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elgatoloco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4332
Registered: 11-19-2002
Location: Yes
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La Bufadora
This place use to be a BIG mess with lots of trash all over the place.
The cruise ship passengers were appalled, the cruise ship companies said clean up or were not coming. They cleaned it up. $$$$ talks. 
MAGA
Making Attorneys Get Attorneys
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Bob H
Elite Nomad
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Registered: 8-19-2003
Location: San Diego
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On our recent Mulege trip my wife and I noticed a big difference in the amount of litter - a lot less of it. Either the hurricane blew everything
into the vados and then washed away, or the locals are taking notice and cleaning things up. We were also amazed that the very first day after Easter
Sunday we checked out a few beaches along Bahia Concepcion and found them to be pretty clean (after Semana Santa!).
Bob H
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 2-2-2003
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The clean up
will jhappen much faster than in the U.S. as there are fewer people and they seem to learn a lot faster.
The trash truck Tucker was referring to is back in action in La Paz, there are road crews between La Paz and Los Barriles keeping the highway clean
ad I have seen a number of them farther north.
These are not the criminals and law breakers that you see along the highways in the u.s. but people that are actually intrerested in being there and
doing some good.
The education some are trying to provide these people is definately working and in spite of the bad example set by a certain corporation, Baja
continues to be cleansed by the people that care.
And thanks to those that are contributing by setting a good example themselves.
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Leanna
Newbie
Posts: 8
Registered: 4-5-2004
Location: Los Angeles
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I've learned lots of good info from this thread (including the smoking thing!:no ,
and glad to hear that progress is happening!
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Me No
Banned
Posts: 444
Registered: 11-24-2003
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In my opinion most cig smokers don't regard discarding their own butts anywhere they please as littering. Mike H made it clear Debra, inspite of what
she says, is in that number.
Environmental concerns are now being taught in school in Mexico. Hopefully, the children will be able to pass along this bit of wisdom to their
parents. I think it has long been considered a right of the Mexican people to discard trash wherever and whenever they see fit. They just didn't see
a need to spend money for gas to "haul things over the hill". Things may be starting to change, as I have seen crews picking up trash along side of
the road. There even appeared to be prisoners, of some sort, picking up trash in one place. I try to lead by example and not worry to much if
someone leaves a mess in an area I have just cleaned up. I certainly would never tell a Mexican in their own country to clean something up. I do
know that last weekend me ,two old folks who happened along, and 3, 5 and 6 year olds cleaned about two miles of beach. Just a few years ago this
same job would have taken a whole bus load of people, as there was so much more trash.
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Me No
I think it has long been considered a right of the Mexican people to discard trash wherever and whenever they see fit.
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Whaaa? Not the Mexican people I know. And just who would they think conferred this right?
| Quote: | Originally posted by Me No
I certainly would never tell a Mexican in their own country to clean something up. I do know that last weekend me ,two old folks who happened along,
and 3, 5 and 6 year olds cleaned about two miles of beach. Just a few years ago this same job would have taken a whole bus load of people, as there
was so much more trash. |
I find the idea of Americans picking up after Mexicans demeaning and condescending.....to Mexicans. It's like we think that they don't know right from
wrong, they do!
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Me No
Banned
Posts: 444
Registered: 11-24-2003
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So you are denying the fact that many Mexicans discard their litter wherever they want? You got some nerve going to another county and telling those
that live there what they should or shouldn't do. The fact is, there it is not considered a big deal. Even for those that do pick up after
themselves. Call you and American Centric. Hmmm, let me see. Corned beef in Baja. Yep, that would do it. The cured (salted) processed meats are
so often forgotten in baja.
And by the way, I have a Mexican wife and those were her words, but from what I have seen I have to agree.
Tell me honestly, have you ever been south of just north of Puerto Nuevo?
[Edited on 5-4-2004 by Me No]
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Mike Humfreville
Super Nomad
Posts: 1148
Registered: 8-26-2003
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While I mean absolutely no disrespect to the Mexicans, I agree that they have not, as a nationality, been overly concerned with litter. I'm not
saying that the gringo way is right either.
But when some of us see a pristine remote beach and then the same beach covered with litter, I know where I?d go, where most of us would go, including
Mexicans. No one wants to live with someone else?s trash.
But that doesn?t make either side right or wrong. It?s just different training and circumstances.
Twenty-five years back we set up camp for a few weeks at La Gringa. We were north of the green huts which were mostly vacated by that time, but still
standing. We were alone for a few days and then a family from Tijuana set up camp a reasonable distance north of us on the berm. Daily, while they
were there, we retrieved trash and toys from the water as the current worked south, in front of our camp. I never felt they were bad or
inconsiderate, just that they had different standards based on unique social demands.
But did we enjoy picking up their trash? No.
From everything I?ve seen lately, the folks of Baja are deciding more and more on their own that trash sucks. And from my point of view, it started
internally with the Mexicans. They have grown tired of trash and are taking actions to make themselves aware. Sooner or later it?ll filter down to
the rest of the populace. In the mean time, as visitors or foreign residents, we can be supportive in their efforts.
I hope that is the definition of a win-win deal.
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Herb
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Posts: 202
Registered: 11-6-2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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I'm more in agreement with Me No on this one. I think part of the problem is that people are lumping all sources of litter together (there are as many
reasons that pople do it as there are types of trash).
I do not doubt Dave's contention that many of the Mexicans he knows are aware that just tossing garbage here or there is "wrong" but they continue to
do it because they are lazy or just don't care.
There are those in rural communities, however, who have not bought into the idea that "litter" is "wrong". They dispose of their trash the way people
in those remote areas have for thousands of years . Who the heck are we as 20th century foreigners to tell them that now they must change their ways
just because we said so?
