Iflyfish
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An exciting way to help small businesses
A topic by Baja Bernie on the Pay Day Loan industry in Mexico. There was a post that money lending is not commonly done by financial institutions in
Mexico. I don't know much about that issue, but wanted to share a concept I ran into a while back with Nomads. I thought it worth a thread of it's
own.
Check out this exciting lending strategy for third world countries. Allows individuals, like us, to support people in third world countries who want
to start or build their businesses via direct person to person loans.
http://www.kiva.org/
The concept won a Nobel prize.
There may be other organizations like this. I don't have a pony in this race, I just wanted to share what appears to me to be an exciting, positive
and creative way of addressing poverty and supporting creativity and generativity as well as providing individuals a way to invest and feel engaged
and involved in what they are investing in.
Ifyfish
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
The concept won a Nobel prize.
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Kiva?
I think that micro loans/Grameen Bank won a Nobel.
Kiva is a way too Hollywood for me. I don't need to broadcast my loan portfolio on the internet. It's elitist and feels creepy.
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Iflyfish
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You are right about the micro loan/Grameen Bank and the Nobel. This is the concept behind Kiva. I was not familiar with Grameen Bank, I appreciate
your sharing this with me/us.
Kiva was the first group of this kind I became aware of. I really like the concept. I do not like the poverty I see around the world. The issue that I
see is how do we redistribute wealth. It is hard to just donate to organizations who may have a great deal of overhead and help with handouts. I am
not opposed to handouts, I just think that there are limits in that sort of approach to poverty.
There is no need to "broadcast" ones loan portfolio on the internet, there is an option to do it anonomously, which would be my choice.
The concept is direct person to person micro loans for enterprising individuals who want to grow their business. I like that concept.
An example of this sort of micro loan is a Mexican Taxi driver who wants a loan to upgrade his taxi. Small amount, great potential to help him do
this. Or a person with a small fruit stand that needs a better location or improvement in their storeage etc.
I have no vested interest in Kiva, I now see that there are other options of how one might participate in micro loans. Thanks for sharing this
information.
Iflyfish
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Don Alley
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Interesting stuff.
Grameen solicits donations for non-specific loans, apparently your money is donated and repayments are recycled, not returned to the donor.
Kiva solicits loans; repayments are returned to the original loaner who has the option of using it for other loans, or taking the money. Kiva loans
are for specific people you can chose on the website, and administered by a micro-loan partner. Looks a little more hands on and a little more fun.
There are a few applicants in Mexico but none that specifically say they are in Baja. But if someone knows a Baja resident that needs small capital,
perhaps they could direct them to a Mexican partner with a pledge of support through Kiva, and get them listed.
Not entirely capitalistic, as there is no mention of interest income. But seems more interesting that Sally Struthers. 
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shari
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Mood: there is no reality except the one contained within us "Herman Hesse"
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I like the idea of a more personal approach...for example...the fellow here in asuncion who makes awesome abalone stuff and bone carvings etc....he
could really be successful with more equipment, a bucket of resin, better tools, paints, bits etc. Iflyfishers know Sergio too and can vouch for his
talent....or another example is the old fellow here who makes lovely tortilla wood presses and sells em for $10...half the store price...he never has
enough materials and so I buy him formica so he can make some, then I buy them from him to sell to friends who come down...but with say $100, this guy
would be in business...his presses are always in demand but he has no materials to make them!!! Or the caballero who makes shoes up in the sierra de
san fransisco...I'm sure he could use some stuff to help him...there are tons of folks who have lots of talent and great ideas but lack a a tiny bit
of capital to get them off the ground. Walk into any village and I bet you would find someone who would benefit from a small loan or gift...loaning
money here is usually very bad investment as you rarely get it back! But maybe you could trade money for the products they make...get them at a good
price and either resell them or use them as gifts etc. Hey maybe I'll start a website for all the amigos I have who could use help!
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Iflyfish
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I will contact Kiva and will discuss the issues you have raised. It would be wonderful to have a legitimate and secure way to invest in just the sort
of enterprises you are talking about in Baja, Shari. I will inquire if there is an agent in Baja. I believe there is a local agent who vets all
potential recipients of loans.
Don, I will also inquire about the issue of interest on the loans. I too like the fact that these are LOANS and not grants and that the investor is
repaid. Sally Struthers....good one! Too bad my gifts to Jimmy and Tami went to makeup 
Iflyfish
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Iflyfish
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I contacted Kiva and found out that they have local representatives who do the due dilegence for people requesting loans, set up accounts, vet
applicants, administer loans, collect payments etc. It looks like representatives require of applicants that they submit a business plan and
demonstrate some sort of rudimentary accounting process, which in an of itself is useful information to potential applicants. There is a process for
applying and qualifying for this position. Below is their first response. A more personal and specific response will follow.
Top 3 Questions about Kiva Partnerships
1. "What is a Kiva Field Partner?"
Kiva Field Partners are registered microfinance institutions which have passed Kiva.org's Due Diligence and entered into a partnership agreement with
Kiva.org. To learn more about Kiva.org's Due Diligence, go to:
http://kiva.org/app.php?page=about&action=diligence
2. "Why is Kiva.org not operating in [insert country]?"
