabilization and profit.

Over 700,000 children go missing in the USA each year and more in Mexico, many are murdered associated with these criminal operations who run on the backs of illegal immigrants.

Who would send illegal high power weapons through the border directly to cartels who use the weapons to control all traffic in the border region, legal or illegal traffic they get paid, every liter of gasoline has cartel tax due, every illegal immigrant has a value of 5K on their head due for crossing, who would block border security, who wants an open border, which politicians take donations from cartels and mafia?

When you see the costs to society and the damage caused by open borders to individuals that manifests in a 2 class broken society, plagued by crime and corruption, resulting in sky high costs for the law abiding people and lawless life of exploitation for the other class all for the profit of mega cartels, corrupt politicians and corporations, you have to ask what role do the promoters of open borders play. Do promoters of open borders carry some responsibility for the chaos and destruction of lives they allow by their actions, even if they just virtue signal pretending to be empathetic to others? If I am pretending to be a good person like those open border types while I am encouraging and allowing an environment that results in abuse and exploitation, do I bear responsibility? An analogy is if a doctor acts well intended but every patient dies through their errors, are they a good doctor? Do they carry responsibility for negative outcomes even though they are well intended? The answer is yes, Joe.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/employme...

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/rising-250980...

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/labor-force-parti...

[Edited on 2-16-2019 by gnukid]

JZ - 2-16-2019 at 09:14 PM

How on Earth do you ppl have the energy to type novels like that? I didn't read a word of it btw.

To the OP, I've flown TJ to Hermosillo before w/o a visa. We were running late for our flight and there was a big line, so we said screw it to avoid missing the flight. I did use my PP to show my identity to get on the plane.

For sure you will be stopped on the bus at inspections points. Will they ask for id or FMM, maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't roll those dice.

[Edited on 2-17-2019 by JZ]

David K - 2-16-2019 at 11:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

Quote: Originally posted by David K

I am leaving for Baja soon and will report on how the FMM procedure is for me today, when I get back online.

You are going to love this...
The Mexican arranger for the film group I am with, said no FMM was needed because we were staying in Baja Norte, and only if going to Baja Sure required it. I told her the newest rules (as told to us) and she questioned them, said "when was that"?, said basically that was not true. We waited for a long time for her to get the official clearance inside, for our 3 vehicles and 11 people, with equipment, and we left for the hotel. No FMMs ... When I drive south, I will still get one!

caj13 - 2-17-2019 at 08:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid

Great news for the people in the Caravans! I thought even though they were law abiding individuals sanctuary in the USA - legal process i believe. So they would be flabergasted to hear how easy it is, They have been trying for months to get a simple interview with an agent. so you would do all of them a big favor Gnukid head down there, explain to them how easy it is, and as a public service, escort dozens of them every day across the border!

JoeJustJoe - 2-17-2019 at 09:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

So let me get this straight, the Mexican arranger said no FMM was needed because they were only going to be in Baja Norte, and you David K. said, not that's wrong, you need a FMM anytime you walking one foot into Mexico.

And because of you, the arranger, checked, and was told they were correct no FMM need to stay in Baja Norte?

I believe it, but I would also think they asked how long are they going to stay in Baja Norte, and if they said longer than 7 days, they would have made everybody get a FMM to collect the money.

But like I been saying for months, they really don't want to waste their time with vehicles stopping in only Baja Norte, for a day trip or a few days. It would only create traffic jams, and long waits.

But as you say, you are still technically right that you need that FMM, but it's not being enforced, and nobody cares in Baja Norte, if you have a FMM or not.

This is why when I go to only Tijuana or Rosarito, I do not get any FMM driving, and about 60% of the time, they don't require me to have a FMM when I cross as a pedestrian.

Here is what I think, remember there was a Mexico free zone? Well, it turns out there was never a Mexico free zone, but it seems many Mexican officials are still treating it like a free zone.

