BajaNomad

A year into the pandemic and we have finally learned that lock downs and travel restrictions don't work

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JZ - 3-19-2021 at 11:50 AM

Even CNN has finally admitted it.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/17/politics/ron-desantis-covid-f...

St. Petersburg, Florida (CNN)After a year of criticism by health experts, mockery from comedians and blistering critiques from political rivals, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis is standing unabashedly tall among the nation's governors on the front lines of the coronavirus fight.

"Everyone told me I was wrong," DeSantis, a Republican, said in a fundraising appeal on Tuesday, drawing attention to his defiance against the pandemic. "I faced continued pressure from radical Democrats and the liberal media, but I refused to back down. It's clear: Florida got it right."

As many parts of the country embark on an uneasy march toward normalcy, Florida is not only back in business -- it's been in business for the better part of the past year. DeSantis' gamble to take a laissez faire approach appears to be paying off -- at least politically, at least for now, as other governors capturing attention in the opening phase of the pandemic now face steeper challenges.

Despite far fewer rules and restrictions, Florida lands nearly in the middle of all states on a variety of coronavirus metrics. The state has had about 3% more Covid-19 cases per capita than the US overall, but about 8% fewer deaths per capita. More than 32,000 Floridians have died of Covid-19, and the state's per capita death rate ranks 24th in the nation.

"Those lockdowns have not worked. They've done great damage to our country," DeSantis said Tuesday at a news conference in Tallahassee. "We can never let something like this happen again. Florida took a different path. We've had more success as a result."

DeSantis -- who, at 42, is the nation's youngest governor -- is standing out among his peers and seizing upon what he and his supporters believe is a vindication for their policies.

Lockdowns and school openings are suddenly a new measure for voters to hold governors and other elected officials accountable, a sign that the politics of the pandemic could open an uncertain chapter for many holding public office. He will be among the governors putting his record to the test when he runs for re-election next year.

"We still have millions of kids across this country who are denied access to in-person education," DeSantis said at the news conference. "We still have businesses closed in many parts of this country. We have millions and millions of lives destroyed."

'It would not be booming if it was shut down'
With spring on the horizon, DeSantis suddenly appears to be in a position of strength compared to some of his fellow governors, including many of whom took far more restrictive approaches to the fight against coronavirus that caused a trickle-down effect on the economy.

He is not facing a potential recall like California Gov. Gavin Newsom, under investigation like New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo or being second-guessed for lifting a statewide mask mandate like Texas Gov. Greg Abbott.
DeSantis refused to implement a mask mandate in the first place, making him an outlier a year ago. At the time, he was hewing closely to President Donald Trump's playbook, which he argued at the time was good for business.

The unemployment rate in Florida is 4.8 %, according to the latest figures from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, compared to 6.8% in Texas, 8.8% in New York and 9% in California.

"If you look at what's happening in South Florida right now, I mean this place is booming. It would not be booming if it was shut down," DeSantis said last month as a crush of tourists began arriving. "Los Angeles isn't booming. New York City's not booming. It's booming here because you can live like a human being."

Florida has recorded about 9,204 cases per 100,000 people and about 150 deaths per 100,000 people, according to the latest data from Johns Hopkins University. Across the country overall, there have been about 8,969 cases per 100,000 people and 163 deaths per 100,000 people.

Despite far more stringent restrictions, California only ranks one spot better than Florida in both measures. Its death rate is about 5% lower than Florida's, which means about 1,500 lives could have been saved in Florida if the state's death rate matched that of California.

Still, comparing one state to another is complicated and often counterproductive, said Jason Salemi, an associate professor of epidemiology at the University of South Florida College of Public Health who maintains his own Covid dashboard. For example, he said, the humidity of Florida and the density of New York City offer entirely different scenarios for fighting coronavirus.

"What I'd love to ask about Florida is, if we had done things differently in Florida, what would it have looked like?" Salemi told CNN. "If you use those metrics of where Florida is relative to a lot of other states, we're looking middle of the pack. So no, it hasn't been a disaster in that we're leading in mortality per capita in cases per capita."

He added: "It's not always about doing well relative to your peers. It's how can we prevent as much morbidity and mortality from the virus while keeping an eye on what's happening with our economy."

He said Florida has also benefitted from local ordinances requiring masks and restricting the sizes of gatherings. DeSantis has prohibited cities and counties from fining people for refusing to wear masks and is stirring outrage among local officials by pushing to strip their authority to put such rules in place at all.

Throughout the pandemic, it's that defiant and often combative DeSantis who has increasingly become the darling of Republicans. He declines most interview requests, including from CNN, even as he frequently appears on Fox News and other propaganda platforms. He has been locked in one fight after another with the state's media over transparency on Covid statistics and other issues.

Yet his policies have boosted his standing inside his party, all but certainly closing the door to any Republican challenges. Potential Democratic contenders are already circling.

Rep. Charlie Crist -- who served as Republican governor of the state from 2007 to 2011 and switched parties in 2012 -- is among the Democrats thinking about challenging DeSantis for re-election next year. He said he intended to make up his mind before summer.

Asked how he thought Florida had withstood the pandemic, Crist said: "It's a mixed bag, to be candid."

"We have a light at the end of the tunnel feeling and that really is a godsend," Crist told CNN in an interview in his office here. "On the other hand, there's about 33,000 of my fellow Floridians that are dead now. And that's incredibly sad, tragic and beyond unfortunate. So how are we doing? Well, we're slugging through it like the rest of the country is and just doing the best we can."

Crist and other Florida Democrats are calling for a US Justice Department investigation into whether DeSantis gave preference to donors after invitation-only vaccines clinics were set up in at least two upscale communities. The exclusive Covid-19 clinics allowed about 6,000 people to jump ahead of tens of thousands of seniors on waitlists in Manatee and Charlotte counties, where the drives happened.

"Was there preference given to certain Caucasian wealthy, Republican communities?" Crist said. "Because it certainly looks like it."

A spokeswoman for the governor has dismissed the accusation, saying: "The insinuation that politics play into vaccine distribution in Florida is baseless and ridiculous."

'I think he took a gamble and it worked out'
Here in Florida, where beaches along the Atlantic Ocean and on Gulf of Mexico are crowded this week in ways not seen for more than a year, the complete story of the pandemic has yet to be written, as President Joe Biden inherits the challenge and has accelerated vaccines here and across the country. Yet health experts and local officials worry that a parade of spring break vacationers could contribute to a spike in Covid-19 cases.

Tom Golden, who owns a restaurant and bar along the busy stretch of Central Avenue in downtown St. Petersburg, said he didn't have much of an opinion on DeSantis a year ago. But with his business not only surviving, but thriving, he offers a measure of credit to the governor.

"When he went into office, I wasn't sure what to expect," Golden said in an interview just before lunch on a sunny morning this week. "But he didn't do anything to hurt me as a business owner or me as a Floridian. So fine with me."
After businesses were allowed to open after being shuttered for several weeks late last spring, Golden said he recalls having mixed feelings about the balancing act of keeping the economy alive and protecting the public's health.

"Well, of course, as a business owner I supported it, but as a human being, I kept thinking that it's a horrible position to be in," Golden said. "It's a hard one to measure. I think he made a good decision."

Conversations with more than a dozen Floridians offered a wide assessment of views about DeSantis' handling of the coronavirus crisis. Several people suggested they were not initially supportive him, but in hindsight found themselves approving of his decision to reopen the economy and schools.

A woman strolling down the St. Petersburg Pier spoke about her grandchildren in California, who have attended school virtually for the last year. She said she believes the Florida approach was better, given the temperate weather and ability to be outside. She declined to be identified by name, but praised DeSantis' decisions that have allowed the orchestra to resume playing here and the economy to thrive.

Molly Minton, who works as a laboratory supervisor, said she recalls being dispirited as she drove home from work and saw crowded bars and restaurants. Looking back, she said, she is glad many small businesses were able to stay open and believes Florida was simply lucky in many respects.

"I think he took a gamble and it worked out," Minton said of the governor.
In a sprawling state of more than 21 million people, where some estimates say about 1,000 new residents arrive every day, many people said they had no opinion of

DeSantis at all and didn't know much about him.
He was born in Jacksonville and raised on the Gulf Coast just north of here in Dunedin, and he had a love for baseball that sent his team to the Little League World Series. Later, he played outfield while studying at Yale. He graduated from Harvard Law School and worked as a Naval prosecutor, including a stint in Iraq as a Navy JAG lawyer advising a SEAL team.

