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fulano
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Mexico: some talk about a Failed State
http://www.isria.info/3/journal_2008_05_23_1.htm
"05/23/2008 A BBC report announced that a week ago, Mexico's top policeman, Edgar Millan, was shot dead outside his home in Mexico City. It is the
equivalent of killing the head of the Metropolitan Police in London, or the director of the FBI in the US. Two other senior officers were then killed
in the space of two days, the murders blamed on Mexico's powerful drug gangs.
A growing number of analysts believe the current situation of state of war between the Mexican authorities and drug cartels may turn Mexico into a
failed state; a term intended to mean a weak state in which the central government has little practical control over much of its territory. Calls on
the US Department of State to review the current travel advice about Mexico have multiplied. "Soon, that won't be safer to visit Mexico than any other
failed states like Somalia" a Texas-based analyst told. Even comparison with Iraq has been drawn by media like Fox News which an editorialist recently
wrote that "Mexico has virtually ceded a vast chunk of its sovereign territory to criminal gangs, watched its own officers of law and order hunted
down and killed and seems unable to defend itself. Even the Maliki government in Iraq has finally decided to fight back against the illegal gangs of
gunmen that threaten its very existence."
"We are shocked by the escalating violence against Mexican law enforcement officials. The recent murders of three high-level police officials by
criminal syndicates and drug trafficking cartels are a brutal reaction to President Calderon's determination to fight organized crime. They illustrate
the serious threat these organizations pose to democratic institutions in Mexico. We offer our condolences and heartfelt sorrow to the families and
colleagues of these courageous Mexicans. Mexico is resolved in this fight against organized crime, has our full and immediate support. Violence and
drug trafficking are shared problems and we have shared a responsibility to confront them" US State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said in a
statement on May 12, 2008.
The US Department of State issued an updated travel alert on April 14, 2008 that says "Recent Mexican army and police force conflicts with
heavily-armed narcotics cartels have escalated to levels equivalent to military small-unit combat and have included use of machine guns and
fragmentation grenades. Confrontations have taken place in numerous towns and cities in northern Mexico, including Tijuana in the Mexican state of
Baja California, and Chihuahua City and Ciudad Juarez in the state of Chihuahua (...) Criminals are armed with a wide array of sophisticated weapons.
In some cases, assailants have worn full or partial police or military uniforms and have used vehicles that resemble police vehicles." According to
VOA, "Mexican President Felipe Calderon continues his fight against powerful drug cartels as the death count mounts. More than 1,300 people have died
this year in Mexico in violence connected to the illicit drug trade. In recent weeks some high-ranking police officials have been targets of drug
gangs, leading some analysts to wonder whether the Mexican government or the criminal gangs will win the fight."
The Federation, a recently-formed alliance of drug cartels, is waging a sophisticated war against Mexican authorities, police and military which are
said to hold no comparison with better trained cartels which billions of dollars they earned for years provide them with cutting edge military
equipments. The situation in Mexico has been so serious for years that as soon as early 2000s, it raised concerns that Mexican cartels' activities
would spill over the US southern border. In 2005, a team of rogue Mexican commandos blamed for dozens of killings along the U.S.-Mexico border has
carried out at least three drug-related slayings in Dallas (TX), a sign that the group was extending its deadly operations into U.S. cities. Main
activities of the cartels that operate in Mexico and the US Southern Border Region are: drug trafficking; border violence; firearms trafficking; alien
and terrorist smuggling."
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pargo
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Fulano de etal
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Iflyfish
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Lo siento mucho
Iflyfishattimeswithaheavyheartamigos
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Barry A.
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Personally I take these "reports" very seriously, and it makes me furious. Without the help of the civilian population (now that lawlessness is
nearly out of control) it will be extremely difficult to reverse the trend in Mexico, and it WILL spill over into the USA, in my opinion, and already
is.
