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Author: Subject: Mexico: some talk about a Failed State
Woooosh
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[*] posted on 5-26-2008 at 06:41 PM


In my own mixed Mexican-American family the "greener on the other side" appeal of the USA is slowly wearing off. Part is social, part is economic. I have four sisters-in law who live legally/illegally with their families in the USA. 2 have become US citizens and the other two don't even speak english (after 17 years there). All of the kids are US born citizens of course. Some of their kids are honors students and some are a total embarassmments- all due to parenting skill level, not lack of opportunity- IMHO. Some of my neices/nephews came back to Mexico because they didn't like being made to feel poor or ignorant in the USA, back in Mexico they are solid middle-class and proud- good for them.

I also have one 19 year old nephew who gives me hope for Mexico. He is going to University, works hard and respects his family. His friends are all the same. They aren't interested in what the USA offers although they love the video games, TV and technology. They are learning Mandarin because they see Asia as an opportunity for Mexico. I just hope there's a few hundred thousand more like him out there. Mexico could use some educated capitalists.
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jorgie
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[*] posted on 5-26-2008 at 06:42 PM


Liss is good reading, much is covered. Except the end user. Where/when do we stop the end user and end the market ? Strange when people are users yet looked upon as celebs.........slapped on the wrist and covered by the pink press. If there is no market and where is that market, what happens to the trade?
Yup, there is corruption but corruption always has a market.
I wonder where the stones should be cast..................
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DENNIS
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[*] posted on 5-26-2008 at 06:52 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
They are learning Mandarin because they see Asia as an opportunity for Mexico.


Although inappropriate today, a saying in the 60s was, "An optomist learns Russian. A pessimist learns Chinese."
It was a different time.
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rts551
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[*] posted on 5-26-2008 at 07:03 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
In my own mixed Mexican-American family the "greener on the other side" appeal of the USA is slowly wearing off. Part is social, part is economic. I have four sisters-in law who live legally/illegally with their families in the USA. 2 have become US citizens and the other two don't even speak english (after 17 years there). All of the kids are US born citizens of course. Some of their kids are honors students and some are a total embarassmments- all due to parenting skill level, not lack of opportunity- IMHO. Some of my neices/nephews came back to Mexico because they didn't like being made to feel poor or ignorant in the USA, back in Mexico they are solid middle-class and proud- good for them.

I also have one 19 year old nephew who gives me hope for Mexico. He is going to University, works hard and respects his family. His friends are all the same. They aren't interested in what the USA offers although they love the video games, TV and technology. They are learning Mandarin because they see Asia as an opportunity for Mexico. I just hope there's a few hundred thousand more like him out there. Mexico could use some educated capitalists.


geeze woosh what's your point.. Maybe something is failing in the North?
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DENNIS
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[*] posted on 5-26-2008 at 07:09 PM


That is some pretty sick ****, Grover. gosh darnn...What a ****** up world.

[Edited on 6-4-2008 by Hose A]
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jorgie
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[*] posted on 5-26-2008 at 07:14 PM


calm down Dennis I'll yarn it with you over a Tecate at the Osterio[sic] beach resort in october....................
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Woooosh
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[*] posted on 5-26-2008 at 07:49 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
In my own mixed Mexican-American family the "greener on the other side" appeal of the USA is slowly wearing off. Part is social, part is economic. I have four sisters-in law who live legally/illegally with their families in the USA. 2 have become US citizens and the other two don't even speak english (after 17 years there). All of the kids are US born citizens of course. Some of their kids are honors students and some are a total embarassmments- all due to parenting skill level, not lack of opportunity- IMHO. Some of my neices/nephews came back to Mexico because they didn't like being made to feel poor or ignorant in the USA, back in Mexico they are solid middle-class and proud- good for them.

I also have one 19 year old nephew who gives me hope for Mexico. He is going to University, works hard and respects his family. His friends are all the same. They aren't interested in what the USA offers although they love the video games, TV and technology. They are learning Mandarin because they see Asia as an opportunity for Mexico. I just hope there's a few hundred thousand more like him out there. Mexico could use some educated capitalists.


geeze woosh what's your point.. Maybe something is failing in the North?


