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Eli
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Posts: 1471
Registered: 8-26-2003
Location: L.B. Baja Sur
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Mood: Some times Observing, sometimes Oblivious.
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Toneart, I suggest that if a U.S./Mexico work exchange program existed, that it should go both ways.
I think the U.S. favorite reason for not letting Mexicans come work; is that takes away work from U.S. citizens. Same as Mexico doesn't want U.S.
workers because they say they will take work away from the Mexicans.
Well, I don't see much of an issue on either side. As in general the Mexican's are doing the work up North that no gringo wants to do. And it is a
rare gringo that will take the cut in pay and work their tail off in order to take on a job in Mexico.
On a daily basis, I made 4 times as much as a waitress in a little railroader’s cafe up there as I did for the first 10 years running my construction
company here.
As a waitress, I went home after my 8 hour shift; it was a gravy cruise, no stress.
As a contractor here, there were times that I was responsible up the ying yang for as many as 160 guys and 12 projects, I worked 16 hour days, and
dreamt construction when I slept. It was an arse kicker stress wise. I am oh so glad I did it, but most people would wonder why, (it was simply
because here is home, where my heart belongs, and always was, that was my prime motivator). It is so much easier to make the bucks state side and than
come down here to retire.
When my daughter had just finished high school, and decided she wanted to come home and work in the family business; I hired her under the condition
that she start with sweeping floors, washing dishes and helping the crew cook cut potatoes, and such. The Kid accepted and worked hard and watched all
those around her, and she is smart and she learned, and well, one day she showed me how to work the bookkeeping more efficient than our bookkeeper
ever dreamed of doing, so he was out and she didn’t have to cut potatoes anymore. Than she showed me how she could draw cleaner plans than our
Architect ever thought of doing, and so she taught someone else to do the books and took over on design. And, than one day, she showed me how much
better she could run our company than I could and so I happily retired. Now, she is an amazing boss with homegrown skills, organized, artistic talent,
inspiration, humane, man she is the best…. I could just go on and on, I am so proud of her. But she is a rare bird; there are not too many folks out
there who could pull off what she did.
On the other hand, that day so many years ago when she first came home, she brought this poor little ol Pocho boyfriend with her all the way from
Oregon. Typical Mom, I didn't think he deserved her, but as she did, I did the only thing I could to get rid of him; I hired him as a Peon, he was
gone within two weeks, whew....... that worked good, it takes a special soul to want to work down here.
Nope, I don't think we have to worry about gringos taking over the work force of Mexico, or the States either for that matter; After all one can make
a lot more money on welfare with better benefits, than Ya ever would shaking crab in a fishery on the Northern Coast of California, or picking
cherries, or working at MacDonald’s etc., etc.., and that is what most of your imported from Mexico workers do.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
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Jobs Gringos won't do ?
Hm !
News coverage of the last ICE raid on the Swift Meat-Packing Plants noted that, after the previous raid, the company filled ALL of the vacated
positions with LEGAL workers the NEXT day.
[Edited on 7-28-2007 by MrBillM]
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 7-23-2006
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Eli,
I agree with your assessment of the reciprocal work subject. It takes a special motivation (and person) to endure what you have and make it a success.
Then your daughter comes along and does it better. I'm sure that her motivation was her role model. I notice you live in Chiapas. San Cristobal de las
Casas was one of the places in Mexico. I also spent a lot of time in Guatemala in the 1970's and was in the big temblor of 1976. Are you Pocha? When
did you arrive there? Do you visit Baja? What is your connection with Baja? You can U2U me if you don't want to continue here. It looks like this
thread has biodegraded into hotdogs anyway. I'm relieved because I was afraid that the heavy lifting caused by some deep thinking might just cause us
all to tip over. 
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
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Mood: Wondering what is next???
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"if a U.S./Mexico work exchange program existed, that it should go both ways."
I concur...but how do you envision it working?
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
Hm !
News coverage of the last ICE raid on the Swift Meat-Packing Plants noted that, after the previous raid, the company filled ALL of the vacated
positions with LEGAL workers the NEXT day.
[Edited on 7-28-2007 by MrBillM] |
Glad to hear it. They should be legal.That is the rule of law. Do you take from this that the workers who replaced the illegals had formerly been
shut out of the work opportunity by illegals? Did Swift have to raise the wage scale?
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Stickers
Senior Nomad
Posts: 572
Registered: 4-12-2006
Location: SoCal
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Eli
Nope, I don't think we have to worry about gringos taking over the work force of Mexico, or the States either for that matter;
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Great post Eli but I enjoyed the above sentence whether or not it was intentional. 
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Al G
"if a U.S./Mexico work exchange program existed, that it should go both ways."
I concur...but how do you envision it working? |
I think "work exchange program" is not an accurate label, even though we have let it slide during this discussion. "Work exchange" sounds like a
government program, like a "student exchange" program. What we are talking about would have to begin by Mexico allowing legal alien residents to work
while living there. As stated before, it is doubtful that the flow would be anywhere near equal in both directions, simply due to market conditions
and wage standards. There are those who, by special personal motivations, would want to or have to work while living in Mexico. As to the flow of
immigrant workers into the U.S (land of opportunity), a guest worker program would have to be implemented in order to identify and control the
multitudes and establish an orderly distribution of assignments. Of course, as MrBillM seems to believe, this wouldn't be necessary because there is
no demand. O'Reilly, er I mean, Oh really now. 