In 2012, he won a seat in Congress and was elected governor in 2018 two months after he turned 40. He was largely unknown during the primary campaign until he won the endorsement of Trump, who became aware of him through frequent appearances on Fox News.

Now, DeSantis is seen by many grassroots conservatives as a potential 2024 presidential candidate. That path depends on his gubernatorial reelection next year.

His long-range future, of course, also depends on the outcome of the rest of the pandemic. Yet it's clear he hopes to make that his new calling card, which he telegraphed in a fundraising appeal for Republican governors that he sent to supporters on Tuesday.

"Right now," DeSantis wrote, "my state of Florida is one of the only states that said no to oppressive lockdowns and has become an oasis of freedom for Americans."

BajaTed - 3-19-2021 at 01:31 PM

Mother Nature is only on round one.

Tioloco - 3-19-2021 at 01:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaTed  
Mother Nature is only on round one.



Actually, Mother Nature is guaranteed to win. So you may as well step out of the bubble and enjoy her while she lasts.

RFClark - 3-19-2021 at 02:26 PM

The dreaded rebound still hasn’t materialized and not a single report of Zombies!

B571E2AF-6F5F-455A-A259-2D3DD07F8687.jpeg - 260kB

RocketJSquirrel - 3-19-2021 at 06:06 PM

I'm with lencho. It's not over until it's over. Don't get me wrong, I'm ready for it to be over yesterday.

But nobody really knows how this will play out. All even the experts can do is make their best guess. And that's all we can ask for.

surabi - 3-20-2021 at 12:01 AM

Of course lockdowns and travel restrictions work and New Zealand is a good example, as are some other places. What doesn't work is on again off again lockdowns and inconsistent travel restrictions.

You can't lockdown because cases are surging and then open things up again just because the numbers start to drop. That's just stupid.

So comparing different states in the US to each other doesn't hold water because nowhere in the US were lockdowns and travel restrictions consistent, they weren't in place long enough, tons of people ignored the mandates, and they weren't enforced.

Comparing stupid behavior to stupid behavior only results in stupid conclusions.


[Edited on 3-20-2021 by surabi]

[Edited on 3-20-2021 by surabi]

JZ - 3-20-2021 at 01:04 AM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Of course lockdowns and travel restrictions work and New Zealand is a good example, as are some other places. What doesn't work is on again off again lockdowns and inconsistent travel restrictions.

You can't lockdown because cases are surging and then open things up again just because the numbers start to drop. That's just stupid.

So comparing different states in the US to each other doesn't hold water because nowhere in the US were lockdowns and travel restrictions consistent, they weren't in place long enough, tons of people ignored the mandates, and they weren't enforced.

Comparing stupid behavior to stupid behavior only results in stupid conclusions.


Ppl keep bringing up New Zealand as some sort of case study.

Do you realize New Zealand is two islands, isolated from much of the world. Its land mass is nearly twice that of Florida with less than 1/4th the population of Florida at 4.9M. And 70 times less populated than the US.

New Zealand didn't have hundreds of thousands of ppl arriving from Asia and Europe monthly in the 4-5 months before the world realized what we were dealing with.

Hopefully this is the last New Zealand is used as an example of what the US could have done.

And hell yes you can compare FL and California. Remember, that 90% of Covid deaths are with ppl above the age of 60 and Florida has the oldest population in the US outside of Maine.



[Edited on 3-20-2021 by JZ]

RFClark - 3-20-2021 at 08:50 AM

NZ didn’t suffer from the 1918 flu either! The do suffer from Mommy state government though! Even the Aussies think they’re over the top!

Skipjack Joe - 3-20-2021 at 09:53 AM

The only sensible argument that lockdowns don't work is that sick people spread infections by living in close proximity during a lockdown. But at least you contain the ill. Having them walk among others risks a much faster spread. All successful countries have used lockdowns until the virus is gone with travel restrictions and quarantines. I agree that enforcing and not enforcing lockdowns is bullchit. Well, it still helps but the genie is out of the bottle by now. We missed the boat back in April of last year.

caj13 - 3-20-2021 at 10:06 AM

so all of the downturns in the curve , you know, what the data shows - following "lockdowns in reality more strict control measures) thats all BS? the "lockdowns immediately followed by steep decreases in infections and deaths - those are all mirages?

BajaTed - 3-20-2021 at 10:17 AM

The world infection map is a perplexing scenario.
So many why not type questions for many regions of the world?

RFClark - 3-20-2021 at 10:20 AM

One of the engineering takeaways from this pandemic is that in most enclosed spaces air quality is still really poorly monitored and controlled. Even in otherwise very hi tech locations. Aircraft and ships which should have very clean air because its 100% conditioned and filtered often don’t have good air quality and poor or no monitoring.

Large indoor spaces like stores, offices and hospitals are even worse. Sunlight really is a great disinfectant! The outdoors usually has better air quality! Like deserts and the beach that most of us here love!

motoged - 3-20-2021 at 10:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
NZ didn’t suffer from the 1918 flu either! The do suffer from Mommy state government though! Even the Aussies think they’re over the top!



Some cultures need a bit of parenting ( and "Mommy states" sounds a bit like denigrating a mother's role....and implies a sexist calibration of importance). Take a look at how mommies of all species have operated with their offspring....nurturance and guidance....with an occasional redirection requiring a bit of force and discomfort.

"Freedom" requires responsibility..... and isn't measured by an individual's whims.

RFClark - 3-20-2021 at 11:02 AM

Mtoged,

Right words, wrong order!

Responsibility require Freedom, to develop!

motoged - 3-20-2021 at 11:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Mtoged,

Right words, wrong order!

Responsibility require Freedom, to develop!


It would appear that way when you are upside down :lol:

RFClark - 3-20-2021 at 11:35 AM

motoged,

Europe and much of the world is based on the premise that “Rights not specifically granted to you by “the powers that be” are reserved for them”

The 10th Amendment in the American Constitution was unique for its time!

“ The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

It still is unique”! Its also one of the reasons for our success over the years. It has been messy at times but consider that Europe alone has managed to kill off 100+ million of its citizens in the last 120 years!

I don't think that we’ve done that bad by comparison!

motoged - 3-20-2021 at 02:48 PM

I will wait and see how "freedom" works out as your country's civil war plays out.....

RFClark - 3-20-2021 at 06:14 PM

Motoged,

Well we all know how China deals with it. Don’t we? Especially if you’re not Han! Tank tread marks across your T shirt or “voluntary organ donations”!

I personally prefer our messy way. Even Joe Biden will be President for at most 4 years!

BornFisher - 3-20-2021 at 06:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
The dreaded rebound still hasn’t materialized and not a single report of Zombies!



Yeah but there are Zoombies everywhere!!!!:o

pacificobob - 3-21-2021 at 07:05 AM

miami has declared an emergency. clearly they made some stupid policy moves.
maybe they have been listening to the science deniers on BN.

BigBearRider - 3-21-2021 at 10:15 AM

I am not sure this is the correct conclusion to draw at this point.

FL and CA are very different demographically.

Most of the deaths in CA were in LA County. By itself, LA county has more residents than about 40 or so states. The African American and Latino demographics were the hardest hit.

Compare LA to SF, and I think you will have a very different situation.

Now, FL has a different set of circumstances with, for example, an older demographic. DeathSantis, as some call him, was looking awfully bad at the end of the summer where FL led the deaths per capita by about 2:1 over CA and FL was the corona epicenter of the world.

It’s not an apples to apples comparison.

JZ - 3-21-2021 at 12:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BigBearRider  
I am not sure this is the correct conclusion to draw at this point.

FL and CA are very different demographically.

Most of the deaths in CA were in LA County. By itself, LA county has more residents than about 40 or so states. The African American and Latino demographics were the hardest hit.

Compare LA to SF, and I think you will have a very different situation.

Now, FL has a different set of circumstances with, for example, an older demographic. DeathSantis, as some call him, was looking awfully bad at the end of the summer where FL led the deaths per capita by about 2:1 over CA and FL was the corona epicenter of the world.

It’s not an apples to apples comparison.


You can't honestly tell me that DeSantis hasn't managed this crisis light years better than Cuomo and Newsome..

That is just being disingenuous.

RFClark - 3-21-2021 at 12:21 PM

What you can say is DeSantis is popular, Cuomo is being impeached and Newsom is being recalled with 2.1 million signatures at 80+% verified.

