BajaNomad

79000 missing in Mexico

PaulW - 12-12-2020 at 02:26 PM

People Disappeared
Be glad not to visit the area where all the killings have occured
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/mexico-lo...

John Harper - 12-12-2020 at 02:59 PM

Tragic. But, at least it's not the ONE MILLION a year that GnumbNuts keeps peddling about child trafficking.

John

gnukid - 12-12-2020 at 03:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
Tragic. But, at least it's not the ONE MILLION a year that GnumbNuts keeps peddling about child trafficking.

John


The official USA number is more than 800,000 children go missing per year, this does not include women and men nor people trafficked from other countries into USA through Mexico.

USA has a much higher population than Mexico, but its border is used for global trafficking, each of us pay the costs while victims suffer and few escape.

It's sad but predictably consistent that John enjoys ridiculing missing children and trafficked adults.

There is also a large number of children trafficked from Mexico into USA, plus populations from many other countries that are not counted in either the missing US or Mexican Children because they are not in the system.

The actual numbers of missing children and trafficked humans in USA and Mexico are therefore much higher than the number reported.


[Edited on 12-12-2020 by gnukid]

John Harper - 12-12-2020 at 03:24 PM

I'm not minimizing the sad crime of trafficking. Nor missing children. Where I have I ever said that? Nowhere.

I cannot find any evidence to back up your numbers. None.

And, I will do my own research, I've seen your bogus URLs. Not the least bit credible.

"The actual numbers of missing children and trafficked humans in USA and Mexico are therefore much higher than the number reported."

And your evidence for this statement is from what source? Or, just your opinion?

Maybe beamed to you from deep within the Quniverse?

John


[Edited on 12-12-2020 by John Harper]

gnukid - 12-12-2020 at 04:01 PM

John, you keep mixing up the data, that is one problem, take it one at a time, write it down, for example, how many people cross the Mexico USA border per year, that is a known number, then take the number of illegal transients caught, that is a known number, consider the number of reported trafficked humans across the border who are Mexican, consider the number of total trafficked humans, then add the known number to a quotient of unknown say 2x, the total number trafficked across the border includes those who come with falsified parents, alone, coyotes, detected and undetected.

Honestly, this is not some personal issue between John and I, it's simply something to be aware of, with knowledge the number is not known, though certainly much higher than reported, many interests have motivations to suggest it is not an issue, while in fact, it is a significant problem that is well reported with data sources.

I come to this issue as someone with open eyes, though lack personal experience, simply paying attention could help save someones life.

caj13 - 12-12-2020 at 08:38 PM

Gnuey, were really math illiterate - how about you do the math right here, and reference where each of those numbers come from!

Just take your previous explanation, add the numbers and where those numbers came from. do us all a favor - please?

[Edited on 12-13-2020 by caj13]

John Harper - 12-13-2020 at 05:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
I come to this issue as someone with open eyes, though lack personal experience, simply paying attention could help save someones life.


I have taught high school for almost 20 years. I have yet to lose one of my students due to kidnapping or trafficking, a couple due to suicide, unfortunately. I am designated a "mandated reporter" by the state of CA for suspected child abuse, trafficking, and suicide prevention. I get training every single year and receive a certificate of completed training. By law, I am obligated to "pay attention."

My personal experience tells me your numbers are wildly inflated. Please see my post in another thread where I demonstrate that using your numbers, my high school of 3000 would lose almost 40 kids a year, which is just not reality. Not even close. With 160-170 school days per year, that would be one child a week lost from my school? Cops would be on campus 24/7 under those conditions following up on weekly abductions. I can tell you for sure that is not the case.

Here's a little information on one of the training programs I have to complete each year:
https://www.cde.ca.gov/nr/el/le/yr18ltr0328.asp

I know this issue is important to you, but you're actually quite late to the party. I've been receiving annual training on this issue for the last three years since AB 1342 was passed.

John


[Edited on 12-14-2020 by John Harper]

On the BRIGHT Side .....................

MrBillM - 12-13-2020 at 09:04 PM

Kids that are missing aren't around to be a bother.