As was mentioned earlier in the thread, some success can be had in changing those types of attitudes if you can demonstrate to people that there is
something in it for them. (Like tourist $$)
Finally, the notion that cleaning up after anyone is condescending and demeaning is silly. If that is the case, then in the US we are condescending
and demeaning to our own population. Folks assume that because we don't see litter that it doesn't happen here anymore. Nothing could be farther from
the truth. Just as much litter happens on the highways here, the ONLY difference is that we have a much more sysematic and instituionalized program
for removal of the garbage.
Don't believe me, visit any SoCal beach the first working day after 4th of July. Looks JUST LIKE Bahia Concepcion after Semana Santa. (If not worse)
Or how about a Stadium after a sporting event or even a movie theater?
I, for one, have spent many hours picking up trash in some of my favorite California wilderness and beach areas. Sure I could just sit back and say
the people who made the mess ought to clean it up, but I would then just sit and look at the filth while I wait for that to happen (not!) or I can do
something about it myself. Selfish, yes! Demeaning? Hardly.
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Me No
So you are denying the fact that many Mexicans discard their litter wherever they want? You got some nerve going to another county and telling those
that live there what they should or shouldn't do. The fact is, there it is not considered a big deal. Even for those that do pick up after
themselves. Call you and American Centric. Hmmm, let me see. Corned beef in Baja. Yep, that would do it. The cured (salted) processed meats are
so often forgotten in baja.
Having lived here for seven years, that "other country" you mention is now my adopted home. You bet I'm gonna say something, just as I would in the
States.
By the way, it IS a big deal. I have witnessed the police force litterers into picking up not only their own mess but that of others as well.
I don't understand your comment about corned beef; especially since a fair amount of my customers are Nationals. Are you suggesting only Mexican fare
should be served in Mexico? I guess that's why there are so few Chinese restaurants down here or even fewer Mexican restaurants in the States. >
And by the way, I have a Mexican wife and those were her words, but from what I have seen I have to agree.
Tell me honestly, have you ever been south of just north of Puerto Nuevo?
[Edited on 5-4-2004 by Me No] |
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Herb
Finally, the notion that cleaning up after anyone is condescending and demeaning is silly. If that is the case, then in the US we are condescending
and demeaning to our own population. Folks assume that because we don't see litter that it doesn't happen here anymore. Nothing could be farther from
the truth. Just as much litter happens on the highways here, the ONLY difference is that we have a much more sysematic and instituionalized program
for removal of the garbage.
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Herb, I think you miss my point. The fact that a Mexicano KNOWS that a Gringo will pick up his litter is what I am getting at. You don't reward bad
behavior.
I have witnessed Mexicans throwing all manner of trash including dirty diapers out of car windows. Are you and others arguing that they are not aware
that their behavior is wrong? Puleeese!
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Bookerman
Newbie
Posts: 16
Registered: 10-7-2003
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According to Carl Franz' Peoples Guide to Mexico, this is just matter of differing philosophies concerning how to dispose of trash. Here in America,
we gather all of the trash and concentrate it in central dumps where it will remain until decomposed eons from now. In Mexico, they let much of the
trash lay where it falls until it decomposes eons from now. In the end, it's much the same really. Now recycling is another matter altogether.
On a somewhat related topic, I can remember when smoking was allowed in supermarkets here in the states. I remember my mother throwing the butt
straight onto the floor where my brother and I would scramble to see who would be the one to stamp it out, and then we would leave it there. Those
were the days.
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Herb
Nomad
Posts: 202
Registered: 11-6-2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
Herb, I think you miss my point. The fact that a Mexicano KNOWS that a Gringo will pick up his litter is what I am getting at. You don't reward bad
behavior.
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For a moment I thought maybe I had missed your point, but your reply makes it more clear that I did not.
"You don't reward bad behavior."
What could be more condescending and demeaning than that? It is not my place (or yours) to reward nor punish the Mexicans for what they do with their
own country which was Me No's main point and I wholeheartedly agree.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
I have witnessed Mexicans throwing all manner of trash including dirty diapers out of car windows. Are you and others arguing that they are not aware
that their behavior is wrong? Puleeese!
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I also made a clear distinction between the "diaper throwers" who "know better" vs. people who have not bought into more modern methods of trash
disposal.
And how many "Diaper tossers" really only toss them out of the window because they are sure that some gringo will pick them up? That is again an
arrogant train of thought that places Gringos at the center of the universe and that somehow all of the Mexicans lives and actions revolve around us.
I've seen just as much litter in remote parts of mainland Mexico that are almost never visited by gringos.
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Me No
Banned
Posts: 444
Registered: 11-24-2003
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This all boils down to basic chemistry. The second law of thermo dynamics to be precise. Which states, " any attempt to make order from caos, will
only result in further caos". So I guess it depends on which side of the law you want to participate in, the ordering part or the caos part. In the
end it is all the same result, an endless cycle.
Consider this, lets say we convince all the Mexicans that they should spend the extra time and energy to neatly bundle their discards and haul
them to the dump. Extra bags are required and gas to get it there, more caos. What does the dump end up doing with the trash when it gets there.
Well in the states we bury it. Burn fossil fuels to dig the hole and put it in, more caos. In Mexico the prefered way is to burn it. CFC's and a
whole array of other green house gases are released into the atmosphere, more caos. Thereby adding to a global problem, of which the US is the biggest
perpetrator. So I say again, who are we to tell anyone what to do with their trash. :moon:
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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Well, we could always get rid of all the people. Yeah, I vote for that.
No people=no garbage.
This message brought to you by PETA and EarthFirst.
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