Dave
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Latin America's informal economy
Interesting and thought provoking article reprinted in today's Union-Tribune.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/columnists/andres_...
Hernando de Soto is currently advising the Mexican government on how to reform it's economy. Any guess as to how this will play out?
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Bajabus
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Mood: My friends..it's good.
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that's a very accurate portrayal of the current state of affairs. Here in baja it's terrible. I have been running a buisness for 7 years and I used
to think that it would get better but thats not true it has gotten worst. I have just about come to the conclusion that only gringo buisnesses pay
taxes and are required to obey labor laws. Ok I know that some larger mexican firms do but hardly any. This year it has gotten really horrible. Now
we are require to file monthly with hacienda, not only that but it must be done electronically that means that your govt lic. accountant which you
must have by law needs your pin code to your account to do so. I balked and she said that what I could do is open another account and just deposit
whatever amount needs to be paid in taxes. Ok sure so now I have to open another account with another minimum and more service fees and more
headaches/paperwork. The my bank Banorte notified me that I will be charged 4 dollars for every 1,000 I deposit into my dollar account, a transaction
fee for every transaction at the teller window, 52 pesos for each checkbook and 5.2 pesos for each check I write. This on an account that they pay
.25% interest. They want to charge me for depositing money with them. I just about crapped my pants.. I asked the guys at the local PEMEX if the
get paid double time on sunday or on holidays when they worked (like I am required to do with my 2 workers) and they looked at me like I was nuts.
Lets not even get into severance pay and what you have to go thru to dismiss a worker that is cheating you. On top of that all the permits that you
have to renew anually and you quickly realize that it's become a nightmare down here. Unless you are willing to perpetually do the mordida dance
fuggedaboutit. Then the accountant is about $180 per month and it all adds up to way too much hassle. I am presently exploring alternatives and
griping to to the accountant, bank manager and hacienda. curiously enough the only ones who appear reasonable lately are immigration officials.
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked of such a thing."
Dwight David Eisenhower
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reefrocket
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I sat here for a lot of long minutes trying to find words to cover what I feel. But am still dumb struck an goverments (US included) that willingly
shot themselves not in the foot but in the groin. There needs to be another kind of little face here but this juke one will have to do
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Bajabus
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The underground system works very well indeed. It slays me that PEMEX franchises can get away with disobeying the labor laws here. When I asked the
workers why they don't go to the labor board they told me that their boss pays bribes and that they would lose their jobs if they complained. It's
pathetic.
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked of such a thing."
Dwight David Eisenhower
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bajabus
The underground system works very well indeed. It slays me that PEMEX franchises can get away with disobeying the labor laws here.
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Familiar with "white unions"? Employers pay unions expressly formed to keep their employees in line. The underground system works well because the
above ground one is a joke. I could tell stories but I'm in business down here and it wouldn't be wise. Safe to say that if you don't have friends in
high places you will get eaten alive.
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Bajabus
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well after seven years I'm getting ready to call it quits.
I've got some good friends but now too many want to be my friend. I have been very fortunate to have an fm-3 lucrativa as a tecnico en energia solar
and tecnico en la installacion de sistemas VSAT por connection al internet and I have to say that la migra has been great but the other blood sucking
leaches have peeed me off greatly.
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked of such a thing."
Dwight David Eisenhower
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Braulio
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Un par de pendejos.
Bajabus -
I've read your posts and can relate. I think if you're looking to slowly build a business that serves the community and honors it's workers you're
making a big mistake. Your philosophy should be to make as much money just as fast as you can and then get out (at least of that business venture) -
and I'm not being facetious. That's just the culture.
And BTW - I'm not one to feel sorry for mexicans - I think they have exactly the system they deserve.
By treating others with what you consider fairness you're probably just broadcasting that you're a pendejo. I hope you don't take offense man.
I used to be opimistic that things would change - L I was even a big supporter of Salinas Gortari. I guess that makes me a pendejo too.
Braulio
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Braulio
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grover -
The Mexico City airport deal was anarchy - that may be what Mexico needs or is headed to but I see that as another topic altogether.
I think that Mexico and pretty much all of Latin America needs to do some real cultural soul searching - practically all Latin American countries are
mired with the same problems (although Chile did come out with about the same ranking as the US on a recent corruption survey).
I'm getting way off topic here and you guys probably don't want to hear my wacko views on Latin America.
I'll just repeat that I think Mexicans have exactly the system they deserve - I've spent 30 some odd years feeling sorry for them and have pretty much
given up as far Mexicans understanding the benefits of things like fairness and teamwork.
