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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by surebought
My first thought is that the person concerned who posted this video. Are you also the holder of a separate parcel Federal Zone Concession? Or just a
third party concerned about the beach? You don't want to blow the whistle on yourself. Federal Zone property lines move around a lot at the
discretion of profepa. I don't think its corruption at all. It's just that they didn't send an inspector out there before they issued the
Concession. Now, they don't want to lose face. Most of these guys spend their life's energies trying to convince their superiors that they're not
incompetent. Sooner or later they end up at immigration. |
No. We applied for the concession when the ocean waters went over the seawall and touched our propety across the street. The neighbors all chipped
in the $11K to remove two old foundations and to do the concession paperwork. We are the only Mexican citizens with clear title- so we did it in our
name. A Mexican Citizen who holds clear title to land impacted directly by ocean waters is in first positon for a FMZ concession. Other people can
and certainly do apply for concessions (and then sell the land or do other profit-making schemes)- but if you happen to actually own the land the
water hits, you get first dibbs on a FMZ concession. At least that is my understanding.
So what trouble would we be in? Aside from the obvious. Everything is Mexican to Mexican and my FM3 is current 
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Sharksbaja
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"We are the only Mexican citizens..."
"...my FM3 is current"
Why does a Mexican National need an FM3?
[Edited on 12-13-2009 by Sharksbaja]
DON\'T SQUINT! Give yer eyes a break!
Try holding down [control] key and toggle the [+ and -] keys
Viva Mulege!
Nomads\' Sunsets
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surebought
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It accures to me that you might be Americans of Mexican decent from what you are saying. None of what I suggested applies - if this is the case. You
have to get your own Sindicato to look out for your interests en la Republica. Certain cultural advantages and and a few major disadvantages apply to
you and not to the 100% foreigners. But if this was happening me and it was that important, I would go over to the local profepa office(is it Tijuana
or Rosarito?) and make friends with the 3 or 4 Secrataries that run that office. They do all the work and know all the tricks and they know all the
the bad guys. And they will tell you all about it if your just nice to them(and speak perfect Spanish with a Gringo accent). You won't even have to
buy them Coffee, just remember their names. But it is not me that this problem is happening to - and if you tried this it might make things
worse. Did you open a can of worms? Time will tell. Keep us posted.
In a while the smile on my face turned to plaster.
Stick around while the clown who is sick, does the trick of disaster. Neil Young from Mr Soul.
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sharksbaja
"We are the only Mexican citizens..."
"...my FM3 is current"
Why does a Mexican National need an FM3?
[Edited on 12-13-2009 by Sharksbaja] |
How about being married to one All mixed couples around here. Gringos with
latinas that really know how to cook and keep a house. Huge families. Isn't that what all Gueros want in retirement?
The wife has dual citizensip and I have the FM3. Don't most couples talk about themsleves in plural- like "we?"
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by surebought
It accures to me that you might be Americans of Mexican decent from what you are saying. None of what I suggested applies - if this is the case. You
have to get your own Sindicato to look out for your interests en la Republica. Certain cultural advantages and and a few major disadvantages apply to
you and not to the 100% foreigners. But if this was happening me and it was that important, I would go over to the local profepa office(is it Tijuana
or Rosarito?) and make friends with the 3 or 4 Secrataries that run that office. They do all the work and know all the tricks and they know all the
the bad guys. And they will tell you all about it if your just nice to them(and speak perfect Spanish with a Gringo accent). You won't even have to
buy them Coffee, just remember their names. But it is not me that this problem is happening to - and if you tried this it might make things
worse. Did you open a can of worms? Time will tell. Keep us posted. |
Thanks- good points. Everyone over at the office was nice, very nice actually. We met them and chatted when we filed the "Duncia Ambiental". Very
nice- but three months and no action on that darned fence! The videos got us a PROFEPA inspection in six days. We knew the longer it took them to
act/decide- the less likely it would go in our favor.
The other part of why we wanted action was a local boogie-boarder kid applied, paid for, and was granted permission by SEMARNAT to rent umbrellas and
chairs on that very lot. He gave us photos of his chair/umbrella "set-ups" with the SEMARNAT application approval since we have the concession.