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Dave
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6005
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
What we are talking about would have to begin by Mexico allowing legal alien residents to work while living there. |
I've not known of a single legal alien who was refused a work permit. If a Mexican company wants to hire you Migra is gonna give the permission.
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TMW
Select Nomad
Posts: 10659
Registered: 9-1-2003
Location: Bakersfield, CA
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If your not Hispanic your chances of getting a job picking anything in CA is pretty poor. Most of these field workers do not speak much english and
the people that hire them only hire spanish speakers. The largest operations usually hire straight out except for certain times of the year. For the
rest they are hired thru a third party. The whole thing is pretty much controlled by the UFW whether they are union or not, they set the guidelines.
When I had young part timers working for me (high school and college) many told me they tried to get summer jobs working the fields but were not hired
because they didn't fit in. When I asked what they meant they said they weren't Mexican.
The construction trade was full of illegals because they would work for less. I say was because with the down turn in housing the need is not as it
was. Many of the illegals work for the subcontractors.
The ideal that an illegal is only taking jobs americans won't take is a bunch of crap. It's what some people want you to think to make it look better
or to justify what they're doing. I'll bet the fence company in San Diego that got caught using illegals was not paying them prevailing wages but
something less so they could make more profit. Some of these contractors will low ball a job bid then hire illegals because they don't pay the going
wages. That hurts the honest contractors who do pay better wages and benefits.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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I didn't realize the word Pocho/Pocha was acceptable in a PC world.
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wondering what is next???
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
| Quote: | Originally posted by Al G
"if a U.S./Mexico work exchange program existed, that it should go both ways."
I concur...but how do you envision it working? |
I think "work exchange program" is not an accurate label, even though we have let it slide during this discussion. "Work exchange" sounds like a
government program, like a "student exchange" program. What we are talking about would have to begin by Mexico allowing legal alien residents to work
while living there. As stated before, it is doubtful that the flow would be anywhere near equal in both directions, simply due to market conditions
and wage standards. There are those who, by special personal motivations, would want to or have to work while living in Mexico. As to the flow of
immigrant workers into the U.S (land of opportunity), a guest worker program would have to be implemented in order to identify and control the
multitudes and establish an orderly distribution of assignments. Of course, as MrBillM seems to believe, this wouldn't be necessary because
there is no demand. O'Reilly, er I mean, Oh really now.
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OK...say we manage to do this...will it end the illegals crossing the border?
[Edited on 7-28-2007 by Al G]
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
What we are talking about would have to begin by Mexico allowing legal alien residents to work while living there. |
I've not known of a single legal alien who was refused a work permit. If a Mexican company wants to hire you Migra is gonna give the permission.
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Dave,
Why is this an issue in other discussions then?..... "You can't help your neighbor work on his house," etc? If he sponsors you, could you get a work
permit with an FM3? Does your employer have to be a Mexican company? Why do gringo owned businesses have to only hire Mexicans? I really don't know. I
was just responding to others here who raised the issue. If what you say is true, great, no problem.
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
I didn't realize the word Pocho/Pocha was acceptable in a PC world. |
Isn't it? I don't believe it is considered derrogatory, at least it didn't used to be. It was a term that Mexicans used to identify American
born/Mexican Americans. A Pocho/Pocha did feel a lack of acceptance, both in the United States and in Mexico. That caused identity crisis; a sense of
not belonging anywhere. My observation of and conversations with my Mexican American friends traveling or living in Mexico is that the feeling of
acceptance has improved now in Mexico. Political Correctness changes with the times and is hard to keep up with. PC is intended to respect
sensitivities of those who would otherwise be offended. It certainly is not my intention to offend. Dennis do you know that this term is not PC? Can a
Mexican American or a Mexican National enlighten us? If it is derrogatory I will certainly stop using it.
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Al G
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
| Quote: | Originally posted by Al G
"if a U.S./Mexico work exchange program existed, that it should go both ways."
I concur...but how do you envision it working? |
I think "work exchange program" is not an accurate label, even though we have let it slide during this discussion. "Work exchange" sounds like a
government program, like a "student exchange" program. What we are talking about would have to begin by Mexico allowing legal alien residents to work
while living there. As stated before, it is doubtful that the flow would be anywhere near equal in both directions, simply due to market conditions
and wage standards. There are those who, by special personal motivations, would want to or have to work while living in Mexico. As to the flow of
immigrant workers into the U.S (land of opportunity), a guest worker program would have to be implemented in order to identify and control the
multitudes and establish an orderly distribution of assignments. Of course, as MrBillM seems to believe, this wouldn't be necessary because
there is no demand. O'Reilly, er I mean, Oh really now.
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OK...say we manage to do this...will it end the illegals crossing the border?
[Edited on 7-28-2007 by Al G] |
I say yes. The program would devise tamper proof ID cards. Illegals will be more easily segregated. It would satisfy the jobs that go unwanted.
