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Al G
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 2647
Registered: 12-19-2004
Location: Todos Santos/Full time for now...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wondering what is next???
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| Quote: | Construction Industry needs to regulate itself. An employer has a right to cut costs by paying low wages, but not at the expense of cutting quality or
safety. Construction needs to set job qualification standards for skilled positions. Workers, no matter who they are, should have
training available through manditory, stringent tamper proof ID cards tiers, community op. I have said in other threads that the college programs or
ROP. Unskilled positions need to be filled by whomever is available legally.
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As someone who has spent near 40 years in construction, I can tell you the industry has always regulated itself...until the wages fell out the bottom.
I came through the system with 3 year at Delta college
construction apprentice Program...I now earn a living as a consultant/witness and repairing screwed up jobs.
A quality Contractor pay an average $50 per hour. The rest is in the $10 range...I am seldom ever called to help with a quality contractor.
The problem here is everyone want it for cheap (they do pay the price when I get there) it is now causing an exodus of quality. By the time most of
the homeowners understands what is happening all the quality will be gone...it is a disaster...degrading everyday.
I will say I know one contractor who has a all Mexican crew and they are all quality craftmen...never have asked his pay scale.
Illegals will not go to school...will not learn by apprentice, because they are all both at the top and at the bottom...with no one to learn from. By
the time they screwed up enough to learn by trial and error the home owners will have had enough and the Mexicans will have a very bad name and their
wage structure will never go up. I do feel sad for them...
Training was always mandatory...until the illegals showed up.
If the disparity of wages was not 4 to 1 this would have never happened...American greed has no boundry.
We need to fix this...not for the gringo, but for the Mexican...
At this point I don't know if I am agreeing with you or not  
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
The rise in prices would be insignificant.
Even in labor-intensive agriculture, the estimated increase in overall retail cost would be around five percent. |
Where do you get that statistic? And be careful of using statistics in skewing an opinion; not that they can't be used correctly; it's just that they
can be manipulated. Now, do you arrive at your 5% figure by logic? Are you saying that a fair wage, if not exploiting illegals, should only be raised
by 5%?
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
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| Quote: | | Quote: | Originally posted by Al G
Construction Industry needs to regulate itself. An employer has a right to cut costs by paying low wages, but not at the expense of cutting quality or
safety. Construction needs to set job qualification standards for skilled positions. Workers, no matter who they are, should have
training available through manditory, stringent tamper proof ID cards tiers, community op. I have said in other threads that the college programs or
ROP. Unskilled positions need to be filled by whomever is available legally.
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As someone who has spent near 40 years in construction, I can tell you the industry has always regulated itself...until the wages fell out the bottom.
I came through the system with 3 year at Delta college
construction apprentice Program...I now earn a living as a consultant/witness and repairing screwed up jobs.
A quality Contractor pay an average $50 per hour. The rest is in the $10 range...I am seldom ever called to help with a quality contractor.
The problem here is everyone want it for cheap (they do pay the price when I get there) it is now causing an exodus of quality. By the time most of
the homeowners understands what is happening all the quality will be gone...it is a disaster...degrading everyday.
I will say I know one contractor who has a all Mexican crew and they are all quality craftmen...never have asked his pay scale.
Illegals will not go to school...will not learn by apprentice, because they are all both at the top and at the bottom...with no one to learn from. By
the time they screwed up enough to learn by trial and error the home owners will have had enough and the Mexicans will have a very bad name and their
wage structure will never go up. I do feel sad for them...
Training was always mandatory...until the illegals showed up.
If the disparity of wages was not 4 to 1 this would have never happened...American greed has no boundry.
We need to fix this...not for the gringo, but for the Mexican...
At this point I don't know if I am agreeing with you or not
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You are....I think.
We don't want illegals to go to our schools.
I used to teach English as a Second Language to latino immigrants in San Diego.