After every rainy season he would re-build a 10x20 foot "island" out of 100 huge flour-sacks of sand and paint them. Then he'd fill it and put
iceplant and whatever trees he could fine on top- usually Banana. We called it "gilligan's island". He would sit perched up there under an umbrella
watching the surf with his surfer-friends. He would rent umbrellas and chairs to tourists for whatever amount they wanted to give him and usually
made about 300 pesos on a good day. Sept/Oct are the absolute nicest beach weather months here- and it wasn't fair of those people to fence it off
and deprive him of that income. He complained to SEMARNAT for a refund of the annual fee and they said "no". I like to see kids like that take
intiative and work for their money. They helped with the video.
We'll see what happens after the second inspection tomorrow morning. We handed them the video on DVD Friday- so they have seen it too.
I don't think this area has been on their radar at all and we caught them flat-footed.
Thanks for all the U2U's.
It does look like PROFEPA can indeed act when it wants to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QePogrbAfnE
Where do I got those PROFEPA CLAUSURADO signs? I'm good on the duct tape.
[Edited on 12-14-2009 by Woooosh]
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Dave
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I'm having a hard time...
Following this story.
1. You applied for and got a concession in the federal zone. For how long?
2. Now someone else has an deed for the parcel... or is it a concession?
3. Was the property rezoned or is the deed fraudulent?
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
Following this story.
1. You applied for and got a concession in the federal zone. For how long?
2. Now someone else has an deed for the parcel... or is it a concession?
3. Was the property rezoned or is the deed fraudulent? |
1. The Title is good for 15 years. You pay the fee due each year at the Rosarito Palacio.We applied for and received a ZMF Concession Ambiental- to
protect the land. The application was submitted 06/2006 and we got the title in 06/2008. We had all but given up on it (seriously) when the people
from the Rosarito SEMARNAT office two streets over came to the house to ask us to come over and get it. (It's a binder full of sections actually)
2. We do not know what paperwork the other person has. We talked to his lawyer who said they had a title. (That conversation is a funny story unto
itself). They did not seem to know this lot was under water part of the year so we brought down some pics. One of those priceless moments for us.
3. He is not from the family ordered off the property a decade ago. I am speculating that since this only happens on lots where old foundations
exist- it is easier to resurrect and "old title" than to find a way to create one. The condo tower was built quickly (too quickly) on an old
foundation.
Seems to be a spot in the system where people at low level in the Palacio can manipulate the title. We think it is because previous owners stop
paying their property taxes on land they were ordered off of years ago. I would have. These sales are kept hush-hush with no "for sale" signs. One
day the fence appears with a "Private property" sign on it. The other house (broken foundation) is occupied by a squatter - who honestly thinks she
bought the legal title from another squatter who lived there before her.
thanks for the thinking points.
[Edited on 12-14-2009 by Woooosh]
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Woooosh
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Quick re-cap of today's PROFEPA inspection:
1- This was the inspection to generate a report from our "Denuncia Ambiental" complaint filed in September. This is the beginning of the process (the
first three months waiting for any action was ended only by the Video I suspect). We were hoping for answers and they were just beginning to ask
questions...
2- The two PROFEPA men Friday were the bosses, this guy today was the worker-bee who got to sit for two hours, check our papers and payments page by
page and write the reports long hand with carbon paper.
3- He verified our concession was current, in order and legal. He found an "error" on the SEMARNAT concession map though. They did not grant us the
full amount of land we had applied and were eligible for. He wrote a report for us to take to the local SEMARNAT office to have them correct their
error. This part I do not like.
4- He kept the photo of the ocean water coming over the seawall to touch our house and had us sign it. Not sure what they wanted a hard-copy. He did
show us the most recent FMZ line was 12 meters (about 39 feet) from the seawall. The building lots are 30 meters deep- so half the depth of the
fenced lot is on FMZ land and half is on the "Terrano Ganados". He said the photo evidence may move the FMZ line all the way to the seawall. No one
is supposed to build on either the FMZ or Terrano Ganados he said.
