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Hook
Elite Nomad
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Gun possession by Mexican nat'ls
I remember several months back that Mexico was considering legalizing possession of firearms by all it citizens. Did this ever get signed into law?
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bajaguy
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Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja
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Maybe they should start issuing FM-T(F); FM-3(F) and FM-2(F)......the (F) indicating that the holder has passed a firearms course and is qualified to
own and posess a firearm
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Don Alley
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Mexicans can own guns, and I believe they even have a constitutional right to do so. A neighbor of ours in Loreto has a rifle and a shotgun.
They are limited to sporting guns, not military weapons. All guns must be registered.
There are hunting and shooting clubs in Mexico. One based in Constitution has an annual fishing tournament in Loreto every September.
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Hook
Elite Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Don Alley
Mexicans can own guns, and I believe they even have a constitutional right to do so. A neighbor of ours in Loreto has a rifle and a shotgun.
They are limited to sporting guns, not military weapons. All guns must be registered.
There are hunting and shooting clubs in Mexico. One based in Constitution has an annual fishing tournament in Loreto every September.
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Yes, but I believe the law being considered at the time was for handgun possession.
So, no one knows what became of it?
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capn.sharky
Senior Nomad
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The mexican government took away all the guns from individuals about thirty years ago. Now the cartel guys have tons of them. This is why we should
never pass gun control here in the States. From all the violence going on by the bad guys down south, it might be worth it to try to sneak an AK 47
through. That would sure give them something to think about. A couple of RPG's would work pretty good too. I just hate getting attacked with nothing
in my hand but my chile pepper.
If there is no fishing in heaven, I am not going
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Oso
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?Ay que ignom?nia, morir con el chile en la mano!
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Oso
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Crime Stats
Interesting article found on the way to looking up Mexican gun laws. That violent crime is on the rise is nobody's imagination, it's fact. What may
be surprising here is that the percentage of violent criminals in the general population is higher in BC, BCS and Sonora than it is in Sinaloa (often
considered the center of the drug trade etc.) and for that matter, almost anywhere else in Mexico.
http://www.coparmex.org.mx/contenidos/publicaciones/Entorno/...
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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Oso
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This is about the clearest thing in English I've found on the subject. Wanna risk taking a piece to Mexico? Make it a .380 and carry an extra $1,000
USD in traveler's checks for the fine if you get caught. (Better than 30 years for a shell casing under the floormat.)
This is an entry from Guns in American Society: An Encyclopedia of History, Politics, Culture, and the Law. For a Spanish translation of this
article, please click here: en Espa?ol.
Mexico
By David B. Kopel
The Mexican Constitution guarantees the right of Mexicans to possess arms. Even so, gun control laws in Mexico are very strict, and police discretion
in enforcement makes possession of firearms of greater than .22 very difficult.
The Cinco de Mayo celebration, commemorating Mexico?s 1867 victory against French colonialists enjoys a little-known tie to American firearms. Before
the French Emperor Napoleon III overthrew the Mexican government in 1863, Benito Ju?rez had been serving as President of Mexico. When the French
occupied Mexico City, he set up a resistance movement in northern Mexico. There, he ordered 1,000 Winchester Model 1866 carbines in .44 caliber, to be
delivered to Monterrey, along with 500 cartridges per gun. The Ju?rez forces paid $57,000 in silver coin. ?R.M.? - for ?Republic of Mexico? - was
inscribed on the frames of the carbines. Today, ?Juarez Winchesters? are very valuable collectors items.
In Death by Government (Transaction, 1994), R.J. Rummel estimates that between 1900 and 1920, various Mexican governments killed over 1.4 million
people, through slave labor, executions, and other means, not including the hundreds of thousands more who died at the hands of rebels or from other
war-related causes.
A new constitution, adopted in 1917, at last recognized a right to arms. Article 10 of the Mexican Constitution, as amended, states:
?The inhabitants of the United Mexican States have the right to possess arms in their homes for their security and legitimate defense with the
exception of those prohibited by federal law and of those reserved for the exclusive use of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and National Guard. Federal law
shall determine the cases, conditions and place in which the inhabitants may be authorized to bear arms.?