AND, should they stay missing, it will result in more adults not around to be a bother.

del mar - 12-13-2020 at 09:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MrBillM  
Kids that are missing aren't around to be a bother.

AND, should they stay missing, it will result in more adults not around to be a bother.


a few sunday night Stella's Bill?

Maintaining Perspective

MrBillM - 12-14-2020 at 11:08 AM

One of my more common Kinder comments dating back (at least) 40 years:

"Kids have their place, but that place is somewhere else."

Not that I object (mostly, anyway) to well-behaved minors, BUT how many of them are around ?

Skipjack Joe - 12-14-2020 at 11:22 AM

Reminds me of my dad's favorite quip about me when people would ask him how is your son. "He's at his best when he's asleep".

gnukid - 12-14-2020 at 09:45 PM

Here are just a few examples to give a perspective of human trafficking

https://www.unodc.org/pdf/HT_indicators_E_LOWRES.pdf

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/human-traff...

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/worst-cou...

https://fishgame.com/2020/10/human-trafficking-uncovered-nea...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/traffic-stop-leads-to-huma...

https://www.breitbart.com/border/2020/08/29/12-human-smuggli...

https://www.crimeonline.com/2020/09/05/missing-girl-found-hi...

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/u-s-world/doctors-and-cops-among-...

https://patch.com/california/campbell/human-trafficking-ring...

https://www.ktvu.com/news/16-arrested-5-rescued-in-south-bay...

https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/article/Police-Arrest-Fo...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/gilroy-couple-arrested-...

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/05/30/san-jose-sex-tr...

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/4-arrested-for-owning-op...



[Edited on 12-15-2020 by gnukid]

pacificobob - 12-15-2020 at 01:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
Here are just a few examples to give a perspective of human trafficking

https://www.unodc.org/pdf/HT_indicators_E_LOWRES.pdf

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/human-traff...

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/worst-cou...

https://fishgame.com/2020/10/human-trafficking-uncovered-nea...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/traffic-stop-leads-to-huma...

https://www.breitbart.com/border/2020/08/29/12-human-smuggli...

https://www.crimeonline.com/2020/09/05/missing-girl-found-hi...

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/u-s-world/doctors-and-cops-among-...

https://patch.com/california/campbell/human-trafficking-ring...

https://www.ktvu.com/news/16-arrested-5-rescued-in-south-bay...

https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/article/Police-Arrest-Fo...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/gilroy-couple-arrested-...

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/05/30/san-jose-sex-tr...

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/4-arrested-for-owning-op...



[Edited on 12-15-2020 by gnukid]


such a plethora of references. you are clearly convinced of your opinions accuracy.
why the great need to pitch these theories? heck, you could just confidently sit back and enjoy being "right".... and spare us the rants.

caj13 - 12-15-2020 at 05:02 PM

Gnuey, when are you going to do the mth for us. once and for all , show us how you get to 79000.

Once you do that, I'll do you the normal "courtesy" of actually vetting your "sources". I will (unlike you) actually click on the links, read AND UNDERSTAND them, and point out where you are right and wrong in your suppositions. fair deal right? first lets see your math, and them we shall dig into your "sources of information" and what those actually say!

gnukid - 12-15-2020 at 05:25 PM

Numbers are less important than the issue in general, USA/Mexico border is among the worst human trafficking border in the world and its worse now than ever before.

It's not wealthy people on the internet who are trafficked, the victims don't have internet, nor cell phones, nor access to freedom.

I am no expert, though, I did spend time on a human trafficking hotline as an admin and the few calls I heard were quite frightening, people are extremely afraid to escape, the ramifications are serious for themas well as family. I do pay attention in the area where I am at, in Baja we are cautious, especially in regard to children.

Maintain vigilance!

mtgoat666 - 12-15-2020 at 05:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13  
Gnuey, when are you going to do the mth for us. once and for all , show us how you get to 79000.

Once you do that, I'll do you the normal "courtesy" of actually vetting your "sources". I will (unlike you) actually click on the links, read AND UNDERSTAND them, and point out where you are right and wrong in your suppositions. fair deal right? first lets see your math, and them we shall dig into your "sources of information" and what those actually say!