We are working hard to expand our partnerships to all regions across the globe at a pace that is healthy for both our current partners and Kiva.org.
We are happy to receive your feedback on countries that you would like to loan to.
3. "Is Kiva.org a 501c3?"
Yes. Kiva.org has received tax-exempt status and is a 501c3 non-profit. Your donation to Kiva.org is tax-deductible.
So it looks like one could make a tax deductible "donation" in the form of a loan and write it off as long as you kept recycling the loan as it is
payed off.
The first thing I did was look for any Baja loan requests, I too found none. From this I conclude that there is not a representative yet in Baja.
There should be one! Wouldn't it be great to invest in small businesses like the ones Shari identified in the country we love? The jewler Shari talked
about is a real artist. He lacks a distribution system. He lacks tools. Native talent he has by the bucket full. He also is reliable and a man of his
word. I have no doubt there exist in every village and town in Baja people just like this.
Check out Kiva. If you have any interest in becoming involved please do so and let me know. I would like to provide what ever assistance I have
available to get Kiva going in the Baja. I however do not live there and it looks like a local representative is necessary.
Thanks for your interest. I will post further info as I get it.
Iflyfish
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Dave
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To me, Kiva is simply a venue where YUPPIES can feel good about themselves. Loan recipiants are demeaned. It's undignified.
How would you feel if the whole world knew I loaned you 50 bucks?
There are Grameen style banks in Mexico. You can donate online.
http://www.grameenfoundation.org/where_we_work/latin_america...
(But you won't get your picture posted in the lobby.)
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Don Alley
Super Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
To me, Kiva is simply a venue where YUPPIES can feel good about themselves. Loan recipiants are demeaned. It's undignified.
How would you feel if the whole world knew I loaned you 50 bucks?
There are Grameen style banks in Mexico. You can donate online.
http://www.grameenfoundation.org/where_we_work/latin_america...
(But you won't get your picture posted in the lobby.) |
Yuppie? Yippie? I was a Hippie. And a Trekkie.
I like the choices offered by Kiva. Choice is good. And I like that I can choose again wehn (if) the money is repaid. The Grameen approach is more
like Sally Struthers.
But you're right about the identity of the loaner. You won't see my name or picture connected with loans or charity.
But I might use the picture of that mullet guy again.
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Iflyfish
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Dave, speaking of demeaning, are you trying to insult and demean those people who wish to support people growing businesses in third world countries
thru an organization like Kiva?
If I like Kiva then that makes me a yuppie?
Are you name calling because you don't like with the way that the program is structured?
Yuppie is a derogatory word used to describe Young Upwardly Mobile Professionals. I am a 62 Year Old retired Social Worker. Maybe that makes me an
old retired Yuppie? Yuppies form our middle class. Anything that I can do to encourage them to invest in the third world in a way that lifts people
out of poverty is ok with me. Yuppies, Unite! Loan to the small fish in the pond!
Yuppies, help the guppies! I like that.
Post my picture in the lobby? I don't think so. It is not necessary to post any information on the site as a lender. If you read the material you
would know this. I don't however expect you to read further as you already are disgusted and I would not want you to further upset yourself.
I think that it is wonderful that you support the efforts of grameenfoundation.org. I hope that you contribute a lot to them. They deserve your
support, whether you are a YUPPIE or not.
The model of Kiva is different than Grameen in that there is a relationship between the lenders and the people who are receiving the loans. People can
indeed identify themselves on Kiva as lenders if they choose. Some people apparently like this. I notice that many do so. I would imagine that in this
increasingly impersonal world that many people want more real connection with other people around the world. I frankly would like to see more
individual Americans involved in a positive way in the lives of third world contries. We have sent enough bombs already. Especially at a time when the
USoA is at the lowest ebb in our history in terms of how we are seen in the world, God Bless any American who puts themselves out there to help those
in the world who have less than we do.
As to your judgement that the process is demeaning, I don't get that hit from reading the reports of the people who have received these loans. There
is something very impersonal and to some demeaning about interacting with a nameless, faceless bank who does not know you nor care to know you. I deal
with this way of banking on a regular basis in my US bank. Things did not used to be that way before my bank was purchased by a large conglomerate.
Things were more personal then.
There are now hundreds if not thousands who are providing loans to individuals through Kiva. Many people take satisfaction in having knowledge of how
their money is being invested. Many like the feeling of being of direct assistance to others rather than sending money to a nameless, faceless
beaurocracy. Some like to contribute to charitable organizations like HOPE, Mercy Corps etc. and not have any direct relationship with the people who
receive the grants or services. To each his or her own.
Dave, I implore you, please do not initiate a loan to a third world enterprise through Kiva. Please donate to
http://www.grameenfoundation.org/where_we_work/latin_america...
I hope you donate a lot to http://www.grameenfoundation.org/where_we_work/latin_america...
I hope all Nomads either donate to http://www.grameenfoundation.org/where_we_work/latin_america...
or to http://kiva.org
These are organizations worthy of our support.