My point is- Millions of the last two generations of Mexicans went to the USA and worked simple jobs illegally at first. They raised families of US citizens who may or may not find themselves better off- for many reasons (economic, political, social). Instead of fighting for what's right for Mexico- they wait for an amnesty that's not coming and press for rights and priveleges they aren't entitled to. These are the same people who need to be present back in Mexico for positive social change to happen.

The next generation of Mexican young are more hopeful for their country and is staying put in Mexico using capitalist models for success fueled by better education and technology. They know Mexico is stuck on stupid. They also see business opportunities in that.

It won't get them out of the current narco-mess though.

[Edited on 5-27-2008 by Woooosh]
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jorgie
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[*] posted on 5-26-2008 at 07:55 PM


stupid is as stupid does.
Dennis, OK, it's on ......
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[*] posted on 5-27-2008 at 04:51 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by jorgie
stupid is as stupid does.
Dennis, OK, it's on ......



No Way. Adiós. I don't like the "stupid" reference.
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CaboRon
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[*] posted on 6-3-2008 at 08:45 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by jorgie
Liss is good reading, much is covered. Except the end user. Where/when do we stop the end user and end the market ? Strange when people are users yet looked upon as celebs.........slapped on the wrist and covered by the pink press. If there is no market and where is that market, what happens to the trade?
Yup, there is corruption but corruption always has a market.
I wonder where the stones should be cast..................


The end user can never be stopped ...

All through history this is true, and your judgement will not change a thing, only create more pain and suffering.

People who live in glass houses (and we all live in glass houses because we are human) , should be carefull about the judgement making and the stone throwing . Leave that for God.

CaboRon




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Barry A.
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[*] posted on 6-4-2008 at 08:17 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
Quote:
Originally posted by jorgie




People who live in glass houses (and we all live in glass houses because we are human) , should be carefull about the judgement making and the stone throwing . Leave that for God.

CaboRon


CaboRon-----I beg to differ-------we don't ALL live in "glass houses". Many of us have nothing to hide, and simply don't understand the lack of disapline in some others. Yes, we have temptations and feelings that are perhaps not accepted by general society, but many of us don't act on them because we understand the mutual responsibility we have to each other to maintain a civilized society. Most of us know what is "right" and what is "wrong", and we do "right", at least most of the time (some all the time).

There are consequences for those that do "wrong", and THAT is the way it is, and always has been. They bring the "pain and suffering" on themselves.

barry
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[*] posted on 6-4-2008 at 08:52 AM


The glass house metaphor has always bothered me. The judgement of societal members, human or animal, at the individual level or the group level seems to be essential to a level of societal order; necessary to avoid chaos. While I agree with the need to be careful in our judgement, I think letting our own foibles be the guide leads to abdication and that doesn't make sense......at least to me.
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CaboRon
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[*] posted on 6-4-2008 at 08:54 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
Quote:
Originally posted by jorgie




People who live in glass houses (and we all live in glass houses because we are human) , should be carefull about the judgement making and the stone throwing . Leave that for God.

CaboRon


CaboRon-----I beg to differ-------we don't ALL live in "glass houses". Many of us have nothing to hide, and simply don't understand the lack of disapline in some others. Yes, we have temptations and feelings that are perhaps not accepted by general society, but many of us don't act on them because we understand the mutual responsibility we have to each other to maintain a civilized society. Most of us know what is "right" and what is "wrong", and we do "right", at least most of the time (some all the time).

There are consequences for those that do "wrong", and THAT is the way it is, and always has been. They bring the "pain and suffering" on themselves.

barry


Barry A,
I bow to you who walk in purity in this life ... Just remember, Judgement is not for mortals to make, and many of the things you judge to be "wrong" are merely the result of dogma and self righteousness.
I bow to you , oh holy one :saint:

I am pleased not to carry your load :tumble:

CaboRon :coolup:




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Barry A.
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[*] posted on 6-4-2008 at 09:43 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by CaboRon
Quote:
Originally posted by jorgie




People who live in glass houses (and we all live in glass houses because we are human) , should be carefull about the judgement making and the stone throwing . Leave that for God.