In the middle of the twentieth century, firearms laws and their enforcement had become liberal enough so that Mexico was a popular hunting destination
for Americans, and Mexican hunters could invent a new shooting sport. ?Silhouette shooting? - shooting at metal silhouette targets in the shape of
game animals -originated in Mexico in the early 1950s. Mexican hunters were looking for ways to sharpen their eyes between hunting seasons, and so
began shooting at live animals who had been placed on a high ridgeline, visible in silhouette from hundreds of yards away. Whoever shot the animal
would win a prize. American hunters near the Mexican border - most notably the Tuscon Rifle Club -- adopted the sport, but used life-sized metal
targets instead - hence the sport?s name of ?Siluetas Metalicas.?
The sport originally used high-power rifles to shoot at metal silhouettes of wild chickens, javelinas, turkeys, sheep, and other game. In the 1970s,
the National Rifle Association put silhouette shooting into its competition schedule, and created separate classes for smallbore rifle (.22), air
rifles, and both smallbore and centerfire handguns. This allowed the competitions to take place on much smaller ranges than the 500 meter ranges which
had been standard for the high-power event. Since then, the sport has spread worldwide, and many competitive shooters specialize in silhouette
competition. ?Siluetas Metalicas? remains the proper name for silhouette shooting with high-power rifles (6mm and up).
In Mexico as in the United States, civil unrest in 1968 led to important new restrictions on firearms. Before then, many types of rifles and handguns
were freely available. Anti-government student movements, however, scared the government into closing firearms stores, and registering all weapons.
Compliance with the registration has been very low.
Today, notwithstanding the constitutional right, arms possession in Mexico is severely restricted by a wide network of laws. Article 160 of the
Federal Penal Code authorizes government employees to carry guns. Article 161 requires a license to carry or sell handguns. Article 162 provides
penalties for violations, and also bans the stockpiling of arms without permission. Article 163 states that handguns may only be sold by mercantile
establishments, not by individuals. Further, handgun carry permit applicants must post a bond, must prove their need, and must supply five character
references.
The most important gun laws are contained in the Federal Law of Firearms and Explosives. It establishes a Federal Arms Registry controlled by the
Ministry of National Defense. Both the federal and state governments are required to conduct public information campaigns to discourage all forms of
weapons ownership and carrying. Only sports-related advertising of firearms is permitted.
Title Two of the Federal Law of Firearms allows possession and carrying of handguns in a calibers of .380 or less, although some calibers are
excluded, most notably .357 magnum and 9mm parabellum.
Members of agricultural collectives and other rural workers are allowed to carry the aforesaid handguns, .22 rifles, and shotguns, as long as they
stay outside of urban areas, and obtain a license.
Hunters and target shooters may obtain licenses for the above types of firearms, as well as higher-powered rifles. There are a variety of exceptions
for particular guns, detailed in the Library of Congress volume cited at the end of this entry. Gun collecting is allowed, with a license and
registration. Possession of firearms for home defense is legally permitted. All guns must be registered with the Ministry of National Defense within
30 days of acquisition. Licensees may only buy ammunition for the caliber of gun for which they are licensed.
In practice, possession of firearms above .22 caliber is severely restricted. As with much of the rest of Mexican law enforcement, corruption is a
major element of the gun licensing system.
Because government permits are difficult to obtain, there is a thriving market in smuggled handguns from the United States. One effort to control
smuggling was Operation Forward Trace, conducted in the 1990s by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. BATF agents examined federal gun
registration documents (Form 4473) held on file at gun stores in southwestern states, and recorded the names and addresses of buyers - especially
those with Hispanic names - who had purchased self-loading rifles or inexpensive handguns. BATF then contacted the purchasers, and demanded to know
where the guns were.
In July 2001, U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft and Mexican Attorney General Rafael Macedo de la Concha announced a cooperative law enforcement
program, aimed partly at weapons smuggling. Mexican police would provide computerized information about seized firearms to the US Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) so that BATF can trace the guns. for criminal investigation. Ashcroft also assigned US prosecutors in districts bordering
Mexico to serve as contacts on gun smuggling cases.
Even government agencies, frustrated with the Defense Ministry, sometimes smuggle in their own weapons from the U.S.
In August 1985, the army -- using the pretext of a routine inspection -- confiscated the weapons of the Juarez police. Many observers believed the
confiscation took place because the city government was controlled by PAN, the leading opposition party. Guns confiscated by the police or the
military often end up on the black market.