Bubba - 2-17-2019 at 10:24 AM

And one more post turning into a chit show when all was needed was a simple explanation. smh

bajabuddha - 2-17-2019 at 01:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Do we have a new troll here?

"Mazatclan"????

.... maybe he's part of the Mazat - Clan...

JoeJustJoe - 2-17-2019 at 01:32 PM

Gnukid, I see even others find your easy access to America, laughable.

It's not easy to become an immigration to the US, because it's like pimping, if it was that easy, everybody would be pimping, and also immigrating to the US.

I also believe it's no cake walk to become a legal citizen of Mexico, because there are many hoops, and some people just don't qualify because of the income requirements, but it is sure easier to live in Mexico, illegal than it is in the US.

The US immigration programs that you talk about like the H1B visa and H2B visa, are wonderful programs, but there is a catch. You as an immigrant must have a job lined up in the US. That's not so easy to get if you don't know anybody in the US, and you don't know how to get sponsored.

Sure I guess, I could have helped my girlfriend, get a fiance visa, so I could take her to Disneyland in the OC, but she really didn't want to move here, or did she really wanted to marry me, and the same with me.

It's not so much that I'm advocating breaking US or Mexico, immigration laws, as it is I'm pretty much an open borders person, and believe anyone should be able to live where they want but I will leave the details up to others how that would work out.

I'm pragmatic and know people are going to do what they need to do. If there are good paying jobs in America, and if it's real easy to get those jobs, the immigrants are going to come here and work if I or you like it or not. There will also be illegal Americans living in Mexico, without papers. I really don't care, it's not my problem.

Gnukid, I do think a lot of Baja Nomad, members are anti immigration, and even anti-Mexico, where many take delight in negative news about Mexico, and there is a lot of American exceptionalism type thinking here. The negative stereotyping of Mexicans, here is beyond the pale, even with their positive remarks about Mexicans. I'm sorry, one size doesn't fit all.

Gnukid, your alarmists type posts, and conspiracy theories do not work around me. I'm the type to actually look up where you're getting your information from, and will call BS when I see you're getting your information from dubious sites.

For example the claim that 700,000 children go missing in the USA each year, is mostly BS, where you look at the real numbers. That statistic was from 1992, and it hasn't been updated since. Most of the missing children, are teen runaways, and family abductions, where one parent, takes the child, but in most cases the children are found, or the teen come home, especially with cell phones being so popular now. I think it was something like 115 children that actually went missing from real kidnappings from complete strangers.

Gnukid, most human smugglers are not cartel members, but they are US citizens, Mexican-Americans, who are not doing the work for the Mexican cartels as they are doing the work for employers like Trump, and his golf courses. Human trafficking, is also not so much about sex slavery as it is finding cheap housekeepers and nannies for their children in the suburbs.

But according to Trump, young girls, are brought to American, bound by duct tape on their wrists, and mouths, and that's why they don't go through the ports of entry..........real funny guy that Trump.

[Edited on 2-17-2019 by JoeJustJoe]

Bubba - 2-17-2019 at 03:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

Gnukid, I see even others find your easy access to America, laughable.

It's not easy to become an immigration to the US, because it's like pimping, if it was that easy, everybody would be pimping, and also immigrating to the US.

I also believe it's no cake walk to become a legal citizen of Mexico, because there are many hoops, and some people just don't qualify because of the income requirements, but it is sure easier to live in Mexico, illegal than it is in the US.

The US immigration programs that you talk about like the H1B visa and H2B visa, are wonderful programs, but there is a catch. You as an immigrant must have a job lined up in the US. That's not so easy to get if you don't know anybody in the US, and you don't know how to get sponsored.

Sure I guess, I could have helped my girlfriend, get a fiance visa, so I could take her to Disneyland in the OC, but she really didn't want to move here, or did she really wanted to marry me, and the same with me.

It's not so much that I'm advocating breaking US or Mexico, immigration laws, as it is I'm pretty much an open borders person, and believe anyone should be able to live where they want but I will leave the details up to others how that would work out.