Paul is delusional, a victim of brainwashing by right wing media and trumpista misinformation campaigns. Don’t bother debating him, his mind is lost forever.

bajatrailrider - 12-15-2020 at 05:30 PM

yes mt compared to you Paul is a rocket scientist. Make America decent throw out spam . Yes that means you
.

gnukid - 12-15-2020 at 06:37 PM

To shed light, here's a story today about a prominent business person, Peter Nygard, just arrested for sex trafficking. The article discusses the methods he used to control victims through, threats, intimidation, surveillance, restriction of movement, isolation, etc.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/fashion-retailer-peter-n...

caj13 - 12-16-2020 at 06:23 PM

actually gnuey, the numbers are very important,for a number of reasons,
including supporting your claims.
No numbers, and you are just making crap up!

So once again - take the explanation you gave john, put numbers and references to it. That way - see you would have legitimacy and credibility. If not, your just a bat guano crazy clown flatulating BS from your brain into the wind.


Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
Numbers are less important than the issue in general, USA/Mexico border is among the worst human trafficking border in the world and its worse now than ever before.

It's not wealthy people on the internet who are trafficked, the victims don't have internet, nor cell phones, nor access to freedom.

I am no expert, though, I did spend time on a human trafficking hotline as an admin and the few calls I heard were quite frightening, people are extremely afraid to escape, the ramifications are serious for themas well as family. I do pay attention in the area where I am at, in Baja we are cautious, especially in regard to children.

Maintain vigilance!

apple - 12-17-2020 at 11:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  

The official USA number is more than 800,000 children go missing per year


No, it's not. There are about 75 million people under the age of 18 in the US, and if more than 800k of them went missing every year, that would be ~1 of every 90 American children. It just isn't happening.

And these numbers that you cite don't reflect the reality that the vast majority of children that reported each year as "missing" are with a one parent or the other as a part of a custody dispute, and promptly found. Abductions of children by strangers are EXCEEDINGLY rare.

[Edited on 12-17-2020 by apple]

John Harper - 12-17-2020 at 01:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by apple  

No, it's not. There are about 75 million people under the age of 18 in the US, and if more than 800k of them went missing every year, that would be ~1 of every 90 American children. It just isn't happening.


Exactly. There would be at least 35 kids disappear from my high school each year if those numbers were accurate.

John

John Harper - 12-17-2020 at 07:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  
Exactly. There would be at least 35 kids disappear from my high school each year if those numbers were accurate.
John
I'm not doubting you, but I bet school demographics impact those local numbers. What's the racial/ethnic and economic makeup of your particular student body?


Not sure how relevant, but very diverse, as most public schools.

But, if ~35 per year aren't missing from my school, then they must be added (and subtracted?) somewhere else. That might be a bigger issue if that's the case.

I just used the gnu's latest numbers 800,000/75,000,000 then use my school population of 3000. Comes out to 32 per year. Every year. My original calculation used 1 million missing, which would be 40 kids per year, every year. At just one school.

Any way you cut it, gnu's numbers don't match reality.

John


[Edited on 12-18-2020 by John Harper]

gnukid - 12-17-2020 at 07:12 PM

More high level human trafficking arrests related to Epstein, Maxwell, etc? How could such a public figure be arrested for high volume level human Sex Trafficking?

https://www.the-sun.com/news/1987071/jeffrey-epstein-pal-jea...

[Edited on 12-18-2020 by gnukid]

gnukid - 12-17-2020 at 07:30 PM

Human trafficking spikes in Texas amid pandemic

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/...

https://www.kxxv.com/hometown/texas/reported-cases-of-human-...

https://www.montgomerynews.com/soudertonindependent/news/hum...

[Edited on 12-18-2020 by gnukid]

caj13 - 12-18-2020 at 10:21 AM

still waiting for your math tutorial on how you arrived at your numbers Gnuey! do you need me to send you a calculator?

Gnu Math ?

