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landyacht318
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In an earlier post I mentioned how I should have used a heavier gauge cable between my panel and batteries for my MPPT charge controller.
I just hooked up the connections last night, and at noon today my charge controller monitor was claiming an input of 7.4 amps and an output of 8.3
amps at 110 deg f panel temp and an 80 degree ambient temp with about 75% left in the batteries.
As my panel is only rated at 7.39 amps I don't think I'd benefit from the cost and labor or running 8awg cable (currently 12awg) from panel to
batterybank.
Even when my fridge is running It still is putting out over 5 amps, and with my extra insulation I've got it down to a 35% duty cycle at 90 deg
ambient.
No more packing up camp and running to town for a five day supply of ice!
Who hooooooo!
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MrBillM
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The Last Word on MPPT ?
No, I'm sure it won't be.
However, the following detailed testing of the Outback offers a great deal of information regarding the Charge Characteristics. It doesn't address
High-Temperature operation, BUT other docs I've read acknowledge that the MPPT advantage is Zero at peak temps around 120. Around
100 degrees, it is said to work out to around 2-5 % and the value increases as the temperature drops, realizing its higer potential in cooler months
when the additional charge is most valued.
I would continue to posit that a year-round advantage of 5 % or higher in a nominal 60 amp array would be cost-effective versus additional panel
supplement.
One additional possible advantage to the controller is that the panels in a new array can be wired for a higher voltage (up to 140 VDC) while still
realizing 12 or 24 output from the Controller.
===============================================================
From Wind-Sun Tech Forum:
"Considering all that the MX60 has been around for >4 years and that the XW is new, I’d hope that the XW is a better product. Early MX60’s
apparently suffered from cooling fan failures, so the XW’s passive cooling and higher operating temperature spec is an improvement.
Both are rated at 60 A continuous and include a DC-DC stepdown feature. I like the MX60’s range of user configurability. I don’t know how the XW
compares. The XW is certified to FCC class B emissions specs, while the MX60 is not. I’ve heard of but a very few EMI/RFI issues with the MX60, so I
don’t know if that’s a real issue. One XW spec I've not seen is power efficiency; the MX60's efficiency graphs are included in its manual.
Virtually all of an off-grid charge controller’s MPPT benefit is realized in the bulk charging stage. The XW’s continuous MPPT is technically superior
to “sweep and sleep”, or “occasional tracking”. However, I’ve not yet seen a demonstration or a study that suggests any significant practical benefit.
Despite being a great controller, the legacy MX60 contains a few quirks. One is that it operates at a fixed “MPP” percentage when the output current
is less that 5 A. The default setting is 77%, which I think is too low, as it does not result in maximum output current, which, after all, is the goal
of MPPT. But, this setting easy enough to change, and I set my MX60 at 85%, which seems to work well enough.
The apparent major quirk, and this is a specific issue criticized by the new competition, is that the MX60’s output power drops to zero on occasion.
Specifically, the MPPT output current briefly drops to zero once every three hours when operating in Mode 1 or Mode 2 to perform a calibration check.
The "zero power" (energy) penalty for either of these two operational modes is not too difficult to gauge. Assuming that each Mode 1 or 2 restart
lasts 15 seconds, and that output current ranges from zero A to 40 A in an essentially linear manner during that period, then the energy penalty will
be (15 sec. / 3600 sec./hr) x (40 A - ((0 A + 40 A) / 2)) = 0.083 Ah. In a 48 V system operating at 56 V, that’s ~5 Wh. If this Mode 1 or 2 restart
occurs twice during bulk MPPT mode, the penalty is 0.167 Ah, or ~10 Wh.
Note that Mode 1 or 2 can be user set for Mode 0, which will limit the full restart sweeps to the morning wakeup routine and eliminate this penalty.
A perhaps larger issue is that the MX60’s output current drops -- but not to zero -- briefly during its periodic mini-sweeps. Assuming using the ½-90%
sweep range causes output current to vary between 25 A and 40 A, that a mini-sweep occurs every six minutes and last 10 seconds, and that the bulk
(MPPT) charge stage lasts 5 hours, the energy penalty would be ((10 sec /sweep) / 3600 sec/hr) x (40 A - ((25 A + 40 A)/2)) x (10 sweeps/hr) x 5 hrs =
1.04 Ah. In a 48 V system operating at 56 V, that’s 58 Wh.
The example above shows that the MX60’s bulk stage sweep operations exact a penalty of about 1.2 Ah/day. In practical terms, it means that a system
delivering 40 A will stay in MPPT mode for an additional two minutes before the controller switches to absorb mode. Another way of looking at the
example above is that the off-grid system would spend two minutes a day less time in Float mode.
