BajaNomad - religon and effects on indians of baja

religon and effects on indians of baja

joerover - 3-7-2019 at 09:18 PM

Kpbs San Diego has a show about the early religous padres and how it effected the indians of baja,

9pm tonight

At least I think that is what I heard as I was washing my chompa.

StuckSucks - 3-8-2019 at 12:34 PM

Does this answer the question? I saw this as a display in the Museo de las Misiones in Loreto:

David K - 3-8-2019 at 12:45 PM

While it is easy to blame an easy target like dead missionaries, the diseases were introduced before missions by bootleg peal fishermen, pirates, and renegade soldiers. Cruelty to natives occurred primarily after the Jesuits were removed and civil authority from Spain replaced the religious Order. No excuse for what happened but exploring always brought death such as Marco Polo and the plague in Europe.

There are plenty of letters written that show how furious missionaries were at soldiers and government at native treatment.

[Edited on 3-8-2019 by David K]

The Catholic Culling

MrBillM - 3-8-2019 at 12:54 PM

All part of God's plan ?

John Harper - 3-8-2019 at 01:05 PM

We did a pretty good job here in the USA wiping out the indigenous people as well. It's not just religion involved. I believe there was a bounty on native people in California after we became a state.

https://www.history.com/news/californias-little-known-genoci...

John

[Edited on 3-8-2019 by John Harper]

joerover - 3-8-2019 at 03:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

There are plenty of letters written that show how furious missionaries were at soldiers and government at native treatment.

[Edited on 3-8-2019 by David K]

Still going on all over the world, mistreatment of natives by ... ..

Missionaries were part of the Spanish military industerial complex.

John Harper - 3-8-2019 at 03:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by joerover

Still going on all over the world, mistreatment of natives by ... ..Missionaries

Not on North Sentinel Island. The natives won.

John

joerover - 3-8-2019 at 03:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

We did a pretty good job here in the USA wiping out the indigenous people as well. It's not just religion involved. I believe there was a bounty on native people in California after we became a state.

https://www.history.com/news/californias-little-known-genoci...

John

[Edited on 3-8-2019 by John Harper]

The Indians on the Washington coast went from over 100,000 to a little over 600. I forget the name of the colonel who introduced diease into the area.

joerover - 3-8-2019 at 03:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

Quote: Originally posted by joerover

Still going on all over the world, mistreatment of natives by ... ..Missionaries

Not on North Sentinel Island. The natives won.

John

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sentinel_Island

Nothing to steal from them,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg6pL4Rh1PY

mtgoat666 - 3-8-2019 at 06:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by StuckSucks

Does this answer the question? I saw this as a display in the Museo de las Misiones in Loreto:

Genocidal numbers.
Reparations are owed, me thinks.

pacificobob - 3-8-2019 at 06:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by StuckSucks

Does this answer the question? I saw this as a display in the Museo de las Misiones in Loreto:

that says everything about religion one needs to know.

David K - 3-8-2019 at 09:06 PM

Religion wasn't the cause, the arrival of outsiders and later the conquest of California by a foreign power introduced diseases from which the Californians had little resistance to. Happened all over not just on the peninsula.
I am not religious but I am interested in accuracy over drama.

joerover - 3-8-2019 at 09:34 PM

All over

The Black Death, also known as the Great Plague, the Black Plague, or the Plague, was one of the most devastating pandemics in human history, resulting in the deaths of an estimated 75 to 200 million people in Eurasia and peaking in Europe from 1347 to 1351.[1][2][3] The bacterium Yersinia pestis, which results in several forms of plague, is believed to have been the cause.[4] The Black Death was the first major European outbreak of plague, and the second plague pandemic.[5] The plague created a series of religious, social and economic upheavals, which had profound effects on the course of European history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

Plague as a Weapon of War
As a highly contagious disease with an extremely high mortality rate if left untreated, Yersinia pestis has been used as a weapon of biological warfare for centuries. Some warfare strategies have included catapulting corpses over city walls, dropping infected fleas from airplanes, and aerosolizing the bacteria during the Cold War (Stenseth, 2008). More recently, plague raised concern as an important national security threat because of its potential for use by terrorists.

https://www.cdc.gov/plague/history/index.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32YQYJuxyn0

joerover - 3-8-2019 at 09:39 PM

Around 70,000 years ago, humanity's global population dropped down to only a few thousand individuals, and it had major effects on our species.

https://www.businessinsider.com/genetic-bottleneck-almost-ki...

joerover - 3-8-2019 at 09:43 PM

diseases kill every flavor of people.

indigenous people are abused more than others for some reason. What about Angie, the girl from Isla Cedros, her dna most closely matches that of the people who lived there 14,000 years ago. She can not hit hard enough to kill a fly, everyone wants to beat her, and use her for something.