MrBillM - 12-18-2020 at 11:17 AM

Trying to do Gnu Math can be a challenge since the real objective with the proffered numbers falls into the "Baffle them with Bullchite" category.

Watching a Fox discussion awhile back when they were still debating the vote numbers, the guest "statistical expert" gave a lengthy discourse on "statistical probabilities" with various probability ranges i.e. "35K-55K", etc. which the host (taking the highest point of each range, of course) then aggregated (though some were subsets of the others) and announced that "THAT totals FAR more than twice Biden's margin so, clearly, there was fraud that MUST be investigated."

As Barbie said ............ "Math is TOUGH !"

gnukid - 12-18-2020 at 11:51 AM

The Fallacy of the Red Herring arguments used to distract and obfuscate from the issue, that belies an insidious intent to minimize an epidemic of human trafficking, which is to demand that someone 'Prove" [to him] each human trafficking statistic, and if he doesn't accept it, it doesn't exist, in order to distract from the actual important topic of each victimized children, women, and men in human trafficking across the border of Mexico and USA.

A primary issue is that many children, are trafficked by their own families.

Generally, in terms of crime, human trafficking, sex exploitation, statistics, average, city to city, year to year, known statistics are extrapolated to unknown, because, MANY CRIMES AND CASES OF HUMAN TRAFFICKING ARE UNREPORTED, the average total reported in USA is 800,000, add the unknown in the border region, and the number is higher than 800,000 per year, possibly 10x higher.

No one, here on a Baja travel forum, is required to solve every single crime report, prosecute the perpetrator and rescue a victim to prove to another "Nomad" the volume human trafficking crime exists. Nor has anyone claimed to be expert or owner of the statistical database, except Caj13, so let him disprove the statistics.

The specific volume of human trafficking is important, each case is important, each case makes up the whole number. For example, to state, many kids escaped, some kids returned home, the child was taken by a parent, so its not the same as an unknown abduction, those are called red herring arguments used by someone interested in harming the dialogue with minutia, in order to disuade casual readers.

Here are some general sources of the number 800,000 missing children in USA at anytime, while the actual number would certainly be higher when we include cross border trafficking, many children brought across the border are outside "the system", with no birth certificate, no social security records, on the other hand many do have birth certificates, it's a mixed bag of globally trafficked children, from USA, Mexico, and every other country in the world across the US/Mexico southern border due to the nature of the border, corruption, and lack of enforcement.

If you have questions about the sources contact the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children

https://ojjdp.ojp.gov/programs/national-center-missing-and-e...

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/International-Par...
1-888-407-4747 or 202-501-4444.

National Center for Missing & Exploited Children
Charles B. Wang International Children's Building
699 Prince Street
Alexandria, VA 22314-3175
800-843-5678
703-224-2122 (fax)
http://www.missingkids.org/
KRON News explains
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlDj0mFtIQg

Search for the truth (trailer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-19NsjoPR8

Movies and Documentaries about human trafficking of children in USA/Mexico
https://www.imdb.com/list/ls074338764/

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2007/01/how-many-childre...

"Each year, 800,000 children are reported missing in America" (actual number is higher)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-missing-children-idUS...

“In the United States, more than 800,000 children are reported missing every year, and nearly half end up living on the streets. Seventy percent will become sex trafficking victims, most within their first 72 hours of living on the street.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/...


"More than 800,000 children younger than 18 go missing each year nationwide, according to the U.S. Department of Justice."
https://globegazette.com/news/iowa/more-than-800-000-childre...





[Edited on 12-19-2020 by gnukid]

caj13 - 12-18-2020 at 01:29 PM

Gnuey, everyone here is concerned about runaway and kidnapped children. unfortunately when you start making wild accusations and spouting unfounded , untrue and misleading information -
That doesn't help the issue -
IN FACT, IT MAKES OTHERS SAY,
THATS JUST SOME CLOWN SPOUTING BULLCHIT AGAIN
It actually distracts from the issue and the solutions.
so I clicked on 2 of your links. the first required a paid subscription,
so i cant see it, but the second , from the washington post -
had this very interesting information"

" But there are huge problems with the 800,000 figure in the first place. While it is mentioned in a document on the NCMEC Web site, the organization notes that it is old data from 1999, derived from the National Incidence Studies of Missing, Abducted, Runaway and Thrownaway Children (NISMART), a random-sample survey released by an arm of the Justice Department. As we have noted before, this same study is frequently misused for the misleading claim that 58,000 children a year are “abducted.” (The number of stereotypical kidnappings listed in the report is actually 115.)"