It’s also possible that the MX60’s present MPPT algorithm would operate less than optimally in dynamic weather conditions. I’ve not yet tried to
quantify the penalty from such conditions. But, having endlessly poked, prodded, and observed my MX60 over the past ~3 years, my gut feel is that such
an environmental penalty would be a matter of but a few Ah and a few minutes per day, on average. Accordingly, let's say there’s an ~3 Ah total
penalty on a day of variable Sun, passing clouds, and variable winds in the normal occasional sweep mode.
A similar improvement in my system, which rarely delievrs more than 20 of charge current, would amount to ~1-1/2 Ah/day. My system harvests ~100 Ah on
a day that it runs runs in bulk mode for five hours, so that could mean an improvement of up to 1-1/2%. And, like like the efficiency benefits of
heavy wires and VRLA batteries, every little bit helps.
So, does continuous MPPT tracking make a difference? Yes, it does. I believe that a tight continuously active MPPT algorithm can reduce the total MPPT
bulk mode energy penalty to below 0.5 Ah per day. If using a “perturb and observe” (PAO) algorithm, the penalty can’t be reduced to zero as the PAO
tracking (increment/decrement PV array voltage, observe effect on output current) will cause regular although minor reductions in output current.
From what I’ve seen, read, and calculated, I’d therefore say that the new continuous MPPT algorithms are evolutionary improvement over the MX60’s
legacy “occasional” MPPT sweep algorithm. And, because they’re possible, continuous tracking algorithms are now expected in the marketplace. Plus, as
we’ve seen, marketing hype will affect customers’ perceptions.
But, does continuous MPPT render the entire MX60 production run (~30,000 units?) obsolete overnight? I’d say no. But, we’ve gone from a situation
where one controller dominated the big controller field to several new continuous MPPT controllers available – or soon to be -- from Apollo, Midnite,
OutBack, and Xantrex."
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Al G
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| Quote: | Originally posted by soulpatch
This is cool stuff. I can't wait to see what's out there in a decade. |
It is called Fuel cells...no way in hell it can be stopped. Is it better then solar???
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Dave
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Fuel cells are BS
| Quote: | Originally posted by Al G
It is called Fuel cells...no way in hell it can be stopped. Is it better then solar??? |
Not in our lifetimes. Production/delivery cost of hydrogen is prohibitive.
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MrBillM
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Tomorrow, Tomorrow, we love you Tomorrow
You're always a day away.
To paraphrase the famous comment regarding U.S. Soccer:
"Fuel Cells are the Energy Source of the Future and they always will be".
Right now it's a technology that would put an entry vehicle price well over $100K and cost more to maintain than other fuel sources.
No doubt, there will be advances, but we won't see them become a consumer product. Our children Might, but don't bet on it.
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Al G
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WoW you guys are really behind the times...I wonder if it is worth the time to bring you up to speed...
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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MrBillM
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Tomorrow, Tomorrow
http://www.fuelcells.org/info/library/QuestionsandAnswers062...
Stating that Fuel Cell Technology will not come into general use for Decades to come, the above paper Promoting
future Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles states that the current Fuel production cost is $3,000/KW at which it is far too expensive. Another paper I read
estimated the 2002 cost at $1000/KW. They estimate (guess) that production costs will be reduced to $225/KW in mass production and eventual target
costs of $30-$50/KW at which point it would be competitive at an effective $1.10 per gallon price (untaxed). An impressive 99 % reduction in
production costs which will be attained by some unknown process.
Disregarding the Infrastructure changes (and costs in the Trillions) needed to supply the product, I'm most fascinated by the spector
of a passenger vehicle carrying Hydrogen in a tank pressurized at 5,000 PSI. A major collision should be impressive.
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Al G
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Mrbill...I can say there are still hurdles, but of this I know...Chevron, BP, Shell are all on the cutting edge of research for infrastructure now.
I cannot take the time to post all now...but will post a couple important ones.
Released today by GM...
General Motors is working at full tilt in an effort to ensure that its fuel cell technology is commercialized as soon as possible, it has been
revealed.
The auto manufacturer has confirmed that hundreds of ordinary consumers could get their hands on fuel cell vehicles through dealerships as early as
2011.
This is, according to USA Today, the most ambitious plan yet by a car maker to bring fuel cell technology to a wider audience.
According to Larry Burns, GM vice president for research and development, the company is being driven not by a determination to focusing on promising
technology but is "working as hard and fast as [it] can for competitive reasons".
Indeed, Mr Burns said he is determined to stay ahead of rivals such as Mercedes-Benz and Honda, who are also pouring money into fuel cell research.
"I'm paranoid enough to conclude (rivals) are running on the same timeline we are," he told the news service.
Heightened competition is good news for consumers as it is likely to speed development of fuel cell technologies.
More soon....