BajaTed - 3-8-2019 at 10:01 PM

After working with Cherokee folk in Oklahoma, I became a supporter of the first nation TV channel (FNX) which is on most PBS networks. They have lots of TV show series that gives a first nation cultural perspective to history than what is institutionalized as the western civilized history perspective.
The taking of their ancestral lands was worse than any religion or disease, end of any story no matter how accurate to justify otherwise.
Big time supreme court case about Indian land in OK. is happening now. It will be a long battle, Osiyo

Win Some - Lose Some

MrBillM - 3-9-2019 at 08:34 AM

Those SPANISH dudes "may" have shared some responsibility in the reduced aborigine population, BUT (on the upside) they brought the one-true religion and redemption to the pagans allowing them the promise of Heaven !

Death bringing eternal LIFE.

RIGHT ?

AND, as a bonus, Casino riches. At least in the U.S.

BTW, the Black Death had come and Long Gone when Columbus " ..... sailed the ocean blue in 1492 ..... "

And, it's not likely that there was anybody tossing diseased corpses about as a weapon. Whatever disease transfer that occurred between the Euro immigrants and the aborigines was not part of any plan. The understanding of Viruses and Bacteria was a long ways off.

Bad luck all around.

Overall, though, there's NO denying that the inevitable European arrival heralded the beginning of an ongoing centuries-long period of enlightenment and progress for which we should ALL be thankful for today.

Including the Casino beneficiaries.

pacificobob - 3-9-2019 at 08:51 AM

right. missionaries have been blameless in damage to indigenous societies throughout history. don't kid your self about gods middlemen.
there is a museum in Lima Peru containing hundreds of thousands of skulls of those who proved too difficult to convert and thus were euthanized to prevent them from continued sinning.

JoeJustJoe - 3-9-2019 at 09:08 AM

David K has a unique historical perspective from something like a Judeo-Christian, viewpoint, who sees the Jesuits, of doing God's work.

We of course know for the last 30 years or more, and from the Indian-Latin America, view point, that the Jesuits order, was doing the work of Satan, and were in bed with the Spanish, who decimated the native population with diseases, kept them in barbarous condition, and tried to take away their beliefs, by trying Christianizing them of their so-called savage ways.

I'm not sure if anybody can find out what really happened by listening or reading historians, because it's all about perspective and the lens you are looking through. The best you can do is read about an event through a wide variety of sources.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

While it is easy to blame an easy target like dead missionaries, the diseases were introduced before missions by bootleg peal fishermen, pirates, and renegade soldiers. Cruelty to natives occurred primarily after the Jesuits were removed and civil authority from Spain replaced the religious Order. No excuse for what happened but exploring always brought death such as Marco Polo and the plague in Europe.

There are plenty of letters written that show how furious missionaries were at soldiers and government at native treatment.

[Edited on 3-8-2019 by David K]

fishbuck - 3-9-2019 at 09:18 AM

That sounds about right.
In a way celebrating the missions is like praising N-zis.

mtgoat666 - 3-9-2019 at 09:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe

David K has a unique historical perspective from something like a Judeo-Christian, viewpoint, who sees the Jesuits, of doing God's work.

We of course know for the last 30 years or more, and from the Indian-Latin America, view point, that the Jesuits order, was doing the work of Satan, and were in bed with the Spanish, who decimated the native population with diseases, kept them in barbarous condition, and tried to take away their beliefs, by trying Christianizing them of their so-called savage ways.

I'm not sure if anybody can find out what really happened by listening or reading historians, because it's all about perspective and the lens you are looking through. The best you can do is read about an event through a wide variety of sources.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Don’t forget governments acting bad too. During my lifetime both the USA and Canadian governments forcibly removed Indian children from their parents to place them in “foster” care to learn white man ways.
Our current president weekly uses ethnic slur “pocohantas” to refer to Indians.

Bubba - 3-9-2019 at 09:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper

Quote: Originally posted by joerover

Still going on all over the world, mistreatment of natives by ... ..Missionaries

Not on North Sentinel Island. The natives won.

John

No doubt, those boys kick some serious booty. lmao.

TMW - 3-9-2019 at 09:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

POTUS uses the ethnic slur you cite against one senator and she is a
want-a-be Indian.

[Edited on 3-9-2019 by TMW]

Fatboy - 3-9-2019 at 10:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K

While I believe David's point does have some validity, it is tossed away by most due to their feelings towards him.

An obvious sign of a lack of open-mindedness by some posters on here.

We will never know what happened exactly and who started the diseases but I would venture that it was by several groups over decades to different population groups.

The missionaries surely started some of the epidemics. Diseases was only one aspect of the many problems the natives encountered with the new invaders.

As to the statement of missionaries being furious to others for their treatment of natives is very misleading.

Overall they could not be considered as benevolent, my impression is that they considered the natives as "theirs" to punish and treat poorly as they saw fit.

They could drive them as slaves to build their missions and roads as long as it was for the greater 'god'.

We really want a simply answer to a very complex problem.

David K - 3-9-2019 at 11:15 AM

Because I want as accurate as possible information in my books and articles, I have amassed quite a collection of books and letters written by the padres themselves. Coupled with over 50 years of traveling to the missions to get a feel for the locations they were established in, I do connect a bit to them.

There were three primary Orders of the Catholic Church who established missions, with the permission or support of the government of Spain.

There were never more than a handful of Jesuits on the peninsula at any one time. When they were removed, there were a total of 16. That is all.