Many will continue to "wag their fingers" decrying these reports as "exageration" and "fear mongering", but I feel strongly that they are wrong. This
is a very serious problem that has been "allowed" to develop by the people of Mexico, and many in the USA, who choose to look the other way, and
undermine the "rule of law" which is the glue that holds any society together. The "users" of drugs, tho mainly to blame, are not going away, and
obviously are hopelessly involved in the problem, in my opinion---------it is up to the general sober public to take a stand against the thugs, in any
way that they can.
We had all better "wake up" and assist and support the putting-down of these rogues and parasites, each of us in any way that we can, even if that
"way" is only in our attitude and support. 
Barry
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flyfishinPam
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Mexico should legalize all recreatioinal drugs and do what is best for Mexico, not what the big country up north tells it to do. Remove the profit
incentive and the cartels will implode. Mexico cannot control this problem as it exists today and thus is out of control, and this is the epitomy of
a failed state.
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fulano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Mexico should legalize all recreatioinal drugs and do what is best for Mexico, not what the big country up north tells it to do. Remove the profit
incentive and the cartels will implode. Mexico cannot control this problem as it exists today and thus is out of control, and this is the epitomy of
a failed state. |
Well, I hate to tell you this, but Mexico legalized possession of small quantities of marijuana, ecstasy, cocaine and heroin for personal use 2 years
ago.
Things have only gotten worse since.
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oldlady
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While it is legals to posess small quanitities of those substances, I believe it is illegal to sell any of them. Doesn't that contribute to making
the problem worse? In essence, those that would not buy before for fear of not wanting to be caught for possession will now enter the market. The
market becomes bigger and more lucrative and then the competition for the consumers becomes more intense.
On the other hand, if both sides of the transaction are legal.....
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Barry A.
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FlyFishingPam said,
"Mexico should legalize all recreatioinal drugs---------"
"recreational drugs" ????????? Interesting "take" on illegal drugs----------recreational???????----------why would ANYBODY take DRUGS for
"recreational" purposes is way beyond me. Just look at the evidence-------what ARE these folks thinking??? Drug use is now "recreational"???
I guess I can comprehend "getting high" because it makes one "feel good", but taking drugs as "recreation"------no, that is a step too far, IMO.
def. of "recreation"= refreshment in body or mind, as after work, by some form of play---------taking drugs is "play"???
Barry
[Edited on 5-24-2008 by Barry A.]
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mtgoat666
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
FlyFishingPam said,
"Mexico should legalize all recreatioinal drugs---------"
"recreational drugs" ????????? Interesting "take" on illegal drugs----------recreational???????----------why would ANYBODY take DRUGS for
"recreational" purposes is way beyond me. Just look at the evidence-------what ARE these folks thinking??? Drug use is now "recreational"???
I guess I can comprehend "getting high" because it makes one "feel good", but taking drugs as "recreation"------no, that is a step too far, IMO.
def. of "recreation"= refreshment in body or mind, as after work, by some form of play---------taking drugs is "play"???
Barry
[Edited on 5-24-2008 by Barry A.] |
Do you understand that alcohol and tobacco are drugs used for recreation? Pot, coke and alcohol and tobacco are all the same. Correct that, pot is
actually much better high than alcohol and tobacco.
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Cypress
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flyfishinPam, Makes sense. Unfortunately sense is in short supply now days.
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Barry A.
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MtGoat----------No, I don't understand that, and perhaps that is part of the (my??) problem.
By definition I don't believe that all those things are "recreational", but what do I know------they are addictive, I thought. Recreation is supposed to be fun, not addictive and harmful, at least in my mind.
-----but assuming you (and others??) are correct, legalizing them all is going to make everything ok??
Wow, wish I had thought of that. 
Problem solved, thank God.
Barry
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by flyfishinPam
Mexico should legalize all recreatioinal drugs and do what is best for Mexico, not what the big country up north tells it to do. Remove the profit
incentive and the cartels will implode. Mexico cannot control this problem as it exists today and thus is out of control, and this is the epitomy of
a failed state. |
Yes! "Remove the profit incentive" is the key.