Take care grover.
Braulio
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JESSE
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Braulio
I totally disagree with you, what do you mean we deserve what we have?????
Why do we the hard working and decent people of Mexico deserve to have a stupid corrupt goverment? i could blame the US goverment for many wrong
things in this world, but i am not going to say that the american people deserve something because their goverments policies or actions. The mexican
people is the victim of years of neglect from the ruling party, wich by the way was in power for so many years because it had a deal with the US,
basically the PRI promised that they werent going to let any soviet influence in Mexico in exchange of the US looking the other way and letting the
PRI do what it wanted, as soon as the Soviet union collapsed, the deal was off and the PRI went down.
I am not blaming the US, but Mexicans do not have what they deserve by a long shot, considering the idiotic, corrupt, and marooonic goverment we have,
we have managed one way or another to have relative peace compared with most countries in the world, our economy is not first world but is not in
shambles, we have managed to keep this country going even after all the rape that the PRI has done to us, and that says a lot about mexicans.
[Edited on 12-13-2002 by JESSE]
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Braulio
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Jesse -
I only have a couple minutes here to respond - I'll give a more complete explantion when I get back this evening.
I think Mexico has relied way too much on the US. The "we are so victimized" mentality that is prevalent is really becoming stale to me. If they
want to throw the scoundrels then fine - get on with it.
I'm talking on the macro scale here - yeah it's tough looking into the eyes of some impoverished mother with three kids and tell her that it's all her
fault but in the final analysis a people determines and should accept responsability for their own situation. Until that happens there's no hope.
I think there are cultural things that also keep Mexico mired in the 3rd world - I know that's not politically correct but there are a lot of mexican
academics who are saying just that.
We'll be in touch tonight Jesse - here's looking forward to an interesting chat.
Take care man.
Braulio
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BajaNomad
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The American people deserve what they get too. So many people won't do any research on the officials they elect and run with whichever advertising
campaign was able to sway them more....
...then they complain about the decisions these people make. Blah.
So, in the same regard, the Mexican people are complaining about their elected officials as well.... and probably deserve what they get because of it
as well.
The populace of each country has to take responsibility for their actions and decisions.... including whom they vote into office. It has nothing to
do with how hard-working, noble and decent they may be, it has to do with the decisions they make about their government (that's supposed to represent
their best interest).
Interesting news item:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20021212-1742-mexi...
[Edited on 12-13-2002 by BajaNomad]
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people.
– Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
We know we must go back if we live, and we don`t know why.
– John Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez
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JESSE
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Braulio
The situation in the US and Mexico are totally different, in the US people have a voice in their votes, they can remove or install anybody they want
and that makes them responsible for their actions. In Mexico until the 2000 presidential elections we didnt have this "luxury", our vote did not count
and there was nothing to do about it, if the majorities voted againts the PRI, the results would just be rigged and thats that. If you raised your
voice, pretty soon you had a visit by the goverment letting you know that you should shut up or else, if you kept rasing your voice, one day you would
just dissapear.
Thousand of people died triying to change our country, to no avail, for 70 years the people of Mexico was not responsible for the goverment and its
actions, not because we liked it, but because there was no other choice. Its funny that many people called the PRI the worlds perfect dictatorship,
and it was, and trust me, if Mexico wasnt next to the US, the PRI would have never lasted 70 years.
You have been voting for your elected officials for what? 100 years? more? we have just done that once in the year 2000, we werent allowed to choose
our future and we are not responsible for a mess that took 70 years of corruption, impunity, murder, and support from our neighbor.
Mexico before Nafta did not rellied at all economically in the US, this is well know and i know many people think Mexico lives off the US, but that is
not true, look at official figures on trade and on foreign help before 1990, and the numbers will speak the truth.
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by grover
I think more and more people in the US have started to suspect that voting doesn't matter.
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Americans who don't vote are ignorant of the facts. Voting DOES matter and is the MOST important thing one can do to preserve democracy. Those who
abdicate their right to choose their representation are hypocrites and should not be allowed to complain about or benefit from the political
process.
Mexico's affair with democracy has just started. The big test will be the next national election. If PRI regains control, the party's over.
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reefrocket
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Keep up the good discussion guys. I love following your debates, interesting and informative.
| Quote: |
Those who abdicate their right to choose their representation are hypocrites and should not be
allowed to complain about or benefit from the political process.
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I don't seem to be able to get the 'Bold' or Size to work to emphasize my taking exception to the word "hypocrites" as in my opinion these are what
are in office or have been in office!