That’s apples and apples!

surabi - 3-21-2021 at 10:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by BigBearRider  


Now, FL has a different set of circumstances with, for example, an older demographic. DeathSantis, as some call him, was looking awfully bad at the end of the summer where FL led the deaths per capita by about 2:1 over CA and FL was the corona epicenter of the world.


You can't honestly tell me that DeSantis hasn't managed this crisis light years better than Cuomo and Newsome..

That is just being disingenuous.


The only thing DeSantis has managed well is supressing and fudging the real stats on the infection rate in his state.

JZ - 3-21-2021 at 11:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  


The only thing DeSantis has managed well is supressing and fudging the real stats on the infection rate in his state.


Great tactic. A guy you don't like, does a great job, using an approach you don't agree with, and you start spewing lies about him?


[Edited on 3-22-2021 by JZ]

surabi - 3-21-2021 at 11:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by surabi  


The only thing DeSantis has managed well is supressing and fudging the real stats on the infection rate in his state.


Great tactic. A guy you don't like, does a great job, using an approach you don't agree with, and you start spewing lies about him?


[Edited on 3-22-2021 by JZ]


Calling them lies doesn't make them so. Plenty of information available on his suppression of the infection numbers. Not something I made up because of my own feelings.

surabi - 3-22-2021 at 01:03 AM

Top 10 US states with the highest COVID infection rates per 1 million population:

North Dakota 133,389
South Dakota 130,974
Rhode Island 125,584
Utah 119,037
Iowa 118,458
Tennessee 116,943
Arizona 114,890
Oklahoma 109,804
Arkansas 108,905
Nebraska 106,693

Notice a pattern there? All states with the exception of Rhode Island, whose high numbers were mainly from the beginning of the pandemic when NY and surrounding states were hit hard, have Republican governors who refused to institute lockdowns, or mandate masks. All states with the exception if R.I. and Arizona voted red in the 2020 election.

JZ - 3-22-2021 at 01:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Top 10 US states with the highest COVID infection rates per 1 million population:

North Dakota 133,389
South Dakota 130,974
Rhode Island 125,584
Utah 119,037
Iowa 118,458
Tennessee 116,943
Arizona 114,890
Oklahoma 109,804
Arkansas 108,905
Nebraska 106,693

Notice a pattern there? All states with the exception of Rhode Island, whose high numbers were mainly from the beginning of the pandemic when NY and surrounding states were hit hard, have Republican governors who refused to institute lockdowns, or mandate masks. All states with the exception if R.I. and Arizona voted red in the 2020 election.


Who cares about cases. 99%+ plus recover just fine.

Deaths are what matters. Six of the top seven in deaths per million voted blue.

The bottom line is these unnecessary lock down crushed ppl economically and mentally. Plus all the children who have suffered greatly for no reason when all along the science said it was safe for them to be in school. You don't seem to give a damn about any of that, and won't even acknowledge it.

BigBearRider - 3-22-2021 at 02:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Top 10 US states with the highest COVID infection rates per 1 million population:

North Dakota 133,389
South Dakota 130,974
Rhode Island 125,584
Utah 119,037
Iowa 118,458
Tennessee 116,943
Arizona 114,890
Oklahoma 109,804
Arkansas 108,905
Nebraska 106,693

Notice a pattern there? All states with the exception of Rhode Island, whose high numbers were mainly from the beginning of the pandemic when NY and surrounding states were hit hard, have Republican governors who refused to institute lockdowns, or mandate masks. All states with the exception if R.I. and Arizona voted red in the 2020 election.


Who cares about cases. 99%+ plus recover just fine.

Deaths are what matters. Six of the top seven in deaths per million voted blue.

The bottom line is these unnecessary lock down crushed ppl economically and mentally. Plus all the children who have suffered greatly for no reason when all along the science said it was safe for them to be in school. You don't seem to give a damn about any of that, and won't even acknowledge it.



As I’m sure most people understand, infections and deaths are much more likely in highly populated areas (and almost all such areas vote predominately blue). Again, the population of LA County alone dwarfs some 40 states. That makes the death data from the sparsely populated red states all the more problematic.

RFClark - 3-22-2021 at 04:57 AM

The only state demonstrated to have cooked the number of COVID deaths is NY! The Governor of NY will probably be impeached over that fact!

Terry28 - 3-22-2021 at 09:16 AM

Over half a million deaths and climbing is no joke....masks work, distancing works, vaccines work.....these are facts not opinions...

pacificobob - 3-22-2021 at 11:07 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Terry28  
Over half a million deaths and climbing is no joke....masks work, distancing works, vaccines work.....these are facts not opinions...


part of being a good conservative is to deny the science. like IQ45 sez..."i love the poorly educated"

Tioloco - 3-22-2021 at 11:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob  
Quote: Originally posted by Terry28  
Over half a million deaths and climbing is no joke....masks work, distancing works, vaccines work.....these are facts not opinions...


part of being a good conservative is to deny the science. like IQ45 sez..."i love the poorly educated"


If the masks and lockdowns worked, New York and California would be success stories. Instead, look at Florida. That is a success story. Meanwhile, vaccinated people are still expected to wear a mask and sit at home.
No thank you. If you are vulnerable, stay home.

caj13 - 3-22-2021 at 12:05 PM

I suppose many here are not familiar with whats happening in Florida right now?
and JZ - very interesting statistic on 6 of the top 7 in deaths per million voted blue - any particular reason you "stopped" counting at 7? you're not cherry picking data are you? and since you have access to those data, could you tell us how floridas current death rate matches up to California, and texas? - please?

RFClark - 3-22-2021 at 12:17 PM

Pacficobob,

So are you saying Cuomo is really a Conservative and I’m not?

surabi - 3-22-2021 at 01:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
[

Who cares about cases. 99%+ plus recover just fine.



The COVID death rate is 3%, not 1%. And one out of 3 infection cases don't 'recover just fine'- they have long -lasting ill effects, some possibly permanent.

Many people do care about that.

[Edited on 3-22-2021 by surabi]

JZ - 3-22-2021 at 01:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13  
since you have access to those data, could you tell us how floridas current death rate matches up to California, and texas? - please?


Cases

FL 29
CA 31

Deaths (FL has the oldest population in the US)

FL 27
CA 31

Florida open. Florida kids in school and not being permanently impacted for life. Florida unemployment half of CA. Florida with less mental and economic trauma to hundreds of thousands of ppl.

As the WHO has told us and Florida demonstrates it, lock downs don't work past the point of getting your medical professionals geared up. Follow the science.




[Edited on 3-22-2021 by JZ]

Tioloco - 3-22-2021 at 02:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by caj13  
since you have access to those data, could you tell us how floridas current death rate matches up to California, and texas? - please?


Cases

FL 29
CA 31

Deaths (FL has the oldest population in the US)

FL 27
CA 31

Florida open. Florida kids in school and not being permanently impacted for life. Florida unemployment half of CA. Florida with less mental and economic trauma to hundreds of thousands of ppl.

As the WHO has told us and Florida demonstrates, lock downs don't work past the point of getting your medical professionals geared up. Follow the science.




JZ, you know Caj13 can not acknowledge this reality. He will probably respond with something about climate change or racism. :barf:

JZ - 3-22-2021 at 02:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  


The COVID death rate is 3%, not 1%.


Are you really serious about this 3%?

I don't see the latest number, but Fauci had it as low as .6% as far back as September ("Fauci and other public health experts have since put the COVID-19 death rate at about 0.6% -- six times that of a typical flu season -- which is the latest CDC projection.").

I'm sure that has been lowered from there. And for ppl under 60 and without underlying health issues it is a lot less than that. That is why you don't lock down an entire country. You protect the ones at risk.

Life is all about balance. You can't have zero risk in life.


[Edited on 3-22-2021 by JZ]

Tioloco - 3-22-2021 at 02:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by surabi  


The COVID death rate is 3%, not 1%.


Are you really serious about this 3%?

I don't see the latest number, but Fauci had it as low as .6% as far back as September ("Fauci and other public health experts have since put the COVID-19 death rate at about 0.6% -- six times that of a typical flu season -- which is the latest CDC projection.").

I'm sure that has been lowered from there. And for ppl under 60 and without underlying health issues it is a lot less than that. That is why you don't lock down an entire country. You protect the ones at risk.

Life is all about balance. You can't have zero risk in life.


[Edited on 3-22-2021 by JZ]


Will surabi acknowledge this fact? Doubtful

surabi - 3-22-2021 at 03:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by surabi  


The COVID death rate is 3%, not 1%.


Are you really serious about this 3%?