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toneart
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Barry A.
FlyFishingPam said,
"Mexico should legalize all recreatioinal drugs---------"
"recreational drugs" ????????? Interesting "take" on illegal drugs----------recreational???????----------why would ANYBODY take DRUGS for
"recreational" purposes is way beyond me. Just look at the evidence-------what ARE these folks thinking??? Drug use is now "recreational"???
I guess I can comprehend "getting high" because it makes one "feel good", but taking drugs as "recreation"------no, that is a step too far, IMO.
def. of "recreation"= refreshment in body or mind, as after work, by some form of play---------taking drugs is "play"???
Barry
[Edited on 5-24-2008 by Barry A.] |
Barry,
"Recreational drugs" is a term that is not new. It has been around for decades. I can understand how the concept disturbs you, but try not to get
upset with the semantics. 
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Cypress
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Isn't alcohol a drug? It's legal.
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Iflyfish
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This is a very serious matter indeed. If you carefully read up on the history of the "War on Drugs" you will find that it is not based upon science
but upon a political decision made at the end of Nixon/Agnew’s first term as a way to mobilize the vote. Remember the "Silent Majority" which was a
code word for those who were not "Counter Culture". The reaction to the Vietnam War and disturbance in the streets of the USofA and France, and for
that matter around the world, created a lot of FEAR which was harnessed politically to secure a second term for Nixon/Agnew. Congress was poised to
legalize Marijuana at the time, but since then who could advocate for legalizing that which we have a "war" on? It is like the third rail in politics,
who would dare do away with Social Security?
There is no neat and tidy solution for this problem. There is one reality and that is that drug use will not go away. Drug use is a part of human
history and experience. Tobacco, Marijuana and Cocaine have been found in the royal mummies of Egypt. Beer is one of mankind’s oldest foods. Who are
we trying to kid? We are not going to stop drug use.
There is a huge vested interest in the "War on Drugs", it is a multibillion dollar enterprise that supports vast numbers of people. Its lobby effort
in Washington is right up there with Pharmaceuticals, Tobacco, Alcohol and Fire Arms. This is BIG BUSINESS. What is happening is a turf war created by
the serious attempts of the Mexican Government to seriously confront the Drug Cartels. This has created vacuums that are the current source of the
Drug War. However, now this has gotten out of hand and the real question is whether or not the Mexican Army is outgunned in this Gorilla war? The
possibility of Mexico becoming a failed state is real and not just rhetoric. So the solution, a “War on Drugs” is having the unanticipated consequence
of making things worse.
Taking the profit out of the trade is the only realistic way to stop it. Legalization and government control of the product is the only way to take
the Cartels out of the business. The government used to control it in the old PRI days with a wink, a nod and pay off. The tacit agreements, “don’t
mess with tourism, stay underground, pay us a proper amount and you can do your thing”. Fox changed all that with a serious effort to eradicate the
drugs/Cartels and to some extend succeeded to the point of creating vacuums and nature abhors a vacuum. The current President of Mexico, like Fox,
highly Americanized, is following suit in a lock step with the USofA Administration’s “War on Drugs”. The Mexican Government has received a great deal
of pressure from its neighbor to the north to follow these policies, and to their own detriment. These policies do not work in the USofA and they are
not working in Latin America either.
Let us hope that a new paradigm will emerge in a new administration in the USofA that will take a more enlightened and nuanced view of these things.
Iflyfish
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Barry A.
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Fish----
Most of what you say here is historically true, (I think) and I appreciate your insight here. As a Conservative I am somewhat disappointed in your
political references which may be opinion rather than fact, and I believe that detracts from your credibility, but still you have covered many of the
pertinant facts, and your take may be the generally right one.
Obviously what we are doing, and have been doing, is not really working except that it keeps a lot of we Law Enforcement types really busy, and of
course we think we are having a positive affect--------perhaps that is a myth, but that is what most of us think, anyway.