Blame the soldiers, illegal pearl hunters, pirates, as well... but to only blame, a few priests who wanted to build communities and show success in California is a bit non-factual.

Now, the Jesuits have a special deal for their 72 years... but after they were removed, the Spanish civil government took over and told the Franciscans and Dominicans who followed what to do with the Indians... and that is when they became used as tools (for the state).

JoeJustJoe - 3-9-2019 at 11:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Fatboy

I believe David K. is an expert on the subject at least in regards to the missions, and probably knows more about the subject that all of us combined.

It's when he engages in far right-wing politics often, it makes some of us wonder of David K's true perspective and lens he is really looking through.

My advise to him if he wants to present himself as an expert or knowledgeable about the Spanish missions, and early history of that period, that he keeps away from current politics, the wall, and especially Trumpian politics. ( I know it's fun to talk about)

Because if he does talk about current politics he is probably going to leave half the group, or the liberal half of the group wondering if David K, is like one of those Texan historians that white washes slavery from the history books of some Texas classrooms.

[Edited on 3-9-2019 by JoeJustJoe]

fishbuck - 3-9-2019 at 11:58 AM

Again, we are studying N-zi concentration camps (the missions) and all the murdering guards just saying they were following orders.
You know they we all just good germans...
The story is exactily they same in Baja and with Spain.
While the story may be important to remember,
it should not be glorified in anyway.
And maybe those missions should just melt back into the land and be forgotten.
Remember and honor the indiginous people who were there.
I am very glad the Spainish effort failed.
Spain and most of Europe is an indebted socialist sh!thole.
So except for the part where they are whiped out, the natives sent the Spanish packing.
And they are still gone today Both Spainish and 1st people are gone.

[Edited on 3-9-2019 by fishbuck]

dtbushpilot - 3-9-2019 at 12:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck

Again, we are studying N-zi concentration camps (the missions) and all the murdering guards just saying they were following orders.
You know they we all just good germans...
The story is exactily they same in Baja and with Spain.
While the story may be important to remember,
it should not be glorified in anyway.
And maybe those missions should just melt back into the land and be forgotten.
Remember and honor the indiginous people who were there.
I am very glad the Spainish effort failed.
Spain and most of Europe is an indebted socialist sh!thole.
So except for the part where they are whiped out, the natives sent the Spanish packing.
And they are still gone today Both Spainish and 1st people are gone.

The Spanish are gone from Baja?......remarkable observation fish...

[Edited on 3-9-2019 by fishbuck]

JoeJustJoe - 3-9-2019 at 01:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by dtbushpilot

That's exactly what he has done on this topic jjj, why do you feel the need to kick sand in DK's direction?

I can't win around here, Dtbushpilot, agrees with me over what I said about David K, and then Dtbushpilot, kicks face in JoeJustJoe's face. Ouch!

Mr Pilot, I'm just giving David K. a little friendly advise, but I'm sure he won't take it......which is his right.

It's just because of David K.'s political views, I will tend to take what he says with a grain of salt.

I'm going to admit I don't know everything, but I have been to a few Missions, and at times this subject comes to my attention, for example when the Catholic Church, was in discussions about the controversial figure, Junípero Serra's road to sainthood.

I read a lot about it, and came to the conclusion that he was a masochist and sadistic freak, who not only allowed the abuse of the Indian natives, but he even abused himself with his self-flagellations, when he felt he had sinful thoughts!

I could only imagine what he did to the native Indians, who didn't want to convert.

I'm personally disgusted that the Catholic Church, wanted to canonize Junípero Serra, but not surprise knowing the abuse the Catholic Church, allows today.

David K, and others who write about the history of Spanish missions, I feel needs to do a better job of acknowledging the abuse that happened when the Spanish came to America, and it does include the Franciscans order.

Ok !

MrBillM - 3-9-2019 at 06:08 PM

Laying Blame where it belongs.

Cam we agree ?

The victims are DEAD.

The perpetrators are DEAD.

EVERYBODY involved is DEAD.

Let's feel BAD for the victims and MAD at the Monks, Soldiers and ................ Whoever. While congratulating ourselves on our sensitivity.

That's LIFE.

So to speak.

fishbuck - 3-9-2019 at 09:16 PM

Peace Brother and Sister Baja Nomads.
I love my brother DK because he is an world class historian.
And thank him for educating me so well.

And I do marvel at the missions and the story.

Crowded Countries

MrBillM - 3-10-2019 at 06:11 PM

Those Latin American countries are ALL still pretty crowded, crime and poverty-stricken, aren't they ?

Given that the number of aboriginal peoples terminally-affected by whatever policies was (relative to the domestic over-population) small, the impact could be considered negligible in the greater scheme.

To other than those terminally-affected, of course.

And, from an economic standpoint, the overall effect (while slight) would generally be positive since those unfortunates subjected to the "adios" would be of minimal positive (or even negative) benefit to the nation's health.

Which is not to say that ANY genocidal activities aren't morally reprehensible and ................ etc, etc. Most of us (with the exception of some Trumpsters maybe) would not participate in or condone such activities.

Still, it's not worth getting your knickers all in a bunch over if you weren't involved and have no control over the past situations.

Have a Beer and move on.