I don't see the latest number, but Fauci had it as low as .6% as far back as September ("Fauci and other public health experts have since put the COVID-19 death rate at about 0.6% -- six times that of a typical flu season -- which is the latest CDC projection.").

I'm sure that has been lowered from there. And for ppl under 60 and without underlying health issues it is a lot less than that. That is why you don't lock down an entire country. You protect the ones at risk.

Life is all about balance. You can't have zero risk in life.


[Edited on 3-22-2021 by JZ]


Will surabi acknowledge this fact? Doubtful


Acknowledge what 'fact'? Check out the World-o-meters covid site. Quite reliable, updated daily. 2% death rate in the US, 3% worldwide ( but those "other" people obviously don't matter to you guys) and of
the 1 out of 3 who have had the virus and are experiencing long-term effects, a large percentage are young people with no underlying conditions.

But who cares as long as you're free to do everything you want, right?

JZ - 3-22-2021 at 03:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  


2% death rate in the US, 3% worldwide

1 out of 3 who have had the virus are experiencing long-term effects


This is just crazy inaccurate. I hope you don't truly belief that.

DouglasP - 3-22-2021 at 04:58 PM

Our Canadian friends get it!

https://youtu.be/u7vWuIO5Q6Y

surabi - 3-22-2021 at 06:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by surabi  


2% death rate in the US, 3% worldwide

1 out of 3 who have had the virus are experiencing long-term effects


This is just crazy inaccurate. I hope you don't truly belief that.


Just as calling something a lie doesn't make it so, calling it inaccurate doesn't make it so, either.

It isn't a matter of what I believe, it's a matter of facts, versus the way you and some others here operate, which appears to be believing whatever supports your personal views and dismissing anything that doesn't as inaccurate or a lie.

It's of no value to me to believe the virus is worse than it is. I wish it was something benign. But believing it's no big deal is obviously of value to those who don't want to be limited in any way in their movements, so they can rationalize their lack of caring for anyone but themselves.

RFClark - 3-22-2021 at 06:26 PM

The CDC gets it too!

Per the CDC 80% of all COVID deaths are in the 65+ age group. That means that .04% of those under 65 who get COVID die!

That’s why they are vaccinating those over 65 1st! That’s also why hospital admissions in that age group have gone down by 80%!

gnukid - 3-22-2021 at 07:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
The CDC gets it too!

Per the CDC 80% of all COVID deaths are in the 65+ age group. That means that .04% of those under 65 who get COVID die!



But there is no study to show that those who died, died from covid, while they did state that they died from 2-3 pre-existing severe co-morbidiidties.

No studies show anyone died from covid only from (influenza).

Generally, people who are final stages of disease, who are also obese, diabetic, suffering heart disease etc will die from those causes.


dataset (not validated by me - do your own research)
https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/11/18/covid-infection-fatalit...


covid infection fatality rate death rate by age sex_0.png - 140kB


[Edited on 3-23-2021 by gnukid]

caj13 - 3-23-2021 at 08:25 AM

530,000 people dead of covid in the USA over the last year, and gnuey still wants toi wordsmith it away as "just the flu"

your ignorance - worse, your willfull ignorance is astoundingly tone deaf, not to say your "facts" have nothing to do with reality truth or real facts.

All of your claims have repeatedly been shown to be false retoric spouted by russian troll sights or right wing media, none based on facts. the few times you do actually report actual facts, you immeidtaely demonstrate a complete lack of understanding on those facts.

So when you need heart surgery - let me know, the guy who does my landscaping says hes running a side hustle doing open heart surgeries - and his patients have a much higher sucess rate that the clinically trained experts patients. let me know - I'll set you up for an appointment!

[Edited on 3-23-2021 by caj13]

caj13 - 3-23-2021 at 08:34 AM

so lets summerize:
JZ says lockdowns don't work.

I point out every graph , chart, statistic in existance shows rising infections and deaths, followed by stricter controls , and magically - the death and infection rates fall drastically - every time - every single time!

Math don't lie,

But strangely - when i pointed out this to JZ - crickets, instead he pivots to - well the death rate numbers are wrong (not suprisingly backed by a complete lack of data)

JZ - when are you going to address the data that show conclusively - world wide that increasing control measures limits infections and deaths ?
- sorry - it just does - obviously, dramatically and conclusively. i'm sorry if that ruffles your trumpian feathers - deal with facts - instead of sitting around trying to fabricate up elaborate lies and bullchit!

apple - 3-23-2021 at 08:43 AM

How do we know lockdowns don't work? We never really did one....

Lee - 3-23-2021 at 09:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13  
so lets summerize:
JZ says lockdowns don't work.

I point out every graph , chart, statistic in existance shows rising infections and deaths, followed by stricter controls , and magically - the death and infection rates fall drastically - every time - every single time!

Math don't lie,

But strangely - when i pointed out this to JZ - crickets, instead he pivots to - well the death rate numbers are wrong (not suprisingly backed by a complete lack of data)

JZ - when are you going to address the data that show conclusively - world wide that increasing control measures limits infections and deaths ?
- sorry - it just does - obviously, dramatically and conclusively. i'm sorry if that ruffles your trumpian feathers - deal with facts - instead of sitting around trying to fabricate up elaborate lies and bullchit!


Nothing persona to JZ. Regarding the virus though, he's clueless. He quotes WHO, CNN and DeSantis. I'm disappointed.

Desantis says blah blah blah. Masks don't work blah blah blah. Lockdowns? No way. Blah blah blah. We're here to live our lives fully and enjoy the sunshine in this great trump state. Blah blah blah.

Ignore this subject and don't respond to him. He doesn't have answers or they would have been posted. He has a dog in this fight whether it's supporting the MX economy or his business.

Blah blah blah. Quotes Desantis? Total bullshlt. Clueless.

pacificobob - 3-23-2021 at 10:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
Quote: Originally posted by caj13  
so lets summerize:
JZ says lockdowns don't work.

I point out every graph , chart, statistic in existance shows rising infections and deaths, followed by stricter controls , and magically - the death and infection rates fall drastically - every time - every single time!

Math don't lie,

But strangely - when i pointed out this to JZ - crickets, instead he pivots to - well the death rate numbers are wrong (not suprisingly backed by a complete lack of data)

JZ - when are you going to address the data that show conclusively - world wide that increasing control measures limits infections and deaths ?
- sorry - it just does - obviously, dramatically and conclusively. i'm sorry if that ruffles your trumpian feathers - deal with facts - instead of sitting around trying to fabricate up elaborate lies and bullchit!


Nothing persona to JZ. Regarding the virus though, he's clueless. He quotes WHO, CNN and DeSantis. I'm disappointed.

Desantis says blah blah blah. Masks don't work blah blah blah. Lockdowns? No way. Blah blah blah. We're here to live our lives fully and enjoy the sunshine in this great trump state. Blah blah blah.

Ignore this subject and don't respond to him. He doesn't have answers or they would have been posted. He has a dog in this fight whether it's supporting the MX economy or his business.

Blah blah blah. Quotes Desantis? Total bullshlt. Clueless.


i agree with you lee. i won't be engaging with the BN flat earth crew in the future ...

Putin is right wing now?

AKgringo - 3-23-2021 at 10:15 AM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13  


All of your claims have repeatedly been shown to be false retoric spouted by russian troll sights or right wing media,
[Edited on 3-23-2021 by caj13]


Putin has finally agreed to get a vaccination now, but not on camera! It seems that 62% of Russians don't believe it is safe, resulting in only 5% of the population being vaccinated so far.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56498847

Their reported numbers (if believable) are falling, despite having no lockdowns since spring of 2020!

FWIW, I got my shots when I could, and have altered my daily routine to lessen the chance of being infected, or passing the virus to someone else, but I will not be double masking while alone with my dog!

Tioloco - 3-23-2021 at 10:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob  
Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
Quote: Originally posted by caj13  
so lets summerize:
JZ says lockdowns don't work.

I point out every graph , chart, statistic in existance shows rising infections and deaths, followed by stricter controls , and magically - the death and infection rates fall drastically - every time - every single time!

Math don't lie,

But strangely - when i pointed out this to JZ - crickets, instead he pivots to - well the death rate numbers are wrong (not suprisingly backed by a complete lack of data)

JZ - when are you going to address the data that show conclusively - world wide that increasing control measures limits infections and deaths ?
- sorry - it just does - obviously, dramatically and conclusively. i'm sorry if that ruffles your trumpian feathers - deal with facts - instead of sitting around trying to fabricate up elaborate lies and bullchit!