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Al G
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Stockton Ca. My old hometown
M&L Commodities has purchased a 600 kilowatt power plant from FuelCell Energy, it has been announced.
The purchase has been made under the name of the Stockton branch of Inland Cold Storage, a firm which maintains seven warehouses in the state of
Connecticut.
Two direct fuel cell (DFC) units will be located at a warehouse currently being built in Stockton, California which will have a 5,325,000 cubic feet
capacity for refrigerated and frozen storage.
The electricity produced by the power plant will be used to run the warehouse 24 hours a day, seven days a week while the thermal energy generated by
the two DFC300 units will be harnessed to either heat the building's floor or provide absorption chilling.
"We selected DFC fuel cells because they give us ultra-clean, reliable electricity at competitive rates and increase our energy efficiency through
CHP," commented Gary Guesman of Controlled Environments Construction, the project development partner and contractor for M&L/ICS.
"The other solutions we looked at did not match the DFC fuel cell advantages, either in terms of overall cost-of-ownership, 24/7 operation, or
environmental benefits."
The purchase was made with the help of funding provided through California's Self-Generation Incentive Programme and courtesy of a $1.5 million grant
from Pacific Gas & Electric.
© Adfero Ltd
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Al G
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M&A action
Daimler in negotiations ‘to buy Ballard’s auto business’
It has been reported that German car and truck maker Daimler has agreed to buy the automotive fuel cell business of Canada's Ballard Power Systems,
according to business weekly WirtschaftsWoche.
Ballard has responded to the story by confirming that it has been reviewing strategic alternatives with regard to its automotive fuel cell assets due
to the lengthy projected timeline to commercialization and high cost of development. Ballard confirmed it is currently in negotiations with Daimler
and Ford Motor Company with regard to one of the options under consideration.
Daimler, which declined to comment, owns 18.7 percent of Ballard with another 11.2 percent controlled by U.S. carmaker Ford. Ballard commented that
there can be no assurance that the negotiations will be successful or, if they are successful, that definitive agreements will be reached. Ballard
does not intend to comment any further while negotiations are being conducted, but will provide an update on completion of negotiations
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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wornout
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I though the fuel cells that are being developed for home use, use something called a 'PEM'. which will extract the hydrogen from butane, propane,
diesel, gasoline, which ever is available?
This Space Available, E-Mail Me If Interested.
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Al G
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Let us hear from Honda...
Honda has claimed that its fuel cell powered car will be the first commercially available car ready for the road.
According to reports Honda will claim a world breakthrough at Nov¬ember's Los Angeles Motor Show when it unveils the first commercially available
hydrogen fuel cell car.
The four-seater car will be based on the FCX, and will be sold as a rival to the Mercedes S-Class, and cost around £50,000, Honda officials have said.
It is thought the zero-emission car will be able to convert around 60 per cent of its fuel into energy; approximately three times that of a petrol
vehicle and twice that of a hybrid, giving a 300-mile range on a full 171-litre tank.
The car will initially only be on sale in the US and Japan and will be limited to areas where hydrogen fuel is available.
However, the car manufacturer also plans to sell reformers that create the volatile liquid from domestic gas.
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Al G
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| Quote: | Originally posted by wornout
I though the fuel cells that are being developed for home use, use something called a 'PEM'. which will extract the hydrogen from butane, propane,
diesel, gasoline, which ever is available? |
Correct...I will try to find the report
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Al G
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Cannot find the one on the new home generation yet....how about a lighthouse:
Fuel cells power lighthouses
Lighthouses situated in remote areas of the world can now be powered by fuel cell technology, it has been reported.
The New Scientist has revealed that lighthouses in difficult-to-access locations can now being powered by fuel cells because they are more easily
transportable and are reliable power sources.
A consortium, led by the Centre for Process Industries (CPI) of Wilton, Teesside, has installed a fuel cell at the South Gare lighthouse at Redcar on
England's North Sea coast.
The lighthouse had previously been supplied by a mains power cable but was prone to outages because the cable could easily be damaged by the strong
winds and powerful seas that batter the area.
However, CPI has proofed the fuel cell against the salty air and is now using the technology to ensure the lighthouse is reliable.
The organisation has also developed an innovative water-based cooling system for the fuel cell to ensure it does not overheat
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Al G
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Have not found what I am looking for...Here is Toyota for now
Toyota Motor Sales USA is to make a "major" announcement concerning the company's development of fuel cell technology at the Los Angeles Auto Show, it
has been reported.
The show, which will this year run from November 16th through to November 25th, is already scheduled to host the launch of Honda's commercial fuel
cell vehicle.
According to Auto Industry, Toyota is to muscle in on the attention being afforded to Honda's fuel cell technology by releasing details of its own
efforts.
Last month, it was announced that Toyota's improved fuel cell hydrogen vehicle (FCHV) had covered 350 miles on a single tank of hydrogen on its way
from Osaka to Tokyo.
