BajaNomad

New Sand Driving How-To Video (with a 2WD Van) is well done:

David K - 3-2-2024 at 12:25 PM

This applies to 4x4 drivers just as well...

From Alex:


JZ - 3-2-2024 at 12:57 PM

Decent video.

Important to know how to connect the kinetic rope between vehicles. They can be very dangerous if not done properly.

Know the tides for the area. Stay out of the surf zone, especially in areas with big tidal swings.

David K - 3-2-2024 at 01:05 PM

Well, and just don't get stuck in the first place! Deflate your tires sufficiently to have floatation instead of digging in. Harald is big on 10 psi for dirt roads and less for sand as needed (BFG All Terrain T/As).
So many of us try to save the work of inflating by either not deflating or deflating enough. I have been guilty of that! When stuck, I always got myself out by deflating more... easy peezy!

JZ - 3-2-2024 at 01:25 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Well, and just don't get stuck in the first place!


The rope is generally to pull someone else out.

AKgringo - 3-2-2024 at 01:46 PM

Although it is not the same as traction boards, a couple of strips of carpet can come in handy. They can either lay flat somewhere, or roll up and shoved out of the way. They can also be handy in front of a tent, or next to your rig.

I have found no downside to running mud terrain tires on the beach, unless you are spinning them, in which case you are screwed anyway!

The hopping the van did toward the end is why I hate leaf springs!

That wide shovel he carries is good while you are next to the stuck rig, but I carry a long handled narrow blade (like a clam shovel) so I can get under the rig and get clearance around the frame and/or axels.

mtgoat666 - 3-2-2024 at 02:25 PM

It’s generally illegal to drive on beaches in mexico… just saying…

it is usually easier to just park above the beach, and walk the last 5O yards.

mtgoat666 - 3-2-2024 at 02:29 PM

If you dampen the sand, you increase the cohesion and angle of friction. The millenial van lifer was silly to show digging out of dry sand when he was stuck next to ocean. He should have just got a bucket and wet the sand instead of digging out of dry sand.

Also, those traction boards are silly. Those van lifers got floor mats in their car, just throw the floor mats under the tire.
Some of those van lifers travel with astroturf to make a patio, that would work as a traction device too.

[Edited on 3-2-2024 by mtgoat666]

Don Pisto - 3-2-2024 at 02:42 PM

make those bodyguards get out and push! :lol:

mtgoat666 - 3-2-2024 at 03:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Don Pisto  
make those bodyguards get out and push! :lol:


Make the wife, kids, MIL and bougie dogs push too!

Sometimes a little muscle from your friends will get you out faster than fiddling with air pressure, ropes, maxx tracks and youtubes (assuming you know to stop spinning tires before digging a hole until your axle rests on the ground…)

4x4abc - 3-2-2024 at 11:46 PM

except airing down (and he did say how much) everything else was wrong (momentum, spinning tire etc).

Maderita - 3-2-2024 at 11:53 PM

That is a nicely edited video presentation, packed with useful information. Overall, the narrator is mostly correct. He should have started with a few caveats: Don't try driving loose sand without a locking diff. Don't try driving through deep sand if there is not a 4x4 with you, or nearby, to help. Stay above the high tide line, or risk losing your vehicle.

Not every beach is without hills or dunes, wide enough to make gentle turns, or without drop-offs. Most often, there is a sandy descent to access a beach or arroyo. That will necessitate climbing back out. Don't drive into a situation if you aren't certain that you can drive out.

I don't wish to diss Alex's instructional video, as it is quite good. Many of the points are subject to debate, so I will start. What may be good advice for the novice may not apply to the experienced off-roader.

At 2:55 about tire pressure: 
The PSI numbers he uses for that van with those tires seems about right. The tires have a wide, rounded, bulge. My BFG KO2 AT tires on a 1-ton van will will start to buckle/crease at anything less than that, which is definitely not good for the tires. The lighter SUVs, mid-size trucks, Jeeps, should be able to air down to 10psi without a problem.