Nothing persona to JZ. Regarding the virus though, he's clueless. He quotes WHO, CNN and DeSantis. I'm disappointed.

Desantis says blah blah blah. Masks don't work blah blah blah. Lockdowns? No way. Blah blah blah. We're here to live our lives fully and enjoy the sunshine in this great trump state. Blah blah blah.

Ignore this subject and don't respond to him. He doesn't have answers or they would have been posted. He has a dog in this fight whether it's supporting the MX economy or his business.

Blah blah blah. Quotes Desantis? Total bullshlt. Clueless.


i agree with you lee. i won't be engaging with the BN flat earth crew in the future ...


Adios Lee! Like all liberals you use insults to try and prove your point.

gnukid - 3-23-2021 at 11:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13  
530,000 people dead of covid in the USA over the last year, and gnuey still wants toi wordsmith it away as "just the flu"
[Edited on 3-23-2021 by caj13]


Covid response team parties admit amplification of categorization of "death with covid" assigned to people who died in hospice of pre-existing severe comorbidities.

The CDC data can be reviewed by anyone to show the deaths were simply moved from the common causes of deaths columns over to covid, along with simplified guidelines, so that even people who died in accidents, were labeled as death with covid.

All parties publicly stated simplification of covid guidelines amplified cases and deaths, quotes have been shared here of Birx, Fauci, et al stating that actual deaths from covid still remain zero because there has been no formal review nor formal excess death count which will take years, while certainly more than 94% died of preexisting 2-3 severe comorbidities while the remaining 6% may have died of accidents or other causes.

"At Tuesday's White House coronavirus press conference, task force member Dr. Deborah Birx said that while some countries are reporting coronavirus fatality numbers differently, in the U.S. you are counted as a victim of the pandemic if you die while testing positive for the virus, even if something else causes your death."
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/08/dr_birx_u...

Furthermore, CDC stated financial incentivization of categorizing provisional death count as died with covid caused amplification.

More so, it is well admitted that PCR RT which was commonly used for covid testing, is not a test for covid or any unique illness.

Anyone with a cursory ability to pay attention to CDC sites and news knows that incentivized amplification of categorization was intentional to promote a preplanned agenda to reset economies, sell mRNA gene therapy programming vaccines that are experimental, emergency use, with no long term testing, no testing on high risk demographics, nor adequate animal testing.

CDC director acknowledges hospitals have a monetary incentive to overcount coronavirus deaths
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/cdc-director-acknowl...

No FDA Approved Covid vaccine exists. Such experimental untested vaccine distribution upon mass populations has never been done to this extent, nor has an mRNA gene therapy platform product been distributed for injection broadly, and doing so is certain to have significant negative impact on broad human health and immunity over time, when vaccinated people are challenged by variants.

See CDC VAERS of just a fraction of adverse effects from those who took a covid vaccine jab.
https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data?start=190

What’s the difference between FDA approval and authorization?
https://www.theverge.com/22189236/fda-approval-authorization...

Unclear what motivation anyone would have for promoting mass human experimentation on human RNA, for a demonstrably fraudulent agenda, that already has resulted in significant adverse effects and deaths as is shared on this site within hundreds of sourced documents, studies and reports.

At this point, one can only assume those that promote experimental broad distribution of mRNA gene therapy are either ill informed, have ill will with motive for profit while being willing cause significant harm to mental, physical and economic health.

CDC ignores inquiry into increasing number of deaths, injuries reported after COVID vaccines
https://noqreport.com/2021/03/21/cdc-ignores-inquiry-into-in...

The brief testing provided for the current suite of vaccines means, only a small population was tested over a short time, inadequate to review total set of adverse effects.

Good CV resource https://www.primarydoctor.org/covidvaccine

Today, the broadly distributed AtraZeneca covid product is accused of using old data sets and of blood clotting issues, yet Mexico is proceeding to distribute that vaccine widely.

Astra to Hasten Trial Update After U.S. Calls Results Outdated
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-23/astra-may...

https://news.yahoo.com/astrazeneca-issue-trial-u-criticism-1...
AstraZeneca to publish full U.S. trial results after rare rebuke over 'outdated' data

AstraZeneca's COVID vaccine suspended in more countries over low number of blood clots
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-europ...

Danish woman dead after AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine, blood clotting had ‘highly unusual’ symptoms
https://www.foxnews.com/health/danish-woman-dead-after-astra...

Austria Suspends AstraZeneca COVID-19 Vaccine Batch After Woman's Death
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/austria-suspends-astrazeneca...

Denmark reports a death and a critical illness after 2 AstraZeneca vaccinations, prompting more reviews.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/20/world/europe/denmark-astr...




[Edited on 3-23-2021 by gnukid]

elgatoloco - 3-23-2021 at 12:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
Covid response team parties admit ...


:lol:

Skipjack Joe - 3-23-2021 at 03:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo  
Quote: Originally posted by caj13  


All of your claims have repeatedly been shown to be false retoric spouted by russian troll sights or right wing media,
[Edited on 3-23-2021 by caj13]


Putin has finally agreed to get a vaccination now, but not on camera! It seems that 62% of Russians don't believe it is safe, resulting in only 5% of the population being vaccinated so far.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56498847

Their reported numbers (if believable) are falling, despite having no lockdowns since spring of 2020!

FWIW, I got my shots when I could, and have altered my daily routine to lessen the chance of being infected, or passing the virus to someone else, but I will not be double masking while alone with my dog!


You have the same arguments that my wife uses with China. No deaths in 2 weeks? Impossible. Dishonesty.

But when China was showing thousands per day? Of course they were honest then, even though the numbers were zero everywhere else in the world. The message is clear - communism=liars. We're the only ones that tell the truth.

I have watched the news media reporting on Russia for a long time now. All progress that occurs is never reported but any mishap it makes the nightly news immediately. Plane crash. Submarine in distress. AntiPutin dissident. And now the same is happening with China. This is trash journalism. The truth is that Sputnik V is the best non mRNA vaccine out there (Pfizer and Moderna have better numbers). Are you aware that the US government pressured Brazil to back out of a Sputnik agreement it had made in October on political grounds? Brazil has now reordered those viruses but tens of thousands have died in the interim and Brazil is far behind in vaccination. The same has occurred in EU, which is backing the Astra Zeneca vaccine, which has been recalled numerous times. So Europeans are dying from covid but not allowed to import the Russian vaccine because those in power will not approve it? It's political bullchit. And so is this article which is yet another veiled attempt to discredit the Sputnik V virus by insinuating that Putin himself doesn't trust it. How do we know that? What kind of journalism is this? The BBC has an agenda with respect to Russia and this is just one example.

Now we have sanctions on China due to human rights issues. For 50 years nobody cared what went on over there and now that it's a rising world power "we have our principles". I just hope that people can see through all this.

John Harper - 3-23-2021 at 07:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  

Now we have sanctions on China due to human rights issues. For 50 years nobody cared what went on over there and now that it's a rising world power "we have our principles". I just hope that people can see through all this.


Many of us who are students of history do.

John

JZ - 3-23-2021 at 07:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by caj13  
so lets summerize:
JZ says lockdowns don't work.

I point out every graph , chart, statistic in existance shows rising infections and deaths, followed by stricter controls , and magically - the death and infection rates fall drastically - every time - every single time!

Math don't lie,

But strangely - when i pointed out this to JZ - crickets, instead he pivots to - well the death rate numbers are wrong (not suprisingly backed by a complete lack of data)

JZ - when are you going to address the data that show conclusively - world wide that increasing control measures limits infections and deaths ?
- sorry - it just does - obviously, dramatically and conclusively. i'm sorry if that ruffles your trumpian feathers - deal with facts - instead of sitting around trying to fabricate up elaborate lies and bullchit!


Try reading the op. It is the point of the thread.

Newsome's traumatizing of kids, crushing businesses, and leaving many thousands penny less was entirely unnecessary. He caused mental health issues and alcoholism. Florida proved he was very wrong by doing the exact opposite.

You have been provided a 1 year, real life case study documented by a Lib publication. Don't get mad at me. Get mad at the facts.

Some of us knew it from the jump and didn't p!ss away a year of our lives. I traveled (safely) to 10 states last year, many 2-3 times.



[Edited on 3-24-2021 by JZ]

RFClark - 3-23-2021 at 08:01 PM

I remember both Truman and MacArthur. My Cousin and some friends served in Korea. I still go back and forth on what should have been done about China at the time. Most days I think Truman did the right thing.