I'm pragmatic and know people are going to do what they need to do. If there are good paying jobs in America, and if it's real easy to get those jobs, the immigrants are going to come here and work if I or you like it or not. There will also be illegal Americans living in Mexico, without papers. I really don't care, it's not my problem.

Gnukid, I do think a lot of Baja Nomad, members are anti immigration, and even anti-Mexico, where many take delight in negative news about Mexico, and there is a lot of American exceptionalism type thinking here. The negative stereotyping of Mexicans, here is beyond the pale, even with their positive remarks about Mexicans. I'm sorry, one size doesn't fit all.

Gnukid, your alarmists type posts, and conspiracy theories do not work around me. I'm the type to actually look up where you're getting your information from, and will call BS when I see you're getting your information from dubious sites.

For example the claim that 700,000 children go missing in the USA each year, is mostly BS, where you look at the real numbers. That statistic was from 1992, and it hasn't been updated since. Most of the missing children, are teen runaways, and family abductions, where one parent, takes the child, but in most cases the children are found, or the teen come home, especially with cell phones being so popular now. I think it was something like 115 children that actually went missing from real kidnappings from complete strangers.

Gnukid, most human smugglers are not cartel members, but they are US citizens, Mexican-Americans, who are not doing the work for the Mexican cartels as they are doing the work for employers like Trump, and his golf courses. Human trafficking, is also not so much about sex slavery as it is finding cheap housekeepers and nannies for their children in the suburbs.

But according to Trump, young girls, are brought to American, bound by duct tape on their wrists, and mouths, and that's why they don't go through the ports of entry..........real funny guy that Trump.

[Edited on 2-17-2019 by JoeJustJoe]

Jeezus, you really are over the edge. How do you find time to write these responses that read like a cheap paper book

gnukid - 2-19-2019 at 05:49 AM

Here is an article in Rolling Stone that explains how cartels control all illegal and legal traffic, by controlling the border region and get paid for every illegal alien, every liter of gas, and every bag of drugs.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/drug-w...

Cartels don't work the way one might imagine, that is with a guy handing a bag of money in exchange for a bag of drugs. Now they morphed into a quasi military political organization who "tax" all traffic or "plaza" in a region, just like feudal royalty of centuries past who charged a tax on the opium or any shipping trade. They control with threats of intimidation and carried out violence, they bribe politicians with "donations" in order to receive access or benefits to enforce their control.

In the end, anyone involved in nefarious illegal behavior pays, and good people pay a tax through increased costs as well.

Corruption is the glue that holds it together to create a profitable margin on all transactions, traffic, access, and security.

A well run cartel may never actually touch drugs, or coyotes, or directly have contact with the consumer and victim. They get paid by extortion for every transaction.

This is why gangs need corruption, and politicians too, they both need illegal aliens, drug trafficking, they need an open border to get paid, but they don't get their hands dirty, they let the fringe criminals or expendables do the dirty work and suffer the consequences. The ones you see are expendable, el Chapo is expendable.

Do you ever see a corrupt cartel member or politician get put on ice in public and paraded as a criminal, they are fat, out of shape, pasty white, because they don't actually do work, they simply reap profits on the backs of others.

Do you support corrupt cartel tax on all border traffic or do you support productive honest people and efficiency at low cost? Then don't support illegal human trafficking across the border.

Nowadays, especially with mass surveillance, the cartels, their victims, those who pay, they don't touch, it's simply a numbers game. An example is small crime in pueblos, you get robbed of $500 in household tools or a $5000 car, you call the police, the police go to the bad guys for their cut, they also ask for money from the victim for "gas". Then they get taxed by the controlling cartel for % of all crime in the region. The empeneos (pawn shops) pay a cut. etc. It's all connected. The money is dropped off in a bag as a pay off, and picked up by the cartel bag man (courier) a few times a day/week/month. Once you are anywhere near it you can't get out.