In 1994, Mexico had a total homicide rate of 17.6 per 100,000 population. Of these homicides, 9.9 were by firearm, and 7.7 by other means. Mexican law
enforcement against violent crime is widely regarded as ineffectual and dishonest.
Temporary gun licenses for sporting purposes may be issued to tourists. Mexican law provides penalties of at least five to as many as 30 years in
prison for tourists who attempt to bring a firearm, or even a single round of ammunition, into Mexico without prior permission. In the past, the law
was enforced stringently, even in cases where the violation was accidental. In December 1998, however, the Mexican Congress enacted legislation
relaxing the law for first-time, unintentional violations involving only a single gun. Now, first-timers will be fined $1,000, but not imprisoned. The
exemption does not apply for military weapons or calibers - which by Mexican law means any handgun above .380 in caliber, as well as a wide variety of
rifles.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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bajalou
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9mm wepons are reserver for the Army only. Or so a Army Colonel once told me at one of their checkpoints.
No Bad Days
\"Never argue with an idiot. People watching may not be able to tell the difference\"
\"The trouble with doing nothing is - how do I know when I\'m done?\"
Nomad Baja Interactive map
And in the San Felipe area - check out Valle Chico area |
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Oso
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalou
9mm wepons are reserver for the Army only. Or so a Army Colonel once told me at one of their checkpoints. |
True. Also .45 ACP= Police or military only. Most popular caliber, legal or not, among Mexican Civilians continues to be .38 "Super". Anyone with
a 9 is probably "involved" and couldn't care less about legality. Most Mexican deer hunters go for the .270 or .243, no 30.06, 7mm or any other
caliber ever used by any military force anywhere, ever.
When I lived in the D.F. in the early 60's I used to pass by several nice arms dealers on Madero between San Juan de Letran and the Zocalo. They
would have many nice rifles and shotguns and hunting gear in the windows. After 1968, they sold pellet guns. The town square in my wife's hometown
of Ixmiquilpan, Hgo., used to be a delightful place. It had many tall trees, full of chattering birds, with shady spots to sit out of the desert sun,
with a fountain and a not too well made statue of some Spaniard who had been a benefactor to the town in the Viceroy period. After '68, they wiped
out all the trees, replaced the old statue with a small copy of the D.F. Diana and left a flat, open plaza baking in the sun with a few uninviting
cast iron benches. I was told that this created a clear field of fire from the Presidencia Municipal, where the old trees would have provided cover
for insurgents. After '68, the government became and obviously remains, afraid of the people.
All my childhood I wanted to be older. Now I\'m older and this chitn sucks.
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QuePasaBaja
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From severl local business men here in Rosarito beach, you, as an american can obtain a permit to have a fire arm. A .38 cal or less. It is costly
etc. Now if you get your mexican citizen ship, I hear that it is a lot cheaper.
Dont forget that one of the very best ways to protect your property is a big Dog.
Have a Baja Day
QuePasaBaja
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Cypress
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Capt. Sharkey expresses my sentiments.
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MrBillM
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.38 Super Auto
For many years, Colt produced the M1911 in .38 Super Auto, but it never sold well in the U.S. I had always wondered why it was kept in production and
the answer turned out to be Latin America. I once asked a Mexican policeman about his Colt .45 and he told me that it (and the others) were .38 Super
Auto. A few years back, a Cuban expatriate friend of mine told me the same thing about Cuba. The Colt in Super Auto was the most popular sidearm
among the police and armed forces. I've always wondered Why ?
Why not .45 or 9mm ? I've never gotten an authoritative answer.
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BajaBruno
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The .38 super is essentially an autoloading .357 magnum. It has ballistics that are identical in all important respects to the .357 Sig and the 9mm
Winchester Magnum. As such, it is a far better defense round than the 9mm. Not wanting to start a fight, I won't speculate as to its comparative
worth next to the venerable .45 ACP.
As for private handgun ownership in Mexico, the many Mexican attorneys (who all live in Mexico City) in my wife’s family tell me that any
non-prohibited Mexican can possess a registered handgun in their home. It used to be one handgun, but the law was recently liberalized to two.
I have a good friend who owns bird hunting camps in Tamaulipas state with exclusively American hunters and he seems to be able to easily get the
necessary permits for everyone to go out and shoot unmolested.
Christopher Bruno, Elk Grove, CA.
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BajaBruno
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BTW, your post was very informative, Oso. Thanks for the education. It's always nice to know the history of the situation.