China was, has been and is a problem! It will be a problem going forward. China has been responsible for a number of plagues and pandemics. It will be going forward.

The Flu still killed 50K Americans a year prior to COVID and it’s been around 100 years, plus we’ve had vaccinations since the ‘50s!

The sole purpose of the lockdown was to buy time for a vaccine to be developed and effective treatments to be tested! It’s past time to move on. People will die of COVID and the Flu going forward. Feel free to hide under your bed with Goat! There are no Guarantees in life except death!

[Edited on 3-24-2021 by RFClark]

gnukid - 3-23-2021 at 08:16 PM

CDC VAERS Covid Vaccine Adverse Effects Report System USA
https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data?start=190

vaers.png - 78kB

https://vaers.hhs.gov

[Edited on 3-24-2021 by gnukid]

gnukid - 3-23-2021 at 08:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  


The Flu still killed 50K Americans a year prior to COVID and it’s been around 100 years, plus we’ve had vaccinations since the ‘50s!


While you are spot on in general, this is an intentional exaggeration, there are fewer deaths associatedto flu every year, in 2004, CDC reported, after review, excess deaths from flu are less than 1000.

What is clear is that deaths from flu are exaggerated to promote vaccines, which are more harmful than the flu.



[Edited on 3-24-2021 by gnukid]

IMG_4387 (7).jpeg - 161kB

[Edited on 3-24-2021 by gnukid]

gnukid - 3-23-2021 at 08:41 PM

Good Covid reference https://www.primarydoctor.org/covidvaccine


1.png - 260kB



4.png - 245kB



3.png - 249kB



2.png - 236kB




[Edited on 3-24-2021 by gnukid]

RFClark - 3-23-2021 at 08:54 PM

gnukid,

There has been excess mortality because of COVID. People who would have died anyway have died of COVID! People who wouldn't have died now have died. We will argue forever over which was worse the disease or the lockdown. Long term I think the lockdown will have an effect long after we get a COVID shot along with our flu shot each year.

To date 126+ million doses of vaccine have been given in the US. In that population (25% at least one shot) you would expect about 15K people to die each month normally from all causes.

Even if your numbers are correct (?) you still vaccinate! You also prosecute those who lied to cover up the mistakes they made like Cuomo of NY and applaud those who pushed to get vaccines in record time!

RFClark - 3-23-2021 at 09:13 PM

Lee,

Neither lockdowns nor ventilators ultimately save many COVID patients! Both buy time. Without a vaccine ultimately everyone who could get COVID would get it unless the virus mutated as it does and became less deadly. Note that hasn’t happened yet!

If the guy you love hate hadn’t bought hundreds of millions of doses of “blue sky vaccine” and pushed the FDA we wouldn’t have it now. There were just under a million people vaccinated the day Joe was sworn in!

Unless you are an ex-Marine MD, I probably know more about this than you do! I’ll match you a dumb ass Liberal for every dumb ass Conservative you name too! There were Liberal vaccine deniers before this ever stared!

JZ - 3-23-2021 at 10:39 PM

For the record, I've been a never Trumper for 5 of the last 6 years. The guy disgusts me as a person (policy was ok). And of course, Covid is a very deadly and serious plague (although, it doesn't have a death rate of 3% as Surabi says, we'd really be in trouble if that was true, and that's as ridiculous as Gnukid's nonsense).

But watching the left weaponize Covid to get Trump out was a bridge too far. Especially when combined with defund the police, labeling whites as white supremacist, and allowing riots to rage across America for months.

I'll always be in the middle. But the far left with its backing of the media, what is going on at universities (my twins are in college now so I see it), big tech, and the idea that govt. is responsible for providing for everyone will destroy America if not checked.

I really hope some of you realize this.



[Edited on 3-24-2021 by JZ]

BajaNomad - 3-23-2021 at 11:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
Good Covid reference https://www.primarydoctor.org/covidvaccine


Hardly. :lol::lol::lol:

The sole purpose of that site is commercially promoting naturopathic doctors. So first, there's quite a conflict of interest.

And secondly, all the Covid/mask/etc articles are authored by Colleen Huber, who appears to have little credibility with so many folks - going back even before Covid, and noted prominently as a "quack" by others.

Noting this site as a "good Covid reference" (emphasized at least twice in this thread!) negates any credibility for someone who would choose to promote it as such. Or maybe it's just me? YMMV

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/logical-take/202007/...

https://skepticalinquirer.org/2020/03/beware-the-naturopathi...

https://www.naturopathicdiaries.com/justice-prevails-cancer-...

Mulege Canuck - 3-24-2021 at 06:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DouglasP  
Our Canadian friends get it!

https://youtu.be/u7vWuIO5Q6Y


I know one of the doctors in this video. The other 20 or so doctors that live in this area strongly disagree with his opinion. The vocal minority always seem to get the headlines. This video does not represent the opinion of health professionals in Canada.

Skipjack Joe - 3-24-2021 at 01:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
Good Covid reference https://www.primarydoctor.org/covidvaccine

mRNA can affect DNA. One of the most worrisome risks with a mRNA vaccine is what can happen with reverse transcriptase. This is an enzyme in every cell, and it can theoretically lead to the mRNA creating changes in the cells’ DNA, a process known as viral retro-integration. Although this possibility had been thought unlikely, MIT and Harvard scientists found it happened here. If some of the 30 trillion or so cells in your body become permanent COVID factories, what is the long-term impact on your health, and would you want that outcome?



Note how insidious this quote is. It doesn't say the vaccine will affect your DNA. It says it can happen. Thus the author has not effectively lied to you but he has achieved his goal - to poison your mind with doubt. Since we really aren't knowledgable enough to know whether this particular vaccine mRNA has the ability to perform reverse transcripterase, or even know what that is, the author has achieved his goal. It's really the same strategy used to sway public opinion on global warming.

gnukid - 3-24-2021 at 06:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by BajaNomad  
Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
Good Covid reference https://www.primarydoctor.org/covidvaccine


Hardly. :lol::lol::lol:


Do you have a criticism of the content with sources to add or contradict to the statements, versus personal attacks, which are logical fallacies?

gnukid - 3-24-2021 at 06:41 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
Good Covid reference https://www.primarydoctor.org/covidvaccine

mRNA can affect DNA. One of the most worrisome risks with a mRNA vaccine is what can happen with reverse transcriptase. This is an enzyme in every cell, and it can theoretically lead to the mRNA creating changes in the cells’ DNA, a process known as viral retro-integration. Although this possibility had been thought unlikely, MIT and Harvard scientists found it happened here. If some of the 30 trillion or so cells in your body become permanent COVID factories, what is the long-term impact on your health, and would you want that outcome?



Note how insidious this quote is. It doesn't say the vaccine will affect your DNA. It says it can happen. Thus the author has not effectively lied to you but he has achieved his goal - to poison your mind with doubt. Since we really aren't knowledgable enough to know whether this particular vaccine mRNA has the ability to perform reverse transcripterase, or even know what that is, the author has achieved his goal. It's really the same strategy used to sway public opinion on global warming.


This is hardly a critique, if you want to share more about RNA and how it works in your body, perhaps you can be more clear why you object to the phrase which is hardly the primary point, but is apparently your primary objection?

This is known as a straw man fallacy.

Skipjack Joe - 3-24-2021 at 07:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by gnukid  
Good Covid reference https://www.primarydoctor.org/covidvaccine

mRNA can affect DNA. One of the most worrisome risks with a mRNA vaccine is what can happen with reverse transcriptase. This is an enzyme in every cell, and it can theoretically lead to the mRNA creating changes in the cells’ DNA, a process known as viral retro-integration. Although this possibility had been thought unlikely, MIT and Harvard scientists found it happened here. If some of the 30 trillion or so cells in your body become permanent COVID factories, what is the long-term impact on your health, and would you want that outcome?



Note how insidious this quote is. It doesn't say the vaccine will affect your DNA. It says it can happen. Thus the author has not effectively lied to you but he has achieved his goal - to poison your mind with doubt. Since we really aren't knowledgable enough to know whether this particular vaccine mRNA has the ability to perform reverse transcripterase, or even know what that is, the author has achieved his goal. It's really the same strategy used to sway public opinion on global warming.


This is hardly a critique, if you want to share more about RNA and how it works in your body, perhaps you can be more clear why you object to the phrase which is hardly the primary point, but is apparently your primary objection?

This is known as a straw man fallacy.



