Santiago
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TJ's chief of police and related issues: Link Added
A long and very interesting article on Colonel Leyzaola, Tijuana's Chief of Police, here.
Edit: when I click on the blue "here", it works for me. Here is the link for those of you who can not get the shortcut to work: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/18/101018fa_fact_...
[Edited on 10-24-2010 by Santiago]
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sanquintinsince73
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Excellent reading. Thank you for posting.
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DENNIS
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I always knew it. Leyzola is the man.
Oh....there was nothing said? I've been waiting for something cus I really like this guy.
OK....I'm on a vigil...I'll wait.
OK...I see this little off-color link at the end of jim's post like we're all supposed to pay tight attention to what he says...which we will if he'll
just give us a clue as to WTF he wants us to look at.
[Edited on 10-23-2010 by DENNIS]
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durrelllrobert
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
OK...I see this little off-color link at the end of jim's post
[Edited on 10-23-2010 by DENNIS] |
Where? I want to go there, but I don't see it 
Bob Durrell
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JoeJustJoe
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What does the article mean Leyzola job is in jeopardy? From reading the local papers Leyzola is done.....put a fork in him it's over because
Bustamante Tijuana's mayor elect isn't going to bring him back for a second term.
What's this public relations push for Leyzaola in the US media including the SDUT? I'm sorry although Leyzaola did a few good things to clean up
Tijuana. Leyzaola needs to go with that human rights record he has of abuse against citizens of Tijuana, mostly alleged corrupt TJ cops. ( They
sometimes crack down on Mexican citizens over their looks when they didn't commit any crimes))
Anybody could make you sign a confession if they are going to put a plastic bag over your head while applying electrodes to your genitals! I'm not
sure all these civilians were guilty either, and certainly the Mexican courts didn't think the Military had enough evidence to hold these civilian
cops in jail and face the Mexican justice system. ( most of them were released, and filed human rights abuse charges)
Of course I understand many in both the US and Mexico approve of these torture methods, but I wonder if they would approve of torture if it was done
in their home country, or to a family member of theirs based on the most flimsy evidence? People who approve of torture most likely also approve of
the old Bush administration stance on waterboarding and torture.
If you ask me Leyzaola likes to talk tough for the media.... calling drug cartels members "mugrosos" and making the fight personal. Leyzaola was well
protected with many body guards and bulletproof cars, and he slept in the Military base where he couldn't be touched, but the poor TJ cops wasn't
protected and many had to suffer because of Leyzaola's big mouth. ( for awhile there the cartels went after the TJ cops just to get back at Leyzaola)
The whole legal process of the " arraigo" is a step backwards than a step forward for Mexico. Since the military has become more involved in major
Mexican cities. The crime, drug, and death toll really hasn't gone lower, and in fact the crime wave has gotten worst in a few cities in Mexico. The
drugs are still making it to the USA where the US citizens have a insatiable appetite for the drugs, and the human right abuse has gone through the
roof with the Military. (Tijuana has a mixed record. TJ seems a lot calmer, but the murder rate is higher than it was last year, and the drugs are
still flowing openly in Tijuana.(
The other guy I have some questions about is General Alfonso Duarte Múgica. The General seems to have a big mouth, and says one outrageous statement
after another. For example, he says the latest record drug bust was a death blow to the drug cartels, and that the drugs are stopped at the border.
Yeah, right General. I love the General's story about the "c-ckroaches" and how he has them on the run. ( he explained the 15 deaths over just a
number of days was due to the "c-ckroach" effect....claiming the cartels has been dismantled in other places in the south, and a few loose cannons
were running around like c-ckroaches trying to gain a foothold in Tijuana, and causing problems..
[Edited on 10-24-2010 by JoeJustJoe]
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Woooosh
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It's the devil you know, or the devil you don't know. I think he's worth keeping but it's a political assignment so that ends that. The reality is
the current Mexican "justice" system encourages these quick "confessions" and you are correct that every country does it. The most recent wiki-leaks
say the US troops only could watch and took notes while the Iraqi's tortured confessions out of their people. If not a source of credible
information, torturing encourages us to pick our acquaintances in life and cyber-life wisely.
Someone will work out a truce with the cartels on a regional or national level. Mexico is out manned and out gunned. And it isn't ready or capable
yet. The justice system needs to kick it in gear and finish the training for the open court system for more transparency. The people are scared,
tired and hurting financially and now they don't believe anything they can't see with their eyes. Mexico cannot win their war without many more
innocents dying.
I think Mexico will leave this battle up to the US so solve at the border. Mexico already blames the US drug addicts as much as the narcos for the
domestic drug violence. They will push for more Meridia Initiative dollars then blame the USA for every death that occurs on Mexican soil. Or they
will just let the drugs, guns and money flow freely across, around, over and under the border in both directions like now and go back to not noticing
it.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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ramuma53
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Many people argue about torture executed by the Mexican police as it were performed on just anybody to just make them say they did it and it is not
right.
It is always executed against known criminals who they, for a lot of methods, have determined or have a lot of evidence they are guilty, they don’t
want false guilty people, because false guilty people do not know real information, police only want to perform those dark arts on people they know
have information and whose information need fast, but what is fast?
Fast is before 72 hours, most drug cartel members know they will now withstand torture and they do not expect anybody to withstand it more than
humanly possible and that is 72 hours; most of them keep in close contact and if any of them are missing for several hours, they know they have 72
hours to move everything the people missing know and then the guy can talk because he know everything has been moved, so the objective is to make them
talk long before those 72 hours expire to be able to catch more of them and of course the goods.