CaboRon


CaboRon-----I beg to differ-------we don't ALL live in "glass houses". Many of us have nothing to hide, and simply don't understand the lack of disapline in some others. Yes, we have temptations and feelings that are perhaps not accepted by general society, but many of us don't act on them because we understand the mutual responsibility we have to each other to maintain a civilized society. Most of us know what is "right" and what is "wrong", and we do "right", at least most of the time (some all the time).

There are consequences for those that do "wrong", and THAT is the way it is, and always has been. They bring the "pain and suffering" on themselves.

barry


Barry A,
I bow to you who walk in purity in this life ... Just remember, Judgement is not for mortals to make, and many of the things you judge to be "wrong" are merely the result of dogma and self righteousness.
I bow to you , oh holy one :saint:

I am pleased not to carry your load :tumble:

CaboRon :coolup:


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

--------"judgement is not for us to make"???? Society makes "judgements" all the time, via the courts and legislature. That is what civilized societies DO--------what you appear to be championing is anarchy, it seems to me.

As far as I know, I carry no "load"--------to be any other way WOULD be a huge load for me to bear. :P (and yes, I too make mistakes, and accept the consequences)

Barry
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toneart
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[*] posted on 6-4-2008 at 11:48 AM


People Who Live In Glass Houses Should Not Throw Stones ( don't criticize other people when you yourself have faults and weaknesses ... )
"people who live in glass houses should not throw stones"

"People who live in glass houses should not throw stones" reminds us that we should be careful how we treat other people (with our words and actions) because we can all be easily hurt. People "throw stones" at other people to try to hurt them, and one way that people try to hurt other people is by saying bad things about them. If you lived in a "glass house" it would be very easy for other people to hurt you by throwing stones at you. "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones" means that we should not say insulting things to other people because they could easily do the same thing to us. Example: "Look at that shirt you are wearing! Did you buy that back in the '80s?!" Answer: "Hey, you're not so young yourself; people who live in glass houses should not throw stones!" Something made of glass can easily break; it is vulnerable; and we are all vulnerable in different ways. Sometimes we forget our own vulnerability and "throw stones" at other people in the form of criticism. A person might remind us that we too have our own faults and weakenesses by saying "people who live in glass houses should not throw stones". Example: "Look at what time it is... you are late again!" Answer: "Hey, how often are you not on time? People who live in glass houses should not throw stones."

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"we are all vulnerable in different ways"
(my observation-- Toneart




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Barry A.
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[*] posted on 6-4-2008 at 12:14 PM


All true, Tony.

Sometimes I just think we have become too complacent and tolerant of the "things" that others do that are hurtful to their fellow man, and especially those around them-------much of what others do is hurtful, even tho they may not realize it, and I just don't think we should accept that-------to do so is to, in a sense, encourage the bad behavior----------abusing drugs, alcohol, etc. is hurtful to a lot of people, and the structure of society in general---------too stand by and NOT be judgemental is too easy, and is not responsible, the way I see it. Obviously one has to be careful, and not lash out, tho, and in that sense I agree with what I perceive you and CaboRon are conveying.

Also, I have never believed that one should hold back their opinion simply because what they are saying may appear hypocritical to some (or to most???)----there are some things that are almost universally not acceptable, and occasionally we are ALL (most??) guilty of violating these taboos, but I still think that bad behavior should be held accountable by all. This type of hypocrasy bothers me not at all------what is right, is right!!! despite our own weaknesses and foibles.

On the other hand, we are all to unforgiving of our "leaders", and politicians-----they are simply humans, like us, presumably trying to do what is right in their political business. They should be criticized, and punished when they do wrong, but NOT just cast aside, it seems to me, unless they are truly guilty of criminal behavior.

Now I am mentally wandering-------------I suppose.

Barry
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