3:10 "This rim right here will hold a bead down to zero PSI and you can probably drive on it."
Yes you could, and rim cut the tire, destroying it. And no, that rim will not hold a bead at 2 PSI.

3:26  He advocates driving around on sand at 5 PSI and states that the tire will stay on the rim. 
Certainly not with that heavy rig. He has OEM wheels, not aftermarket beadlocks. Perhaps he could get lucky and keep the bead seated if going if going slow and not turning aggressively. I've lost a bead numerous times in the dunes at 10 PSI in a Jeep half the weight of his van. 

At 4:26, he said, "...if you have a 1/2-to or 3/4 ton pickup, it may have come with a locker."
There is a fair chance that a 2WD pickup has an OEM limited-slip rear diff, but unlikely that it is an OEM locker. A few exceptions may include the Toyota TRD, Chevy/GMC with the G80 diff, Ford Raptor...

5:45   "...one of the biggest detriments to your momentum is spinning your tires." 
That seems to be the oft repeated "conventional wisdom", maybe dating back to the Model T (20 hp) or AMC flathead 6 (90 hp). With modern trucks producing much higher horsepower and torque, that advice is obsolete. 
I won't try to argue it here. All you have to do is look at the myriad action videos on sand dunes. That same conventional wisdom promoted bald, or nearly-bald, street tires. That may have been sage advice when powered by a weak engine. All-terrain tires work well in sand, and more aggressive mud-terrain tires when there is sufficient power to spin them. 

6:03  About turning: "...If you are going too fast, you're going to start pushing sand." 
That advice may be true for the conservative driver. Going in to the turn fast, pitching the rear end sideways and exiting the turn at full-throttle with the rear locking diff hooking up, is another approach. I'm not one to linger in the turn while praying that I don't get stuck. The slightest turn increases the forward resistance and slows momentum dramatically; it's like throwing out an anchor.

7:45  "First, and the very best tool to have is a shovel." 
8:30  "...second biggest getting unstuck asset that you can carry with you... traction boards."
Well, to each their own. I duned 4x4s and sand rails for a couple decades. Never carried, needed, used, or wanted a shovel or traction boards. For self-extraction, a 48" or 60" Hi-Lift jack with a 1-1/2" thick x 14"-18" plywood base. A much more compact hydraulic jack under the spring perch will substitute. You're tires have dug holes: Lift the rear of the truck and pile a mound of sand under the rear tires. In less time than your friends can down a beer, you will drive "downhill" and be unstuck.

10:20  Kinetic rope is better than a tow strap. (paraphrasing)
I don't buy the marketing hype and new term "kinetic rope", nor the outrageous prices. A nylon tow strap or "snatch strap" stretches under load and accomplish the job. Note that polyester is not as dynamic (stretchy), therefore, not a good substitute. I've used retired nylon climbing ropes, 11mm, kernmantle construction since the 1970s for extracting stuck vehicles. The original "kinetic ropes" lol. Rather than "kinetic", climbers call them "dynamic" ropes, which are made to absorb a fall. A fall on a "static" (polyester) rope will maim or kill. A single 11mm strand works to extricate a light or slightly stuck vehicle. Motorhomes required three strands of 11mm on San Felipe beaches. 

11:30   "If you are stuck, dig trenches out in front of your tires."
Reasonable advice if you failed to carry a Hi-Lift jack. Use caution and common-sense with a Hi-Lift. 

14:28  Lots of axle wrap, aka: spring wrap, hence the bouncing, on that rig. Probably weak rear shocks are a part of the problem. Fox 2.0 emulsion shocks would ameliorate some of that. Adding a traction bar is the ultimate solution. Agile Offroad in Santee can order the Fox shocks with the correct proportioning for weight of the vehicle. https://agileoffroad.com/ 

Let the rebuttals begin! jajaja

mtgoat666 - 3-3-2024 at 06:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Maderita  
He should have started with a few caveats: Don't try driving loose sand without a locking diff. Don't try driving through deep sand if there is not a 4x4 with you, or nearby, to help. Stay above the high tide line, or risk losing your vehicle.