You are probably right in that we need to take a different tact, but I don't think that legalization will solve the problem completely, but it may be
better than what we are doing, and it will increase income to the US Treasury if taxed-----I really don't have any idea, especially since I have been
"out of it" for some 12 years now.
We need to do something different------on that I will agree with you. If the "ideas" would be couched in non-political rhetoric I think we could make
much more progress. The references and blame just make many of us dig our heals in, and we get no-where, I am thinking.
NOW is the time to put politics aside and try something different. What a mess it is now.
Barry
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toneart
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A very astute observation, Iflyfish!
Unfortunately, I think your observations and excellent articulation will draw the wrath of those who are addicted to anything with the word
war attached. As a political tool, wars haven't been going so well lately, except to perpetrate fear.
Having said that, there is much to fear; Mexico is vulnerable to becoming a "failed state". The "drug war" causes more antithetical consequences and
destruction that the drugs themselves , and I am by no means condoning drug use or sales. Let us not forget, the cartels are still the real bad guys.
Alas, as you point out, the political and economic infrastructure drives ahead, carrying more pathos than ethos. 
Barry's post got in there between ours. Barry, we have had this conversation in the past. I understand your viewpoint and respect it. However, it is
political and tends to cause people to walk ten paces in opposite directions and draw.
[Edited on 5-25-2008 by toneart]
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Barry A.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by toneart
A very astute observation, Iflyfish!
Unfortunately, I think your observations and excellent articulation will draw the wrath of those who are addicted to anything with the word
war attached. As a political tool, wars haven't been going so well lately, except to perpetrate fear.
Having said that, there is much to fear; Mexico is vulnerable to becoming a "failed state". The "drug war" causes more antithetical consequences and
destruction that the drugs themselves , and I am by no means condoning drug use or sales. Let us not forget, the cartels are still the real bad guys.
Alas, as you point out, the political and economic infrastructure drives ahead, carrying more pathos than ethos.
Barry's post got in there between ours. Barry, we have had this conversation in the past. I understand your viewpoint and respect it. However, it is
political and tends to cause people to walk ten paces in opposite directions and draw.
[Edited on 5-25-2008 by toneart] |
Tone----You are right, of course, but I submit that is what is causing us to not get anything done--------all these shootouts get us nowhere, and
gives rise to unproductive emotions----me included.
Barry
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Barry A.
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The whole concept of using drugs (all drugs) "recreationally" i.e. "for fun" is what upsets me, not the semantics. To me this smacks of personal
irresponsibility, due mainly to the the harm and anxiety that it causes those who know and love us, not to mention illegalities of it. Somewhere
along the line society decided that drug use/abuse in general was not good, and those that continue to "use" in spite of the law seem to me to be
selfish, and acting irresponsibly. If we legalize it, then what message are we sending?
Ok, I know that we (all ?) do things like this, but do we have to actually appear to endorse it, and act like it is a "normal and good thing to do"??
because to me it appears that we actually do approve, and therefore encourage, others including kids to participate. Where does it end----------?
OK, I am preaching now-----------
Enough.
Barry
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fulano
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Iflyfish
Drug use is a part of human history and experience. Tobacco, Marijuana and Cocaine have been found in the royal mummies of Egypt.
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You are mixing up your data. Those ancient drugs were used as analgesics by ancient doctors. They were not "recreational" drugs used to get high. The
refined form of opium, morphine, is still used as an analgesic.
You have conveniently ignored my post that told you that Mexico decriminalized possession of small quantities of illegal drugs two years ago, to no
effect, and continue to bang the drum about legalizing drugs to solve the drug problem.
Your supporters have also totally ignored that fact that your great experiment was tried in the past, and failed. Up until the early 1900's, heroin,
opium and marijuana were legal. There were twice the number of people, per capita, addicted to opium and heroin then than there are now that they are
illegal.
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