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MitchMan
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gsbotanico, thank you very much for the post.
I just saw your post today. Fantastic info. And, no, your post was not too geeky for me. I am very familiar with fertilizer composition as I am
into growing tomatoes and learned a great deal about tomato plant chemistry and how the physical properties of the grow media and the specific
chemical properties of fertilizer chemical compounds work...with regard to container tomato growing. I am a complete novice when it comes to citrus
trees.
Very open to any and all advice and info on growing citrus trees. I have one mango tree, one orange tree and one lime tree in Baja and an avocado
tree, Fremont Mandarin orange tree and a key lime tree in California together with 19 container tomatoes. This year, I am conducting 16 different
experiments with container tomatoes after working all year on nailing down (as best I could) chemical attributes of fertilizers and physical
attributes of potting mix.
Over the past year an a half, I fertilized all three fruit trees in La Paz with 17-17-17 for NPK, ammonium sulfate, bone meal (for phosphorus and
calcium), Sul Po Mag for potassium and sulfur, Epsom salts for magnesium and sulfur, and a little store bought compost. The lime tree is doing
gangbusters, the mango tree is recouping quite well and has fruited really well this year (after not setting any fruit last year), but the orange tree
looks really bad and I do not know why. All three trees get plenty of water, but the orange tree is drying up and smaller branches have died, dried
up and broken off for some unknown and inexplicable reason to me. Funny thing, though, the orange tree is setting a lot of fruit, just not that many
leaves left on the tree???
I have a good handle on NPK and the minor macronutrients and the micronutrients for tomatoes, but I know nothing about the like fertilizer
requirements for citrus trees.
One note. Everybody calls 17-17-17 or 10-10-10 or 6-6-6 a "balanced" fertilizer. In my view, there is nothing balanced about it from a chemical
perspective. The 17-17-17 is the % by weight of NPK respectively. But for N, it is that element only at 17%. When you apply the same perspective to
the P in NPK, the 17% means Potassium Oxide compound denoted as P2O5 wherein the P is actually only 43% of the compound it self. The same type of
thing exists for the K in NPK. The K refers to K20 compound where the element K is 83% by weight of that compound. Therefore, to restate NPK at the
'elemental level' it would be more like 17-8-15 and there is nothing balanced about that.
Also, different plants absorb (uptake) nutrients at different ratios. The real trick is to know just exactly how much does a mango tree absorb of the
key nutrients over one entire growing season. If you know that, then you can apply your fertilizers accordingly with accuracy as most fertilizers
disclose their contents by % weight. Without knowing that exactly, one can only guess and thereby wind up using only trial and error. For further
confusion, different citrus tree fertilizers have vastly different compositions and application rates, so, they are not much of reliable guideline
given that they differ so greatly from each other. It's even worse for tomato growing.
Never hear of anybody growing tomatoes in Baja, that is, with few exceptions. The weather in BCS is perfect for tomatoes from January to May.
[Edited on 5-15-2016 by MitchMan]
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David K
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Great stuff gs botanico and Jack!
MitchMan, triple 15 is popular here, but I feel there is no research behind that thinking. I used 21-7-14 on my banana trees to cover the nitrogen
& potassium demands.
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mtgoat666
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Fruit trees are pretty hardy. Worry less about the fertilizer and more about the conditions. Not too much or too little or too frequent water. Keep
lots of mulch over roots area. Fertilizer in moderation. Kill weeds under the canopy.
Quote: Originally posted by MitchMan  | gsbotanico, thank you very much for the post.
I just saw your post today. Fantastic info. And, no, your post was not too geeky for me. I am very familiar with fertilizer composition as I am
into growing tomatoes and learned a great deal about tomato plant chemistry and how the physical properties of the grow media and the specific
chemical properties of fertilizer chemical compounds work...with regard to container tomato growing. I am a complete novice when it comes to citrus
trees.