I got a LOT to say about MY government but not on this a Baja format.
On an unrelated to this thread story. I read in my local paper (an AP wire article) on the Mexico Prisons in the border areas that have branched out
(in violation of Mexico law) having prisoners make wood furniture and selling it to dealers in the US. The prison officals are following the law to
the extent that they pay prisoners the Mexico standard wage. But by selling their wares they (prisons) undercut the locals that are doing the same
jobs and selling to the same US dealers. This is the part that is not legal in Mexico.
[Edited on 14-12-2002 by reefrocket]
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Dave
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| Quote: |
I don't seem to be able to get the 'Bold' or Size to work to emphasize my taking exception to the word "hypocrites" as in my opinion these are what
are in office or have been in office!
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You're right! I was being too kind. Citizens of any democracy eligible to vote who choose not to are traitors.
The last time I checked, our elected representatives were elected. How many voters actually research the voting records of their representatives? How
many actually participate in local party meetings or caucases? When the electorate becomes diluted the many are ruled by the few. And the ones who
choose NOT to be part of the process have NO right to b-tch. Pogo was right! "We have met the enemy and he is us."
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Braulio
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Dave - I'd prefer that uninformed people not vote.
Jesse -
Sorry I'm so late in reponding - just got tied up here.
Bajanomad covered my thoughts pretty well as far as not feeling sorry for Mexicans part - I'd only add that I think Mexicans are generally pretty
tough and self-sufficient - certainly more so than Americans. They don't need my pity. I would also personally find it dificult to treat them as
poor step children and at the same time my equals. I prefer to embrace Mexicans as equals.
People generally misuse the term 'Ugly American' to mean an American who's loud and self-centered and generally an a-hole. Actually if you've read
the book you'll recall the central figure is a relative liberal who tries to understand and respect the culture of the country where he serves as the
new ambassador (forgot the name - Sakhara or something) His main problem is that he doesn't understand why the people want self-determination so
badly. That is - why they want to distance themselves from the US. I think I understand why Mexicans want to distance themselves from the US - it's
their country - and their responability.
I don't know how much you want to get into the cultural thing Jesse - let me just shoot a quote from an article at you and see how you respond. The
following is from an interview with Mario Molina (who's the only Mexican to ever win a Nobel Prize in science). You might be aware that Dr. Molina is
from Mexico City and did his undergraduate work at UNAM and then went to Germany and Berkeley for his graduate studies.
(my translation): "from very early on as a high school student I remember that the sciences fascinated me, but having that interest wan't especially
easy, because the latinamerican cuture doesn't tend to favor the sciences, especially at that age." related Molina."In fact I had to struggle very
hard to keep my friends and maintain an active interest in the sciences." he added. "We have very few scientists coming, for example, from the
hispanic community and it's something that we obviously have to improve."
(the original) "desde muy temprano, como estudiante de preparatoria, recuerdo que me fascinaban las ciencias".
"Pero tener ese inter?s (en las ciencias) no resultaba particularmente f?cil, porque la cultura latinoamericana no es muy proclive a favorecer las
ciencias, especialmente a esa edad", cont? Molina al ganar el premio."De modo que tuve que luchar muy duro para conservar a mis amigos y mantener vivo
mi inter?s por las ciencias", agreg?."Tenemos muy pocos cient?ficos procedentes, por ejemplo, de la comunidad hispana, y eso es algo que claramente
tenemos que mejorar", coment?.
from:
http://www.contactomagazine.com/mariomolina0927.htm
We could also kick around effects of the role of women in Mexico and some other topics that I feel make the latin culture less competitive on the
world scale but I don't know that this is the forum to do it.
Take care Jesse . I'll be down in the bowels of Mexico (Puebla and DF)through the first of the year.
I hope everybody on the board enjoys the holidays.
Braulio
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Dave
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Aww man; if only I'd voted for the right guy, things would be getting better for most people. 30 years of falling wages and wrong again!
You miss my point entirely. The issue is not who wins elections but HOW. In 2000 the presidential election was decided by 51.3 percent of eligible
voters. This means that the elected representatives of 25% of the population run our country.
Now, I know that we was robbed in Florida but we was robbed fair and square. You think the Supreme Court was packed by republican lackeys
coincidentally? If democrats would have just voted according to their registration Florida would never have been an issue.
The fact that 50+ million Americans voted for Gdubya is amazing. The fact that almost 100 million didn't vote at all is CRIMINAL!
[Edited on 12-16-2002 by Dave]
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