You yourself need to brush up on what straw man fallacy is because you have used it inappropriately. As far as how RNA works - I understand it better than you ever will. You have demonstrated that here over the last several months. You've been copying and pasting material you don't even understand. I have been correcting your misinformation throughout. How's that for straw man fallacy? I'm not going to get into a peeing contest with contradicting links but here is Australias explanation about why it approved the Pfizer virus amongst all the myths out there. Many of them you have been quoting on this board.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-25/pfizer-vaccine-misinformation-on-safety-myth-busted/13089550

Note the difference between your quote that provides unsubstantiated information with 'it may...' versus this article with plainly states that 'it is NOT a retrograde viral snippet'.


[Edited on 3-25-2021 by Skipjack Joe]

Lee - 3-25-2021 at 12:52 PM

A year into the pandemic and we know that hundreds of thousands didn't have to die. Had former president a$$hat acted sooner, had stopped denying there was a problem, been more pro-mask, the outcome would have been different.

Lockdowns work, as do masks and distancing. Believe what you want to believe.

Just stop spreading disinformation on this forum looking for a debate to demonstrate how ignorant and uneducated you are.


pacificobob - 3-25-2021 at 01:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
A year into the pandemic and we know that hundreds of thousands didn't have to die. Had former president a$$hat acted sooner, had stopped denying there was a problem, been more pro-mask, the outcome would have been different.

Lockdowns work, as do masks and distancing. Believe what you want to believe.

Just stop spreading disinformation on this forum looking for a debate to demonstrate how ignorant and uneducated you are.




well said lee. X2!

Tioloco - 3-25-2021 at 01:45 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob  
Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
A year into the pandemic and we know that hundreds of thousands didn't have to die. Had former president a$$hat acted sooner, had stopped denying there was a problem, been more pro-mask, the outcome would have been different.

Lockdowns work, as do masks and distancing. Believe what you want to believe.

Just stop spreading disinformation on this forum looking for a debate to demonstrate how ignorant and uneducated you are.




well said lee. X2!


If you go back to the original post, JZ makes his point.
You guys can keep believing that a cloth mask works, or that the 6' BS is effective. Either way, you are ignoring the evidence.

Tioloco - 3-25-2021 at 01:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
A year into the pandemic and we know that hundreds of thousands didn't have to die. Had former president a$$hat acted sooner, had stopped denying there was a problem, been more pro-mask, the outcome would have been different.

Lockdowns work, as do masks and distancing. Believe what you want to believe.

Just stop spreading disinformation on this forum looking for a debate to demonstrate how ignorant and uneducated you are.






Blaming Trump is funny. Do you also blame Governor Newsom or Governor Cuomo?
I guess I already know the answer. A bit hypocritical dont you think?

JZ - 3-25-2021 at 02:19 PM

I'm not saying Trump didn't make mistakes.

But Cuomo surely is far worse than Trump. He killed so many seniors who didn't need to die. Wrote a book about it to receive praise months into the pandemic. Covered it up. And treated everyone he came into contact with as subhuman. On top of crushing millions financially and emotionally.

Tioloco - 3-25-2021 at 02:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
I'm not saying Trump didn't make mistakes.

But Cuomo surely is far worse than Trump. He killed so many seniors who didn't need to die. Wrote a book about it to receive praise months into the pandemic. Covered it up. And treated everyone he came into contact with as subhuman. On top of crushing millions financially and emotionally.



JZ, you know these "enlightened" liberals are going to attack you for saying that. It all comes back to being compassionate. If you claim to be compassionate you can do whatever you choose. If you say it how it is, you are a Neanderthal. But they always claim to be tolerant- until you disagree with them.

BajaNomad - 3-25-2021 at 02:49 PM

Keep discussing USA politicians, and this thread goes to off-topic!

Just sayin'.

;)

Lee - 3-25-2021 at 07:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob  
Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
A year into the pandemic and we know that hundreds of thousands didn't have to die. Had former president a$$hat acted sooner, had stopped denying there was a problem, been more pro-mask, the outcome would have been different.

Lockdowns work, as do masks and distancing. Believe what you want to believe.

Just stop spreading disinformation on this forum looking for a debate to demonstrate how ignorant and uneducated you are.




well said lee. X2!


If you go back to the original post, JZ makes his point.
You guys can keep believing that a cloth mask works, or that the 6' BS is effective. Either way, you are ignoring the evidence.


Geesus. Who are you?

Ignoring the evidence? You mean from JZ, CNN, and Desantis? Are you serious? You believe that's evidence?

And let me get this straight. You think masks and distancing = pointless. That's the debate, amigo. You believe JZ, CNN and Desantis. I don't.

Get the vaccine or don't. Don't try to make a political point about a pandemic. Unconscionable.

If you study Microbiology, you'll understand the efficacy of masks and distance. Homework, bud.

JZ - 3-25-2021 at 08:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Lee  


You think masks and distancing = pointless. That's the debate, amigo.



Regarding masks, I wear a mask pretty dutifully. Even had one on at the outdoor dog park today. I have wondered how much it really does help and suspect it's much less than some have suggested.

Note cases are down 29% since Texas eliminated the mask mandate two weeks ago. Remember, just because the govt. doesn't have a mask mandate, doesn't mean ppl won't wear masks. Florida never had a mask mandate. They allowed ppl and businesses to make their own choices.



BajaTed - 3-26-2021 at 06:46 AM

New hypothesis:
Survival of the fittest and survival of the altered world.
What would Chucky D. think if he were around today?

Lee - 3-26-2021 at 09:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  

Regarding masks, I wear a mask pretty dutifully. Even had one on at the outdoor dog park today. I have wondered how much it really does help and suspect it's much less than some have suggested.

Note cases are down 29% since Texas eliminated the mask mandate two weeks ago. Remember, just because the govt. doesn't have a mask mandate, doesn't mean ppl won't wear masks. Florida never had a mask mandate. They allowed ppl and businesses to make their own choices.


Ditto on the masks.

At a supermarket recently in Flagstaff, where posted signs on the front door read ''masks required,'' I saw a woman shopping with couple kids in tow, with an angry expression. Like, ''I dare you to tell me to put on a mask.'' Nobody said anything to her.

Misdirected anger. Tell some to wear a mask, they'll punch you.

Any guesses whether these are conservatives or liberals?

All the same to me. Wear a mask or don't. Just stay away from me.

Another thing about optional masks, or lockdowns. People aren't responsible. Just what I see.

Skipjack Joe - 3-26-2021 at 09:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by Lee  


You think masks and distancing = pointless. That's the debate, amigo.



Regarding masks, I wear a mask pretty dutifully. Even had one on at the outdoor dog park today. I have wondered how much it really does help and suspect it's much less than some have suggested.

Note cases are down 29% since Texas eliminated the mask mandate two weeks ago. Remember, just because the govt. doesn't have a mask mandate, doesn't mean ppl won't wear masks. Florida never had a mask mandate. They allowed ppl and businesses to make their own choices.





This is a totally meaningless graph. You may as well label when you ate ice cream last year and look for relationships. This is a gnukid type of post to show something.

When cases go up you’re asked to wear a mask and when they come down you’re told you don’t have to. You’ve got the horse before the cart. Masks don’t CAUSE numbers to go up. They’re the RESULT of numbers going up.

Keep company with gnukid and you’ll go far.

Tioloco - 3-26-2021 at 10:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by Lee  


You think masks and distancing = pointless. That's the debate, amigo.



Regarding masks, I wear a mask pretty dutifully. Even had one on at the outdoor dog park today. I have wondered how much it really does help and suspect it's much less than some have suggested.

Note cases are down 29% since Texas eliminated the mask mandate two weeks ago. Remember, just because the govt. doesn't have a mask mandate, doesn't mean ppl won't wear masks. Florida never had a mask mandate. They allowed ppl and businesses to make their own choices.





This is a totally meaningless graph. You may as well label when you ate ice cream last year and look for relationships. This is a gnukid type of post to show something.

When cases go up you’re asked to wear a mask and when they come down you’re told you don’t have to. You’ve got the horse before the cart. Masks don’t CAUSE numbers to go up. They’re the RESULT of numbers going up.

Keep company with gnukid and you’ll go far.


I have worn a mask the last year as required for certain establishments. I have also seen no actual evidence that a cloth face covering does anything to prevent transmission. I also received both vaccinations and am of the belief that if you want to wear a mask great. If not, great. Why do so many here feel they need to be the Covid police? I dont see these same folks worrying about the mass influx of illegal aliens pouring into USA without being tested.... What gives?