The caravan and the stories about immigrants who choose to cross with coyotes is a lie to garner emotional support to allow the process of the cartel control of the plaza. Yes there are illegal immigrants, there are coyotes, but it not as you would perceive. People are trafficked. They are threatened or enticed to go and they suffer all along and are exploited ultimately with a price tag on their head.

On the other hand, there is a form of legal immigration to both Mexico and USA that fuels our true productive economy, companies like eBay use a workforce of 80% foreign labor. There is a lack of willing qualified workers in markets in both regions.

Illegal immigration is a tool of destabilization to allow control of the plaza.

For example, the Caravan immigrants were all offered a working visa in Mexico, Residente Temporal Lucrativa, they were offered housing and opportunities to work and almost everyone turned it down. They turned it down because they were told to turn it down because they had a different role. A few are happily living in TJ and working. Why didn't they all accept the visa?

The Caravan was an orchestrated play whose role was to destabilize and confuse the border issue. In a sense it was a tactical move in a war, and it served its purpose, they came, got paid and left, not unlike Antifa activists in the USA. It's political action with roots in the cartel control of the Plaza. Every time you buy gas at any gas station in USA or Mexico you are paying the cartel a tax now due to their control of gas in North America.

The lady doth protest too much, Joe that is. He is playing a role, like Joe the plumber, he is a hybrid political activist for destabilization, likely paid.

Los Zetas are a prime example of the hybrid mil/gov/cartel operation. They were highly trained military paid for by Merida Initiative dollars, who somehow, by surprise, by became the one of the most violent and corrupt cartels? Somehow by accident they were shipped high power weapons under Eric Holder and Obama and "we lost track by accident"?

As "Freeway Rick Ross" the most notorious crack dealer said about the Iran Contra weapons for drugs hearings, "crack cocaine don't arrive from across the border to LA in the back of Jose's van." Meaning, it takes planes, trains and shipping containers to deliver the amount of contraband being transported daily and its not going unnoticed, contaband is tracked, delivered and taxed, leaving victims in its path.

Most of us are good people, thankfully, most of don't even know bad people. But there is an underbelly of criminal lies and corruption that fuels "the octopus" to profit on every criminal action that crosses over to the "good people" as a tax or cost of doing business. Stop feeding the octopus.

[Edited on 2-19-2019 by gnukid]

JoeJustJoe - 2-19-2019 at 07:06 AM

Gnukid, have you ever heard of the quote sometimes attributed to Freud, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar?'

I'm sure the Mexican cartels are involved in a lot crimes in Mexico, especially the drugs and other vices, but I doubt if even the cartels have a monopoly on every type of crime in Mexico especially since human trafficking and other criminals enterprises have low start up expenses.

It's really sad that you seem to imply that every hard working undocumented Mexican workers, is a criminal or victim of the Mexican cartels or shadow type government like the deep state.

In another post you said, over 700,000 children go missing each year, but if you take a closer look, it''s not the Mexican cartels kidnapping young girls to be sex slaves in America, but rather it's mostly teen runaways or benign missing children who show up a few hours later. Just 115 kids were actually kidnapped by strangers.
............

The number of kids who are actually kidnapped by strangers is quite small," says Finkelhor.

Just 115 of the 797,500 children were subject to what Finkelhor and his co-authors define as a "stereotypical" kidnapping - that is, they were abducted by a stranger and detained overnight, perhaps permanently, or taken at least 50 miles away.

In fact, almost half the children recorded in the study were what the authors call "benign missing". That means their parent or guardian thought they were missing, but they soon turned up.

So many of the children reported missing weren't really missing at all.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32386685

[Edited on 2-19-2019 by JoeJustJoe]

paranewbi - 2-19-2019 at 07:55 AM

Just arrived back home from a visit with JJJ on another thread. It's really not that bad of a drive.
Just enter 'Reality' in the destination box in the googlemaps app and you'll get there just fine.

Alm - 2-21-2019 at 11:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Do we have a new troll here?

"Mazatclan"????

Did anybody mention 'Clan?

...
Though, tend to agree with Motoged - a bit strange post by the OP.