5- Now that the investigation is officially started- they will determine who has claimed ownership of the fenced area, and how they got the title.
They are very interested in this aspect- but had to wait to check our papers before investigating further.
6- We are NOT allowed to touch the fencing. He said the ocean will take it away. (I have a hard time understanding why PROFEPA would allow buried
barbed wire on the beach- I won't). With the instructions not to take it down, as the fence poles do fall into the water and lay flat on the beach I
am moving them and the attached wire back towards the seawall from the surf.
7- Sit and wait for the second video to keep them moving on this. Continue to document the saga on video.
(It has occurred to us that since profepa says the entire area is likely either FMZ or Terranos Ganados- why bother applying/renewing for the FMZ
concession at all? The only answer I have is that the lady who works in my local SEMARNAT office is the one everyone says sold the permit to build
that condo tower on the old foundation for $500. I don't want her to see any weakness among the neighbors to protect the beach.)
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Santiago
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Woooosh: I'm lost on the fencing thing but maybe fencing has greater meaning in Mexico:
1. You have a kind of Title to this land which you believe to be valid.
2. Someone else also claims title and puts up a sign and a fence.
3. What's the big deal about tearing the fence and sign down? Why is PROFEPA telling you not to tear it down - are they concerned for your personal
safety or is it a criminal action to tear it down.
4. Surely, as soon as the ocean knocks down the fence, you could then remove it under the rights that your title gives you per the ZMF Concession
Ambiental, your right to protect the land.
5. What's to stop you from putting up your own boundary markers with signs indicating your rights and allowing others to use the area for recreation
purposes? Wouldn't the other guy have to go complain to PROFEPA and wouldn't he then be warned not to tear down your 'fence'?
I don't get the fence stuff.
Does essence predate existence?
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Dave
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You can and most probably would...
| Quote: | Originally posted by Santiago
3. What's the big deal about tearing the fence and sign down? Why is PROFEPA telling you not to tear it down - are they concerned for your personal
safety or is it a criminal action to tear it down.
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Go to jail.
It's called "destruction of property". Even though it may be on your property it's his fence, bought and paid for. I
had a friend who spent three days in jail for this very reason.
As amazing as this might seem, I'm not making this crap up. 
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Woooosh
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Dave- I think you are right. EVERYONE wants at that fence- but the wife said it's a big no-no too. I'll just move the fence and wire back as the
sand releases the fence posts. I really hate what burried barbed wire in sand does to dogs and children.
Snr. Santiago- I don't get the fence thing either. Why did they even bother to fence it? Why broadcast bad intentions? Have they hired a
boat-builder yet? Only reason I can figure is to either show it off to friends (The guy and his lady friend posed for pics) or as a test to see if
anyone complains. If no one complains- they take over the whole area for their new marina. The PROFEPA wants to know how this is happening (twice
now in 100 meters and both on old foundations).
Either they are complicit in a title-scam land sale, are very stupid consumers or both. There was no "for sale" sign ever on it- so it was a private
deal.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Santiago
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by Santiago
3. What's the big deal about tearing the fence and sign down? Why is PROFEPA telling you not to tear it down - are they concerned for your personal
safety or is it a criminal action to tear it down.
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Go to jail.
It's called "destruction of property". Even though it may be on your property it's his fence, bought and paid for. I
had a friend who spent three days in jail for this very reason.
As amazing as this might seem, I'm not making this crap up.
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Yes you are. This can't be the way it works.
And what about the guy defacing your property with some crappy fence. How much jail time is that worth? What if the guy BUYS some garbage and then
PAYS for someone to dump it on your property - you're not allowed to clean it up and haul it off just because he paid for it?
No, I'm suspecting that a fence is a statement of ownership in some way and is possibly a required step in the process of proving ones claim, but I'm
just guessing here. I know nothing about Mexican Real Estate Law but I'm guessing that possession is a pretty big deal.
The road south of the town of Bahia de los Angeles has over the last few years seen fences and signs go up and go down. They're up now with someone
living in a trailer, wash hanging on the line, painted rocks and everything. Somebody is trying real hard to make it look like this is their land.
Does essence predate existence?