Gnuey, do you understand why we doubt the crap you post - the very "evidence" you present is in fact directly contradicting your claims.
Grow up man, learn to read, think with a critical mind. Your not helping your cause, you are hurting it, and in the meantime making yourself the laughing stock of the forum.

I left in the 2 sources i checked. maybe you ought to read em - FOR THE FIRST TIME!

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  


“In the United States, more than 800,000 children are reported missing every year, and nearly half end up living on the streets. Seventy percent will become sex trafficking victims, most within their first 72 hours of living on the street.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/...


"More than 800,000 children younger than 18 go missing each year nationwide, according to the U.S. Department of Justice."
https://globegazette.com/news/iowa/more-than-800-000-childre...



gnukid - 12-18-2020 at 07:08 PM

What kind of person argues against awareness of public data about crimes against children?

The highest value we hold is to protect children in our pueblos, from kidnapping, abuse, and human trafficking, yet, a number of "Nomads" argue profusely, using logical fallacies, distraction, obfuscation, against the publicly available data provided by the best sources available to discourage awareness about this topic.

These posters tactics belie their intent.

And they are allowed to persist here.

caj13 - 12-19-2020 at 09:51 AM

so now we can add not even bothering to read the posts?
Gnuey, you are making a fool of yourself. go back and read my first line,. and speaking of red herrings? holy cow man. You get called out for posting bullchit, and your response is "nobody cares about these poor kids but me!

You obviously don't believe that, so why even go that route, all it does is further eroding any shred of credibility you might have!

You want to be taken seriously - try posting some actual verified facts - instead of propaganda and lies!


There is good accurate information out there. and why not give us a solution - other than - keep your eyes open!

what happens when we see what we suspect might be a case of kidnapping or sex trafficking? who do we contact? how do we do that? who do we report it to? How do we follow up.

Instead of running around like chicken little screaming "the sky is falling" and waving around a binder full of Bullsheet and propaganda - give us some real concrete steps - actions we can take!

And the intimation that I or others here may be complicit in any of these crimes. Sir, that is the most offensive vulgar bald faced lie you have ever posted. I do owe you an appropriate response, which i will save until I get the opportunity to meet you face to face - when you can them repeat that allegation to my face - man to man, instead of cowering behind your keyboard!


[Edited on 12-19-2020 by caj13]

mtgoat666 - 12-19-2020 at 10:03 AM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
What kind of person argues against awareness of public data about crimes against children?

The highest value we hold is to protect children in our pueblos, from kidnapping, abuse, and human trafficking, yet, a number of "Nomads" argue profusely, using logical fallacies, distraction, obfuscation, against the publicly available data provided by the best sources available to discourage awareness about this topic.

These posters tactics belie their intent.

And they are allowed to persist here.


Paul,
You are obsessed with talking about children, trafficking and pedophilia, but you are a middle aged man with no children. Me thinks your obsession with children (along with repeating every hokey right wing conspiracy theory) is creepy.

As St. Paul * * Said .....................

MrBillM - 12-19-2020 at 11:13 AM

" ....... Let It Be .......... "

Let him go without the useless challenges. When Gnutty prattles on over missing minors, discuss the effect (due to COVID) of the designated hitter being universally adopted in MLB or something equally important like how Nathan's compares to Hebrew National. Or, Ball Park All-Beef, for that matter.

The Gnudist feeds on these circular debates. Like Der Donald DoocheBag, his ego is pumped by getting it on. The difference would be that (unlike Satan's Ginger-Headed Disciple, his ability to influence anyone of importance is zero.

Well, gotta go and setup my trailer for another 30-day.

And, feed the critters.

* * St Paul McCartney, that is.