I have successfully broken your rules, and survived! You don't need 4x4 and locker. Many 2wd vehicles do ok in sand by just turning off traction control.

The van lifer guy was making a vid about driving overloaded 2wd van on sand, a common van amongst van lifers is 2wd…

Sometimes you gotta take risks…

AKgringo - 3-3-2024 at 08:36 AM

My all time favorite beach for camping is six miles south of Deep Creek AK. The tide on my most recent trip was over 23 feet high, and -3.5 low.

At high tide there are several places where it comes all the way up to the base of the cliffs, or it is loose sand traps between the cliffs.

Low tide it is mostly smooth sailing with occasional traps if you are hugging the waterline! You definitely do not want to get stuck between tides!

Tire choice depends on your load too!

AKgringo - 3-3-2024 at 11:36 AM

I am currently running BFG TA KO2s, 265/75 load range E tires on my Isuzu Trooper. Although I don't need a real truck tire, I went with that size over the softer 265/70 tires that were on it to get a slightly taller tire with better sidewall protection from Baja thorns.

I agree with Maderita that they should not be run as a low PSI very far, or fast because the stiffer sidewalls do heat up faster than the P rated SUV tires do.

An analogy that comes to mind is that you would choose a different kind of glove working with wire and rebar than you would driving nails or screws, and yet another kind for concrete.

I am happy with the way the KO2s are wearing, and have had no flats, but they just don't have the grip that the more flexible tires did.

One more thing, rubber compound matters. I have run both Goodyear Wranglers, and BFG tires in the past, and would choose BFG for long life, but Wranglers for grip in wet or icy conditions.

JZ - 3-3-2024 at 11:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
If you dampen the sand, you increase the cohesion and angle of friction. The millenial van lifer was silly to show digging out of dry sand when he was stuck next to ocean. He should have just got a bucket and wet the sand instead of digging out of dry sand.

Also, those traction boards are silly. Those van lifers got floor mats in their car, just throw the floor mats under the tire.
Some of those van lifers travel with astroturf to make a patio, that would work as a traction device too.

[Edited on 3-2-2024 by mtgoat666]


Or instead of taking your little bucket back and forth to the ocean you could just unrack your 3 ton offroad jack and lift the truck up in less than 1 minute. :light:

JZ - 3-3-2024 at 11:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Maderita  

5:45   "...one of the biggest detriments to your momentum is spinning your tires." 
That seems to be the oft repeated "conventional wisdom", maybe dating back to the Model T (20 hp) or AMC flathead 6 (90 hp). With modern trucks producing much higher horsepower and torque, that advice is obsolete. 
I won't try to argue it here. All you have to do is look at the myriad action videos on sand dunes. That same conventional wisdom promoted bald, or nearly-bald, street tires. That may have been sage advice when powered by a weak engine. All-terrain tires work well in sand, and more aggressive mud-terrain tires when there is sufficient power to spin them. 



The 1st thing that came to mind was watching that Ram TRX pull the camper out of the mud at burning man when everyone else couldn't even get their vehicles out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaltpp08yNM

My Experiences after 50 years of sand driving finds...

David K - 3-3-2024 at 12:37 PM

You guys are a tough lot... at least Alex (like Harald on his website) made an attempt to educate or at least show how he can cross sand in his heavy 2WD van. Forget his errors about factory lockers or one tire spinning open diffs (but that is what is observed)... the point is sand driving...

It is all about air pressure.

Long ago, a family group from Vista, CA used to drive their big motorhomes right out onto the deep, bottomless sand of Shell Island.. even a big Lincoln sedan... I was amazed... and had to meet them. No 4WD, just the largest tires the motorhomes could have with air pressure dropped.

Get whatever tires you want, but get the biggest ones that will fit your rig without rubbing. Get ones with a wide (or tall) sidewall; not the bling, skinny sidewall, wide tread tires.

Bald, non-aggressive, highway tires actually work best... because you want to float on, not dig into the sand. Of course we want good tires for Baja off roading, so all terrain style is the most common. If they have a 3-ply sidewall (BFG), the pressure will need to be less in order to achieve floatation.