Very open to any and all advice and info on growing citrus trees. I have one mango tree, one orange tree and one lime tree in Baja and an avocado
tree, Fremont Mandarin orange tree and a key lime tree in California together with 19 container tomatoes. This year, I am conducting 16 different
experiments with container tomatoes after working all year on nailing down (as best I could) chemical attributes of fertilizers and physical
attributes of potting mix.
Over the past year an a half, I fertilized all three fruit trees in La Paz with 17-17-17 for NPK, ammonium sulfate, bone meal (for phosphorus and
calcium), Sul Po Mag for potassium and sulfur, Epsom salts for magnesium and sulfur, and a little store bought compost. The lime tree is doing
gangbusters, the mango tree is recouping quite well and has fruited really well this year (after not setting any fruit last year), but the orange tree
looks really bad and I do not know why. All three trees get plenty of water, but the orange tree is drying up and smaller branches have died, dried
up and broken off for some unknown and inexplicable reason to me. Funny thing, though, the orange tree is setting a lot of fruit, just not that many
leaves left on the tree???
I have a good handle on NPK and the minor macronutrients and the micronutrients for tomatoes, but I know nothing about the like fertilizer
requirements for citrus trees.
One note. Everybody calls 17-17-17 or 10-10-10 or 6-6-6 a "balanced" fertilizer. In my view, there is nothing balanced about it from a chemical
perspective. The 17-17-17 is the % by weight of NPK respectively. But for N, it is that element only at 17%. When you apply the same perspective to
the P in NPK, the 17% means Potassium Oxide compound denoted as P2O5 wherein the P is actually only 43% of the compound it self. The same type of
thing exists for the K in NPK. The K refers to K20 compound where the element K is 83% by weight of that compound. Therefore, to restate NPK at the
'elemental level' it would be more like 17-8-15 and there is nothing balanced about that.
Also, different plants absorb (uptake) nutrients at different ratios. The real trick is to know just exactly how much does a mango tree absorb of the
key nutrients over one entire growing season. If you know that, then you can apply your fertilizers accordingly with accuracy as most fertilizers
disclose their contents by % weight. Without knowing that exactly, one can only guess and thereby wind up using only trial and error. For further
confusion, different citrus tree fertilizers have vastly different compositions and application rates, so, they are not much of reliable guideline
given that they differ so greatly from each other. It's even worse for tomato growing.
Never hear of anybody growing tomatoes in Baja, that is, with few exceptions. The weather in BCS is perfect for tomatoes from January to May.
[Edited on 5-15-2016 by MitchMan] |
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MitchMan
Super Nomad
Posts: 1856
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Thanks, Goat. Actually, I think that my problem could be over watering of the mango and orange trees.
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gsbotanico
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Mitchman: I won't quote your post.
You're right about the triple 17,15, or any other number not being balanced. I argue with fertilizer salesmen in Mexico all the time about "triple
quince," which is what they are often pushing.
There's another factor in play. Certain nutrients, especially N,K, and Mg are absorbed very quickly by the roots. At the same time under heavy
irrigation or heavy rains they can be leached out very quickly, especially in sandy soils. This is where organic matter can help to retain the
nutrients. N, K, Mg deficiencies are quick to correct. Excess N, K, and Mg can easily burn the leaves. All of these fertilizers are chemically
salts, like table salt (sodium chloride). Plants don't like Na or Cl. High levels in well water cause big problems. Some plants like tomatoes are
more salt tolerant. Many other plants are not.
I've been told that lots of tomatoes are grown in greenhouses in BCS for winter production. I don't have firsthand knowledge of this. I know that in
BC there is both greenhouse and field production of tomatoes. I've talked with growers about this. Los Pinos is the big grower in the San Quintín
area.
Calcium can precipitate out and become unavailable at higher soil pHs. Organic material helps to lower the pH to acidify the soil. P is absorbed
very slowly and usually recommended as a preplant fertilization with incorporation into the soil. P deficiencies are very slow to correct.
Phosphoric acid in the irrigation water is the faster way.