Christopher Bruno, Elk Grove, CA.
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The squarecircle
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Gun possession by Mexican nat'ls
| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
For many years, Colt produced the M1911 in .38 Super Auto, but it never sold well in the U.S. I had always wondered why it was kept in production and
the answer turned out to be Latin America. I once asked a Mexican policeman about his Colt .45 and he told me that it (and the others) were .38 Super
Auto. A few years back, a Cuban expatriate friend of mine told me the same thing about Cuba. The Colt in Super Auto was the most popular sidearm
among the police and armed forces. I've always wondered Why ?
Why not .45 or 9mm ? I've never gotten an authoritative answer. |
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The squarecircle
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Greetings MrBillM
It is a matter of advantages versus disadvantages in my humble non-authoritative opinion.
1. M1911 .38 Super Auto hold two extra rounds more than the .45.
2. .38 super Auto is a lighter piece when fully loaded, therefore a better
handling equalizer.
3. The Super is an easier carry, being lighter.
4. The Super has much less recoil and is easier to hold on point making it
a fine handling item.
5. .38 Super Auto has better penetration. Will go Thur a flak vest. .45
will NOT.
6. .38 Super Auto has a much better trajectory, flatter, more accurate, and
more projectile speed and energy at increased distances.
7. Rounds cost less.
8. The smaller light weight Commandos are a better concealment piece.
9. The light weight Commandos bring a premumin on both sides of the line
and are considered by many to be better insurance policy.
10. the Mexican got it right.
Be as safe as you can. >>>>>>>>>> Best Ragards, sq.
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MrBillM
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.45ACP No Question
The .45ACP has shown to be the superior Knockdown round time and again, beginning with the Philippines. The one disadvantage to the round was it made
for a fairly large grip in a stacked magazine design. Glock came out with the slightly shorter .45GAP with identical ballistics to overcome that
problem.
It is significant that the U.S. Military has gone back to the .45ACP for their elite services and is accepting bids on a new pistol to be chambered
in that round. Originally, the proposed bidding was to be for two versions of the pistol, one for general use and one for the elite forces. However,
they have since revised it to apply only for Special Services. The pistol for general usage was to be a double-action, which disqualified the M1911
design. However, the elite forces design was to be either single or double-action, so maybe the Colt is back in the running. Wouldn't that be a kick
?
Speaking of Mexican gun laws, I always wondered what had happened to all of the Gun Clubs I would see out shooting on their ranges just below
Mexicali. They used to be packed on the weekends, but they've all been dead and gone for quite a few years. Those were in existence into the 80s.
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BajaBruno
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Hahaha! Oh, SquareCircle, you are braver than me! I told you that dissing the 1911, or 45 ACP would start a fight! Venture into that toxic pond
only at your own peril. Personally, I got rid of all my Gov't 45's in M1911 and Commander when I felt the Sig Sauer version was better.
The Sig factory, on a federal purchase order, did a special law enforcement accurizing job for me, and the gun shot wonderfully for about 300 rounds
when it began to jam for no particular reason, just like the Colt Officer’s ACP I used to have. I never did figure it out and I just don’t shoot it
anymore. I always liked that .38 Super, though. It’s downfall was that nobody ever made any decent ammo for it.
Christopher Bruno, Elk Grove, CA.
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MrBillM
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Well, I guess.
That Bajabruno has a more authoritative view of the .45ACP than the U.S. Government, who after analysis of the problems (especially for Special
Forces) resulting from adoption of the 9mm, have made the decision to return to that cartridge. It does seem unlikely, though.
As far as reliability goes, I can count on my fingers the number of failures I have experienced with a clean M1911A1 during 35 years+ of use with all
sorts of ammo, excepting "Blazer" crap. I'd say that's good enough.
Concerning the "Officers" model (and the Commander), it has been written up on a number of occasions in different Gun Publications, that the .45ACP
ballistics suffer significantly as the barrel length is reduced. With the Commander, the reduced barrel length (5.03" vs 4.25") doesn't reduce the
overall unit enough to justify it's use as a concealed carry.
BUT, Firearms designs and calibers are like pretty women. The Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I own handguns chambered in .22, .357 magnum, .38 Special, .380 auto, 9mm parabellum and .45ACP. They all have their uses and I'd rather have any of
them in a dangerous situation than none.
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