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Santiago
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by Santiago
3. What's the big deal about tearing the fence and sign down? Why is PROFEPA telling you not to tear it down - are they concerned for your personal
safety or is it a criminal action to tear it down.
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Go to jail.
It's called "destruction of property". Even though it may be on your property it's his fence, bought and paid for. I
had a friend who spent three days in jail for this very reason.
As amazing as this might seem, I'm not making this crap up.
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Yes you are. This can't be the way it works.
And what about the guy defacing your property with some crappy fence. How much jail time is that worth? What if the guy BUYS some garbage and then
PAYS for someone to dump it on your property - you're not allowed to clean it up and haul it off just because he paid for it?
No, I'm suspecting that a fence is a statement of ownership in some way and is possibly a required step in the process of proving ones claim, but I'm
just guessing here. I know nothing about Mexican Real Estate Law but I'm guessing that possession is a pretty big deal.
The road south of the town of Bahia de los Angeles has over the last few years seen fences and signs go up and go down. They're up now with someone
living in a trailer, wash hanging on the line, painted rocks and everything. Somebody is trying real hard to make it look like this is their land.
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We have squatters that live in the white house with the cracked foundation. She's remodelling the kitchen onher "retirement home" because foundation
work is too expesive she says. There is a legal process where squatters in Mexico can become the owners
But really- does this nice couple look like land thieves? 
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Santiago
Yes you are. This can't be the way it works.
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Until it's adjudicated you can't touch the fence. He put it up...he owns it. You'll go to jail if you try. Bet me. 
Woosh, I'm this guy is a bit of a gambler. Bought tainted property on the cheap and thinks he'll get away with it. I wouldn't know what to make of his
odds but seeing the Mercedes made me shorten them a bit.
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by Santiago
Yes you are. This can't be the way it works.
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Until it's adjudicated you can't touch the fence. He put it up...he owns it. You'll go to jail if you try. Bet me.
Woosh, I'm this guy is a bit of a gambler. Bought tainted property on the cheap and thinks he'll get away with it. I wouldn't know what to make of his
odds but seeing the Mercedes made me shorten them a bit. |
Yeah- I thought the odds might be stacked against us in the $$$ and influence department with the black Benz (and a Range Rover). She was camera shy
and bailed into the car and hid after the first picture. He either bought it cheap, is a "test" for a larger land grab, or traded it for someone.
That's why I didn't want to wait any longer for PROFEPA action and let the kids do the YouTube videos.
The underwater footage should decrease the interest in using it. We made them a co-victim in the video to save face. He and his lawyer both claim to
have a title and PROFEPA wants to know how that happened. How he acts next will show us what he is made of. So far he's not a do-it-yourself fence
person though. We really don't care who he is or how he got there- all we want is for him to build his princess her castle on higher ground.
Besides- none of this title stuff even matters- it's FMZ land and that maritime map overlay from Mexico City is king.
A lot Mexican companies and gov't agencies use the Youtube for their official videos- because it's fast, easy and free. We sent the link to dozens
of Mexican officials- they weren't afraid to open a YouTube link and watch.
We were passing out ice tea to the volunteers raking the beach today and they had seen themselves in the video. Lot's of support from them. The
YouTube link was has done us well so far.
We had been under the impression they had already been researching the fence issue the past two months. We were surprised this is official start of
the process. You know it's official when the carbon paper comes out.
[Edited on 12-15-2009 by Woooosh]
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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Dave
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
The underwater footage should decrease their interest in using it. |
Maybe he just wants someone to pay him to 'go away'.
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Woooosh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dave
| Quote: | Originally posted by Woooosh
The underwater footage should decrease their interest in using it. |
Maybe he just wants someone to pay him to 'go away'. |
Nah- He obviously has more money than brains. Not a common problem in Mexico.
Maybe he bought the resurrected title from someone he knew. Maybe now he wants his money back or for them to pay for his flood insurance. Maybe the
person who sold it doesn't have the money to give back. PROFEPA will be able to trace the title. I gave them the original 1975 Lot Plot map for the
fraccionamiento.
\"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing\"
1961- JFK to Canadian parliament (Edmund Burke)
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