Bajabus - 3-26-2021 at 10:27 AM



Untitled.jpg - 143kB

I added some data points to make the graph more interesting.

David K - 3-26-2021 at 10:37 AM

The majority of Americans are over this, or will be soon... Wearing a mask is not the new normal, and no amount of government arm twisting is going to change opinions... especially with the cases dropping so greatly.

Yes, I wear it in public... call it civil duty, but it is really only effective worn by any sick, coughing people, to keep their spit to themselves. With all this social distancing and hand sanitizing, who is even getting a cold now? The past year has been the most healthy year for me I can remember!

A few love the George Orwell 1984 world of big government, knowing all. I have seen them, driving inside their cars, alone, and still wearing a mask... :rolleyes:

Tioloco - 3-26-2021 at 10:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  


A few love the George Orwell 1984 world of big government, knowing all. I have seen them, driving inside their cars, alone, and still wearing a mask... :rolleyes:


yep totally ridiculous!

JZ - 3-26-2021 at 10:53 AM

Researchers create nose-only COVID-19 masks to wear while eating

https://nypost.com/2021/03/24/researchers-produce-nose-only-...


This is how I picture Goat.

David K - 3-26-2021 at 12:04 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  


A few love the George Orwell 1984 world of big government, knowing all. I have seen them, driving inside their cars, alone, and still wearing a mask... :rolleyes:


yep totally ridiculous!


I was going to add whose bumper stickers was on their cars... but Doug said no no no! ;):smug::lol:

Skipjack Joe - 3-26-2021 at 12:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  
Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by Lee  


You think masks and distancing = pointless. That's the debate, amigo.



Regarding masks, I wear a mask pretty dutifully. Even had one on at the outdoor dog park today. I have wondered how much it really does help and suspect it's much less than some have suggested.

Note cases are down 29% since Texas eliminated the mask mandate two weeks ago. Remember, just because the govt. doesn't have a mask mandate, doesn't mean ppl won't wear masks. Florida never had a mask mandate. They allowed ppl and businesses to make their own choices.





This is a totally meaningless graph. You may as well label when you ate ice cream last year and look for relationships. This is a gnukid type of post to show something.

When cases go up you’re asked to wear a mask and when they come down you’re told you don’t have to. You’ve got the horse before the cart. Masks don’t CAUSE numbers to go up. They’re the RESULT of numbers going up.

Keep company with gnukid and you’ll go far.


I have worn a mask the last year as required for certain establishments. I have also seen no actual evidence that a cloth face covering does anything to prevent transmission. I also received both vaccinations and am of the belief that if you want to wear a mask great. If not, great. Why do so many here feel they need to be the Covid police? I dont see these same folks worrying about the mass influx of illegal aliens pouring into USA without being tested.... What gives?


Why? Because what you do affects me. When you don't wear a mask you infect others. It's you right to decide your own fate but it's not your right to decide mine.

I don't see what this has to do with border crossings.

JZ - 3-26-2021 at 12:29 PM

You lockdown supporters are just crazy.

Example, 5,631. Just got to watch my kid play lacrosse for the first time in CA in a year.

Meanwhile, a majority (35) of states safety played HS football in the fall.

So much of this trauma that was put on kids and families was totally unnecessary.


[Edited on 3-26-2021 by JZ]

Skipjack Joe - 3-26-2021 at 12:35 PM

JZ, repeating a lie over and over again will not make it true. You need to support your case and your graph does not.

Lee - 3-26-2021 at 12:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
You lockdown supporters are just crazy.

Example, 5,631. Just got to watch my kid play lacrosse for the first time in CA in a year.

Meanwhile, a majority (35) of states safety played HS football in the fall.

So much of this trauma that was put on kids and families was totally unnecessary.


[Edited on 3-26-2021 by JZ]


True. The trauma was shared. Unfortunately, California has problems that supersede the virus. Newsom is an easy target so blame him for all the problems.

I don't read solutions from anyone here for lockdown alternatives.

Someone said big government should butt out and adults will be responsible for themselves. I'm thinking the opposite though I'm not a government proponent.

Tell me my impression is wrong. People, esp. in California, the epicenter for the virus, are absolutely not responsible for anything, esp. taking the virus seriously. They are a lot of things -- responsible is not one.

So, solutions? Yeah, California, where it's every man for himself. Anyone living in California after the pandemic is living in the wrong state. Your problems aren't going away. You're a divided State -- like the US right now.

We are a country of laws. You don't have to agree with them, and you don't need to live here. Move to Baja where mandatory masks are enforced, at least in Loreto.

surabi - 3-26-2021 at 04:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe  


Why? Because what you do affects me. When you don't wear a mask you infect others. It's you right to decide your own fate but it's not your right to decide mine.

I don't see what this has to do with border crossings.


It's called cognitive dissonance and deflection. Very common among these types.

The types who don't care how what they do might affect others. They demand their "right to freedom" to do whatever suits them. If you don't like it, they advise you to go hide in your basement.

This is why the pandemic still rages, with thousands more infections daily and the accompanying death count.

[Edited on 3-26-2021 by surabi]

John Harper - 3-26-2021 at 04:33 PM

Don't forget they also ridicule and mock those who chose their own path of dealing with this pandemic by wearing masks. "Freedom" for them, but it's not okay, or somehow stupid, that others exercise their "freedom" of choice to wear a mask, for whatever reason. Interesting.

What's so wrong with someone wearing a mask while driving? It's not as lame as wearing a hat IMHO. Does it really bother you that much? Why does it bother you? Does it infringe on your rights? Shouldn't you be watching the road anyway?

Do what you want to do, and let others have the same freedom. Just be responsible citizens, and if a mask is required/requested, wear the flocker, sit down, and shut up. Think about others, for once. It's a dead horse, let it go. We've heard your crap for over a year now.

John


[Edited on 3-26-2021 by John Harper]

JZ - 3-26-2021 at 05:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  


What's so wrong with someone wearing a mask while driving? It's not as lame as wearing a hat IMHO. Does it really bother you that much? Why does it bother you? Does it infringe on your rights? Shouldn't you be watching the road anyway?

Do what you want to do, and let others have the same freedom. Just be responsible citizens, and if a mask is required/requested, wear the flocker, sit down, and shut up. Think about others, for once. It's a dead horse, let it go. We've heard your crap for over a year now.

John


[Edited on 3-26-2021 by John Harper]


If only there was a word for it.... hmmm, virtue signaling?

Bajabus - 3-26-2021 at 05:28 PM

I have on occasion elected to not take off my mask while driving because I was too lazy to take it off between short stops and I didn't need a sip of my Ballena that bad, it was still cold. It's a hassle in many respects no doubt but WTF why not as a simple courtesy and on the off chance. In many respects I don't mind encouraging die hard non mask wearers to congregate mask less in their social circles. I think it would adjust the gene pool towards my liking. Terrible thing to say as a bleeding heart liberal dem but there it is.

[Edited on 27-3-2021 by Bajabus]

AKgringo - 3-26-2021 at 07:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho  
Quote: Originally posted by Lee  
Move to Baja where mandatory masks are enforced, at least in Loreto.

You happen to know how they enforce that?

I.e. you know of anyone who has been smitten by the authorities because of that?


If there is enforcement, it is directed at the business that allows un-masked customers. Campestre Maranatha caters to RVs, and campers, but a large part of their business is hosting events.

They were visited by the police after one of the groups posted numerous videos of partying without masks. The camp employees wore masks, and chairs were set up with the required spacing (1.5 meters) but that was also ignored.

[Edited on 3-27-2021 by AKgringo]

surabi - 3-26-2021 at 08:22 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by John Harper  


What's so wrong with someone wearing a mask while driving? It's not as lame as wearing a hat IMHO. Does it really bother you that much? Why does it bother you? Does it infringe on your rights? Shouldn't you be watching the road anyway?

Do what you want to do, and let others have the same freedom. Just be responsible citizens, and if a mask is required/requested, wear the flocker, sit down, and shut up. Think about others, for once. It's a dead horse, let it go. We've heard your crap for over a year now.

John


[Edited on 3-26-2021 by John Harper]


If only there was a word for it.... hmmm, virtue signaling?



Adjusting one's behavior, even if it doesn't jive with their own personal views, for the common good of all, is actually called social responsibility.

Hard concept for some to understand, apparently.

RFClark - 3-26-2021 at 08:58 PM

This week’s chart, lowest level since 9/25/20!

01E3AFA8-E112-4C2A-A7C4-EE98D310BBDC.jpeg - 58kB
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