Companies would be severly penelized that hire illegals. If the jobs are filled, market conditions will take care of the problem. Those who can't get
work will leave. Word will reach Mexico and eventually, they will stop coming. This is idyllic, I realize. Setting up a bureaucracy to successfully
implement it is a daunting task. Lots of room for bungling.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
Dennis do you know that this term is not PC? Can a Mexican American or a Mexican National enlighten us? If it is derrogatory I will certainly stop
using it. |
From my understanding of the term, it may be accepted by some northern born Mexicans. I liken that to the US white man accepting the term, "Gringo."
Both terms have a derogatory base.
When Mexican nationals use the term, it is not in brotherly jest. It is a line of demarcation. A term applied to an abomination of perimeters. Mi
tierra o nada.
To add some fuel to the impending conflagration, when "Pochos" return to Mexico for brief periods, for instance the vatos from East L.A. on a three
day visit, some have a tendency to embrace Mexico as their true mother country as though nationalism was mapped in the blood like DNA. They are so
proud to be Mexican when they actually arn't.
In tacitly denying their true mother land, their place of birth, and emotionally adopting the mother land of their ancestors, they are left in a
type of Limbo. I've heard them refered to by Mexicans as "Men without a country."
These people would not like to be called Pocho.
In answer to your question, Tony..........No. I don't think it's PC to use that term. I think it's asking for trouble.
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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wondering what is next???
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| Quote: | | Quote: | OK...say we manage to do this...will it end the illegals crossing the border?
[Edited on 7-28-2007 by Al G] |
I say yes. The program would devise tamper proof ID cards. Illegals will be more easily segregated. It would satisfy the jobs that go unwanted.
Companies would be severly penelized that hire illegals. If the jobs are filled, market conditions will take care of the problem. Those who can't get
work will leave. Word will reach Mexico and eventually, they will stop coming. This is idyllic, I realize. Setting up a bureaucracy to successfully
implement it is a daunting task. Lots of room for bungling. |
You have a reasonable concept...it will be in part or whole the system that will be used. IMO. The weak point here is tamper proof ID
cards they are still having difficulty keeping people from counterfeiting our money...Makes me think we will still need "Da Fence"...but I
believe someday all will rejoice when we can tear it down...
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TW
If your not Hispanic your chances of getting a job picking anything in CA is pretty poor. Most of these field workers do not speak much english and
the people that hire them only hire spanish speakers. The largest operations usually hire straight out except for certain times of the year. For the
rest they are hired thru a third party. The whole thing is pretty much controlled by the UFW whether they are union or not, they set the guidelines.
When I had young part timers working for me (high school and college) many told me they tried to get summer jobs working the fields but were not hired
because they didn't fit in. When I asked what they meant they said they weren't Mexican.
The construction trade was full of illegals because they would work for less. I say was because with the down turn in housing the need is not as it
was. Many of the illegals work for the subcontractors.
The ideal that an illegal is only taking jobs americans won't take is a bunch of crap. It's what some people want you to think to make it look better
or to justify what they're doing. I'll bet the fence company in San Diego that got caught using illegals was not paying them prevailing wages but
something less so they could make more profit. Some of these contractors will low ball a job bid then hire illegals because they don't pay the going
wages. That hurts the honest contractors who do pay better wages and benefits. |
Discrimination is despicable wherever it turns up, and in The United States it is illegal in the workplace. Not fitting in is another matter. That is
cultural and that's a hard barrier to break through and it is very intimidating. Good for you, hiring young high school and college kids.
I disagree with when you say "illegals are only taking jobs that Americans don't want is a bunch of crap." However, that may well be your personal
experience. I am not here to invalidate your(or anybody's) personal experience. I do agree with you that some employers take illegals because they
will work for less wages. That is a shame and needs to stop. I have said in other threads that the Construction Industry needs to regulate itself. An
employer has a right to cut costs by paying low wages, but not at the expense of cutting quality or safety. Construction needs to set job
qualification standards for skilled positions. Workers, no matter who they are, should have training available through manditory, stringent apprentice
tiers, community college programs or ROP. Unskilled positions need to be filled by whomever is available legally.
I believe that the advent of illegals coming here and working is actually condoned by Corporate America, but when pressed, deny it. It is in fact, a
source of cheap labor and definitely helps improve the bottom line. I also believe that most citizens of the United States don't condone the practice.
It is a real conflict of interest, legally and morally. I wonder if they realize that if illegals were to stop coming and taking jobs, that the costs
of goods and services would drastically go up for everybody? I suspect they would waffle and stammer about their moral attitudes, (which have become
highly politicized) when the fit hits the shan.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
I wonder if they realize that if illegals were to stop coming and taking jobs, that the costs of goods and services would drastically go up for
everybody? |
So what? We consume too much anyway
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DENNIS
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
I wonder if they realize that if illegals were to stop coming and taking jobs, that the costs of goods and services would drastically go up for
everybody? |
So what? We consume too much anyway |
Exactly!
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
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Higher Prices ?
The rise in prices would be insignificant.
Even in labor-intensive agriculture, the estimated increase in overall retail cost would be around five percent.
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