They were learning on behalf of the U.S. Government; Pell grants. They were the most ambitious, grateful students I have ever had. They knew that they
were opening the door to success, getting out of the fields, getting better jobs, putting food on the table for their families. The benefit to the
U.S. is that they moved into the mainstream of our society, cut down on crime and they paid higher taxes. The private sector and unions could also
partner with the government to help out.
Yes, it was paid for through our taxes, but I witnessed many of their successes as they came back to find me, or if I would run into them on the
street years later.
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Mexitron
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3397
Registered: 9-21-2003
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy!
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MrBillM
The rise in prices would be insignificant.
Even in labor-intensive agriculture, the estimated increase in overall retail cost would be around five percent. |
I've heard that 5% figure used before...in certain types of agriculture it may well be true since its largely mechanized now. But I have a hard time
believing the construction trade rates would only rise 5%. The Mexican community has been the backbone of the latest housing boom, like it or not. A
labor shortage there should drive labor costs higher(given a robust economy that is...if we go into recession then rates may not rise that much).
No, I don't have stats to back it up, just my hunch.
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MrBillM
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 21656
Registered: 8-20-2003
Location: Out and About
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's a Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah Day
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Picker Pay
It is unquestionable that the percentage of "Stoop" labor varies with the crop. According to the Department of Agriculture, the total amount of
labor costs represented by ALL hired labor (every level) at the farm varies from a low of around 14 % to a high of 27 % with Vegetables and fruits
representing 21 %.
The National average paid for Farm Labor is 60.5 % of the average paid for non-farm labor. The OVERALL posited increase of 5 % for ALL farm products
may, or may not, be optimistic. You'd have to look at how they crunched those numbers. In labor-intensive agriculture, 10 percent may be a
more likely figure.
Since the TOTAL paid to Farmers represents less than 50 percent of the Retail price ( 34 to 47 with livestock being the highest), that would appear to
factor ALL hired farm labor i.e. for vegetables, at around 10 percent of the Retail price. A DOUBLING of the wage paid in that case would, by itself,
result in a 10 % increase in the price of vegetables. Less in other crops, more in livestock products. However, it is highly unlikely that the
livestock segment would see such an increase since they are already better paid and, as a percentage, have a lower use of "illegal" labor.
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CaboRon
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3401
Registered: 3-24-2007
Location: The Valley of the Moon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Peacefull
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Mexitron
| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
I'm feeling like the teacher in Blackboard Jungle. Maybe I'm wasting my time in this environment. |
toneart--Its a divisive issue for many folks but your above post was a reasonable solution to the mess.
Woody--talk with South Texans about a border fence--about how their livestock won't have access to Rio Grande water anymore(from small to very large
wealthy ranchers like the Moodys); from environmentalists about how putting up the fence will completely block off a massive wildlife corridor. About
how many Texans think its a slap in the face to their friends below the border; you'd think with Texas' overabundance of patriotism that they'd be the
first to put up a fence--not so... ...a fence sounds simple...maybe in some places it will work but its not an easy blanket solution .
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Mexitron,
Thank you for bringing up a very valid issue. This whole thing with the fence is much more complicated than it first appears. Human issues
are involved, peoples lives and livelyhoods are involved. We need a reasoned and practical response, not an emotional one, although deep
emotional issues are congured here, as well as issues of national pride (on both sides of the border) ... and the everwidening gap (even in the US)
between the rich and the poor.
Just a few thoughts, CaboRon
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toneart
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4901
Registered: 7-23-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: Skeptical
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Hot dogs not served at this table
Now that the hot dogs have departed, we are really getting some good discourse.
In grappling with important, albeit divisive subject matter, we all have the opportunity to give expression to our beliefs, knowledge and emotions.
When the emotions are constructively channeled, we all take away from this banquet more than we brought.
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DENNIS
Platinum Nomad
Posts: 29510
Registered: 9-2-2006
Location: Punta Banda
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
Now that the hot dogs have departed, we all take away from this banquet more than we brought. |
Oh yeah? What good is a banquet without a pile of bacon wrapped hot dogs?
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