According to the firm, a new tank and a high performance fuel cell stack mean that the FCHV has a potential single-fuelling range of around 466 miles
- making it 25 per cent more efficient than previous versions.
Hyundai Motor Company and General Motors Corporation have also made statements recently on their fuel cell technological progress.
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Al G
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More from Texas expo
The third and final day of the 2007 Fuel Cell Seminar and Expo got underway with two fascinating tracks
– residential scale fuel cell applications (read more about it in the Full Seminar report, coming soon) and
government incentive programmes, something which is of great interest to me as I put together Fuel
Cell Today’s second Quarterly Legislation Review. After talks on the Southern Fuel Cell Coalition
demonstration project, and demonstration projects in Connecticut and California, an introduction was
given to the ‘Fuel Cell State’ by Jennifer Gangi from Fuel Cells 2000. A range of policies and initiatives
are currently underway on hydrogen and fuel cells at state level in the USA. Fuel Cells 2000 has put
together a database covering these state fuel cell and hydrogen policies and demonstration projects,
which is freely available as a tool to government, policymakers and the public. Currently 47 states plus
the District of Columbia have some activity in the hydrogen and fuel cell arena and the database aims to
provide support for industry as well as educating decision makers and the public on the wide range of
activities currently ongoing. State champions in particular areas of fuel cells include Ohio and South
Carolina for fuel cell research, California for vehicles and infrastructure, New York for stationary FCs, and
Connecticut for the fuel cell industry. The Federal government has committed $1.2 billion over 5 years
to fuel cells, plus certain states have additional hydrogen and fuel cell funds (including $103m in Ohio,
$6m in California and $11m in Connecticut). Fuel cells could mean future good business opportunities
for states, and 15 states currently offer tax incentives for fuel cells and for fuel cell companies to locate
in their state. State activity appears to be moving the industry forward by laying the groundwork for
future widespread fuel cell adoption –including addressing codes and standards, co-operating with
utility authorities and zoning of both stationary fuel cells and hydrogen infrastructure for transport.
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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Al G
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This one could apply to Loreto..
Still not what I am looking for, but maybe Loreto bay could use this:
Aki-San of the National Institute of Advanced Science and Technology (AIST), Japan, once again highlighted how far ahead of
the rest of the world Japan is in terms of residential fuel cell development and planning. AIST, in cooperation with Osaka Gas
and KRI, are working on integrating PEM and SOFC units, either as a hybrid mix of the two (a world fi rst?) or PEM stand alone
as mini-grids serving an apartment block or a number of homes. The 1kW units are operated in a system where they run in
series providing electricity and hot water to a number of residences and can be added to in a modular fashion as and when
needed. Interestingly this idea was extended to linking up a hydrogen grid in much the same modular fashion. Whilst the idea
is someway from being practical in the houses concepts tests have shown that it is close to being feasible now in apartment
buildings. Tests are currently underway in Osaka using this concept to provide around 70% of electricity and most of the hot
water of the apartments. Reductions in CO2 levels have also been recorded from this test with nearly 10% primary energy
reduction over the test period to date.
All for tonight...
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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MrBillM
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Impressive PR.
The question, however, was NOT whether or not The Governments and Industries are Working at bringing Hydrogen Fuel Cell Technology to
market, but rather how close the technology is to being produced at an economically viable cost.
I have seen NOTHING to indicate positive evidence that such is the case.
This reminds me of a Discovery Channel segment I watched last night regarding Manned-Missions to Mars. There are Government Consortiums worldwide
that are spending huge amounts of money in research to plan and build equipment for such a mission, but there are (so far) insurmountable (with
current technology) obstacles to such a venture.
Regardless of the technology involved and the progress in developing the vehicles, the method of producing the Hydrogen at an effective competitive
cost stands out as one of the major impediments.
Will all the questions be resolved ? Maybe, but only the youngest among us will see marketable product. And that's not a sure bet.
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Al G
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In 1986 I began touting The commandor amiga 1000 as the future of man way of communnication...so in that sense you are right. Indeed it was 10-12
years before it was apparent that I was right. After that, the explosion that occurred was mind boggling.
We are at $100 oil and the top is not clear. You spoke of a trillion dollars...at todays standards that does not seem that much, if the world need is
there...
True some of us will not see Fuel cell use, at a level we use oil today, but I feel for sure the 60 year olds will.
It dose not hurt anyone to be positive...Albert
Albert G
Remember, if you haven\'t got a smile on your face and laughter in your heart, then you are just a sour old fart!....
The most precious thing we have is life, yet it has absolutely no trade-in value.
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MrBillM
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Positive, but Realistic
We'll see (given enough lifespan) who is right.
I'll be waiting.
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