I don't know what's causing the problem in your orange tree. Orange trees will often drop older leaves when fruit is setting. Normally new leaves
and blooms form at the same time. Have you checked for pests? Spider mites, or something else might be causing the problem. Get a hand lens and
look at the back of the leaves and the small adjacent branches. Mites are very tiny and can defoliate a plant if the infestation gets out of control.
For fertilization the only thing to worry about is iron and zinc deficiency. This manifests itself with a general persistent yellowing of the
leaves. Chelated forms of both nutrients will take care of the problem, but can be slow to correct the problem.
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Don Jorge
Senior Nomad
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Registered: 8-29-2003
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Looks like you got some fruit to set Woody. Nice.
We finally got to pick a few papaya fruits from some of our plants in San Clemente. Hope you get some mangoes to eat.
�And it never failed that during the dry years the people forgot about the rich years, and during the wet years they lost all memory of the dry
years. It was always that way.�― John Steinbeck
"All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E.P. Box
"Nature bats last." Doug "Hayduke" Peac-ck
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woody with a view
PITA Nomad
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We've got a our 10 one inch tall Papayas scattered around the yard. They grow very well around the hood!
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Mexitron
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Regarding citrus, ants are often the problem, at least in SoCal, as they bring in aphid, scale, and mealybug to farm them for the sugars they excrete.
Go after the ants best you can then spray the leaves hard with a hose end sprayer that has a spoonful of dish soap in it.
Citrus have a hard time absorbing some micronutrients--an easy fix for a homeowner is to foliar feed with Miracle-Gro which has lots of chelated
micronutrients that can bypass the root nutrient absorbtion problem. Not exactly an assayed farmer's approach but on a small scale it works fine.
For mangoes its probably too high in phosphorus to use more than a couple times to kick start an ailing plant.
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gsbotanico
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Don Jorge: Nice papayas! I was never successful in my garden in Cardiff by the Sea -- too close to the ocean and no southern exposure in the winter
time to keep them warm. I grew them in the ranch greenhouses and got great results. They grew so tall that I had to use a ladder to pick the fruit,
if the workers didn't take the fruit first.
Papaya seeds germinate very easily. I grew the Hawaiian variety. I like its flavor the best. Nothing beats a locally grown fresh papaya, matured on
the tree. When traveling in tropical Mexico, I always order fresh papaya with lime.
When doing my Peace Corps training for tropical Africa, we were told that we when first got to Africa a papaya would taste like an overripe cantaloupe
and that when we got home a cantaloupe would taste like an underripe papaya. How true!
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surfhat
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Papaya, The Melon of Health. I still have that book from decades ago and have loved them ever since.
Those Hawaiian strawberry papayas are the best but expensive to buy compared to the large Mexican ones. Hey Botanico, spread some my way, good buddy,
if you ever have too many. haha. Thanks to all here.
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BFS
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Looking good Woody! Mangos are coming everywhere I think. All the trees here in BCS are loaded beyond description right now. It is going to be a
banner season.
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woody with a view
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Hey Aleq good to see you!
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BFS
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yo! Good to "see" you too amigo. Hope life up norte is fabulous...Say hi to Bea for me.
Abrazos
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alacran
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Urine is a good fertilizer.
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woody with a view
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Mayan isn't.
Aleq, all is well in Gringolandia! We may be ready for another excursion soon!
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woody with a view
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Sad time in Whoville
seems like the mango didn't get enuf water! it's all a learning experience and there are stil 20-ish left that are 1/2 this size. next year i'll be
more regular with the watering and see if that's the problem.
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David K
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Happy to help with how to automate your irrigation system Woody.
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woody with a view
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Thanks for the offer. I prefer to hand water while I prowl my garden areas.
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Mexitron
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Woody--I'm amazed how much better my plants grow when watered automatically rather than by hand---they seem to really like a schedule!
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David K
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Exactly Steve... keeps the tree out of stress (too little water to too much water and irregular frequency of waterings).
Automatic irrigation ensures that every [x] days at [x] o'clock the tree will get [x] gallons of water (by setting the number of minutes or hours).
You choose the x factors, but then there is consistency and optimum growing conditions.
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