Mud-terrain, aggressive off road tires also need more air removed to float on sand. Ask me how I know! The mud terrain tires look great, but in sand they became my truck's "grave diggers" at least at the pressure my previous all terrain tires floated at (15 psi). At 8-10 psi is what the 'grave diggers' (Cooper Discoverer STT) would float at.

I am now on my third set of Hankook DynaPro ATM tires, (265/75-16") which have been the best all around tire for my Tacomas: Quiet highway driving, great in rocks, mud, snow, but excellent in sand. They float at 18 psi!

I have never needed a winch, a pull, traction boards, rescue mats (carpet), or a big shovel when in sand. If I begin to bog down or have tire spin, I stop and let more air out, and drive away. Yes, if you do dig in, clear away any built up sand from in front of the tires, so there is no resistance to rolling ahead.

It is all about air pressure.

Naturally, a fast air pump will get you back on the hard roads faster... I have had good luck with the relatively inexpensive MV-50 pump. Any that clips directly to the battery will be faster than ones that use a cigarette lighter... three times faster. My MV-50 adds 6 psi:min. to my truck tires. (about 3 minutes per tire, 15-18 psi up to 34 psi) >> https://superflowair.com/products/mv-50-air-compressor-1



4x4abc - 3-3-2024 at 12:41 PM

dynamic/kinetic rope fail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrIR_4IPIbk&t=617s

stillnbaja - 3-3-2024 at 12:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
dynamic/kinetic rope fail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrIR_4IPIbk&t=617s


wow! and be careful where you pull from.

David K - 3-3-2024 at 01:03 PM

You don't need a pull (or a rope) if you take out more of the tire's air... SIMPLE!

JZ - 3-3-2024 at 01:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by stillnbaja  
Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
dynamic/kinetic rope fail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrIR_4IPIbk&t=617s


wow! and be careful where you pull from.


That is what I assumed happened. If you watch the video, it was actually a soft-shackle that failed. So, it was just the rope that came back and smashed through the window, not metal.

That Bronco was way too stuck and they pulled way too hard. Still, it's eye opening to think that just the rope coming back could do that much damage. I've never seen that.

surfhat - 3-3-2024 at 01:44 PM

Right on David. Being aware of your limitations, is the best advice anyone can offer.

Every traction consideration is up for each of us to to keep in mind.

There are many options to consider when we, for the most part, don't have lockers to rely upon.

A onetime, thankfully, of sticking myself with a Ford 4wd van buried up to the chassis in soft sand, I was rewarded with getting myself out of the hole I dug by trying to turn around with the four five feet long Marsden Matting pieces I brought with me.

We now have the plastic traction pieces to do the same without the weight of those old rusty steel traction devices.

I have to give this poster kudos for going where I would not with my 2wd Sprinter, even with a traction defeat button on the dash that sort of, acts as a traction helper when you need it.

Not quite as purposeful locker by design, but it comes close without resorting to paying $5,000 for a real rear locker set up.

If this rear locker had been on the market when I bought this 06 in 2010, I would have jumped on it.

Still, this 2wd van on the beach is a great example of how far some forethought can take you without 4wd to rely upon.

4x4abc - 3-3-2024 at 03:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David K  
You don't need a pull (or a rope) if you take out more of the tire's air... SIMPLE!


the word hasn't gotten around to many of the "experts"

AKgringo - 3-3-2024 at 03:39 PM

Because I drive off road almost every day, I leave my KO2s at 25 lbs all the time unless I have a longer drive, then I air up!

I just got back from checking for storm damage on my property, and I did well driving fairly steep roads with a few inches of snow on slick dirt.

David K - 3-3-2024 at 04:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
You don't need a pull (or a rope) if you take out more of the tire's air... SIMPLE!


the word hasn't gotten around to many of the "experts"


You and I will keep up the good fight, right Harald!? :light:

4x4abc - 3-3-2024 at 05:47 PM

I am ready to give up
common sense (stupidity) is hard to beat
people want to believe in something
science doesn't offer you that feature