Iflyfishwhennotenjoyingmyprivilagedpositionasanagedretiredyuppie/hippie
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
there is a relationship between the lenders and the people who are receiving the loans. People can indeed identify themselves on Kiva as lenders if
they choose. Some people apparently like this. I notice that many do so. |
Probably why Kiva works. Posting a picture and bio is as effective as hanging a donor recognition plaque...probably better. 
Hey...if stroking someone's ego helps to pry open a wallet I'm all for it. Let's just call it for what it is.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
As to your judgement that the process is demeaning, I don't get that hit from reading the reports of the people who have received these loans.
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Well I doubt they would complain much. They're the one's getting the cash.
My first question:
How would you feel if the whole world knew I lent you 50 bucks?
And this:
What if, as a borrower, your bank published your picture and bio for all the world to see?
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Iflyfish
Ultra Nomad
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Dave,
You asked two questions, I assume they are not rhetorical.
1. "How would you feel if the whole world knew I lent you 50 bucks?"
I would not presume to know how I would feel in the context we are talking about. Our context significantly affects how we feel about ourselves and
what we are experiencing. Your question would require me to be an entrepreneur living in or near poverty in a third world country to know the answer
to this question. I am a sixty two, (today is my birthday) year old retired Social Worker who lives in the USofA. I have grown up on a farm in North
Dakota, spent my youth in a suburban home in the Bay area in California, lived my adult life in Oregon raising a family. How could I know what the
experience of acquiring wealth to grow a business in the third world would feel like?
I can only speculate what the experience of going through a process of applying for a loan, learning about business practices in the process, waiting
for the outcome and then finally receiving the money would be like. When I have applied for a loan in the past it has felt very good to have the money
in my hands.
In the first place I would have had my business and a photo of myself posted on the internet, I might feel proud enough about that simple act to post
a copy by my cash box. I might feel proud of having "rich" first world contacts and supporters and brag about it. Fifty dollars or the equivilant in
my local currency might be a lot of money and since it is available from no other source I might feel like I had won the lottery. I might feel proud
to have been smarter and better connected than the person in the booth next to mine who will live out their life in the same way that their
progenetors did. I might now be on the verge of seeing my dreams come true, see my children better off than I or my parents ever were. If I was a
complex person with mixed feelings about acquiring a loan, or doing the hard work required to repay the loan, had been given a hard time about getting
one, been subjected to the jealousy of others, I might have negative feelings about receiving the loan.
As you can see, the answer to your question is so context related as to be impossible to answer with certainty.
2. "What if, as a borrower, your bank published your picture and bio for all the world to see?"
That's called advertising.
I would refer you to question #1. above and ask you to apply the same reasoning.
You refer to the amount $50 in your post. That is a huge amount of money in many contexts. It looks like most Kiva loans are between $500 and $1,000.
That might seem like a million bucks to the recipients. If you will loan me a million, I would be happy to have both of our pictures on the front page
of any paper or magazine of your choosing. I would even settle for a profile shot on National Review for that amount.
Iflyfish
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Dave
Elite Nomad
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R U nuts?
Allow me to rephrase:
Publicizing the fact that I lent you 50 bucks means, "You owe me 50 dollars."
It is a debt...Nothing to celebrate. Nothing to get dressed up in your Sunday best and get your picture taken for...Certainly nothing to share with
the world...
Until now. 
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Diver
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Starting to feel a little like "Off Topic" in here !!
I think the big difference with these loans VS other loans is the recpient.
I would think that most of these recipients have never had the opportunity to have a loan. They have never garnered enough respect or collateral to
even apply.
I could see that when they are picked as a recipient, it might be a proud and happy time for them. When looking at a life of certain sameness and
relative poverty and out of nowhere, a loan is offered that would give you the opportunity to better yourself, I can see where a celebration would be
fitting. Especially if you gain the loan above other local competition and with the obvious confidence and support of the idea by the lender.
I could also imagine a poverty stricken man from, um, Kansas City, who might be stuck in a life of poverty, desperately trying to support his family
with no hope in site. I could see where maybe this poor guy had some great talent, um, like running a deli, but had no hope of ever owning one.
I could see where if someone came and offered this man enough money at a low interest rate to open his own deli, raise his family from poverty and
potentially realize his dreams................he might just keep sweeping his dirt floor without a smile.
Sorry Dave, I couldn't resist.
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Iflyfish
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The point of this whole thread was to let people know that there is a creative, new way to directly invest that directly helps people start and grow
their businesses, it is called micro lending.
I started this thread after reading another thread about predatory lending practices that are starting to emerge in Mexico, hoping to present another
alternative.
There are people in mainland Mexico who have applied for these loans.
It appears that there is not yet a representative for Kiva in Baja where people like Shari has mentioned, and I have met, can get a loan like this. I
am in the process of finding out more information about how this might happen.
I hope that this dialogue has accomplished the end of raising awareness of micro lending and ways that you and I, if we choose, can invest in helping
others build their small businesses.
Iflyfishandamayuppiehippienutcasepublicityhoundwithtoomuchtimeonmyhands
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