Then it is a race to get the right wise guy and extract the information as fast as possible inside those 72 hours, no object on getting a know nothing
guy, you just lose your time and get in problems for nothing.
So accusing any Mexican police for committing torture is not the wise thing to do, simply there is no other way of getting the important information,
you cannot substitute it for technical tools or investigative work, by the time you do it, everything has changed, they can change everything in 72
hours, and not even the telephones will work anymore.
Would you put all those constraints and accusations on Elliot Ness in Chicago in the 1920? It is the same situation so you see the same methods,
simply no other way.
Ok, you will say, what will you say if you get tortured, well we Mexicans know police do not torture innocent guys, they only do it when they catch
you with something solid, so do not want to be tortured in Mexico? Do not be caught with something you should not have, that easy.
We know it is against the constitution to be searched and stopped in check points, but we know the actual situation and those are small things you
want to allow to cooperate, we even thank those soldiers or police officers.
Yes the Tijuana police chief is a tough guy, well that is what is needed, that is why we put him there and more, we have a problem, let’s correct it,
we are not cry babies.
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JoeJustJoe
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ramuma53
Many people argue about torture executed by the Mexican police as it were performed on just anybody to just make them say they did it and it is not
right.
It is always executed against known criminals who they, for a lot of methods, have determined or have a lot of evidence they are guilty, they don’t
want false guilty people, because false guilty people do not know real information, police only want to perform those dark arts on people they know
have information and whose information need fast, but what is fast?
Fast is before 72 hours, most drug cartel members know they will now withstand torture and they do not expect anybody to withstand it more than
humanly possible and that is 72 hours; most of them keep in close contact and if any of them are missing for several hours, they know they have 72
hours to move everything the people missing know and then the guy can talk because he know everything has been moved, so the objective is to make them
talk long before those 72 hours expire to be able to catch more of them and of course the goods.
Then it is a race to get the right wise guy and extract the information as fast as possible inside those 72 hours, no object on getting a know nothing
guy, you just lose your time and get in problems for nothing.
So accusing any Mexican police for committing torture is not the wise thing to do, simply there is no other way of getting the important information,
you cannot substitute it for technical tools or investigative work, by the time you do it, everything has changed, they can change everything in 72
hours, and not even the telephones will work anymore.
Would you put all those constraints and accusations on Elliot Ness in Chicago in the 1920? It is the same situation so you see the same methods,
simply no other way.
Ok, you will say, what will you say if you get tortured, well we Mexicans know police do not torture innocent guys, they only do it when they catch
you with something solid, so do not want to be tortured in Mexico? Do not be caught with something you should not have, that easy.
We know it is against the constitution to be searched and stopped in check points, but we know the actual situation and those are small things you
want to allow to cooperate, we even thank those soldiers or police officers.
Yes the Tijuana police chief is a tough guy, well that is what is needed, that is why we put him there and more, we have a problem, let’s correct it,
we are not cry babies. |
If they had evidence against the cop they held and tortured then why did the Mexican court system let them out of prison?
Many times the military had little evidence against suspected criminals except for another cartel member fingering them, or another TJ cop giving
names under torture. That's why they say torture doesn't always work because the person being tortured gives them any information just to get them to
stop, and it's not always accurate.
But really it doesn't matter Leyzaola is gone according to mayor elect Carlos Bustamante who going to name a replacement in a few days.
There was something in the 'AFT' that reported this the other day, and another report I forget where but I think it was Mexico city and they were
making fun of Leyzaola's super hero status that they say Leyzaola created himself, although some in Tijuana actually consider him a hero.
Why should Americans accept Torture in Mexico but won't accept it here in America or even during a war?
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Bajahowodd
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"So accusing any Mexican police for committing torture is not the wise thing to do, simply there is no other way of getting the important information,
you cannot substitute it for technical tools or investigative work, by the time you do it, everything has changed, they can change everything in 72
hours, and not even the telephones will work anymore.
Ok, you will say, what will you say if you get tortured, well we Mexicans know police do not torture."
You might want to ask Amanda Knox in Rome, Italy about that.
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ramuma53
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Statements under torture does not constitute proof, so it is not proof against the guy talking, but anyway they get the intelligence they need to go
after the big guys, to just get a small time corrupt cop is no the goal, the goal is to get from them the information needed to get the wise guys and
they surely got a lot of people basedon the police guys talks, also they get a lot so you do not know who was the one talking.
You may say it is unfair, but that is a way to protect them and then just let the not guilty walk out and nobody knows who was the one who talked.
It is public knowlege that a lot of cops work for the cartels but a lot of them do it because there is no other way, or you work for them or you die
and they do it untill they have the oportunity to go out talking everything they were able to know.
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redEmuNug
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Does anyone have any official statistics about these things. Its kind of all speculation without some real research. I'll see what I can dig up. Anna Maria
[Edited on 12-9-2010 by redEmuNug]
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DENNIS
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tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick
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bajaguy
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Waterboarding
Playboy. Com journalist Mike Guy underwent waterboarding by a trained member of the U.S. military in the site's new Lab Rat feature.
Mike Guy bet that he could endure 15 seconds of the interrogation technique used on al Qaeda chief Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah.
Watch the results:
http://content1.clipmarks.com/content/7E8ADC46-F3DD-4D6F-B18...
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